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I completely agree with OP. BCs are great late game units to bring into PvT. Stalkers take 50 hits to kill a BC on equal upgrades and force a composition of Stalker/Archon/HT, something that Ghost/Bio/BC/Banshee does very, very well against.
One thing that I think is important is not to transition into BCs too quickly. The scariest thing about this type of transition is the 2-3 Collosus mid-game push, which usually pops just as you get your second round of air production if you're quick. Pumping out two rounds of Vikings and following up with Banshees for harass and Robo-assassination is pretty much essential. Getting into a mid-game engage or doing a lot of harass/drops is essential to reducing the amount of Bio and increasing the air fleet.
I've been tinkering with this for a long time. I've been working on a build order that goes like this:
1 Rax gasless FE
Add 2 more Rax
get 2 gas
Ebay
2 tech labs, 1 reactor
3rd gas
3rd CC
Factory
4th gas
3 starports when you can, expo and get 5ht and 6th gas
Get another Ebay and 2 Armory when you can
Basically, I try to get 6 gas as soon as possible while still building up Bio for an early Robo push. Starports should be finishing up right around 100 supply, get out 3 Medivacs then either pump Vikings or drop 3 tech labs.
The only difference between this build and a standard build is more gas and a quick 3rd. On 6 gas you can support 3 ports of banshees along with upgrades. Securing a 4ht just for gas will permit you to drop 2 more ports and have enough production to carry into late game. It's important to keep up in upgrades--especially air armor. BCs rock with 6 armor, but die quickly without those upgrades.
Here's a replay of my build. I'm sure my play is lacking in a lot of ways, but bear with me. I think my build is very solid.
http://drop.sc/154139
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On April 09 2012 14:04 Fission wrote:
This has been discussed to death. The solution to masters+ level tvp is to finish the game before 20 minutes - don't let "lategame" happen. . Watch any of the top kr terrans and you'll see that their play is centered around granting them the maximum number of windows and opportunities to abuse early game protoss.
Dude this isnt on topic or helpful. Is it known that lategame TvP is really really P favoured and the smart thing to do is to win before that? Yes, obviously.
However, this is about what to do if it does get to lategame for whatever reason. Saying, meh, if game gets to lategame ive lost is silly. Yes if you play MMMGV lategame, odds are you will autolose to the vastly superior maxed P army, hence this thread.
Heres a question. When it gets to 3 base 20 min, and both maxed. Do you just gg? If not and your losing most *which i assume you are), maybe try something new lategame like BCs.
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On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents  The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own.
You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up.
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There is an untrue statement in the OP. He states too many ghost is bad. You can never have too many ghosts late game (well 10-15 is good amount). Depending on your APM you can ~halve the protosses life in mere seconds. Against Archon/Storm Ghosts are the most imba thing in the world. However Ghosts aren't just limited to 'hardcountering' Archon/Storm. EMP Carpet Bombing can be used very effectively; More effectively than Storm because you CANNOT dodge it. The damage is instant. As is Victory.
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On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up.
Please link/pm these.
Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible.
Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing.
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I have played again PURE AIR in Masters, and I can say that style can be fairly effective, though early templar+ storm is pretty good against it.
But in this case, BC is slow, just play as you would against a Zerg who goes BL. Run around, warp in and force him to separate his bio ball from his BC's. You suggest heavy heavy turtling, but that's not particularly effective I'd imagine. One of the basic rules of TvP is Don't let the Protoss do what he wants. You turtle, he gets to do exactly that.
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On April 09 2012 15:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I have played again PURE AIR in Masters, and I can say that style can be fairly effective, though early templar+ storm is pretty good against it.
But in this case, BC is slow, just play as you would against a Zerg who goes BL. Run around, warp in and force him to separate his bio ball from his BC's. You suggest heavy heavy turtling, but that's not particularly effective I'd imagine. One of the basic rules of TvP is Don't let the Protoss do what he wants. You turtle, he gets to do exactly that.
Well, that's the beauty of a Bio/Air build. We have a unit comp that can deal with a 4+ base Protoss. We don't have to be crazily aggressive in the early and mid game just stand a chance. BCs, Banshees, and Vikings deal very well with Protoss tech and can deal with Chargelots. I'm not saying don't harass/engage a Protoss before 15 minutes, but this comp means that Protoss at least has to work in the late game.
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On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing.
I'm not going to google it for you.
For micro:
The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor.
And composition:
Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings.
btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max.
final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy.
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Russian Federation164 Posts
Well, there's some arguing going about turtling, etc...
