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On April 10 2012 06:43 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:40 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents  The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. Plz explain in detail why this happens, I don't get it. Do you not see how it reduces the range of your army when the marines have shorter range than marauders, and the marauders are in front? Less marines end up firing, generally. It makes your army more susceptible because most pros target fire marines with colossi instead of A-moving. If the marines are all bunched up, they'll all get smashed. I sort of do the same thing, I pull a large portion of my marines back and try to also form flanks and concaves. However, to suggest doing so has upped your winrate by 40% is laughable. It has an absolutely marginal beneficial effect.
I think youre forgetting that zealots are melee units and that archons have range 3. All of your marines will be firing unless you pull them back wayyy farther than you need to. Colo can't get too close because then you can target them with your marauders. I also don't see why you insist on debating my personal tvp improvement. It is what it is, its not like I'm going to try to stop you thinking what you want.
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http://drop.sc/157039
Tried BC's in this one game, pretty fun! But the map had a lot to do with it, I can't imagine BC's working on bigger maps with more wide open spaces, like say TD Altar for example.
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On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players.
So instead of linking these as asked, you just ignore the request. If you could provide a shred of evidence to back this up people would stop calling you an idiot (see replies to your posts).
Please link these VODs. As yes, apparently I cant find them, call me stupid if you must, i don't really mind. Flaming and BMing someone isnt going to help anything. Please try to be less rude.
May I ask what league you are? Im just curious as to what type of opponents you are facing. Please dont take this as an insult, im just curious.
Again, all im asking for is a simple link to these VODs, they sound helpful. Btw on the note of "Every good terran knows about lastshadow". This doesnt really make sense. Im sure there are top master players who dont really follow SC that heavily. And as far as i know, he hasn't even done a huge amount in SC2 (I know next to nothing about BW)
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On April 10 2012 06:52 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 06:40 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:
[quote]
The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere)
BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. Plz explain in detail why this happens, I don't get it. Do you not see how it reduces the range of your army when the marines have shorter range than marauders, and the marauders are in front? Less marines end up firing, generally. It makes your army more susceptible because most pros target fire marines with colossi instead of A-moving. If the marines are all bunched up, they'll all get smashed. I sort of do the same thing, I pull a large portion of my marines back and try to also form flanks and concaves. However, to suggest doing so has upped your winrate by 40% is laughable. It has an absolutely marginal beneficial effect. I think youre forgetting that zealots are melee units and that archons have range 3. All of your marines will be firing unless you pull them back wayyy farther than you need to. Colo can't get too close because then you can target them with your marauders. I also don't see why you insist on debating my personal tvp improvement. It is what it is, its not like I'm going to try to stop you thinking what you want.
Because you're probably full of it? I'm not forgetting anything. I insist on debating because you're making silly claims and backing absolutely nothing up than your ridiculous farfetched claims. Lastshadow is ok, he's nothing special. I'm not saying he's bad, but he's no pro.
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who the fuck is lastshadow? I only know ForGG now
Regarding BCs - I agree with the fact that BCs gives up way too much of the map control and mobility. To me TvP is easiest when I can force the protoss to turtle hard, giving me the chance to expand and choose my own battleground. Giving that up just doesnt seem the way to go...
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Hm i mean instead of thinking of new ways to play tvp, why not just look at how terrans are winning now? for the most part every build and unit composition you think of theres a pro somewhere thinking the same. MKP kinda shows you how to beat toss anyways. scout with ur factory and keep on preasure . TvP ina way is just like TvZ. you have to keep preasure to slow down tosses tech. Zerg's strength is based off of its economy while toss's strength is based off of his tech. and make sure ur always moving ur army around the map to keep the toss scared.
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On April 10 2012 06:43 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:40 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. Plz explain in detail why this happens, I don't get it. Do you not see how it reduces the range of your army when the marines have shorter range than marauders, and the marauders are in front? Less marines end up firing, generally. It makes your army more susceptible because most pros target fire marines with colossi instead of A-moving. If the marines are all bunched up, they'll all get smashed. I sort of do the same thing, I pull a large portion of my marines back and try to also form flanks and concaves. However, to suggest doing so has upped your winrate by 40% is laughable. It has an absolutely marginal beneficial effect. Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:41 RedMosquito wrote:
i cant help but disagree for so many reasons. Although you make some decent arguments i feel like your ignoring why battlecruisers are bad ON SO MANY LEVELS! Lets just ignore high cost, slow build time, slow movement speed, and susceptibility to feedback for a moment.
