The current metagame ZvP is to get 3 quick hatcherys and build 60 drones before making units if P opted for a FE build. It's no coincidence that the most successful korean (DRG) and foreigner (Stephano) both does these openings in virtually every game they play. Stephano even said this in SotG: + Show Spoiler +
"I'm one of the only ones saying, like, the Zerg is way ahead against the Protoss. Protoss have like no really strategy choice against Zerg they have always to do the same thing to be safe, where the Zerg can change strategy and still win and be safe same time. I feel like Blizzard need to patch something for Protoss to give them more option in the metagame because the Zerg has only to do one build to counter kind of all the possible builds for the Protoss and it's really stupid I feel"
There are already two threads about this (links at bottom), but neither focuses the actual build orders of the concept. I'm going to compare the Stephano-style and the DRG-style in this thread.
I urge every zerg to practice a high eco 3 hatch build in a BO-tester or against a computer to get a feel for just how powerful the midgame can be with a optimized 3 base opening. Try the challenge proposed further down!
A Stephano-variation (As used in ASUS ROG Winter 2012):
9 Overlord 14 Spawning Pool 16 Hatchery 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 2 Zerglings (Scout for probe) 22 Queen (Just as 1st queen finishes) 24 Overlord 24 Hatchery 26 Overlord 29 ~5:00 Queen, Spawn Creep Tumor at natural when morphed, then walk to 3rd. 42 Overlord ~6:00 3rd finishes. 44 2 Extractors 52 Overlord 54 Roach Warren 53 Evolution Chamber ~7:00 @100 gas: Lair, add 3rd Extractor. @100 gas: Metabolic boost. @100 gas: +1 Ranged attack.
~8:00 Typically around 70 supply. 2-4 lings 3 queens and ~60+ drones. Stops drone production and goes roaches. ~8:30 @100% Lair Glial Reconstitution. ~9:30 @300 excess minerals 4th (or macro hatch) ~10:30 Glial Reconstitution and +1 Ranged attack finishes. Roach timing attack to deny 3rd with ~140-160 supply in roach/ling.
Both builds look nearly identical until the 3rd finishes at the 6 minute mark.
If pylon blocked they both try to take their 3rd as their naturals, it delays all timings about 10 seconds.
Both gets 2 queens before 3rd hatch is started.
Both places a creep tumor with the completion of the 3rd queen, to connect the natural and 3rd.
Both gets 3 late gasses and lair with the first 100 gas, then roach speed as soon as lair finishes.
Both stop at around 60 drones, presumably to be ready for a 6-7 gate all-in.
Differences:
DRG delays his 3rd queen until 6:20-6:40 and builds his 4th queen as soon as his 3rd is complete. Stephanos earlier queen allows his to get one extra inject and one extra creep tumor to connect the natural and 3rd.
DRG gets a 4th queen ~7:30 (and sometimes sacs an OL 7:00) to be safe against air, stephano gets an earlier evolution chamber so that he can spam spore colonies reactively. The evolution chamber also gets +1 attack ready in time for a 10:30 roach push.
Stephano has a roach warren completed at 8:00 to ward of any early 7-gate play. DRG depends on lings out on the map to delay the push.
Stephanos build gears up for a roach push around 10:30 to denies an early 3rd from protoss. DRG plays a more reactive style.
DRGs 3 gas build gets 60 drones earlier, but Stephanos build often secures the eco lead longer due to its roach timing attack designed to deny the 3rd.
Topics for discussion:
Which is safer against air all-in, an extra queen or earlier evo chamber?
Which is safer against 6-7 gateway all-in. 7:00 roach warren or more lings out on the map?
Is it better to try to deny protoss 3rd or to get 5 bases and tech to broodlord/infestors (or 10 gas muta)?
Should Protoss always pylon block when possible? Should P even double pylon block? Should P go even futher and place a cybernetics core to super block?
How should you deal with the aforementioned blocks of the expansions?
4th hatch as macro hatch or 4th expansion?
Is it worth it to sac an overlord ~7:00?
Is there another, perhaps better, variant of the 3 hatch high eco concept? To find out I propose a challenge:
Get the highest supply possible at 8:00.