What if you put it in a different way: play standard allinish TvP, but eventually replace Vikings with BCs mid-lategame the same way you do that with cutting some marines and marauders in favor of Ghosts. Simply put, MMMVG --> MMMBcG.
And there's even a decent window to pump BCs more or less safe: when you see yet-another-tech-switch from HT to Collosus.
You may also want to build defensive PFs to safely retreat and repair after an engagement.
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On April 08 2012 15:12 Micromancer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 06 2012 18:01 Micromancer wrote:On April 06 2012 17:26 FabledIntegral wrote:
I go 5 port banshee into BC lategame. I used to go directly into BC, but I found it to be a lot, lot, lot weaker. I still regularly get BC's lategame in that MU. It only works if you're banking a lot, I've had 12 BC's on TDA get wiped out (with 2-2) in nearly an instant when they got caught out of position and around 20ish stalkers blinked under to focus fire, while a few HT got feedbacks and 5-6 voids moved in. Think there might have been an archon or so as well.
BC's are insanely good however if you can manage to get clutch EMPs off on the high templar. Then when they work together with bio, enemy is ripped apart.
Regardless, as said, getting banshees first as a transition have been significantly more effective for me, as Toss usually only has a few observers. The banshees are critical in sniping expansions and preventing new ones from coming up. They also can snipe the archives, and harass mineral lines. I messed around a bunch with banshee transitions a few seasons ago, I ended up moving away from them because I found them too flimsy, Their dps is higher but they die very, very quick to storms. I also found that as i got better and better, and of course the opponents i was playing on the ladder got better and better that they were just too good at keeping observers alive and backups ready. The wins i was getting seemed to be more because my opponent made a mistake as opposed to me playing well. I would also argue in your example of loosing the BCs that in the same situation having banshees instead would not have fared any better. It would guess it was more of an economy or positioning loss as opposed to a composition one. They don't die quick to storms whatsoever... unless they're all clumped up? It's not like it's hard to split banshees, the entire purpose of banshees is to split them up and not have more than like 5 at a time. Harass everywhere, deny all expansions, etc. Then you scan his main army, take out his two observers with vikings or whatnot even if it sacrifices them, and send your next rally of 5 banshees to target his colo. Only decent if you have at least +2 air attack. At the point when you will be able to transition into banshees, you probably won't be looking to deny expansions because the map will have already been fairly well split. And late game it is not hard or expensive to replace workers unless you are loosing huge portions at a time. Its also fairly easy for a protoss to just start throwing down cannons once they are maxed which pretty much kills off banshee harass. Even picking off observers can be very hard, if a good protoss scouts the banshee transition they will most likely not have 2 obs with their army but closer to five. You need to scan and then target fire each one separately as your vikings will auto target collosus instead. And you have to keep scanning and looking for them in case they have a few trailing behind their army. Banshees are so fragile that if you make a mistake and miss an observer they will die very quickly. Also good protoss will start putting cannons down in the middle of the map, so that even if the observers die they can fall back to detection. I feel that banshees rely too much on the cloak ability and too little on their actual effectiveness. I'm not saying it cant or won't work, but it seems to me that in most cases for them to do real damage requires the opponent making a mistake, not having enough observers, not having cannons, not scouting the transition. I've never really been comfortable with builds like that because as you get better and better and as the game evolves and people get better and better in general they will become less and less effective. As a general rule you should ask yourself, if my opponent responds perfectly, is this still a good move? You might have a great double pronged drop planned, but if he has his forces split perfectly to deal with it can you use your army to keep him pinned in his base and take an expand instead? In this case, if he has enough observers and cannons to neutralize cloak, do you think you can still make enough use out of the banshees for them to be worth the high cost and long build time? Maybe the answer is yes, maybe you can use them alot better than me, but if the answer is no i suggest that you practice something else, because one day you will start to meet people that will just shut it down and unless you want to accept that you just will not win these games you will need to try and figure something else out anyways.
You're just theory craft, and I actually do the strat. You're trying to give me advice, I just find it amusing, since I already have a very large number of experience using it. My banshee play has worked against top semipros, including a few Koreans (namely in TvZ in a longass macro game vs TSLHyun, but they serve the same purpose).
I'd say I'm using them far better than you, yes. There is never a point in any matchup where denying expansions isn't important.
The entire point is to create chaos, so your opponent won't react perfectly. That's MMA's complete style of play, if you haven't noticed, and he's a GSL champion.
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Yes I tried what avilo said in his video and it really worked well. Once you get 20 BCs it is hard to lose with that, the problem is that you have to make mass PFs everywhere and play a camper game for 40 minutes. If you do that every game it gets really annoying, also it is not possible on all maps. On Shakuras it works perfectly but how to you do that on TalDarim Altar?
