EPTA player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg.
[D] The State of Mutalisks in ZvT - Page 8
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
A player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg. | ||
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
On March 26 2012 19:45 AzureD wrote: I think you people are deluded. Muta are still a strong option for many games. Especially for ZvP. The Phoenix upgrade did nothing. Mutas still dominate whenever they are used vs Protoss and if anyone bothered to watch recent tournemts you would have noticed how devastating they where. They serve as a powerful counter tech switch when Protoss try to strongly counter heavy Roach play. A player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg. Did you read the title of this thread? | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On March 26 2012 16:41 Ziggitz wrote: The same thing is happening that has always been happening thanks to Blizzards lack of understanding of their own game. Zerg needs counter attack paths and harassment opportunities and map makers aren't giving them any. Too much bias within the community over map layouts and too many map related vulnerabilities that Zerg has to contend with in order for a map to be good for them. Protoss has a similarly tough time with map layouts, as certain layouts pose serious problems for them, but at least they have the ability to wall off and don't need as many bases as Zerg does. Right now it's pretty much all about Ling/Roach/Infestor, into Broodlord/Corruptor, with a tech switch to Ultralisks if your BLs die to Terran as it's unlikely you will have time to remake them (and the Terran might have too many Vikings at this point). Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
In ZvP, the zergs have learned this lesson: you cannot just engage a protoss stalker ball with your mutas head on (or at least you shouldn't). You get a ton of lings, and while they tank the damage (and add quite some damage themselves), your mutas add damage to that while taking little to no damage themselves. Of course, once you get a critical number of mutas, you can fly in and take out bases, but until then, it is often times hardly worth it (mutas aren't really strong in air to ground, so they kill worker too slowly when in numbers < 10 and you usually lose one or two, so until you have enough, don't even try, it is not worth the risk. Flying in 3-5 mutas will kill ~5 worker max if you are really lucky and your opponent is bad, and that is best case possible. A banshee laughs at that.) in ZvT, it is the same game for me. But here upgrades are even more important for your ground units (zerglings). As long you keep up in upgrades (or are ahead), get some splash damage (banelings/infestors so he has to split/run) and don't take too much drop damage, you should be able to crush attacks. At least that's how i win games (mid-ish master player last time i went ladder) | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
So they melt to opponents upgraded units. | ||
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kiklion
99 Posts
I still find muta's to be useful against terran. Even i if it is just getting a few to prompt turret reactions/snipe reinforcements. When the other player is being aggressive, one of the problems is how they are cutting off your reinforcements by attacking/killing the units spawning from that base, if they can also get their reinforcements to stream in and rally with that aggressive ball you are going to lose. If you have 8 muta's stopping the reinforcements from getting to the ball, you have a better chance of eventually pushing the ball away. A large problem with using mutalisks in standard fights is that you can't get their upgrades. The closest comparison could be to the armory. Terran would need to go barracks --> factory --> armory and zerg would need to go pool-->lair-->spire, however the spire takes 45 seconds more to build and costs double the amount of gas as an armory (in order to try to get double upgrades). and even then if people go double armory they are typically going mech and the upgrades will help all of their units. Going double spire only helps your muta in muta/ling/bling, AFAIK there is no air army zerg build. | ||
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Emoguycrycry
9 Posts
Infestors are like stone, a strong stationary foundation upon which a zerg can tech to hive while staving off endless waves of terran aggression. Infestors punish bold, foolhardy pushes by over-eager terrans and provide a somewhat "catch-all"solution to most terran gimmicks. Both units present a viable lair tech option for zerg. What it really comes down to is your opponents mind set, the map, and your personal playstyle. If a terran is playing passively, looking to aggressively expand and macro going infestors will cater to his whim and he will likely take advantage of your lack of map presence. An aggressive terran, however, will aim to punish your muta play in an often game-ending fashion. Both units have their place in zvt and require a unique response from the terran player. I believe the meta game will eventually settle into a state that requires a terran player to scout vigorously for the zergs tech path.(as it should be) I like to play to take my opponent out of their comfort zone. This means gleaning as much information as possible about my opponents playstyle in the early game so I can either muta all over a passive player or fungal in the face of an aggressive player. Again, it is all comes down to you. But both the mutalisk and the infestor will play an important role in the zvt metagame for years to come! | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Yes but I am not really responding to the OP so much as other people who have commentated on the other matchups. Mutalisks are also seen sometimes in TvZ. They are still quite effective when in the hands of a very good player. A small group of them can pick off weak points whenever the Terran exposes it such as a lone siege tank or a reactor not covered by AA. | ||
