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Garby
United States16 Posts
On March 18 2012 03:40 Belial88 wrote: I You are aware I said ling with bane support against mmarines with no tanks or medivacs, right? Your crazy. He's not crazy at all. Stim + good micro (splits and stutter). 3/3 marines should target down all banes and then just back into a corner or something and mow down the lings. | ||
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Areon
United States273 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 21 2012 16:45 Gamegene wrote: Too many players rely on Mutalisks as their answer to ZvT. They'll try and be cute with their harassment, feel cocky and just rely on their Midgame composition way too long, They'll pour in a lot of resources to their flock, only to lose them due to poor multitasking. Some of the better Zerg players I play who choose to go Mutalisk stop at around 12-13, get armor upgrades for their air (most of BL's DPS is the broodlings themselves and the splash damage from Siege tanks. 0 attack vikings take a long time killing 1-2 armor broodlords) and transition into infestors and broodlords, with Mutalisks flying around killing stray marines, preventing drops and clean up any surviving armies that are too tank heavy. You don't have to JUST go Mutalisk, or JUST Infestor. You have to be smart about how you use both. This. Going muta of 2base doesn't mean you have to kill the terran with mutas, you don't even need to do damage. All you need those first mutas to supply is 1. scouting information, fly into terrans main and see what comp he's going for. 2. map control, terran needs to keep army around base to stop muta harass. 3. drop defense, drops are extremely costly when mutas deny medivac. You don't need many mutas to obtain those benefits. You can pretty much get 10 mutas right when spire pops, then go for infestors, or you can just pump ling/bane like crazy since lings and banes are what crushes the terran army, not the mutalisks. | ||
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Felvo
United States124 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:46 ClysmiC wrote: My ZvT has taken a bit of a nosedive lately (I'm still a muta/ling/bling player) as Terran marine upgrades are just so strong. But I still really dislike ling/infestor style vs Terran as I feel it leaves you WAY too open to drops, and its only a matter of time before Terrans start abusing the crap out of that fact. Spread overlords, Have your lings on atleast 2 separate hotkeys. Plants spines when your eco is great. Problem solved. Not being able to handle terran drops is a multitasking problem. You need to be able to watch the minimap while doing other stuff. | ||
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willverrecken
80 Posts
in order for them to work you need 2 spires and 2 evos uprading lings and mutas. that just doesnt work unless you play much, MUCH better. infestor into hive is both easier to play and transitions much safer, smoother and faster to that scary hive tech composition while having enough gas to support all the upgrades you need (which you also get really early). there are a few maps where i think mutas are better but in my opinion that doesn't make mutas a good unit in that matchup it just means the map has big flaws that work against normal play like for example shakuras. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
When hive pops for an infestor player he will instantly start 3-3 and adrenal followed by an ultralisk cavern. So right when the first ultras pop he will have 2-2 upgrades on them (+ carapace) and 3-3 will be pretty close. Since hive comes a lot earlier for infestor builds there will come a point where you will have 3-3 ultra/ling/infestor vs 2-2 marines. Contrast that against a brood lord army that will have something like 0-2 or 1-1 vs 2-2 marines. You also need a lot less ultras for them to be effective in your army and they are faster than Brood Lords. When ultra carapace finishes you can easily make 3 ultras and they will be extremely benefitial to either main army engagements or counters / planetary snipes. If you only make 3-4 broods they are nearly useless and you can't use them in counterattacks at all. You need to have atleast 8-10 broods before they can start doing damage and even then they need to traverse the map slowly, giving the terran a great deal of time to prepare for the attack. You normally add double spire after your 3-3 is done or somewhere after you've maxed on ultras and have a good econ. Then you can get a greater spire and start working on those upgrades. Then the tech switch comes suddenly with maybe 2-2 broods that he won't expect. Ling->infestor->ultra->brood/corruptor is a LOT more fluent of a transition than ling->banes->mutas->infestor->brood/corruptor and it scales much better with upgrades. Hell I even get ranged upgrades for my infested terrans late game because you don't really need to spend a million gas to be able to do damage with ultra/ling. | ||
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how
United States538 Posts
As others said, they are also great for scouting, and just keeping the opponent honest. If they forget to build turrets anywhere, you can punish them. Lastly, they are great for a late game tech switch. So useful to make 20 mutas after a big battle and just wreck your opponents econ. | ||
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saynomore
Norway149 Posts
