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Cassel_Castle
United States820 Posts
My point was more that the point at which "just macro" stops working seems to be around platinum. Some opponents I can roll over, but now and then I'll face a plat player who is pretty good. e: and the OP seems to agree since map control and scouting etc. start in the plat video. | ||
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rythmatik
2 Posts
Yeah as above sometimes just macro wont work at plat diamond level if you engage poorly still. This is what I have run into a bit lately. But I am watching my replays seeing I am hitting the bench marks and following everything well even out macroing my opponents.When it comes to engaging though I just throw my army at him it does nothing. So have been focusing on looking at engagements and unit comp a bit more and am pulling out a few more wins ontop. I mean its simple things such as I wasnt sure how to handle infestors. I learnt i need to slow tank hop and not out position marines while at the same time double dropping. Also extra reactor starport to react to alot of collosi quickly and sending out a drop while baiting an engagement so I can hit his tech while I catch up with ghosts when he does templar switch. Storms arnt a problem when I take out the archives and he cant make them - meanwhile I pump out 4-8 ghosts ready for when he does. Great set of videos - thanks. Working well for me and following them strongly. | ||
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Sanyzoon
Germany4 Posts
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Kerm
France467 Posts
Great guide ! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26192 Posts
I found your videos and I have my solution. In addition they're of a better quality than anything I could have done, so I can go back to touching up my game, and my friends can learn to play with great advice. My friend has recently gone from an RTS, nay PC-gaming virgin, and is playing golds on ladder already and I can attribute that directly to your good self, cheers. | ||
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retrox
France4 Posts
Now onto the point. I'm a zerg player, so even if it is very tempting to switch to terran and follow this course and climb the ladder and feel awesome, I would prefer to stick with zergs and still benefit from all the useful information and learning techniques you put out there. So instead of waiting for some zerg demi-god to come by and enlighten us (well, me at least), I set out this morning to try and find a reasonable "macro" benchmark for zergs like me who struggle in the lower levels of the ladder. Here is how I proceeded: + Show Spoiler + 1/ I kept the 10 minute mark as a reference, and it turned out to be pretty good. 2/ I loaded a bunch of recent replays from high profile zerg players (Sheth, TLO and this Fuzzy guy (NA GM, playing with CoL academy IIRC) that posted recently a replay pack on TL). 17 replays in total, ladder maps only. 3/ I excluded ZvZ from this study. My limited understanding of the game makes me feel that this matchup is way too chaotic (in the mathematical sense, i.e. way too prone to wild variations based on tiny differences in the early stages of the game) to set a "macro" benchmark. I'll leave it to other fellow zergs to tackle the ZvZ benchmarks problem :p What I was looking for: + Show Spoiler + 1/ Mainly drone count and base count 2/ relative army strength. I understand this is somewhat situational, and zerg usually grow their army according to what their opponent is throwing at them, but I feel that it can give lower level players such as myself a kind of ballpark for the army strength to complement the pure (and somewhat abstract) drone count 3/relative tech development (upgrades, buildings, etc) What I found : + Show Spoiler + Even when opponents apply some early pressure (hellion pressure, void ray, small gate unit number poking...), replays tend to converge towards 2 types of situations around the 10 min mark. 1/ No real engagement happened yet. In this case zerg has/should have 65-70 drones on 3 bases, lair done, macro hatch done or on the way, few units/few static defense (obviously this is not done blindly, but because scouting/map control indicates the opponent is sitting on his ass, teching or whatever). 2/ Real engagements already started/starting (usually between 8 and 10 minutes), and in this case the zerg has 50-55 drones on 3 bases (sometimes 3rd is not done yet), lair should be on the way or finished, and some army to hold the incoming attacks, potentially some static defenses (again, not blindly, zerg cuts drones and starts army production as soon as a real threat is identified). Here are the actual numbers I noted for those replays: + Show Spoiler + notes : "almost done" means more that 3/4 done, "started" means less than 1/4 done, "unit on the way" means some units are hatching (don't be fooled by the production tab, the progress bar is the one of the unit clioest to completion (you could have 10 roaches in the making, 1 of them 2 seconds away from popping, and all the others 15 seconds away, but the production tab would display "10 roaches 2 seconds away")) The little ** mean that there have been somewhat significant casualties happened before. These replays were not played against bronze or easy AI, so some casualties are almost inevitable before the 10 min mark. Fuzzy - 10 minutes