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ndesktop
Romania109 Posts
On March 26 2012 20:51 avc wrote: Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work. That's what zerg is all about, no?  Have 1+ bases extra, and trade the T to death. Here comes muta for raiding SCVs, gas etc. | ||
SeventhPride
712 Posts
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Chrisje
Netherlands29 Posts
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Chrisje
Netherlands29 Posts
On March 27 2012 14:53 ndesktop wrote: That's what zerg is all about, no? Have 1+ bases extra, and trade the T to death. Here comes muta for raiding SCVs, gas etc.You're kinda right but when the Zerg trades with the Terran it has to be efficient as well. | ||
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jonaa
Netherlands151 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:02 SeventhPride wrote: Okay, I tried muta again after 2 seasons of not using it. And I have to agree that mutas are not suitable for the current metagame. Terrans are just getting TOO good at stopping muta play that its not worth getting them to harass the opponent. I think there has got to be some meta game changes before mutas get viable again. Of course, I am not saying they need a buff btw, I am just saying meta game changes. I hope people don't get me wrong. Its two different things. To be fair if you dont go muta for 2 seasons you can't expect to do very well with it instantly when you try, they still have use but it's map dependand. | ||
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yzzdups
United States32 Posts
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:10 aebriol wrote: Problem with mutas is that it is impossible to upgrade them in a reasonable time. Even with double spire. So they melt to opponents upgraded units. I've seen Stephano have 3/3 air from double spire at 15 mins | ||
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lrofd
United States187 Posts
On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP. Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2 They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP. I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing. Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general. Mutas don't deliver. While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent. Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down. Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games. Thanks Blizzard for boxing me into marines in all MUs when i random terran. Thanks Blizzard for boxing me into stalkers in all MUs when i random protoss. ya? | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
LOL. Apparently none of us were bothered to watch recent tournaments (because we all actually have time to watch tournaments, by the way), yet he didn't bother to read the title ^^. People love to fight. Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work. I don't completely agree. Zerg doesn't need to be ahead of bases in Terran as desperately as they do in ZvP - they can survive with even bases, they just have to get their next base quicker than the opponent (or saturate it quicker, in case of fast third T). But banes are so cost efficient, and mutas are quite good at dealing damage, it's very easy for zerg to completely roll a T army, especially if they aren't perfectly sieged up or focus fire banes in time. Zerg can just outproduce terran so quickly. I have lots of games as lingbanemuta where I just completely stomp terran armies, simply by going lings instead of that extra 10 drones. . But here upgrades are even more important for your ground units (zerglings). I completely disagree. When playing muta style, upgrades aren't that important at all for lings. Getting +1 carapace before Terran gets +1 vehicles is very important (not as important as baneling speed, but close), but otherwise, upgrades on lings throughout the course of the game are not that important. Until you reach 4 bases or 200/200, you are better off spending that gas on more mutas or banelings. Banelings and mutas are the huge damage dealers, not lings. There are no critical hit numbers after 0/1 - +1 tanks or thors kill lings in same number of shots no matter what armor they are after +1 vehicle is on. As for marines, +1 attack or carapace is just an extra hit, for both marines and lings, against the other. Lings rape marines 1 v 1, in the open, pretty hard, but it gets to be a numbers game for the most part, but if you have a bunch of lings, you will win even with upgrade disadvantage (not saying 40 lings vs 20 marines, but just having enough lings, in the open). Now what really changes everything, is siege tanks, which basically ignore armor after +1, and medivacs, which 3/3 adrenal won't cut through marine+medivac 0/0. But with muta or baneling support, it will. Once you get 4 bases or 200/200, yea, definitely go double evo, it really helps out broodlings. I'm not saying don't get upgrades. I just disagree with the idea that upgrades are 'extremely important' due to siege tanks, medivacs, and banelings and mutas. Problem with mutas is that it is impossible to upgrade them in a reasonable time. Even with double spire. So they melt to opponents upgraded units. They melt with upgrades too. That's not how you should be engaging with mutas. Mutas should not really be hit, or choosing when they engage against small groups of defending marines. I did a bunch of testing with upgrades on mutas in: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312419 Double spire isn't necessary, basically. With ling/bane support, mutas do fine. And upgrades aren't the problem. Fungal Change also affected marines. It is not entirely rare for two stims to go off without being fully healed inbetween. Especially when there are a lot of marines and only a few medivacs. 