On March 21 2012 23:32 StarBrift wrote: Another reason why infestor/ling is clearly superior right now is that the transition into ultras is faster and more effective than transitioning into brood lords off of muta builds. When hive pops for an infestor player he will instantly start 3-3 and adrenal followed by an ultralisk cavern. So right when the first ultras pop he will have 2-2 upgrades on them (+ carapace) and 3-3 will be pretty close. Since hive comes a lot earlier for infestor builds there will come a point where you will have 3-3 ultra/ling/infestor vs 2-2 marines. Contrast that against a brood lord army that will have something like 0-2 or 1-1 vs 2-2 marines. You also need a lot less ultras for them to be effective in your army and they are faster than Brood Lords. When ultra carapace finishes you can easily make 3 ultras and they will be extremely benefitial to either main army engagements or counters / planetary snipes. If you only make 3-4 broods they are nearly useless and you can't use them in counterattacks at all. You need to have atleast 8-10 broods before they can start doing damage and even then they need to traverse the map slowly, giving the terran a great deal of time to prepare for the attack. You normally add double spire after your 3-3 is done or somewhere after you've maxed on ultras and have a good econ. Then you can get a greater spire and start working on those upgrades. Then the tech switch comes suddenly with maybe 2-2 broods that he won't expect. Ling->infestor->ultra->brood/corruptor is a LOT more fluent of a transition than ling->banes->mutas->infestor->brood/corruptor and it scales much better with upgrades. Hell I even get ranged upgrades for my infested terrans late game because you don't really need to spend a million gas to be able to do damage with ultra/ling. Nice post. With mutas the hive tech comes pretty late. And it is hard to transition into ultras, but going brood lords mean you will likely have a semi-weak ground army and it will be hard to hold off a push that comes before you have enough broods. Getting to hive tech off mutas is just a lot harder (and less effective) to do than with infestor based play. I feel that the maps also makes it harder to go mutas. The maps force a strong army to control the middle or makes it hard to harass with mutas in the natural and main most of the time. | ||
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BlazeTSR
United States218 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
you spend like 2k+ gas on units that are simply doing less per unit after getting 10-15 and getting more of them doesn't improve your tactical effectiveness with them except that you will eventually have a flock strong enough to kill buildings. it has always been an idiotic thing to just get mass mutas and against a good enough player it shouldn't be able to do anything except force a base trade. WHY would you even get more than like 15 mutas if you weren't planning on killing buildings? you're either planning on killing their buildings or you're a bad player who's actually trying to fight an straight up army with mutalisks and that makes no sense. there is of course the idea of getting 20-30 mutalisks for the sake of doing what 1 flock of mutas can do in 2 places at once, but that is so rarely ever done that i only mention it for the sake of it existing. most people just 1a mutas the entire game and don't even micro well until thors despite them being a micro intensive unit. the fact that people are going into mass mutas with no pressure except from mutas whatsoever and not getting completely destroyed tells me the unit is more than fine. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 21 2012 23:20 willverrecken wrote: mutas are awful zvt. in order for them to work you need 2 spires and 2 evos uprading lings and mutas. that just doesnt work unless you play much, MUCH better. infestor into hive is both easier to play and transitions much safer, smoother and faster to that scary hive tech composition while having enough gas to support all the upgrades you need (which you also get really early). there are a few maps where i think mutas are better but in my opinion that doesn't make mutas a good unit in that matchup it just means the map has big flaws that work against normal play like for example shakuras. Perhaps the reason mutas don't work for you in zvt is BECAUSE you go double spire double evolution chamber, as if you could afford that on 2 base. Mutas provide so many things in this game, but if you're one of those scrubs who think only in terms of unit composition, they might appear bad to you. You know, because YOU'RE bad. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:31 mooseman1710 wrote: yeah but the fact that DRG .... the best zerg in the world.. is willing to go mutas in a finals of a MLG for 25k.. means that mutas are totally viable.. just because godly MKP beat mutas.. doesnt mean that mutas are not viable in ZvT... and he only made one spire.. so i dont know what you guys are getting at. if the best zerg in the world will go mutas on 3 base.. mutas are viable. if he loses or not it doesnt matter its MKP... It pretty much does mean mutas are not viable, actually, at least not pure idra-style mass mutas. DRG arguably the best player in the world, goes for heavy muta strats repeatedly and lost almost every single time. Queue DRG not being called the best player in the world anymore. They have their uses, especially if you know you have some tangible advantage - clearing out a huge # of marines before going spire is a decent move, for example, but going spire blindly is not. Thus it can be relegated to a niche, which is fine, but cannot be the centerpiece of a strategy. Mostly ling/baneling with upgrades is the centerpiece. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:31 mooseman1710 wrote: yeah but the fact that DRG .... the best zerg in the world.. is willing to go mutas in a finals of a MLG for 25k.. means that mutas are totally viable.. just because godly MKP beat mutas.. doesnt mean that mutas are not viable in ZvT... and he only made one spire.. so i dont know what you guys are getting at. if the best zerg in the world will go mutas on 3 base.. mutas are viable. if he loses or not it doesnt matter its MKP... It's not a matter of viability. Everyone knows mutas are viable, it's a matter of the opportunity cost. Heart vs DRG game 2, DRG is in an enormous lead after the bust. He goes mutas and is not able to do a damn thing with them and it actually puts him behind cause he delayed his other tech and upgrades by so much for close to nothing in return. DRG is a phenomenal player yes, but was anyone actually impressed by anything his mutas were able to accomplish? | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
They still are used and still can do damage, but if people see a player doing well without using Mutas much they will copy it.I wouln't jump to conclusions based on not so much data. | ||
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