Lets ask the questoin How do protoss deal with battlecruisers? Answer- by warping in stalkers or just compeletly ignoring them cuz your probably not gonna have many out anyway. (also archons and hightemps but just ignore that too for a moment). Here lies in the problem. Anything tech switch that requires a response from gateways is not a worthy techswitch. Imagine a battle where the toss cleans up your ground army with some zealots and a collosus or two left over. You have two battlecruisers left from the battle: hooray right? Nope. Toss goes "oh theres some battle cruisers over there". Im gonna warp in 15 stalkers and take them out. Poof bye bye battlecruisers. Forcing protoss to make stalkers is not a tech switch for them.
BC's counter stalkers for cost. Also, stalkers are garbage as a main unit in the army composition for protoss, MMM shreds it. Not a valid argument.
Perhaps you didn't read what i said close enough as you clearly didn't address any of the points i made. "MMM shreds stalkers" is not a valid response.
Perhaps i can make another argument for you and maybe you can understand this one better. If your going MMM against protoss then you have to kite and maneuver around quickly. Mobility is one of the major strengths of an MMM army and arguably one of the most important. Do you think BC's can keep up? Hell no! Basically your going to be forced to engage somewhere where you dont want to be cuz you cant maneuver your bc's around with your bio ball. Encorporating BC's with your MMM makes MMM immobile which defeats the purpose of going MMM.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
I have had a ton of success when adding in BC's to replace Vikings in the late game. Though I have had trouble with the transition, but it takes a really smart player to figure out when to transition and how to do it safely in a bunch of scenarios. Hopefully we can figure all that out in this thread.
Here are the huge benefits I've seen from going BC:
Forcing Stalkers. They are absolutely the worst unit Protoss has against Terran in the mid-late game, they cost 50 gas, they take up one warp-in instead of the dreaded Chargelot or HT. Basically, every Stalker warp-in is a tiny little victory.
Once you have +1 Air weapons, the 6 supply BC does more DPS than 3 Vikings (6 supply), Costs 50 less mineral (a bit more gas but that doesn't really matter late game), has 175 more Health, and 3 more armor!
3 base armor: You don't need to upgrade Air Armor for your BC's to be effective, they will still negate the upgrades of the +3 Stalkers.
The problems I've run into are the small range of BC's combined with slow movement. The Protoss can pull back virtually forever without the BC ever being able to participate in the engagements. Of course your Bio can pick the Protoss off as the run away, but they can stop to attack every few seconds to fend the Bio off. It's an interesting dance. The worst situation is when you end up having to retreat/your bio army is destroyed and you have to retreat with your Battlecruisers. It's not like with Medivacs where you might lose a few, you will lose all of your Battlecruisers if they are naked and retreating. I haven't found a good way to solve this problem, besides retreating with BC's before the battle is over, which is obviously not desirable.
On a side note, I hope they stick with the HotS change to the BC's. A spell for a temporary speed boost to the BC. That will fix all of these problems! Blizz knows what is up.
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On April 10 2012 14:11 RedMosquito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 06:40 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:
[quote]
The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere)
BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. Plz explain in detail why this happens, I don't get it. Do you not see how it reduces the range of your army when the marines have shorter range than marauders, and the marauders are in front? Less marines end up firing, generally. It makes your army more susceptible because most pros target fire marines with colossi instead of A-moving. If the marines are all bunched up, they'll all get smashed. I sort of do the same thing, I pull a large portion of my marines back and try to also form flanks and concaves. However, to suggest doing so has upped your winrate by 40% is laughable. It has an absolutely marginal beneficial effect. On April 10 2012 06:41 RedMosquito wrote:
i cant help but disagree for so many reasons. Although you make some decent arguments i feel like your ignoring why battlecruisers are bad ON SO MANY LEVELS! Lets just ignore high cost, slow build time, slow movement speed, and susceptibility to feedback for a moment.