Rule suggestions to emulate "real game conditions"
Opening: Pool before hatch, with at least a set of lings as pool finishes.
At 8:00: At least 50 drones. Lair and metabolic boost must be started. Evolution chamber and roach warren must be started. You must be mining 3 gas. 3 creep tumors connecting nat and 3rd must be placed. You must have a way of dealing with common protoss responses, like 2 stargate all-in or early 6-7 gate.
Highest supply at the 8:00 minute mark wins.
Highest supply I've seen yet is Stephano vs Elfi from ASUS ROG: 86 supply.
Here stephano gets earlier roach warren and skips range upgrade in favor of getting roaches earlier for an even earlier attack. (He has to react to a 2 stargate all-in in that game though).
I am very interested in something like this!! I don't think any zerg has the perfectly optimal build yet and it needs more exploration.
Some people do 1 queen quick 3rd, some do 2 queen 3rd at 24 supply, 30 supply or 40 supply. We can test how 1 tumor early on vs 2 tumors later on adds up. Or just any overall "optimal" things to do like how stephano's builds always stack 2 per mineral patch and rally to new base.
We might even learn some counter-intuitive things like purposeful supply blocks inorder to afford a hatchery/queen.
I really like this thread. I have even seen sheth delay his third till 40! When I get home from work im going to spend several hours, messing with gas, queen, and OL timings.
With in mind. 1. Ability to react to a FFE 4 gate with tech 2. react to a big 2base bling timing 3. react to put pressue on a fast third by toss.
On March 22 2012 22:18 marvellosity wrote: The biggest difference seems to be that DRG builds SCVs!
DRG is so good that he can make anything now...
:D And Stephano is at 86/86 but has no overlords on the way...
He gets 2 overlords just after that, and he was fine really. I think the intended timing was 6 roaches + continuous speedling follow up to hit at ~9:00 (as speed was just about to complete), but off course it got interrupted by the voidray all-in.
Something I've noticed about the queen timing Stephano uses:
1st injection first queen injects -> sent to natural (second queen started right away)
2nd injection inject at main and natural when the second queen pops out start 3rd queen at natural when inject is at 30/40
3rd injection inject at main creep tumour at natural with the original queen, then send to 3rd wait for queen to spawn at natural
4th injection inject at main new queen spawns at natural, inject original queen arrives at 3rd with 25 energy, inject use creep tumour to connect natural to 3rd
This way he manages to sync injections at 3 bases with no excess energy!
Something else I noticed is that around 8-9 minutes he'll start making overlords like crazy, even 5 at a time. When a 2 base timing is coming, a supply block from losing a few overlords is killer. This is a good time to start getting a cushion.
This is a really well made thread and overall analysis of the standard 3-base ZvP. I think most players will do well with Stephano style but maybe DRG style is more flexible.
Btw one of the reasons stephano is up in supply at that point in time vs elfi is because he just made a round of roaches and lings a second before the 8:00 mark. This is because he doesn't see the 4th gas so he assumes he needs roaches and lings.
You can also see tiny imperfects in stephanos build like how he has a drone headed to his 3rd base, but its slightly slow getting there at what would-be 400 minerals. So he makes an overlord before his hatch. When the overlord after hatch is optimal.
Also he does 1 early overlord between 30-40 supply.
That being said, everything else is near perfect! This is my standard zvp for the moment
After a few tries I managed to get 85 supply at 8:00. With a bit more optimization I could go even higher since as you can see from the screenshot, I do have a bit of unspent resources. + Show Spoiler +
When does drg make extra queens except vs stargate? Iv been studying his play for the last couple weeks and i have never noticed this except when stargates come into play.
Not hating im just curious as it could be something i missed but i feel like i never see him take unusually fast extra queens
I don't understand why they are getting the third so early, when you can't mine any extra minerals until you are saturated on 2 bases, and can't afford to have queens at three bases / use all larva early game anyway.
I get my third (which is placed at my natural most of the time) at 32 supply.
On March 23 2012 07:39 Zheryn wrote: I don't understand why they are getting the third so early, when you can't mine any extra minerals until you are saturated on 2 bases, and can't afford to have queens at three bases / use all larva early game anyway.
