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On April 09 2012 07:41 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 07:19 Durp wrote:
I've never had a problem with battlecruiser play, since warpgate allows me to trade my entire gateway force for the bio force, then rewarp in a round of stalkers to mop up the battlecruisers. A battlecruiser or two left over doesn't really do anything, since BC play transitions well into a pure gateway army for the protoss, as HT/stalker can be used to deal with BCs, and warpgate mechanics with blink micro can allow the toss to clean up the remaining BCs before a sizeable reinforcement terran army can catch up to the battle. Your BCs don't have upgrades, and by this point, a protoss should be able to warp in enough stalkers to oneshot a (presumably) wounded BC.Then a simple blink retreat home to your remade army follows. In short, does BC play ever win when you trade armies? Or do you have to win the first battle to win this?
Also I imagine warp prism play would be exceptionally difficult to deal with, since the meat of your army is exceptionally slow, and you do not have fast and convenient reactored starports for viking production needed to control the areas around your base. (not to mention how minimal an investment this would be for protoss)
Since this OP was intended as a discussion, I'd love to know what terrans think the viability of a 'nuke-push' is.
In late game TvP, you have tons of gas banking anyways, so the gas investment into nukes is not too devastating for you. Also, between the range of snipe and vikings, it would be very hard to blink in to kill a cloaked ghost when there are 5-6 ghosts and a bio force behind him. I've always found fighting terrans has relied on position, especially in the late game. Due to the power of the colossus and storm, it's usually the protoss who decides the location of the battle (when they pop their guardian shield and attack) since a waste of sentry energy is much less devastating than an overzealous stim. I'd love to know if this has been tried, or is viable. As a protoss, it seems pretty scary for me. Losing your obs to a scan+vikings when trying to spot ghosts can end a game for a P, and babysitting an observer can allow an aggressive ghost push pretty much right to the toss base(you can establish a pretty good concave behind your nuking ghost). Also in the lategame nuking two places at once vs Protoss is pretty rough.
Would love to hear thoughts Just a quick note on this. The BCs will have upgrades, as you have to upgrade vikings. Its one of the reasons for BCs over Mech units.
I meant armor upgrades to effect the amount of stalker hits. I don't think I've ever seen air armor upgraded in a TvP
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Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better.
just my 2 cents 
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On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents
The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere)
BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own.
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On April 06 2012 17:28 FYRE wrote:
As a zerg, i LOLed at terran needing to play reactionary as a problem. =)
it is a problem because we cant just get as many of any unit we need to react to the opponents army composition in one production cycle. And the fact that ur comment has no usefulness to the topic and didnt get banned or warned just proves my theory that TL hates terran players.
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On April 09 2012 08:29 sandman1454 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:28 FYRE wrote:
As a zerg, i LOLed at terran needing to play reactionary as a problem. =) it is a problem because we cant just get as many of any unit we need to react to the opponents army composition in one production cycle. And the fact that ur comment has no usefulness to the topic and didnt get banned or warned just proves my theory that TL hates terran players.
Dont feed the trolls
Also, for whomever was talking about the BC upgrades. You often hit 3-0 on vikings and stop. Instead of that just keep going and get armour.
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Getting off chart discuss about zealots.
Reapers( same upgrade as bio, additional dmg to zealot, put on follow the last bio unit because reapers move faster than bio and reapers has low hp, longer build time than marauder, adding 2-5 reapers should be nice against the mass zealot build).
As for late game BC, Bs moves so slow. BC can't really do damage at all. Bc is bearly a tanking unit. If Bc works for some terran out there, great for them. As for now BC is not even in the pro scene. Sure some GM and high master NA are doing this BC, but the koreans aren't. And koreans are just better than most foreigners at the moment. I can see the arguement of same tech as viking but still. BC is like the carrier( good unit ? yes . Usable? Not really)
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What about transitioning into mass Marrauders/Ghost in Lategame? Sure Marrauder don´t do that much damage then Marines, but they stay alive longer, which makes microing more easy and give you a bit more room for mistakes. Do you guys have any experience with mass Marrauders in lategame at Diamond or Masters League?
Mass marauders are shit against chargelots storm and immortals. The marines are in there for dps against chargelots.
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On April 09 2012 09:27 generatepassword wrote:
Getting off chart discuss about zealots.
Reapers( same upgrade as bio, additional dmg to zealot, put on follow the last bio unit because reapers move faster than bio and reapers has low hp, longer build time than marauder, adding 2-5 reapers should be nice against the mass zealot build).
As for late game BC, Bs moves so slow. BC can't really do damage at all. Bc is bearly a tanking unit. If Bc works for some terran out there, great for them. As for now BC is not even in the pro scene. Sure some GM and high master NA are doing this BC, but the koreans aren't. And koreans are just better than most foreigners at the moment. I can see the arguement of same tech as viking but still. BC is like the carrier( good unit ? yes . Usable? Not really)
Your logic of "koreans arent doing it, we shouldnt" is silly. Have you thought that top Koreans dont use BCs because they are better, and can control bio with 400apm, so can fight P lategame?