Lets ask the questoin How do protoss deal with battlecruisers? Answer- by warping in stalkers or just compeletly ignoring them cuz your probably not gonna have many out anyway. (also archons and hightemps but just ignore that too for a moment). Here lies in the problem. Anything tech switch that requires a response from gateways is not a worthy techswitch. Imagine a battle where the toss cleans up your ground army with some zealots and a collosus or two left over. You have two battlecruisers left from the battle: hooray right? Nope. Toss goes "oh theres some battle cruisers over there". Im gonna warp in 15 stalkers and take them out. Poof bye bye battlecruisers. Forcing protoss to make stalkers is not a tech switch for them.
BC's counter stalkers for cost. Also, stalkers are garbage as a main unit in the army composition for protoss, MMM shreds it. Not a valid argument. Perhaps you didn't read what i said close enough as you clearly didn't address any of the points i made. "MMM shreds stalkers" is not a valid response. Perhaps i can make another argument for you and maybe you can understand this one better. If your going MMM against protoss then you have to kite and maneuver around quickly. Mobility is one of the major strengths of an MMM army and arguably one of the most important. Do you think BC's can keep up? Hell no! Basically your going to be forced to engage somewhere where you dont want to be cuz you cant maneuver your bc's around with your bio ball. Encorporating BC's with your MMM makes MMM immobile which defeats the purpose of going MMM.
Mobility has little value in a straight up battle, which is the entire point of this entire thread. Taking on a Protoss deathball. Which BC's allow you to do. And yes, BC's can keep up, easily. You know why? They can fly, and are only marginally slower than MMM.
The purpose of going MMM isn't even mobility, so your statement is void anyways.
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On April 09 2012 07:46 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 07:41 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 07:19 Durp wrote:
I've never had a problem with battlecruiser play, since warpgate allows me to trade my entire gateway force for the bio force, then rewarp in a round of stalkers to mop up the battlecruisers. A battlecruiser or two left over doesn't really do anything, since BC play transitions well into a pure gateway army for the protoss, as HT/stalker can be used to deal with BCs, and warpgate mechanics with blink micro can allow the toss to clean up the remaining BCs before a sizeable reinforcement terran army can catch up to the battle. Your BCs don't have upgrades, and by this point, a protoss should be able to warp in enough stalkers to oneshot a (presumably) wounded BC.Then a simple blink retreat home to your remade army follows. In short, does BC play ever win when you trade armies? Or do you have to win the first battle to win this?
Also I imagine warp prism play would be exceptionally difficult to deal with, since the meat of your army is exceptionally slow, and you do not have fast and convenient reactored starports for viking production needed to control the areas around your base. (not to mention how minimal an investment this would be for protoss)
Since this OP was intended as a discussion, I'd love to know what terrans think the viability of a 'nuke-push' is.
In late game TvP, you have tons of gas banking anyways, so the gas investment into nukes is not too devastating for you. Also, between the range of snipe and vikings, it would be very hard to blink in to kill a cloaked ghost when there are 5-6 ghosts and a bio force behind him. I've always found fighting terrans has relied on position, especially in the late game. Due to the power of the colossus and storm, it's usually the protoss who decides the location of the battle (when they pop their guardian shield and attack) since a waste of sentry energy is much less devastating than an overzealous stim. I'd love to know if this has been tried, or is viable. As a protoss, it seems pretty scary for me. Losing your obs to a scan+vikings when trying to spot ghosts can end a game for a P, and babysitting an observer can allow an aggressive ghost push pretty much right to the toss base(you can establish a pretty good concave behind your nuking ghost). Also in the lategame nuking two places at once vs Protoss is pretty rough.
Would love to hear thoughts Just a quick note on this. The BCs will have upgrades, as you have to upgrade vikings. Its one of the reasons for BCs over Mech units. I meant armor upgrades to effect the amount of stalker hits. I don't think I've ever seen air armor upgraded in a TvP
It is important to note though that BCs with no armor upgrades still have 3 armor, so even without the armor upgrades it still does decent.
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On April 10 2012 15:25 Micromancer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 07:46 Durp wrote:On April 09 2012 07:41 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 07:19 Durp wrote:
I've never had a problem with battlecruiser play, since warpgate allows me to trade my entire gateway force for the bio force, then rewarp in a round of stalkers to mop up the battlecruisers. A battlecruiser or two left over doesn't really do anything, since BC play transitions well into a pure gateway army for the protoss, as HT/stalker can be used to deal with BCs, and warpgate mechanics with blink micro can allow the toss to clean up the remaining BCs before a sizeable reinforcement terran army can catch up to the battle. Your BCs don't have upgrades, and by this point, a protoss should be able to warp in enough stalkers to oneshot a (presumably) wounded BC.Then a simple blink retreat home to your remade army follows. In short, does BC play ever win when you trade armies? Or do you have to win the first battle to win this?