benchmark (replay pack : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=331841) 4 games 209 drones@ 10 min 52 drones@10 min / game + Show Spoiler + Daybreak ZvT 52 drones 30 lings 5 queens 3 bases 4 spines baneling nest done spire started +1 melee started Metalo ZvT **** 55 drones 21 lings** 4 queens 3 bases 3 bases 0 spine lair almost done macro hatch started +1 melee started Antiga ZvP 49 drones 26 lings** 14 roaches 3 queens 3 bases roach speed started +1 range weapon almost done Daybreak ZvP 53 drones 22 lings** 10 roaches** 4 queens macro hatch almost done roach speed started TLO - 10 minutes benchmark (replay pack: http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2012/04/12/razer-replaypack-of-the-week-30-tlo) 7 games 430 drones@ 10 min 61 drones@ 10 min/game + Show Spoiler + Korhal compound ZvP 52 drones 23 lings 11 roaches 3 queens 3 bases 3 spines 8 more drones on the way roach speed started +1 carapace started Antiga ZvP 72 drones 18 lings 3 roaches 3 queens 2 spores 3 bases 5 more roaches almost done lair almost done +1 carapace almost done +1 range attack started Cloud Kingdom ZvP 71 drones 8 lings 2 roaches 3 queens 1 spine 20 more lings almost done 2 more roaches started +1 melee started +1 carapace 1/3 complete macro hatch started infestation pit started Shakuras Plateau ZvP 69 drones 7 queens 3 spores 2 spines 9 roaches almost done +1 melee started +1 carapace 1/2 done overlord speed almost done roach speed 2/3 done infestation pit almost done Daybreak ZvP 56 drones 15 lings 4 queens 10 more drones on the way infestation pit started 2 spores started +1 carapace almost done Ohana ZvP 57 drones 18 lings 3 bases 3 queens 3 spores 2 spines +1 carapace done 7 more drones on the way lair almost done +1 ranged weapon 1/3 done Shakuras Plateau ZvT 53 drones 2 bases 43 lings 4 queens 3 spines baneling nest almost done macro hatch almost done 3rd base started +1 melee almost done overlord speed started infestation pit 1/2 done Sheth - 10 minutes benchmark (replay pack:http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2012/04/05/razer-replaypack-of-the-week-29-sheth) 6 games 355 drones@10 min 59 drones@10 min/game + Show Spoiler + Antiga ZvP 59 drones 28 lings** 3 queens 3 bases macro hatch 2/3 complete 2 roaches on the way 1 queen on the way +1 melee 1/2 done burrow started roach speed started Shakuras Plateau ZvT 70 drones 33 lings 3 queens 3 spines +1 melee almost done +1 carapace almost done 8 more drones on the way 4th base started lair almost done baneling nest done NO roach warren Antiga ZvT 60 drones 29 lings 4 queens 1 spine 2 base+ macro hatch 3rd base 1/2 complete spire almost done 36 lings started +1 melee 1/2 done +1 carapace 2/3 done baneling nest done NO roach warren Cloud Kingdom ZvP 62 drones 7 lings 8 roaches 4 queens 3 bases macro hatch 1/2 done +1 melee almost done ling speed almost done (!) roach speed almost done 13 more roaches on the way hydra den 1/2 done Antiga ZvT**** --> pressure hellion banshee --> 1000/300 in the bank +14 larvae 45 drones 2 bases 6 roaches 5 queens 2 spores 1 spine 1 spore started lair started +1 melee started +1 carapace started 3rd base almost done macro hatch almost done Antiga ZvP 59 drones (despite 6 drones lost) 39 lings (~ 10 lings lost) 4 queens 3 bases 4 spores 4 more drones on the way +1 ranged weapon almost done ling speed started (!!!) hydra den done + hydra range started Final thoughts : Anything below 50 drones @ 10 minutes seems not acceptable. 50-ish drones corresponds to a zerg that is being pressured/attacked and as a results has to spend larvae on units rather than drones. In lower leagues, it is not uncommon to be left pretty much alone for the whole early game stage (as shown in the bronze games video in the OP). In this case 65-70 drones on 3 bases sounds a reasonable goal, and tech tree opening up (lair done, starting infestation pit, upgrades on the way...) I opened a couple replays of mine and... I'm way off the bare minimum 50 drones mark! (more often 40-ish on 2 bases with a not-so-strong army) Back to practice! Please high-level zerg players, don't hesitate to comment/correct anything I got wrong  Hope this helps. | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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CookieMonsta02
United States37 Posts
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e2thex
United States1 Post
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tehmango28
3 Posts
I just wanted to say thank you to filter for these amazing guides as they have improved my play so much. I am a high plat player who is doing great vs Terran and Protoss. My problem is when I face zerg with this build. At the 10 minute mark when my agression begins I feel that they have good creep spread and a third that I have trouble punishing. Without the hellions I feel like I let the zerg expand as they please in the beginning. Is anyone else having these problems? What would you guys recommend? Thank you. | ||
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Ainvar
United States68 Posts
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Lavantis
4 Posts
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