Also, the game evolves. Koreans adapt too, maybe they will start using BCs at some point.
Even most GMs have issues with lategame P with conventional MMMGV. BC is not like that carrier. It will have upgrades, and doesn't get hard countered easily. (A large amount of T units counter the carrier)
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Something that not too many players do is if you have a late game in tvp and HT's are a problem with your mech army, just EMP your own thors and BC's to get rid of their energy and so you stand a better chance of not getting feedback so much.
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Ive actually lost to battlecruiser transitions before in PvT. Stalkers aren't the answer. Against well upgraded BC's Protoss needs MASS void ray, possibly a mothership for vortex and a few hts for feedbacks. Also if the BC's are transitioned into properly (having 3-3 upgrades) against 0-0 Protoss VR's, then its GG Terran wins.
As a side note, Terrans need to start sacking a lot of SCVs like they do TvT. There's no reason not to when your economy can be easily supported by mass mules. Just throwing that out there for you Terrans who can't win lategame TvP.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 09 2012 10:18 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 09:27 generatepassword wrote:
Getting off chart discuss about zealots.
Reapers( same upgrade as bio, additional dmg to zealot, put on follow the last bio unit because reapers move faster than bio and reapers has low hp, longer build time than marauder, adding 2-5 reapers should be nice against the mass zealot build).
As for late game BC, Bs moves so slow. BC can't really do damage at all. Bc is bearly a tanking unit. If Bc works for some terran out there, great for them. As for now BC is not even in the pro scene. Sure some GM and high master NA are doing this BC, but the koreans aren't. And koreans are just better than most foreigners at the moment. I can see the arguement of same tech as viking but still. BC is like the carrier( good unit ? yes . Usable? Not really)
Your logic of "koreans arent doing it, we shouldnt" is silly. Have you thought that top Koreans dont use BCs because they are better, and can control bio with 400apm, so can fight P lategame? Also, the game evolves. Koreans adapt too, maybe they will start using BCs at some point. Even most GMs have issues with lategame P with conventional MMMGV. BC is not like that carrier. It will have upgrades, and doesn't get hard countered easily. (A large amount of T units counter the carrier)
Ryung does it. It works pretty well for him.
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terrans just need to learn how to utilize drops/scans/and nukes in the late game in order to get superior positioning on their opponent.
Late game engagements always comes down to whoever has the better positioning (concaves, chokes, etc...)
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[QUOTE]On April 09 2012 07:19 Durp wrote:
I've never had a problem with battlecruiser play, since warpgate allows me to trade my entire gateway force for the bio force, then rewarp in a round of stalkers to mop up the battlecruisers. A battlecruiser or two left over doesn't really do anything, since BC play transitions well into a pure gateway army for the protoss, as HT/stalker can be used to deal with BCs, and warpgate mechanics with blink micro can allow the toss to clean up the remaining BCs before a sizeable reinforcement terran army can catch up to the battle. Your BCs don't have upgrades, and by this point, a protoss should be able to warp in enough stalkers to oneshot a (presumably) wounded BC.Then a simple blink retreat home to your remade army follows. In short, does BC play ever win when you trade armies? Or do you have to win the first battle to win this?
Also I imagine warp prism play would be exceptionally difficult to deal with, since the meat of your army is exceptionally slow, and you do not have fast and convenient reactored starports for viking production needed to control the areas around your base. (not to mention how minimal an investment this would be for protoss)
Since this OP was intended as a discussion, I'd love to know what terrans think the viability of a 'nuke-push' is.
In late game TvP, you have tons of gas banking anyways, so the gas investment into nukes is not too devastating for you. Also, between the range of snipe and vikings, it would be very hard to blink in to kill a cloaked ghost when there are 5-6 ghosts and a bio force behind him. I've always found fighting terrans has relied on position, especially in the late game. Due to the power of the colossus and storm, it's usually the protoss who decides the location of the battle (when they pop their guardian shield and attack) since a waste of sentry energy is much less devastating than an overzealous stim. I'd love to know if this has been tried, or is viable. As a protoss, it seems pretty scary for me. Losing your obs to a scan+vikings when trying to spot ghosts can end a game for a P, and babysitting an observer can allow an aggressive ghost push pretty much right to the toss base(you can establish a pretty good concave behind your nuking ghost). Also in the lategame nuking two places at once vs Protoss is pretty rough.
Would love to hear thoughts[/QUOTE
Hey there, so for your first point, and its one that alot of people have been talking about. Is because you can't retreat battle cruisers they will just die to the next round of warp ins, but you don't quite understand how these engagements actually tend to go. The battle cruisers themselves almost always die during the engagement, but they tank so much damage that chances are there is alot of bio left over. If the terren wins the battle it does not leave a few wounded battle cruisers left over, it leaves a decently sized mobile bio force that can take map control, try to pick of expands and otherwise pin the protoss back untill it is forced to retreat, the next round of battle cruisers will hopefully be ready by then.