Also I imagine warp prism play would be exceptionally difficult to deal with, since the meat of your army is exceptionally slow, and you do not have fast and convenient reactored starports for viking production needed to control the areas around your base. (not to mention how minimal an investment this would be for protoss)
Since this OP was intended as a discussion, I'd love to know what terrans think the viability of a 'nuke-push' is.
In late game TvP, you have tons of gas banking anyways, so the gas investment into nukes is not too devastating for you. Also, between the range of snipe and vikings, it would be very hard to blink in to kill a cloaked ghost when there are 5-6 ghosts and a bio force behind him. I've always found fighting terrans has relied on position, especially in the late game. Due to the power of the colossus and storm, it's usually the protoss who decides the location of the battle (when they pop their guardian shield and attack) since a waste of sentry energy is much less devastating than an overzealous stim. I'd love to know if this has been tried, or is viable. As a protoss, it seems pretty scary for me. Losing your obs to a scan+vikings when trying to spot ghosts can end a game for a P, and babysitting an observer can allow an aggressive ghost push pretty much right to the toss base(you can establish a pretty good concave behind your nuking ghost). Also in the lategame nuking two places at once vs Protoss is pretty rough.
Would love to hear thoughts Just a quick note on this. The BCs will have upgrades, as you have to upgrade vikings. Its one of the reasons for BCs over Mech units. I meant armor upgrades to effect the amount of stalker hits. I don't think I've ever seen air armor upgraded in a TvP It is important to note though that BCs with no armor upgrades still have 3 armor, so even without the armor upgrades it still does decent.
Well if you're going to get BC's, there's little reason not to throw down a second armory and get the armory. The difference from 3 to 6 is double dmg reduced...
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On April 09 2012 15:08 iTzSnypah wrote:
There is an untrue statement in the OP. He states too many ghost is bad. You can never have too many ghosts late game (well 10-15 is good amount). Depending on your APM you can ~halve the protosses life in mere seconds. Against Archon/Storm Ghosts are the most imba thing in the world. However Ghosts aren't just limited to 'hardcountering' Archon/Storm. EMP Carpet Bombing can be used very effectively; More effectively than Storm because you CANNOT dodge it. The damage is instant. As is Victory.
I think at that part of the OP, im not meaning the part of the game, where you have a bank and can sack units to get more ghosts. There is a phase at the beginning of the lategame as you approach your first max, where if you you have to choose where to spend the gas. At this stage of the game if you build too many ghosts, it means you will have less medivacs and vikings, which can cost you the game. I agree that once you have a bank, and can choose an ideal composition, that you should add a lot more ghosts, but earlier on, overproducing them can get you in trouble.
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On April 09 2012 15:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I have played again PURE AIR in Masters, and I can say that style can be fairly effective, though early templar+ storm is pretty good against it.
But in this case, BC is slow, just play as you would against a Zerg who goes BL. Run around, warp in and force him to separate his bio ball from his BC's. You suggest heavy heavy turtling, but that's not particularly effective I'd imagine. One of the basic rules of TvP is Don't let the Protoss do what he wants. You turtle, he gets to do exactly that.
I think that, you have a good point, however there are some things I'd like to add. First off is the part on not letting the protoss turtle. That is a very good rule to go by through the mid and early late game. However if for, whatever reason the game does go on longer. Once you are in a split map senario and both players are maxed with a bank, it becomes very hard to be agressive. You need to pick your engagements very carefully, and at this stage, adding in some slower tanking units may be a benifit to you as opposed to trying to do the transition too early, and get in to trouble against a protoss who plays like you describe.
The other point I'd like to bring up, is that while there are similarities to a zerg going broodlord, the situations are also quite different. The broodlord in a zerg army is going to be the main damage dealer, as opposed to BCs in a terran compasition, where its still the terran bio doing most of the damage, however the BCs act as a huge damage soak. So where as in PvZ where you can run around the broodlords and only have to deal with relativly low damage, roach, infestor, ling. In PvT you have still have to deal with a fairly mobile high damage bio force. Also what is your splash damage going to be? Are you going to have collosus? which are mobile but are going to do very poor against the BCs if you ever actually engage? Or are you going to use storm? templars are very slow units so if you want to rely on that you loose any mobility advantage that you were hoping to gain. So your left between choosing a weaker composition overall in exchange for a mobility advantage you have to hope you can exploit, or going for the more effective composition but having to play the slower positional game that is what the BC player is hoping for.