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All they have to do is nerf both EMP and Storm slightly (I said slightly). They are both too powerful in this match-up. You have huge max army battles coming down to who gets 2 lucky casts.
They already nerfed emp once. It does come down to lucky casts but in reality it's usually just the terran missing 1 or 2 hts and getting the shit stormed out of him. And if the hts get emped they can just morph into archons. I think that the way to solve TvP is by incorporating these new units along with abusing toss deathball immobility
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On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy.
First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it.
Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking.
I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either.
"now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid.
OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something
Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs?
EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character.
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a lot of masters terrans have been adding some cloaked banshees late game due to the decrease in stalker count late game in favor of zealot archon.
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On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character.
lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players.
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On April 09 2012 16:12 RavenKing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 15:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I have played again PURE AIR in Masters, and I can say that style can be fairly effective, though early templar+ storm is pretty good against it.
But in this case, BC is slow, just play as you would against a Zerg who goes BL. Run around, warp in and force him to separate his bio ball from his BC's. You suggest heavy heavy turtling, but that's not particularly effective I'd imagine. One of the basic rules of TvP is Don't let the Protoss do what he wants. You turtle, he gets to do exactly that. Well, that's the beauty of a Bio/Air build. We have a unit comp that can deal with a 4+ base Protoss. We don't have to be crazily aggressive in the early and mid game just stand a chance. BCs, Banshees, and Vikings deal very well with Protoss tech and can deal with Chargelots. I'm not saying don't harass/engage a Protoss before 15 minutes, but this comp means that Protoss at least has to work in the late game.
No it can't. In theory, you have units that essentially counter any Protoss composition. However, its just like saying having that maxxing out on archons is a "perfect counter" is mass lings. In theory, yes, but the resource restriction means its impossible. Anyways, vikings are pretty useless except against colossi and should only be produced reactionarily. Banshees have good DPS, but archon splash and storm don't discriminate.
Bio is a pretty expensive style, and forces you to more or less reproduce your army constantly and macro really really hard. Of course, masters players don't do it as well as pros, so they generally trade less effectively, again, another "TvP sucks at non-pro level" issue. Given bio usually leaves a gas surplus into the lategame, so that's fine. But terran will be fairly mineral starved because of the constant production of marines, as well as the changes/ nerfs to the mule mechanic.
So, you would sacrifice some bio production (at some point in time) to get out BC's. BC's take time. What would effectively happen is when Protoss attacks your third or fourth, you have a smaller bio force to deal with it as a lot of resources have gone into BC tech and production, and your BC's are probably stuck halfway across the map. So, you will probably lose that base. You could build PFs, turrets and turtle, but that further restricts the size of your actual army. In any case, you will starve.
tl;dr Terran fights/defends Protoss with mobility and cheaper units, BC not mobile or cheap.
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On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players.
Well, you definitely are the one sounding stupid. Making claims with zero evidence? Your fault, not his. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. And to suggest doing so would make your winrate go up 40% is even more retarded.
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On April 10 2012 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. Plz explain in detail why this happens, I don't get it.
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i cant help but disagree for so many reasons. Although you make some decent arguments i feel like your ignoring why battlecruisers are bad ON SO MANY LEVELS! Lets just ignore high cost, slow build time, slow movement speed, and susceptibility to feedback for a moment.
Lets ask the questoin How do protoss deal with battlecruisers? Answer- by warping in stalkers or just compeletly ignoring them cuz your probably not gonna have many out anyway. (also archons and hightemps but just ignore that too for a moment). Here lies in the problem. Anything tech switch that requires a response from gateways is not a worthy techswitch. Imagine a battle where the toss cleans up your ground army with some zealots and a collosus or two left over. You have two battlecruisers left from the battle: hooray right? Nope. Toss goes "oh theres some battle cruisers over there". Im gonna warp in 15 stalkers and take them out. Poof bye bye battlecruisers. Forcing protoss to make stalkers is not a tech switch for them.
