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My prediction is that muta play will return with the change that instead of getting a fast +1 attack, zergs will instead opt for armor upgrades on air units on the basis that every single anti air unit in the terran arsenal is doubly or quadruply affected by doing so.
Basically everything the terran arsenal has which is able to shoot up has multiple attacks. This is why terran air armor is more expensive than air attack, because against other terrans, air armor is better (also ravens and medivacs but hey). Missile turrets, Thors, Vikings, all have weak multiple attacks against air, and even marines which do a very small amount of damage very very fast. I don't know if anyone has done the math, but I'm sure that a +1 armor muta does better in a straight up fight vs a +1 attack marine than vice versa due to the fire rate of the muta. Then you consider micro, where your mutas are diving in, firing a single massed volley to snipe a single target and then retreating again and your armor is going to be far more useful, so long as you're controlling them with that in mind.
But that isn't why zergs should get air armor, air attack is very likely the better all around upgrade for mutas in 90% of combat situations, but for broodlords, the only things they're going to reasonably be taking fire of any kind from are vikings. Vikings fire 2 relatively weak rockets per volley which means your broodlords take 2 points less damage per volley. The trade off is your broodlords do 2 less damage per broodlings strike... Wait what's the trade off again?
Now about ghosts being more effective vs infestors... Yes... and then again very very no. The trouble is, while they might hard counter infestors with snipe, they hard fail against every other unit in the zerg army except for perhaps the hydralisk (he said with no lack of sarcasm). Sure, you snipe the infestor no problem, but then what do you do? Your ghosts cost more money than the infestor it just sniped, they force an unwanted techlab onto your barracks, they're too slow to keep up with a stimmed bio army and their stupid pop guns don't do any damage except maybe to zerglings (always takes 2 shots from a ghost to kill a ling btw, regardless of upgrades on either side), which they can't micro against because again, they're too slow. If I want a late game cloaking unit, my choice is banshees. A single cloaked banshee can do more damage to an undefended expansion than a nuke can and it costs less money. (banshee = 150, 100 + 200, 200 for cloak. Ghost = 200, 100 + 150, 50 for the academy + 100, 100 for the nuke + 150, 150 for personal cloaking. I don't include the cost of the starport because it's late game and I already have it for medivacs and viking production. Also, in a straight up fight, the banshee survives longer and does more damage)
What's great about cloaked banshees in the late game is how incredibly apm taxing they are to deal with. They fly faster than overseers so even if zerg gets a few mutas or corrupters to shoo them away, the banshee runs out of detection range and it's safe to return to base, recharge some energy, repair and go again. Just a single banshee at an expo can do untold amounts of hurt or force the drones to run away, either way, mission accomplished, but mostly the goal is to tax the zerg's already over extended apm. Good luck keeping up with your injects (a difficult enough thing to do in the mid game, let alone the late game with 8+ hatcheries) when you have to simultaneously fend off 3 banshees in 3 different locations and keep tabs on the main terran army. There isn't a pro zerg yet who can do it, it's unlikely that you're going to hit anyone on the ladder between diamond and masters who can manage it.
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while both of those things are true, its important to note that the ghost nerf actually buffed snipes vs infestors, making it take 2 instead of 3 becuase of the armored bonus. So now instead of emping infestors people just snipe them.
Actually, snipe ignores armor (which is why it was so good vs ultras and broodlords previously) so it is still 2 snipes to kill an infestor. EMP is still really good vs infestor. The problem is the range. Most zergs will have their broodlords slightly in front to protect the infestors. Pre-nerf, terrans would snipe down the BLs out of range of the infestors. That was why it was so hard for zergs. Ghosts would snipe BLs from 10 range and they couldn't really close in to kill the ghosts because tanks and marines would be sitting behind them. Now, ghosts are not as effective when sniping so you need vikings to deal with them (marines get fungal'ed if they try to run under). So ghosts are left with EMP but since broodlords are in front, every hard to get in range of infestors.
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I feel that when zerg goes infestor/ling...as a Z player i start putting spores up 3-4 at common corners of my base where terran will most likely drop. Spores are extremly strong and kill most medevacs before they get 3 marines out. Its just how i deal with it. The new meta-game of Z is we need to start using more of our static D..sunkens and spores etc...
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On March 28 2012 16:45 vthree wrote:
Actually, snipe ignores armor (which is why it was so good vs ultras and broodlords previously) so it is still 2 snipes to kill an infestor.
It took 3 because the infestor would regen HP between two snipes landing. The Infestor would go from 90 to 45 to 46 instantly, and the 2nd snipe left the infestor at 1hp.
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On March 30 2012 00:28 Reqq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 16:45 vthree wrote:
Actually, snipe ignores armor (which is why it was so good vs ultras and broodlords previously) so it is still 2 snipes to kill an infestor. It took 3 because the infestor would regen HP between two snipes landing. The Infestor would go from 90 to 45 to 46 instantly, and the 2nd snipe left the infestor at 1hp.
Yeah, I think this is correct.
I still think ghosts are a viable late game tech choice vs infestor brood, you just have to be good at controlling them. I lost to a Terran yesterday on taldarim where I contained him to 2 bases for like 15 minutes and I thought I was so incredibly far ahead, but then he went allin with his 3/3 marine tank medi ghost army, and used 2 medis to drop his ghosts behind my army so when I kept my infestors to the back (I knew he had ghosts), they all got hit with one EMP and I lost all my broods to the snipes and marines since i had no fungals.
