Hi, I'm Micromancer, a top 25, occasionally top 8 in my division masters player on the NA server, any discussion, suggestions or criticisms are welcome. http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer
At the highest levels of play the matchup seems very balanced at the moment, however there is a sense even at high masters that the late game favours the protoss. The general consensus seems to be that as a terran player you either need to do damage in the mid game with drops, or you have to play the lategame perfectly. It can be done, but even one slip up or moment of distraction and you can loose your fragile bio army to the mass splash damage that high tier protoss can field.
The problems with the standard play in the matchup are as follows:
Terran must play reactionary to the protoss unit composition.
Tech switches from collosus to storm/archon, will result in a loss very quickly if it goes unscouted and is not met with the appropriate number of vikings or ghosts respectively. On the same note, if terran over reacts and produces too many of one or the other, it can also result in a loss.
Upgrades allow smooth transitions for protoss well limiting terran to a mainly tier 1 composition.
All of the protoss units normally used in a PvT match share the same upgrades, which are cheaper, and can be produced quicker than the terran's. Gateway units, archons and collosus are all benefited by the forge upgrades, and not only that but the high tier collosus and archon splash scales much better with the upgrades than the tier 1 marine marauder that you rely on for most of your damage as terran.
At the same time, because the upgrades for terren mech are produced separately, it makes transitions to higher tier mech units later in the game very ineffective, as you will have needed bio upgrades earlier on in the game, as well as viking upgrades later in the game to deal with collosus. The cost of adding mech upgrades is prohibitive unless you are meching from the start, which is not what I am talking about here. Adding in 0 0 thors or tanks into your mix, is next to useless against 3 3, possibly 3 3 3 protoss units.
Both of these factors, contribute to forcing a terran unit composition that feels very fragile, and prone to being destroyed very quickly with single slip up.
This problem has been bugging me for a long time, and i have given it alot of thought, I know I am not the first person to suggest this, but I do believe that I can make a very good argument for why it is effective. I believe that late game transitions into battle cruisers should become standard play for most terrans. Here is how this addresses the problems listed above.
It forces protoss to be very careful about their unit composition, much as terran has traditionally been forced to react.
A traditional lategame protoss army, is composed of mostly charglots, around 8 stalkers, some sentries, and then a fluctuating amount of tech units, any combination of templar, collosus and archons. The zealots act as the tanking units, the tech is relied upon to deal most of the damage with splash and the stalkers are really only there to kill vikings, as they can't absorb as much damage as the zealots and don't do significant damage to MMM. The battle cruisers force anti air units in much higher numbers, the tech units that are normally relied on to do the heavy damage, either can not shoot up (collosus) or do minimal damage (storm, feedback (I found it is important to use yamato often, on your own buildings if necessary, to keep energy low)). These tech units still must be present however to deal with your bio force. So what the protoss is forced to manage is his stalker/zealot ratio. Not enough stalkers, the battle cruisers are left over to kill everything, not enough zealots and the bio force eats through the soft stalkers in a very cost efficient way.
Terran is often getting air attack upgrades anyways for his vikings, this transitions well into battle cruisers, as you will not be using 0 0 against 3 3.
On the protoss side of things, I think this is the same reason why void rays don't seem to be a viable counter, as i have never seen a protoss getting air upgrades in a PvT, 0 0 void rays will die extremely quickly to upgraded bio, and will not even fair that well against upgraded BCs.
It also changes how the battles play out micro wise as far as unit aggro and movement goes. Increasing the amount of micro a protoss needs to use to engage properly.
I noticed that because the stalkers give priority to the battle cruisers, even a small number of vikings can, uncontested, take down any collosus present, the battle cruisers may not kill all the stalkers but they are hardy and act as great tanks. The protoss army will either have a much smaller amount of zealots than usual, due to filling up supply with stalkers, or they will just die to battle cruisers. As a result I find that in an engagement, as the bio kites back, they eat through the small zealot count relatively quickly, The stalkers get left behind as they fight the Bcs, however the collosus, trying to reach the infantry, get pulled out in front of the stalkers. This makes them vulnerable to the bio as soon as they get through the relatively small amount of tanking zealots. In the end once the tech units are delt with, stalkers just are not cost efficient at all against bio.