I'm not saying either way can't be done, or is better, but you have to admit neither seems quite as favorable as being able to just switch back and forth from collosus, to Templar, untill the Terran makes a mistake and has too few ghosts or too few vikings. What I like about the transition is that it seems to force the protoss to commit to a tech rout, as opposed to being able to switch back and forth. They seem to end up in either a mostly blink and collosus army, or a zealot, templar archon with some stalker army. Neither of which are week, but at least you know what your dealing with. BCs do very well against protoss who try to go for a bit of everything, Players who tend to try to go zealot, stalker, archon, templar, collosus, seem to end up with not quite enough anti air. As all the gas units your trying to field make stalkers hard to squeeze in.
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On April 09 2012 19:03 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:12 Micromancer wrote:On April 07 2012 00:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 06 2012 18:01 Micromancer wrote:On April 06 2012 17:26 FabledIntegral wrote:
I go 5 port banshee into BC lategame. I used to go directly into BC, but I found it to be a lot, lot, lot weaker. I still regularly get BC's lategame in that MU. It only works if you're banking a lot, I've had 12 BC's on TDA get wiped out (with 2-2) in nearly an instant when they got caught out of position and around 20ish stalkers blinked under to focus fire, while a few HT got feedbacks and 5-6 voids moved in. Think there might have been an archon or so as well.
BC's are insanely good however if you can manage to get clutch EMPs off on the high templar. Then when they work together with bio, enemy is ripped apart.
Regardless, as said, getting banshees first as a transition have been significantly more effective for me, as Toss usually only has a few observers. The banshees are critical in sniping expansions and preventing new ones from coming up. They also can snipe the archives, and harass mineral lines. I messed around a bunch with banshee transitions a few seasons ago, I ended up moving away from them because I found them too flimsy, Their dps is higher but they die very, very quick to storms. I also found that as i got better and better, and of course the opponents i was playing on the ladder got better and better that they were just too good at keeping observers alive and backups ready. The wins i was getting seemed to be more because my opponent made a mistake as opposed to me playing well. I would also argue in your example of loosing the BCs that in the same situation having banshees instead would not have fared any better. It would guess it was more of an economy or positioning loss as opposed to a composition one. They don't die quick to storms whatsoever... unless they're all clumped up? It's not like it's hard to split banshees, the entire purpose of banshees is to split them up and not have more than like 5 at a time. Harass everywhere, deny all expansions, etc. Then you scan his main army, take out his two observers with vikings or whatnot even if it sacrifices them, and send your next rally of 5 banshees to target his colo. Only decent if you have at least +2 air attack. At the point when you will be able to transition into banshees, you probably won't be looking to deny expansions because the map will have already been fairly well split. And late game it is not hard or expensive to replace workers unless you are loosing huge portions at a time. Its also fairly easy for a protoss to just start throwing down cannons once they are maxed which pretty much kills off banshee harass. Even picking off observers can be very hard, if a good protoss scouts the banshee transition they will most likely not have 2 obs with their army but closer to five. You need to scan and then target fire each one separately as your vikings will auto target collosus instead. And you have to keep scanning and looking for them in case they have a few trailing behind their army. Banshees are so fragile that if you make a mistake and miss an observer they will die very quickly. Also good protoss will start putting cannons down in the middle of the map, so that even if the observers die they can fall back to detection. I feel that banshees rely too much on the cloak ability and too little on their actual effectiveness. I'm not saying it cant or won't work, but it seems to me that in most cases for them to do real damage requires the opponent making a mistake, not having enough observers, not having cannons, not scouting the transition. I've never really been comfortable with builds like that because as you get better and better and as the game evolves and people get better and better in general they will become less and less effective. As a general rule you should ask yourself, if my opponent responds perfectly, is this still a good move? You might have a great double pronged drop planned, but if he has his forces split perfectly to deal with it can you use your army to keep him pinned in his base and take an expand instead? In this case, if he has enough observers and cannons to neutralize cloak, do you think you can still make enough use out of the banshees for them to be worth the high cost and long build time? Maybe the answer is yes, maybe you can use them alot better than me, but if the answer is no i suggest that you practice something else, because one day you will start to meet people that will just shut it down and unless you want to accept that you just will not win these games you will need to try and figure something else out anyways. You're just theory craft, and I actually do the strat. You're trying to give me advice, I just find it amusing, since I already have a very large number of experience using it. My banshee play has worked against top semipros, including a few Koreans (namely in TvZ in a longass macro game vs TSLHyun, but they serve the same purpose). I'd say I'm using them far better than you, yes. There is never a point in any matchup where denying expansions isn't important. The entire point is to create chaos, so your opponent won't react perfectly. That's MMA's complete style of play, if you haven't noticed, and he's a GSL champion.