1 fungal + 2 stims used to kill a marine ball. You add lings into it and that extra 6 health is two more attacks from a zergling (assuming equal upgrades) 2 FG to kill marines, same as before. You just need to be more careful about clipping, and micro your FG better. An aggressive terran, however, will aim to punish your muta play in an often game-ending fashion. I don't think so. Quite the contrary, mutas will punish a terran for being too aggressive, by providing so much damage and sniping tanks in the engagement, that you just fucking roll him. By keeping your ever growing muta flock alive, you deny terran from being aggressive, because he knows you'll pick off reinforcements, delay his push while your superior econ is reaping benefits, and then when he arrives, you just completely roll his army with ling/bane and tons of mutas adding sheer damage. What can happen, is Terran can be aggressive and punish you if you lose too many mutas by just being completely careless and flying mutas over marines or going through turrets on one side of his base and then through more on the other side. By keeping your mutas alive, you assure that any T push will be crushed before he's really near maxed out and teched up. You punish any T who is too aggressive - which is the catch T finds themselves in in ZvT, if they are aggressive, you kill them and just push and pull them everywhere, if they aren't aggressive, zerg gets 5 bases and a ton of broodlord/infestor/spines. Okay, I tried muta again after 2 seasons of not using it. And I have to agree that mutas are not suitable for the current metagame. Terrans are just getting TOO good at stopping muta play that its not worth getting them to harass the opponent. I think there has got to be some meta game changes before mutas get viable again. Of course, I am not saying they need a buff btw, I am just saying meta game changes. I hope people don't get me wrong. Its two different things. I seriously doubt your few games after 3 months of not playing mutas is definitive proof of it not working. I've played high masters with muta play. I play as a mid-masters with mutas every ZvT. My win rate is very, very positive in ZvT (statistically, it's my best match-up). I haven't seen any 'metagame' shift where T just blind counters my muta play. I get mutas, T is forced to stay in his base, as long as I keep them alive and expand/drone correctly, any push he does is crushed, or T is forced to stay in his base so long that I get broodlord/infestor. The only time I lose in ZvT is when I stupidly lose too many mutas, like flying them into his base too aggressively over too many turrets, fly over marines (happens way too often then it should), or I don't drone up my third enough (especially against fast third T) and T just wins the game by having too big of an econ lead because I'm sort of all-inning without knowing it. I deal with drops very well (maybe not well, maybe overreact is a better term, I put 2-5 patrol banes and spines when I have 4 bases, sometimes earlier like on close air or if I scout drop heavy play). But besides a few bad decisions on games where I went for base trade when T pushed out when I should not have (it's happened a few times, but even then, that's more of 'losing too many mutas after realizing T is walled in too well after he left his base and then flying mutas over his marines when going back to home to defend'), the only time I lose ZvT is not droning up third hard enough sometimes, or stupidly losing too many mutas. or bullshit fucking close spawn antiga or entombed, like they just drop from their third with siege tank and turrets protection. That's just fucking lame as shit. As people are stating in the thread, the pro's are mainly using infestor ling style now, personally as a Terran I think this is an more effective style I don't think it's the infestors per se that is so awesome of what the pros are doing (really? every pro?), but it's the fast third style behind roaches, or super fast 3 base hive. I think it's just a new turtle style zerg who just gets infestors to turtle better and faster transition to hive. the only problem i see with mutas atm is that the counter thors, which should not happen. Yea, thors have never been a problem for me as Zerg. Whenever I see them, and I always go mutas, I am happy because it's less tanks, and less marines, and less medivacs. The thor is just so useless against the real meat of my army, the ling/bane. I just magic box over the thor, snipe it quickly, then focus the tanks down while the thors did nothing to stop the mass of ling/bane. The terrans I have trouble with most, are the ones that stay just on marine/tank/medivac, macro well, and just continually send waves of marine/tank/medivac to my further and further apart bases while I have to dedicate my entire army to each half of their's they send, to which one will kill a hatch unimpeded. | ||
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DoT_TL
Singapore47 Posts
not to mention that poking into his base with mutas often give me a good sense of his army size and tech | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
The only time I lose in ZvT is when I stupidly lose too many mutas, like flying them into his base too aggressively over too many turrets, fly over marines (happens way too often then it should), or I don't drone up my third enough (especially against fast third T) and T just wins the game by having too big of an econ lead because I'm sort of all-inning without knowing it. I deal with drops very well (maybe not well, maybe overreact is a better term, I put 2-5 patrol banes and spines when I have 4 bases, sometimes earlier like on close air or if I scout drop heavy play). Muta open a nice timing for Terran to kill you before Hive tech kick in. I can't even remember how many pro games Zerg lost with this style, where Terran turtle up to 170 supply against Mutaplay, and make a huge doom push when his upgrades finish just when you're spending money on teching to BLs. And when Terran is nearly max, with 7 to 8 tanks, they roll over MutalingBane like nothing. Infestor play don't open you to this kind of timing, because you have Hive tech up to 4min earlier. | ||
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