I get my third (which is placed at my natural most of the time) at 32 supply.
I am pretty sure it has to do with creep so you can reduce queen production.
I like how drg uses lings to threaten counter as a way of 'dealing' with early gateway pushes, but at my level I would just die, so I prefer to just go roach warren at about 7:30. Something I've been thinking about is whether ling speed is even worth it early on, suppose at the 8 min mark, since roaches are what is really necessary to fend off gateway shenanigans. Thoughts?
On March 23 2012 06:13 mapleleafs791 wrote: When does drg make extra queens except vs stargate? Iv been studying his play for the last couple weeks and i have never noticed this except when stargates come into play.
Not hating im just curious as it could be something i missed but i feel like i never see him take unusually fast extra queens
I seem to have made an typo of some sort when I said 4th queen on the 3rd queen in my DRG 3 gas build outline. Fixing it now. I'm also editing it to emphasize that he delays his 3rd queen a bit compared to stephano.
He does however almost always build that 4th queen around 7:30. It finishes 8:20, about the time when 2 units from a single stargate is at your base.
Take the GSL finals for instance:
GSL Finals game 1. Starts a 4th queen 7:30, Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 2. Starts a 4th queen 8:20. Scouts 3 gas. Ironically this is the game where genious went 2 proxy stargate all-in. GSL Finals game 3. Starts a 4th queen 7:30. No gas scouting. GSL Finals game 4. Starts a 4th queen 8:00. Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 5. Starts a 4th queen 7:20, and a 5th 7:30 when his OL sac spots a void ray. No gas scouting.
On March 23 2012 07:39 Zheryn wrote: I don't understand why they are getting the third so early, when you can't mine any extra minerals until you are saturated on 2 bases, and can't afford to have queens at three bases / use all larva early game anyway.
I get my third (which is placed at my natural most of the time) at 32 supply.
Primarily for larvae production. A hatchery spawns one larvae every 15 seconds and when going mass drone every larvae counts.
On March 23 2012 06:11 Drunken.Jedi wrote: After a few tries I managed to get 85 supply at 8:00. With a bit more optimization I could go even higher since as you can see from the screenshot, I do have a bit of unspent resources. + Show Spoiler +
On March 23 2012 07:39 Zheryn wrote: I don't understand why they are getting the third so early, when you can't mine any extra minerals until you are saturated on 2 bases, and can't afford to have queens at three bases / use all larva early game anyway.
I get my third (which is placed at my natural most of the time) at 32 supply.
Primarily for larvae production. A hatchery spawns one larvae every 15 seconds and when going mass drone every larvae counts.
Agreed. A hatch spawns 3 larva for every 4 produced by a queen. You can get like 5 extra larva this way. Also, you get faster creep for a spine if you want to get one.
Got to 85 supply with speed 15 sec away from being done while getting my 3d at 32 supply.
These builds are ofc only good when opponent goes for a very fast warpgate-push. It would be interesting to see how much supplt people could get to at like 10:30-11min or something like that (for delaying third/defending +2 timing attack).
Watching the Stephano v JYP customs they played the other day (Stephano won all 4) it seems he supplyblocks himself on purpose at 70supply every time, then builds like 7-9 ovies at the same time to open up for mass unitproduction. They discussed it in the spectator chat, and I suppose it might be worth pointing out.
On March 23 2012 06:13 mapleleafs791 wrote: When does drg make extra queens except vs stargate? Iv been studying his play for the last couple weeks and i have never noticed this except when stargates come into play.
Not hating im just curious as it could be something i missed but i feel like i never see him take unusually fast extra queens
I seem to have made an typo of some sort when I said 4th queen on the 3rd queen in my DRG 3 gas build outline. Fixing it now. I'm also editing it to emphasize that he delays his 3rd queen a bit compared to stephano.
He does however almost always build that 4th queen around 7:30. It finishes 8:20, about the time when 2 units from a single stargate is at your base.
Take the GSL finals for instance:
GSL Finals game 1. Starts a 4th queen 7:30, Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 2. Starts a 4th queen 8:20. Scouts 3 gas. Ironically this is the game where genious went 2 proxy stargate all-in. GSL Finals game 3. Starts a 4th queen 7:30. No gas scouting. GSL Finals game 4. Starts a 4th queen 8:00. Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 5. Starts a 4th queen 7:20, and a 5th 7:30 when his OL sac spots a void ray. No gas scouting.