Here is a replay, it is not a polished build order, I completely wing it, it was my first time playing the map, the begining is a boring macro fest, mistakes are made on both sides, however There are a lot of late game maxed engagements, where you can see how the armies trade, and observe the different unit aggro and pathing that occurs as a result of the composition. I just started incorporating this lategame transition and I believe it can be used much better than in this game, however from what I have seen so far, it makes the late game seem much more survivable for terran.
more and better replays to come as I play around and become more comfortable with this transition
***Edit, i just realized i forgot to add the [D] tag to the title, Is there a way for me to change it? if not can a mod add it? Sorry and thanks.
This protoss played very sloppy and made many big mistakes(not scouting your 3rd, losing 4th for nothing, not scoutings bcs(which didnt do that much other than forcing some stalkers), not having enough zealots, late upgrades, no pushes - push @4th doesnt count it was free cc to pick off). I feel like you only get away with it because of unscouted third and bad play by him. I would like to show you how would it end vs competent protoss but im EU and you're NA. Also 1 replay sample doesnt look like enough.
I'm also a high master terran in the top 25 of my division, and I have to say I agree with the majority of your comments. As of now, TvP is very much like a fencing fight ontop of extremely fragile glass. Both terran and protoss armies must be handled with absolute care, as one wrong engagement or being out of position can simply cost you the game despite any early/midgame advantages that occur in the beginning.
That being said, I know that the use of BCs is a rather controversial topic. On the one hand, protoss really doesn't have too many options to deal with late game tech switches (assuming air units are also upgraded as well). The main and biggest problem is surviving to the point where you have enough BCs to effectively act as tanks for your army, while keeping up in both macro, micro, and controlling the bio ball to maximum effect. Also, feedback may be a problem as well, and during the lategame a protoss can effectively warp in units like high templars to deal with the air switch.
I think most people would recognize viable options to be either thors, banshees, or battlecruisers. Thors are tanky and nice, but as you said, upgrades can be a problem, as is the fact that they're still ground units and would die to zealots. Banshees do great damage, but can be quite fragile. My only real complaint about battle cruisers is the 90 second build time compared to 60 seconds for either of the above. And they all have energy to be feedbacked by ht, but I suppose getting feedbacked is better than getting stormed, it's not like strike cannon or yamato are really that used anyway. I've been wondering about this question as well, although I think either way, it's a good idea to stop building rax at like 10-12 tops, and go for either 4x starport (with 1-2 reactored for medivacs still) or 3x factory.
I personally having been using thors, mostly to tank for my bio. I know they're vulnerable to ground units, but I feel like if I used air, I'd end up in the situation where I have like 3 slow bcs chasing a horde of zealots that wreck my main because they chewed through the marines earlier and the bcs couldn't kill fast enough. Thors also beat colossus and archons 1v1, which is nice. I'd actually use cannon more if it weren't for the channeling and range issue, but i guess when it comes to sniping expansions, it can be useful.
I'm so tornnn on what transition to make; I guess thors would be a good transition against double forge styles where you don't really need vikings in the midgame, and bcs would be a good transition against the more old school colossus style.
You fellas should really check out Avillo's tutorial for what he calls "The future of late game TvP"
Yes its long, but i REALLY enjoyed this, this is how you need to get BC's. Basically play normal style TvP, and if you cant finish the Protoss off in the mid game, you basically turtle like a mad man, lots of Planetaries, ghosts, and dropping while turtling and getting up several Tech lab Starports, and trading your garbage bio units and refilling with literally Ghosts and BC's. EMP templar's and motherships, or carriers or w/e they have, and Yamato all the expansions. Anyways ive played that style about 5 games vs toss, and won everytime. But, you better be ready for some seriously long games. like 45mins-1hr games, setting up sensor towers, missile turret rings. and just making sure toss isnt going to annoy you with WP drops. End game were talking like 12+ BCs and 30 ghosts while sacking some SCV's to max out even further. I stopped playing this style because its so taxing, like playing normal til the 20-30 min mark, then turtling up like mad, and getting up expos everywhere you can. Its not easy, but that army Composition is insane, emps basically destroy almost 1/2 the hit points off the Protoss army, and BCs with upgrades are really good. So guys go watch that and enjoy. Also thanks to Avilo for that video, he doesnt get enough credit for that. GG GL
EDIT: Yoshi just reminded of Nukes, forgot to mention, to help you stay alive so you can transition into the mass Ghost/BCs, you nukes, mainly if the toss starts attacking into your planetary wall (which is essential, planetaries are supply efficient! and can help you stay alive!), you then nuke their army, forcing them to run away, while staying behind the safety of your planetary wall. So make alot of Ghost academies, so you can have like 5 nukes ready, not to mention harassing with nukes is also preety damn important, 1 cloacked ghost in a drop ship, landing at a protoss' 4/5/6th base and nuking it, will make them work, look everywhere for the nuke and/or lose probes.