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On April 10 2012 06:40 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 10 2012 05:06 Captain Soban wrote:On April 10 2012 01:33 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 16:13 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 15:25 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 14:56 Captain Soban wrote:On April 09 2012 08:19 Squigly wrote:On April 09 2012 08:10 aintthatfunny wrote:Watch lastshadow's VODs. TvP lategame is fine, yes it's hard for terran but not impossible. You talk about one mistake costing you the game, this can easily happen to protoss as well, especially in the early/mid game. Get used to it and play better. just my 2 cents The point is that a maxes P army almost always beats a maxed T army unless the P makes a mistake (like having no obs and having cloaked ghosts emp everywhere) BC can help make a maxed T army actually hold its own. You clearly haven't watched lastshadow's vods. maxed P should never beat a maxed T army, unless youre fucking up. Please link/pm these. Without truly insane micro or P fucking up or a positional adv i really dont see this happening. Yes maybe he can do it, however for those of us with below 200apm its not really possible. Also the fact that people have to find individual examples of lategame Terrans doing well, kinda implies that the standard is lategame T losing. I'm not going to google it for you. For micro: The real trick is to control click all your marine and pull them back through the marauders so they don't evaporate. You build maruders to tank, not to do damage. Marines deal insane dps, and that's what really kills the protoss army.Second, you always need to scan the army while engageing, spot the templar, and make sure they dont get any storms off. This is your only concern while engaging. You dont have to split bio or target colossi or anything like that. Just pull marines back and emp/snipe ht. Its ridiculous how much this swings the battle in your favor. And composition: Medivac count should be really low when your maxed, something like around 2 total. In general, favor marines over marauders, match the colo count with appropriate vikings. btw this will fix almost anyones lategame tvp woes, I used to think toss lategame was stupidly OP untill I started pulling marines back. now its ez to the max. final edit: you don't need insane apm for this either, its actually really easy. First off "I'm not going to google it for you." Making yourself sound like a tool wont do you any favours. In the tie to type that you could have linked it. Wow, thanks for the really off topic not very helpful post. Yes, we all know how to in theory micro. "Match colo count with appropriate vikings." Groundbreaking. I can say in theory how to micro most situations, doesnt mean i have the apm and awareness to do it, and not many people below GM do either. "now its ez to the max. ". Ah so the fact that the majority of Pros cant win lategame maxed TvP fights is irrelevant. Im not saying its not doable, it obviously is with good enough micro. But saying its easy is flat out stupid. OT: Im not sure about the nerf to emp and storm. EMP already got mega-nerfed. You cant really make the area smaller, so you would have to make the effect less. The issue seems to be if terran doesnt get PERFECT emps, and therefore gets stormed by 1-2 HT, he loses drastically. But if he does he can roll with good micro. The emphasis is too far on the terran to micro well. I think the issue lies with the a-movability of chargelots. Some micro should be forced, like manually casting charge or something Also, OP, do you prefer to Yamato asap, or emp your own BCs? EDIT: Having looked for these VODs, what i find seems to be a combination of him getting flamed by mods for self promotion, getting punched by Desrow or discussion of replay fixing. Doesnt really seem to be a credible character. lololololol I don't give a shit if you think I'm a tool or not. If youre not smart enough to find his vlogs, then youre definitely not smart enough to figure out lategame tvp. Every good terran knows about lastshadow. My lategame winrate went from 20% to 60% the second I started pulling marines back. Lategame tvp isn't hard, this myth has been perpetuated by pissed off terrans on tl more than any pro players. And pulling marines back does not do much. It reduces the range of your army significantly, while also making your units far more susceptible to colossi. Plz explain in detail why this happens, I don't get it.
Do you not see how it reduces the range of your army when the marines have shorter range than marauders, and the marauders are in front? Less marines end up firing, generally. It makes your army more susceptible because most pros target fire marines with colossi instead of A-moving. If the marines are all bunched up, they'll all get smashed.
I sort of do the same thing, I pull a large portion of my marines back and try to also form flanks and concaves. However, to suggest doing so has upped your winrate by 40% is laughable. It has an absolutely marginal beneficial effect.
On April 10 2012 06:41 RedMosquito wrote:
i cant help but disagree for so many reasons. Although you make some decent arguments i feel like your ignoring why battlecruisers are bad ON SO MANY LEVELS! Lets just ignore high cost, slow build time, slow movement speed, and susceptibility to feedback for a moment.
Lets ask the questoin How do protoss deal with battlecruisers? Answer- by warping in stalkers or just compeletly ignoring them cuz your probably not gonna have many out anyway. (also archons and hightemps but just ignore that too for a moment). Here lies in the problem. Anything tech switch that requires a response from gateways is not a worthy techswitch. Imagine a battle where the toss cleans up your ground army with some zealots and a collosus or two left over. You have two battlecruisers left from the battle: hooray right? Nope. Toss goes "oh theres some battle cruisers over there". Im gonna warp in 15 stalkers and take them out. Poof bye bye battlecruisers. Forcing protoss to make stalkers is not a tech switch for them.
BC's counter stalkers for cost. Also, stalkers are garbage as a main unit in the army composition for protoss, MMM shreds it. Not a valid argument.
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EPT
