EPT
[H] How to deal with storm/mass zealots
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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NachiMe
250 Posts
Not much to say about mass zealot warpins other than just having more stuff than your opponent does. | ||
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ipwntbarney
United States141 Posts
And I'm a Zerg so I don't know a whole lot about TvP, but I think one answer would be to simply end the game before it gets to that point. Terran is a lot stronger than Protoss in the early-mid game so you should be constantly applying pressure through drops and split attacks. If you deny the third for a decent amount of time, and constantly pressure so that their HT count can't get too high, then you should be alright. Also, lots of marauders | ||
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
That quick burst of warp ins is precisely what keeps late game TvP balanced, given that the maxed terran army (with good EMPs) will usually win the final engagement. It sounds like im dodging the question but if you get crushed in that last engagement your just probably gunna lose. Work on your splitting, stutterstep, positioning, and having the right composition instead so you just win battles more often. | ||
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Zarent
109 Posts
tl;dr - Make OCs, sacrifice SCVs. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On March 30 2012 08:38 Equity213 wrote: Me NA masters protoss for whatever thats worth. That quick burst of warp ins is precisely what keeps late game TvP balanced, given that the maxed terran army (with good EMPs) will usually win the final engagement. It sounds like im dodging the question but if you get crushed in that last engagement your just probably gunna lose. Work on your splitting, stutterstep, positioning, and having the right composition instead so you just win battles more often. That would _highly_ depend on how much you have been able to drop/pick small engagements. If you haven't and the toss has been macroing properly, that is rarely the result. Infact in the final engagement, the toss will just fight until the chargelots all die, wait for the next warpin of chargelots and start again. About your question, you really got to keep the hts in check throughout the game. Being very aggressive helps, so you can bait out storms here and there(but this is a lot of multitasking and risky since it's very easy to overcommit). Also don't underestimate a good concave. Not only does it increase your dps and decrease that of your opponent(well makes his units spread their dmg more), but storms obviously will be a lot less effective. If you have a standoff, where neither player is willing to engage, you can try to pick like 4 rauders and snipe a ht or two(this can also force the toss to use a storm, which against 4 rauders is very ineffective compared to it being used against your army). And then there is the obvious just cloak + emp(with a scan + vikings sniping the obs just as you get in range). I am still a bit curious about Thorzain's win against MC last MLG on Daybreak. Thorzain had a decent amount of medivacs a decently sized bio army and like ~10 ghosts. I haven't seen the replay yet, but from what I could tell, MC had same upgrades, similar army count on chargelot/archon/ht. MC engaged thorzain which just stood his ground and emp'ed everything that came near him, preventing forcefields, storms and archons(well from surviving for mroe than a couple of sec). Thorzain melted MC's army. Was quite... interesting. But there really isn't any magic solution, lategame TvP tends to always be very hard(i mean ht+archon+chargelot ain't so bad, but add in the colossi... ugh). Edit: What Zarent said is also very good. Personally I've been trying to incorporate just keeping one SCV constantly creating CCs when on 4 bases. The cost really isn't that much of a problem and having plenty of mules + scans in these lategame scenarios helps a ton. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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Picklebread
808 Posts
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On March 30 2012 08:38 Equity213 wrote: Me NA masters protoss for whatever thats worth. That quick burst of warp ins is precisely what keeps late game TvP balanced, given that the maxed terran army (with good EMPs) will usually win the final engagement. Seriously wtf? So if Terran doesn't land perfect EMPs and loses the engagement, the warp ins seal the deal and win the game. But those same warp ins are used to keep Protoss alive when they lose the engagement. Seriously THIS is what you call balance? | ||
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yoona2012
Denmark196 Posts
Marauders dont deal sufficient dps vs mass chargelots and you should only have enough for the concussive shell effect, meaning 12-15 vs mass chargelot ht (25 max if many archons). Marines tear zealots apart, but also just dies like flies to storms, so its really important to snipe as many ghosts before engagements as possible. My favourite way of doing it is scan for obs, snipe them with vikings, cloak and snipe templars, since your scan already revealed their location. Build bunkers and possibly planetaries at your concaved position outside his natural/3rd in a wide open space for spread and stutter step retreat. Storms do horribly to buildings. Continue sniping ht and emping if chunks of them are together while you make sure he never gets a 4th and just be patient till he will run into your superior setup concaved formation with bunkers (and possibly planetaries) - he will usually try to break out once his main is mined out and his natural close to. At this point its an easy win. So to get to this point, obviously you need agressive dropplay combined with stimsniping his 3rd multiple times, just to delay his deathball while you take your 4th and 5th. Dropplay doesnt necessarily have to snipe nexuses or probes, if you see vulnerable tech go for it (forges, templar archives, robotics etc) anything to delay him and make him stay in his base. Be very careful when dropping and picking, you want to keep the drops alive as long as possible and always want at least 2 drops at the same time. I found it to work wonders vs good master protoss to do double stim drop around 8.45-9.00, redropping and then a few minutes later, do another double drop, while having the main force ready to stim snipe the 3rd while he´s busy dealing with drops. This is the only time I intentionally will allow a drop to die, just to buy time for my main force to snipe the 3rd. You can often get away with sniping the 3rd twice in this manner and by the time he secures his 3rd, you should have your 4th and 5th finished with 12-15 raxes and maxed out army setup. This is only when it plays out standard and the protoss turtles. It gets alot harder to archieve if you are dealing with warp prism zealot harrass while 1 dt is being sent to every expo you have, which is why optimally you want those agressively dropplay to keep him busy first. MKP is able to get his double stim drop done 8.30 going gasless fe, 9.00 is acceptable but no later. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Macro wise gradually getting more orbitals so you can replace some scv count with army is very useful too. In TvP in general I think T shouldn't be needing too many scv's (60 is enough really) and just use mules for the rest of the mineral income. Don't need too much gas either. | ||
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
On March 30 2012 08:38 Equity213 wrote: Me NA masters protoss for whatever thats worth. That quick burst of warp ins is precisely what keeps late game TvP balanced, given that the maxed terran army (with good EMPs) will usually win the final engagement. It sounds like im dodging the question but if you get crushed in that last engagement your just probably gunna lose. Work on your splitting, stutterstep, positioning, and having the right composition instead so you just win battles more often. Hahaha, balanced, really now? I think you underestimate how powerful storm itself is and how tank zealots are for their cost. You also seem to know nothing about the Terran micro mechanic and how amazing warp-in is compared to it. Also, it is actually quite hard to even get a decent EMP off when a Protoss starts adding collosus and what not..... Anyway, since I don't ave that much faith in my mechanics I usually try to cloak and snipe/emp the HT's since storm is a bigger issue than chargelots for me. By the late game, you could also free up some supply by sacking scv's or try adding some different units such as ravens for auto-turret or banshees. Of course, if you're good enough, you could simply just dodge the storms and keep kiting...  | ||
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ma5ta
United States46 Posts
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Artline
177 Posts
On March 30 2012 07:57 Dontkillme wrote: So first post, I'm not entirely sure how this forum posting works.This is kind of a general question, but how do you deal with storms and mass zealot warp-ins as Terran? It seems like in every game, when we get maxed, the protoss has the edge since they can warp in very close to the battle and rip your army apart while the terran has to rally all his/her barracks. So to simplify how do you dodge/deal with storms (since it is impossibru to emp/snipe every high templar) and deal with mass zealot warp-ins at the end of epic battles. Thanks! Also sorry I can't add any replays, don't know how I really dislike it when people say Protoss can warp in a bunch of units at the battle. When you fight you should take account of this anyway (i.e. dont fight if you know you can just barely win). Mass zealots with storm is easy to beat really. Keep up with upgrades, focus on marine production and EMP the high templars. Even if you miss the EMPs, protoss will often storm you and hit their own zealots too. Although zealots counter marauders, having a few marauders allows you to kite better. Again fight in a better position. Another important point is to continue with the pressure. This is hard to do for lower levels but nowadays its really a requirement versus protoss players. It has so many benefits. You get to save scans by simply seeing their army composition. You gain map presence and can expand safely. You force protoss to focus on army rather than tech. You can snipe units. You get to choose the area to fight in. If protoss is at your base, you have a very small choke where you can't spread out. Once its 200/200 beating protoss with poor positioning is suicide. I tend to think of TvP as a map presence game, there are other styles out there like triple CC double ebay timing pushes, but I prefer to keep the game at my pace and punishing protoss players for even the tiniest mistakes that sends me way ahead. | ||
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iOwn
Germany15 Posts
* good marine/marauder balance (depending on zealot/HT amount - marauder are pretty good gainst storms and marines have the high dps to deal with chargelots) * Ghosts with snipes/EMP (depends on amount of archons / clumped up HT) * spot of engagement - it's really hard to deal with the so called deathball of a maxed toss (even without colossi). It's quite nice to fight at chokes (less space for onslaught of chargelots and HT to find good position for storm); wide open spaces with pre-spreaded army; use preemptive scans to check where his army is / composition * build more medivacs - as he is already spending his gas on HT/Archon he wont be able to get colossi (at least less) so u are able to build up MOAR(!) Medivacs to heal up your army in stormy conditions  (* i saw a bunch of replays where especially Thorzain and QXC used reaper against mass-chargelots. they seemed to be a good deal (badass bonus dmg against light) as they also have offensive capabilities (quickly rush into his base and kick the one or other tech building - e.g. shakuras plateau)) | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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InformationTV
United States41 Posts
.....Maybe maSs blue flame hellion soften the zealot and spread bio(mostly marauder) out to negate storm aoe. ...Or mix reaper to bio ball, emp and snipe all ht with ghost. | ||
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black3200
Canada74 Posts
I put ghosts in the front so i can get EMP's off before they HT are in range of my Bio Ball, sometimes if they are just mixed in with you giant ball they will not be in range to EMP until the storms GG'ed your army. Also if you can scan their army you can run ghosts in and emp as much as you can... even if they die afterwards you can charge in then... but if you can you need to start kiting ASAP!! and hope they will storm their on zelots. Gl against those filthy Toss players mate ^^ | ||
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