Upgrades allow smooth transitions for protoss well limiting terran to a mainly tier 1 composition.
I feel this point is pretty unecessary, simply because Terran is designed differently. Is not a Protoss army also mainly Tier 1? Most of the army is gateway units. If the game turns into like 4 mining base vs 4 mining base, yes maybe 50% or even more of the Protoss army (however you divide it up, cost or food or whatever) will be high tech like archons colossi immortals, but same with terran; they make more medivacs, more vikings, more ghosts.
Anyway, bio and mech are supposed to work separately by themselves; bio is lower tier, mech is higher tier.
As for BC transition, I think maybe it needs to be explored more? I know Slayers Ryung likes to add in BCs late game and also do nukes. I don't think I've seen many other players of Code S calibur doing that though... but if Ryung uses it, it must mean he does well with them in practice too right?
SpecialistSC (he's GM in NA) uses late game BCs with his Mech. It works very well. After turtling like a mad man with Planitaries in his tank line and maxing out with 3 3 upgrades, he starts kiting the toss into his tank line.
This protoss played very sloppy and made many big mistakes(not scouting your 3rd, losing 4th for nothing, not scoutings bcs(which didnt do that much other than forcing some stalkers), not having enough zealots, late upgrades, no pushes - push @4th doesnt count it was free cc to pick off). I feel like you only get away with it because of unscouted third and bad play by him. I would like to show you how would it end vs competent protoss but im EU and you're NA. Also 1 replay sample doesnt look like enough.
As i said in the OP, i realize its a sloppy game by both sides, neither of us had played the map before, and i hadn't even tried my opening before. It just happens to be the game with the most near max army engagements. It is not representative of either of our usual style of play or skill. Hershey and I practice together and we were both trying things and play styles that we were not comfortable with.
When you watch the replay, keep in mind it is not meant to showcase a build, sound strategy or good play. I simply wanted to be able to show how the composition engages, so people could get the feel for how the different units move, and the overall feel of the style. If you want to contest my argument, I would prefer that you speak to the points I bring up in the OP as opposed to picking apart a game that I have stated is sloppy.
I agree that one replay is not enough and will be adding more as i find appropriate ones. I find that many of my games in the matchup where it reaches the late game, are in truth decided in the mid game and the battle cruisers are irrelivent, they are simply a safe way to max out and end it. I am also just getting the hang of the transition itself, as when i first started experimenting with it i died a lot during the transition to battle cruisers. I have only recently been pulling it off successfully and should be able to post some good games soon.
I've been experimenting with it. Its worked once. Usually I feel like I have so much food invested in building bcs (18 useless supply) that I die to any big toss attacks.
Upgrades allow smooth transitions for protoss well limiting terran to a mainly tier 1 composition.
I feel this point is pretty unecessary, simply because Terran is designed differently. Is not a Protoss army also mainly Tier 1? Most of the army is gateway units. If the game turns into like 4 mining base vs 4 mining base, yes maybe 50% or even more of the Protoss army (however you divide it up, cost or food or whatever) will be high tech like archons colossi immortals, but same with terran; they make more medivacs, more vikings, more ghosts.
I agree that it is the way the game is designed and i am not trying to complain about it, I am making an argument for why I think BCs is a valid transition. The difference I feel between how the terran tech units you mention operate as opposed to how the protoss units operate is that in the protoss army the tech units are the damage dealers where as in the terran army the tech units fill a mainly support role. As a protoss maxes he can start sacking zealots and replace the supply with archons, collosus and high templar. This will make his composition stronger, and the archons even tank better than zealots. As a Terran maxes, he can't start sacking marines and marauders and replace them with vikings and ghosts, this will actually lower your damage output. You need a very large marine marauder core to actually deal damage, which is what i am talking about when i say Terran is limeted to a mostly tier one composition.
I go 5 port banshee into BC lategame. I used to go directly into BC, but I found it to be a lot, lot, lot weaker. I still regularly get BC's lategame in that MU. It only works if you're banking a lot, I've had 12 BC's on TDA get wiped out (with 2-2) in nearly an instant when they got caught out of position and around 20ish stalkers blinked under to focus fire, while a few HT got feedbacks and 5-6 voids moved in. Think there might have been an archon or so as well.
BC's are insanely good however if you can manage to get clutch EMPs off on the high templar. Then when they work together with bio, enemy is ripped apart.