On April 26 2012 11:54 tehmango28 wrote: Hello everyone. I just wanted to say thank you to filter for these amazing guides as they have improved my play so much. I am a high plat player who is doing great vs Terran and Protoss. My problem is when I face zerg with this build. At the 10 minute mark when my agression begins I feel that they have good creep spread and a third that I have trouble punishing. Without the hellions I feel like I let the zerg expand as they please in the beginning. Is anyone else having these problems? What would you guys recommend? Thank you. Check out the 12th episode, it shows some variations on the builds that I find much, much better against zerg. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
The problem is that from there you need to make a decision based on what you have seen to this point. I guess blink stalker is the 'safe' option, since it doesn't die outright to anything, but without decent blink micro you get run over. Honestly I think once a protoss can 4 gate they should switch to a robo opening and learn how to 'react' to different openings. The protoss 'counters' are so strong that often getting the right composition means more than pure army value. A great example is that an immortal is exactly equal to 2 stalkers, however an immortal is much better vs a roach push. If a protoss player can build the 'right' composition they can often '1A' their way to victory. | ||
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On April 26 2012 11:54 tehmango28 wrote: Hello everyone. I just wanted to say thank you to filter for these amazing guides as they have improved my play so much. I am a high plat player who is doing great vs Terran and Protoss. My problem is when I face zerg with this build. At the 10 minute mark when my agression begins I feel that they have good creep spread and a third that I have trouble punishing. Without the hellions I feel like I let the zerg expand as they please in the beginning. Is anyone else having these problems? What would you guys recommend? Thank you. Here's a diamond-level game I recently played where I let a zerg go 3 base before gas and 65 drones at 10:00. Despite that, I still beat him pretty easily without playing particularly well past the 10 minute mark. I had no business winning the game after letting him play so greedy, and I didn't do anything special after I realized what happened. Just siege up some tanks, use your medivacs, and play normally. The guy had a somewhat ridiculous 211 apm for diamond too. http://drop.sc/167634 | ||
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arjuna
United States2 Posts
If I may, I would like to make a few suggestions from the pov of a terrible player. This is in hopes of giving more specific nuts and bolts suggestions for developing bad players: For Practice: -start vs Medium AI. He will throw a modest attack at your front, which will help make sure you're on a decent pace with scv's and marines. of corse this doesn't help develop ladder skills, but it is the best starting point imo. -once you nail 46-50 scvs @ 10mins vs medium, move to hard AI. this will help you learn to deal with 7RR, 4gate or 2+Rax type aggressions. again, not the same as ladder, but you will be forced to remain calm and maintain the scvs/reens while resisting an attack, repairing the bunker and pulling from your xpo, which is a similar feeling to ladder. there is no way other than playing against humans to simulate drops, cannons and other nonsense. APM and "what you should be doing": -you say at the the start of one video something like "i'm just spamming here, it's what I do. you can do it if you want". i feel that when bad players watch pros from frist person, they hear the keyboard clicking (whole game) and get intimidated. they are told that spamming during the start of a game warms up your fingers and gets you used to having to click a lot later on. while this is true for pros, a person with low apm has nothing to warm up for, nor will their apm functionally increase from early game spamming. However, I feel like there is oppertunity to practice and get better during the early game when not much is going on. My suggestion: players can spam at the beging of the game so long as their focus in always on the CC. they can spam the rally point, bang on the S key or the CC hotkey, but they must always have the CC targeted, ready to make the next scv. once you start adding raxes and stuff, ALWAYS come back to your CC and stare at it until you make the next scv. all game long, if you have nothing else to do, stare at your CC, ready to make a scv. naturally as the game advances you will have so much to do that you'll only be staring at your CC for a second or 2, but the point is all that earlier staring will help you not miss scvs once the game gets cranked up. this will also help the development of functional apm, as it will grow your ability to do the "tap" Day9 teaches. Sorry if this is redundent of obvious for most players, but I am a shamless noob and feel that most beginers fear the reaction of the internets and won't post dumb or obvious sounding questions. Please keep doing more guides Filter, you're excellent at it and you will always have a greatful audience. Us nubs will endlessly scour the internet for every piece of advice, hoping that next video will unlock our inner MKPs and TLOs XXooXOOXoXOoxoOXOoXOOoXOOoooxooOXoXXXXxxxx | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
Registed just to say that | ||
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denten
Netherlands10 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Demerzel
23 Posts
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