Nitpicking here but I suppose really that ought to have a spoiler tag as it's showing how many games were played. (And also what happened in them)
On March 23 2012 06:13 mapleleafs791 wrote: When does drg make extra queens except vs stargate? Iv been studying his play for the last couple weeks and i have never noticed this except when stargates come into play.
Not hating im just curious as it could be something i missed but i feel like i never see him take unusually fast extra queens
I seem to have made an typo of some sort when I said 4th queen on the 3rd queen in my DRG 3 gas build outline. Fixing it now. I'm also editing it to emphasize that he delays his 3rd queen a bit compared to stephano.
He does however almost always build that 4th queen around 7:30. It finishes 8:20, about the time when 2 units from a single stargate is at your base.
Take the GSL finals for instance:
GSL Finals game 1. Starts a 4th queen 7:30, Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 2. Starts a 4th queen 8:20. Scouts 3 gas. Ironically this is the game where genious went 2 proxy stargate all-in. GSL Finals game 3. Starts a 4th queen 7:30. No gas scouting. GSL Finals game 4. Starts a 4th queen 8:00. Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 5. Starts a 4th queen 7:20, and a 5th 7:30 when his OL sac spots a void ray. No gas scouting.
Nitpicking here but I suppose really that ought to have a spoiler tag as it's showing how many games were played. (And also what happened in them)
Well the finals was like 3 weeks ago. How long should one use spoiler tags for events?
On March 23 2012 08:43 shammythefox wrote:Nitpicking here but I suppose really that ought to have a spoiler tag as it's showing how many games were played. (And also what happened in them)
Is it really necessary to have spoiler tags on several weeks old stuff? I mean, if someone is browsing TL now and still haven't watched the final, I assume they chose not to rather than not having the time for it yet (or they are extremely busy, but then they wouldn't even read this thread)
On March 23 2012 08:34 Zheryn wrote: Got to 85 supply with speed 15 sec away from being done while getting my 3d at 32 supply.
These builds are ofc only good when opponent goes for a very fast warpgate-push. It would be interesting to see how much supplt people could get to at like 10:30-11min or something like that (for delaying third/defending +2 timing attack).
Sounds interesting. Could you post a replay or a detailed outline of the build you used? Did you aim for an early attack with the speed finishing? What's the midgame goal?
On March 23 2012 08:34 Zheryn wrote: Got to 85 supply with speed 15 sec away from being done while getting my 3d at 32 supply.
These builds are ofc only good when opponent goes for a very fast warpgate-push. It would be interesting to see how much supplt people could get to at like 10:30-11min or something like that (for delaying third/defending +2 timing attack).
Sounds interesting. Could you post a replay or a detailed outline of the build you used? Did you aim for an early attack with the speed finishing? What's the midgame goal?
Last few days I have been experimenting with ZvP 3base build timing, mostly to see how fast I could max out on +1 speed roaches or how high I could get to at like 10:30 for an attack on a quick third. Got maxed at 11:35, and just now I saw this thread so I went to try out how much supply I could have at 8 minute just using the same build but with a bit faster second and third gas to be able to get both speed, lair and a bunch of roaches. In my usual build I am getting pretty quick speed to scout the map for probes/pylons and delay a quick timing attack, get 60 drones then mass roaches.
I doubt any attack with decent amount of units can be in my base shortly after 8 minute mark, and if there is one it's probably pretty weak so I defend it with speedlings and a spine or two, otherwise I am ready with roaches if he goes for a little later attack, and if he doesn't attack I go collect the points at 11 min since my opponents are platinum/diamond league and aren't able to defend the mass roach :D
This is the replay: http://drop.sc/140281 (hardly optimized, just did a few tries on this challenge)
I would love to know when exactly is the best time to take the third. I see as variable as 18 supply, to 38 supply, by pro players. I've run evo chamber a few times, and I think optimal is around 30, but I have no idea.