Regardless, as said, getting banshees first as a transition have been significantly more effective for me, as Toss usually only has a few observers. The banshees are critical in sniping expansions and preventing new ones from coming up. They also can snipe the archives, and harass mineral lines.
I'm not any good, etc., yet why wouldn't you go bio-mech with 0/0 (eventually 0/3) Mech serving as a pure tank? Even 3-4 Thors would delay chargelots by a lot, and if you don't turtle for too long, it's impossible to land money feedbacks. Besides, that means less storms. And, you know, Ghosts..
Sincerely, wondering toss
Oh, you pretty much answered, I understand now^^
On April 06 2012 17:34 Micromancer wrote:
The problem besides upgrades with thors is that if the protoss units position properly chargelots will prevent the thors from ever getting close enough to hit the collosus. The thors will auto target the zealots, which is not a very good use of their attacks. Unless you can find a way to work mech upgrades into your build they don't even tank that well. I've found that as your bio kites back the thors just die very quickly as they are left in front. I wouldn't worry about the zealots running amuk under the battle cruisers, zealots themselves do very little damage to a kiting bio force, with no ranged units to take potshots as the bio retreats with good stutter step you can kite indefinatly and take very few losses.
I guess a simpler way of saying it is that i feel the counter to thors is chargelots which should already be in the protoss composition in large numbers, where as the battle cruisers force more stalkers which are weaker against the rest of your units.
Yey maaaaybe you could add them exactly that moment when toss is maxed and remaxes on higher tier units? I just feel thors should be treated as Collosus - unsupported they are so bad...
think most people would recognize viable options to be either thors, banshees, or battlecruisers. Thors are tanky and nice, but as you said, upgrades can be a problem, as is the fact that they're still ground units and would die to zealots. Banshees do great damage, but can be quite fragile. My only real complaint about battle cruisers is the 90 second build time compared to 60 seconds for either of the above. And they all have energy to be feedbacked by ht, but I suppose getting feedbacked is better than getting stormed, it's not like strike cannon or yamato are really that used anyway. I've been wondering about this question as well, although I think either way, it's a good idea to stop building rax at like 10-12 tops, and go for either 4x starport (with 1-2 reactored for medivacs still) or 3x factory.
I personally having been using thors, mostly to tank for my bio. I know they're vulnerable to ground units, but I feel like if I used air, I'd end up in the situation where I have like 3 slow bcs chasing a horde of zealots that wreck my main because they chewed through the marines earlier and the bcs couldn't kill fast enough. Thors also beat colossus and archons 1v1, which is nice. I'd actually use cannon more if it weren't for the channeling and range issue, but i guess when it comes to sniping expansions, it can be useful.
I'm so tornnn on what transition to make; I guess thors would be a good transition against double forge styles where you don't really need vikings in the midgame, and bcs would be a good transition against the more old school colossus style.
The problem besides upgrades with thors is that if the protoss units position properly chargelots will prevent the thors from ever getting close enough to hit the collosus. The thors will auto target the zealots, which is not a very good use of their attacks. Unless you can find a way to work mech upgrades into your build they don't even tank that well. I've found that as your bio kites back the thors just die very quickly as they are left in front. I wouldn't worry about the zealots running amuk under the battle cruisers, zealots themselves do very little damage to a kiting bio force, with no ranged units to take potshots as the bio retreats with good stutter step you can kite indefinatly and take very few losses.
I guess a simpler way of saying it is that i feel the counter to thors is chargelots which should already be in the protoss composition in large numbers, where as the battle cruisers force more stalkers which are weaker against the rest of your units.
Upgrades allow smooth transitions for protoss well limiting terran to a mainly tier 1 composition.
I feel this point is pretty unecessary, simply because Terran is designed differently. Is not a Protoss army also mainly Tier 1? Most of the army is gateway units. If the game turns into like 4 mining base vs 4 mining base, yes maybe 50% or even more of the Protoss army (however you divide it up, cost or food or whatever) will be high tech like archons colossi immortals, but same with terran; they make more medivacs, more vikings, more ghosts.
I agree that it is the way the game is designed and i am not trying to complain about it, I am making an argument for why I think BCs is a valid transition. The difference I feel between how the terran tech units you mention operate as opposed to how the protoss units operate is that in the protoss army the tech units are the damage dealers where as in the terran army the tech units fill a mainly support role. As a protoss maxes he can start sacking zealots and replace the supply with archons, collosus and high templar. This will make his composition stronger, and the archons even tank better than zealots. As a Terran maxes, he can't start sacking marines and marauders and replace them with vikings and ghosts, this will actually lower your damage output. You need a very large marine marauder core to actually deal damage, which is what i am talking about when i say Terran is limeted to a mostly tier one composition.