Ha cool, I really have no way to tell how good you are unless you tell me, so I really wasn't trying to be condescending, but the vast majority of people on TL aren't close to your level, so i assume they aren't unless I'm told otherwise.
I have a question for you though, it sounds like to pull off your banshee strategy well requires an insane amount of multitasking. You are trying to create chaos and be everywhere at once with high damage units that you also need detection present to kill. How viable do you feel this is for someone without your level of skill and multitasking? Is it a really technical build or is it one you feel anyone can use with some practice? With the title of the thread, im trying to really talk about the BC strategy at the masters level, from low to kind of high, I wasn't really intending it for the super high end, approaching pro /semi-pro class of player. Once your that good, i actually feel that even the standard MMMGV play becomes quite viable again, along with a host of other more technical options.
A really extreme example of what i mean is, when the beta came out, terran mostly just made marauders across the board in most matchups, because they are a pretty durable, high damage unit that is easy to use. Nowadays its really a horrible composition, but players back then simply were not good enough to use a finicky composition like MMMVG effectively.
In short, do you feel that a player like me 900 points NA masters, with 80 average APM and peaking to around 140 APM, could pull off your build consistently and successfully? Or would you think the multitasking required is too high?
If you think yes, I could learn to pull it off, I would love it if you went more into detail about your strategy so other people reading this thread can learn it.
If no, do you have input as to how BCs might be viable/not viable at the skill levels that I am talking about here.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
What BC's do is force more Stalkers. A lot more Stalkers. Is the Protoss going to cut Zealots to make room? No (well, hopefully), they are his only wall between your bio and his pricey units. He still needs all those Zealots. Is the Protoss going to cut Colossus? Not a lot, he can still use his Robo just the same, just less gas from making Stalkers. The Protoss is forced to cut HT out of a lot of his warp-ins.
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On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character.
Just to answer the Yamato or self emp question. I think that Yamato is the better option, as then you will only need to use the BCs energy up, not a ghost's as well every time you need to do it. However I also don't feel that its such a big deal to use a ghost that you need to get Yamato asap. Depending on when you do the transition, if its the difference between getting yamato and getting an additional BC, go for the BC, if you have a bank and some money to spare, get Yamato.
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Just watch marineking vs protoss, mostly marauders, marines aren't that good. It's not because someone who claims to be good makes some theory that this theory is true.
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On April 10 2012 06:41 RedMosquito wrote:
i cant help but disagree for so many reasons. Although you make some decent arguments i feel like your ignoring why battlecruisers are bad ON SO MANY LEVELS! Lets just ignore high cost, slow build time, slow movement speed, and susceptibility to feedback for a moment.
Lets ask the questoin How do protoss deal with battlecruisers? Answer- by warping in stalkers or just compeletly ignoring them cuz your probably not gonna have many out anyway. (also archons and hightemps but just ignore that too for a moment). Here lies in the problem. Anything tech switch that requires a response from gateways is not a worthy techswitch. Imagine a battle where the toss cleans up your ground army with some zealots and a collosus or two left over. You have two battlecruisers left from the battle: hooray right? Nope. Toss goes "oh theres some battle cruisers over there". Im gonna warp in 15 stalkers and take them out. Poof bye bye battlecruisers. Forcing protoss to make stalkers is not a tech switch for them.