When I was trying to find the absolute best way for this and brag about better droning than DRG or Stephano, I found a glitch about spawning larvae that could affect the result. It is very rare and rather insignificant, some might say, but this glitch could prevent you from reproducing the same result even if you do everything right.
I've done an extensive research on it, and made a TL post.
It may be patched in the future, but for now, people need to be aware of the randomness the game has if you search for the absolute optimal macro ZvP and consider 1 or possibly 2 less drones at 8 min mark not as your fault, but Blizzard's.
Thank OP, VoirDire for inspiring my work and I have your name at Special Thanks in my post.
On March 23 2012 06:11 Drunken.Jedi wrote: After a few tries I managed to get 85 supply at 8:00. With a bit more optimization I could go even higher since as you can see from the screenshot, I do have a bit of unspent resources. + Show Spoiler +
I'd really like to see the replay of that. I'm struggling to even get at 80.
DRG is incredibly greedy, and playing on GSL maps, not blizzard LE maps. You have to realize that 3 gas late, is totally different than 2 gas early. 2 gas early means you will get speed out early, while 3 gas late means that no matter what, you won't have speed by the 8:00 mark.
Which is just really hard for most players to pull off, not having speed. He usually skips speed even, and goes lair before speed. It takes some pretty goddamn good micro. And he isn't throwing his roach warren earlier to compensate, or anything like that. Unless your DRG, it's goddamn hard to pull off in a real game.
On March 26 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote: DRG is incredibly greedy, and playing on GSL maps, not blizzard LE maps. You have to realize that 3 gas late, is totally different than 2 gas early. 2 gas early means you will get speed out early, while 3 gas late means that no matter what, you won't have speed by the 8:00 mark.
Which is just really hard for most players to pull off, not having speed. He usually skips speed even, and goes lair before speed. It takes some pretty goddamn good micro. And he isn't throwing his roach warren earlier to compensate, or anything like that. Unless your DRG, it's goddamn hard to pull off in a real game.
I think delaying speed in favor of a faster lair is probably the best way to go. It's a little more susceptible to a 2-base all-in, but speed finishes around 8:20 anyway, usually around the time P pushes out unless he went for a 6-gate zealot timing. The 10:30-timing with speed roaches are just so damn good to pass up with going for early speedlings imho. There is almost no way of holding it if you don't specifically prepare for it. And you'll be virtually guarranteed a 3 base economy vs 2 base between 8:00 to 12:00.
I presume that if the 8 lings is being chased away of if the OL sac spots gateways being built he'll put down a roach warren earlier, and maybe even some spine crawlers at the 3rd. I also think the extra lings DRG produces at 6:20 are crucial in his delayed roach warren build.
EDIT: I agree that on maps with shorter rush distances some additional preparation is required.
On March 26 2012 11:52 Belial88 wrote: I would love to know when exactly is the best time to take the third. I see as variable as 18 supply, to 38 supply, by pro players. I've run evo chamber a few times, and I think optimal is around 30, but I have no idea.
I think the 4:20-4-30 timing with a second queen has to be the best. Queens give more larvae per cost than hatcheries and you can't saturate a 3rd taken that early anyway.
Stephano 11 min max 15 pool 15 hatch 15 Ovy, send to protoss main 15 queen 2 lings on pool complete 21 Ovy, send to protoss expo Queen right after first one finishes and send the first queen to the natural One inject with the first queen at the natural then a creep tumor then send to 3rd 25 expo Third queen at natural 44 Double gas 6:51 RW Lair first 100 gas then 2 more gas and evo chamber. (should be around 55 food) ***Note: make ovelords 2 at a time past 44 supply 3 bases saturated and 4 gas saturated --> Macro hatch and start roach production Make around 7 overlords at 75 supply. (some before and some after the macro hatch)
He loses an overlord around 25 supply, so he probably could have maxed around 11 mins instead of 11:10. Supply at 8 mins: 74 First roaches pop at 9 mins.
Stephano was greedy as fuck this game. However, I think he can deal with +1 timings. He had his RW finish at 7:45 and had around 100 gas before he started upgrading. I guess he just delays those upgrades if he is attacked.
My biggest worry going for this build would be cannons or the 3 pylon block. Only 2 lings for the first 8 minutes is just insane.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S3LxK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KknBI.jpg)