Oh I see >.< Maybe I should have read more carefully, now that you explain it, it should have been quite obvious what you meant haha.
I'm not any good, etc., yet why wouldn't you go bio-mech with 0/3 (eventually 0/3) Mech serving as a pure tank? Even 3-4 Thors would delay chargelots by a lot, and if you don't turtle for too long, it's impossible to land money feedbacks. Besides, that means less storms. And, you know, Ghosts..
Sincerely, wondering toss
It is very popular for toss these days to go double forge upgrades, as terran you have to respond with a double infantry upgrades or things get out of hand fast. Now the problem is that even if you mix mech into your army you still need vikings to deal with collosus. Upgraded collosus take a long time to kill with unupgraded vikings so often terran will try to squeeze in air attack upgrades as well. I feel it puts too much strain on your economy to also add in mech upgrades as you will then be trying to produce off of 2 ebays and 2 or 3 armories. You just won't have enough money to do all that and produce a sizable army. Thats why i feel that BCs are a better transition, because they share upgrades with the vikings that you will want to have anyways.
On April 06 2012 17:11 FirstGear wrote: I've been experimenting with it. Its worked once. Usually I feel like I have so much food invested in building bcs (18 useless supply) that I die to any big toss attacks.
I found what helps me survive the transition is not trying to add the BCs into my army with my first max. Max out on a normal composition and then replace what you loose with BCs as you trade. As long as you can trade relatively well you should be able to by enough time to get your BCs out. You may have to surrender some map control as you do this but as long as you fall back on a defensive position you should be able to survive.
I'm not any good, etc., yet why wouldn't you go bio-mech with 0/3 (eventually 0/3) Mech serving as a pure tank? Even 3-4 Thors would delay chargelots by a lot, and if you don't turtle for too long, it's impossible to land money feedbacks. Besides, that means less storms. And, you know, Ghosts..
Sincerely, wondering toss
It is very popular for toss these days to go double forge upgrades, as terran you have to respond with a double infantry upgrades or things get out of hand fast. Now the problem is that even if you mix mech into your army you still need vikings to deal with collosus. Upgraded collosus take a long time to kill with unupgraded vikings so often terran will try to squeeze in air attack upgrades as well. I feel it puts too much strain on your economy to also add in mech upgrades as you will then be trying to produce off of 2 ebays and 2 or 3 armories. You just won't have enough money to do all that and produce a sizable army. Thats why i feel that BCs are a better transition, because they share upgrades with the vikings that you will want to have anyways.
Thank you! I saw your reply to some other post regarding Thors, I see the point. I actually like how 'natural' it feels for a Terran to mix BCs in... Gotta get owned on ladder in a new way soon :DD
On April 06 2012 17:26 FabledIntegral wrote: I go 5 port banshee into BC lategame. I used to go directly into BC, but I found it to be a lot, lot, lot weaker. I still regularly get BC's lategame in that MU. It only works if you're banking a lot, I've had 12 BC's on TDA get wiped out (with 2-2) in nearly an instant when they got caught out of position and around 20ish stalkers blinked under to focus fire, while a few HT got feedbacks and 5-6 voids moved in. Think there might have been an archon or so as well.
BC's are insanely good however if you can manage to get clutch EMPs off on the high templar. Then when they work together with bio, enemy is ripped apart.
Regardless, as said, getting banshees first as a transition have been significantly more effective for me, as Toss usually only has a few observers. The banshees are critical in sniping expansions and preventing new ones from coming up. They also can snipe the archives, and harass mineral lines.
I messed around a bunch with banshee transitions a few seasons ago, I ended up moving away from them because I found them too flimsy, Their dps is higher but they die very, very quick to storms. I also found that as i got better and better, and of course the opponents i was playing on the ladder got better and better that they were just too good at keeping observers alive and backups ready. The wins i was getting seemed to be more because my opponent made a mistake as opposed to me playing well.
I would also argue in your example of loosing the BCs that in the same situation having banshees instead would not have fared any better. It would guess it was more of an economy or positioning loss as opposed to a composition one.
What about transitioning into mass Marrauders/Ghost in Lategame? Sure Marrauder don´t do that much damage then Marines, but they stay alive longer, which makes microing more easy and give you a bit more room for mistakes. Do you guys have any experience with mass Marrauders in lategame at Diamond or Masters League?
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-260134.jpg)