Ok, again people seem to be under the miss conception that you are relying on the BCs as the damage dealer, they are nothing but a damage soak, There is still the same Bio ghost force underneath, the main difference is that you are going to be largely replacing your viking supply and a small portion of your bio with BCs. Yes protoss can respond by warping in a bunch of stalkers, however that's not ideally what protoss wants to be doing at this stage of the game. They want to spend all their gas on tech units like templar, collosus and archons, while filling out their supply on zealots. So yes they can warp in alot of stalkers to kill the BC but it means less templar, zealots, and archons for the rest of your army to deal with. Also the stalkers they warp in to deal with the BCs don't fare well against your bio.
Its not there are some BCs over there, i will just warp in some stalkers, poof by by terran. Its hey look there are 4 BCs over a huge army of bio with ghost support. Can i warp I squeeze out enough stalkers to deal with them in addition to producing enough tech units to deal with the Bio and enough zealots to buffer for everything.
The point alot of people seem to be missing, which is really one of my main points, is: Yes battle cruisers can be countered, but how does countering them affect the relationship the protoss army has with the rest of the terran army. Its not about standalone BCs. People are talking about hordes of zealots running amuk as BCs pathetically try to dps them down. They are not accounting for the other, what like 120, supply of army that terran should have at this point.
Also i don't know how many times I have had to say this in this thread, but at the end of an engagement it is not the BCs that are left over, they are a damage soak, they will soak up damage, and die, as the rest of your army kites back, but in doing so they soak up soo much damage the a larger portion of your bio is left over. It is not a few vulnerable BCs that remain to be sniped off after an engagement but a very high dps very mobile bio force. Think of them more like bunkers, they take awhile to build, but they allow the rest of your army to survive, if you get attacked they are one of the first things to go down but they stop the rest of your army from taking damage. Only BCs are infinitely more mobile than bunkers....
to address your points 1 by 1 this is why I feel they are still effective.
-high cost, late game when you have a bank, you are not necessarily going for the most cost efficient army, just the strongest one. also they are 6 supply 400-300. compared to: 6 supply of ghosts 600-300: 6 Supply of marauders: 300-75: 6 supply of vikings 450-225. They are kind of in the middle if you consider cost per supply.
-slow build time, this is a problem, but not insurmountable, if you have a defensive line to fall back to you can make the transition, With good timing after a favorable, trade, or as you start to sack SCVs you can also pull it off without affecting your army supply hugely.
-Slow movement speed,. Well the main part of your army does need to stay around your BC core, you still have a very large supply of MMM which is just as mobile as ever. Think about it like lategame TvZ, where most of your army plays a positional game based around your seige line as you drop and harass along the flanks with marine medivac. Is it less mobile than pure bio? yes, is it worse? not exactly. It allows you to play a slower positional game when you didn't really have that option before, well still utilizing the drop and harass potential you have always had.
-Feedback, this is the simplest one, dont have energy on them. I like to keep a floating building with the BCs to yamato whenever they build up enough energy, rocks, mules, even marines if you want can also work. If you need to, just EMP them yourself if the engagement is starting and your energy is high. Honestly, feedback is no big deal if you are prepared and cautions.
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On April 10 2012 14:08 CarelessPride wrote:
Hm i mean instead of thinking of new ways to play tvp, why not just look at how terrans are winning now? for the most part every build and unit composition you think of theres a pro somewhere thinking the same. MKP kinda shows you how to beat toss anyways. scout with ur factory and keep on preasure . TvP ina way is just like TvZ. you have to keep preasure to slow down tosses tech. Zerg's strength is based off of its economy while toss's strength is based off of his tech. and make sure ur always moving ur army around the map to keep the toss scared.
The problem i have with that, is yes marine king can destroy toss, i can watch him do it, i can enjoy him doing it, I cannot copy him, because i am not him. MMMVG is a very fragile composition that has to be used just right, the pro's can do it very well, but those of us who are less than perfect often get screwed up when we try to do what they do. When i am at my best i can go toe to toe with a protoss using a standard composition. I cannot always be playing my best, and when I am not, I loose countless games where I am in a very good position, with simply one slip up of control.
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On April 10 2012 08:47 captainwaffles wrote:http://drop.sc/157039Tried BC's in this one game, pretty fun! But the map had a lot to do with it, I can't imagine BC's working on bigger maps with more wide open spaces, like say TD Altar for example.
I agree, TD alter would be a horrible map for this. On the other hand, shak plateau seems perfect. I mean, how much mobility can you really use there anyways. Its like, do I attack through the middle now? or do i wait a bit then attack through the middle?
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EPT