Think of it kind of like zealots in early pvt warpgate timings. The protoss will attack the bunkers untill the tanking zealots die, then pull back untill the next round of zealots gets warped in, then re-engage. Only it takes place over a larger time scale, the terran will push in using to battle cruisers to absorb a lot of damage well the bio force kites back doing damage to the protoss. Once the battle cruisers die, depending on if the terran came out ahead, they can use the surviving force to either push or fall back to the next production cycle of battle cruisers.
To the part about nuke pushes, I keep wanting that strategy to be good. And in theory it seems like it should. But I have never been able to actually pull it off. Eventually, no matter how far back you push the protoss, they will decide to engage at some point. Late game protoss armies have soo much splash damage, as a terran you really need to kite very will otherwise your army just melts to storms and collosus. If you kite, your nuking ghosts, will be left out in front and die almost instantly. If you don't kite and just stand there and take all of the splash damage that storm and collosus put out, as well as allowing the charge lots to hit, often your army will die so quickly the protoss will have cleaned everything up including the ghosts. There might be some way of staggering out your nukes so that your nuking the protoss army and over top your army at the same time, so that if the protoss attacks into you, you can fall back to the second nuke. But that is so risky and hard to pull off, and then your also wasting 2 nukes every time that the protoss doesn't engage. I still want to mess around with it, and try to get it to work, but so far i have had no success.
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On April 09 2012 09:27 generatepassword wrote:
Getting off chart discuss about zealots.
Reapers( same upgrade as bio, additional dmg to zealot, put on follow the last bio unit because reapers move faster than bio and reapers has low hp, longer build time than marauder, adding 2-5 reapers should be nice against the mass zealot build).
As for late game BC, Bs moves so slow. BC can't really do damage at all. Bc is bearly a tanking unit. If Bc works for some terran out there, great for them. As for now BC is not even in the pro scene. Sure some GM and high master NA are doing this BC, but the koreans aren't. And koreans are just better than most foreigners at the moment. I can see the arguement of same tech as viking but still. BC is like the carrier( good unit ? yes . Usable? Not really)
Ryung gets them on daybreak, which is pretty good map for protoss late game it seems. BCs I mean. He's probably done it other times as well but i can't remember.
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this seems to be all old news
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On April 09 2012 09:27 generatepassword wrote:
Getting off chart discuss about zealots.
Reapers( same upgrade as bio, additional dmg to zealot, put on follow the last bio unit because reapers move faster than bio and reapers has low hp, longer build time than marauder, adding 2-5 reapers should be nice against the mass zealot build).
As for late game BC, Bs moves so slow. BC can't really do damage at all. Bc is bearly a tanking unit. If Bc works for some terran out there, great for them. As for now BC is not even in the pro scene. Sure some GM and high master NA are doing this BC, but the koreans aren't. And koreans are just better than most foreigners at the moment. I can see the arguement of same tech as viking but still. BC is like the carrier( good unit ? yes . Usable? Not really)
I like the sound of adding some reapers in, thats a good idea, ill have to try that out. But you missed my point on BCs, I don't think it is the best strategy at the pro level. But if you take for granted that most of us will never, ever be that good. We won't necessarily be able to pull off what they can do, because what they do requires more skill than we have. Kind of like in brood war, youd see some pros go 2 port wraith in tvz. If you tried it though you would fail horribly, because it is such a technical build to pull off. I am arguing that BCs might be a better answer at the masters level, because of the durability they offer your army, they help to absorb for less than perfect play.
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I dont think theres anything wrong with adding 3 or 4 Bc's in the mix on like, 4 base. I still prefer Reapers with Nitro packs harrassing though. (<3 Thorzains style - Such a fan)
Nukes, Reapers or Bc's. TvP is hard, but I honestly dont think its close to broken.
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This has been discussed to death. The solution to masters+ level tvp is to finish the game before 20 minutes - don't let "lategame" happen. . Watch any of the top kr terrans and you'll see that their play is centered around granting them the maximum number of windows and opportunities to abuse early game protoss.
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Marine/Marauder/Medivac with few SCV's, starting macro orbitals and more barracks with extra minerals when maxed, and at least 6 ghosts and 3 vikings in your composition at all times in late-game has been very effective for me personally as a low master terran.
I personally am not a fan of BC's, because they do low DPS, lose a lot of HP to feedback, and 6 marines with good micro are better for the supply unless you get a HUGE amount of BC's. (like 10+)
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Top 8 level Master player here.
All they have to do is nerf both EMP and Storm slightly (I said slightly). They are both too powerful in this match-up. You have huge max army battles coming down to who gets 2 lucky casts.
And yes from a Terran perspective if you don't damage a Protoss via drops or harass or whatever, you are dead, might as well just leave if they are high master level. A Protoss with a full tech tree and maxed army with 3-4 saturated bases won't ever lose to a Terran if they are a Masters level player after 25 minutes into game.
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EPT