This whole trend of "ghosts are fcking useless zvt" is really overblown, just like the corresponding zerg trend of "mutas are fcking useless". Both units are still viable: in the case of mutas I think it's a maps thing at this point in time, there are a lot of maps where mutas are really bad (read: korhal, cloud kingdom, entombed, maybe antiga?) because of base layouts and map sizes.
When daybreak/metropolis hit the map pool I think you'll see a lot more pros going double spire muta on those maps.
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Been trying july's lair aggression play. Not too bad I must say. I think his style will be popular soon, with so many players starting to macro up instead of being aggressive. His style actually is very good for the current meta game
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I still use Mutalisks, with most terrans going Marauder Marine without even checking if I am making Infestors Mutalisks are basically a free win.
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On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote:
This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
First of all, Muta's were never "nerfed".. Where you get this rubbish I have no clue.
Secondly, Muta's are FAR from worthless in ZvP.. That statement is absolutely ridiculous. Going fast 3 base and starting Roaches, and then transitioning to Muta from there after stopping an all-in, or denying their fast third is insanely hard to deal with as Protoss. Even if you can't deny the Protoss third, there is a window of time where they are very vulnerable to Muta harass after taking that third base (because their army is spread so thin over 3 bases, and you can do a ton of damage with Muta harass).
Thirdly, Muta's shouldn't offer a way to "seal" a game. They're a harass unit. And I can even argue that they actually can seal a game for the Zerg player when used on the right maps in both ZvT, and quite easily in ZvP.
There are so many absurd statements in your post that I don't even know where to begin, and I don't even have time to address all of them.
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Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore.
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On April 06 2012 02:11 nuMi22 wrote:
Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore.
1. Terran makes an INVESTMENT to defend his base with turrets and/or keep units there.
2. You get full map control and air dominance
3. You can severly punish and/or pressure a greedy or risk-taking terran by abusing your mobility
---- very atrocious, indeed....
Honestly, the only reason I see people abandoning mutas is because it just requires more APM than sitting around in your base with infestor ling while rushing for the zerg death ball. And after Stephanos entry to the scene I think most zergs have realized exactly how powerful the ling infestor mix is when coupled with brood lords or ultralisks.
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On April 06 2012 08:23 virgol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:11 nuMi22 wrote:
Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore. 1. Terran makes an INVESTMENT to defend his base with turrets and/or keep units there. 2. You get full map control and air dominance 3. You can severly punish and/or pressure a greedy or risk-taking terran by abusing your mobility ---- very atrocious, indeed.... Honestly, the only reason I see people abandoning mutas is because it just requires more APM than sitting around in your base with infestor ling while rushing for the zerg death ball. And after Stephanos entry to the scene I think most zergs have realized exactly how powerful the ling infestor mix is when coupled with brood lords or ultralisks.
Infestor play gives you "muscle" way earlier than mutalisk play, mutalisk play even in good position (you did economy dmg) generally means late game scenario game vs terran, while infestor can actually punish terran at for example 2-2 timing.
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On April 06 2012 08:23 virgol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:11 nuMi22 wrote:
Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore. 1. Terran makes an INVESTMENT to defend his base with turrets and/or keep units there. 2. You get full map control and air dominance 3. You can severly punish and/or pressure a greedy or risk-taking terran by abusing your mobility ---- very atrocious, indeed.... Honestly, the only reason I see people abandoning mutas is because it just requires more APM than sitting around in your base with infestor ling while rushing for the zerg death ball. And after Stephanos entry to the scene I think most zergs have realized exactly how powerful the ling infestor mix is when coupled with brood lords or ultralisks.
No, it's cuz of the ghost nerf. Right now Terran has no effective answer to Hive. Ghosts did very well vs Zerg hive compositions, and critically, they were integral in fighting both BL / infestor and Ultra / infestor comps (making Terran way less succeptible to tech switches). Obviously that doesn't work now, so while terrans scramble to relearn lategame TvZ and find new ways of dealing with the deathball, Zergs have realized it's entirely possible to defend with ling / infestor while rushing to a hive tech composition with a fairly even economy. You're still playing the midgame, but at the same time ur essentially rushing to the awesome BL or Ultra / infestor composition without having to spend gas on units in between to stay alive (mutas).
This was known a while ago, but it got way more popular now that Terrans are left without a solid answer to Hive. Obviously mutas still work, as evidenced by the fact that they see plenty of use in professional play. To say otherwise is just stupid and a knee jerk reaction. Obviously there are reasons mutas suck, but there are also reasons mutas are great. Infestors have their pros and cons too. It's just the patch led to a new way to ZvT (or gave more viability to an old way i guess), so obviously mutas aren't seen as much. It's a new style, it hasn't been analyzed as much, and I'm sure Terran has several potential options they need to explore before we can say infestors >>> mutas.
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Why are people saying muta's are a dying unit? I see IMLosira and oGsJookto using them fairly often. Just because you don't know how to utilize muta's doesn't mean you should jump to insane conclusions. -__-
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On April 06 2012 08:43 JTouche wrote:
Why are people saying muta's are a dying unit? I see IMLosira and oGsJookto using them fairly often. Just because you don't know how to utilize muta's doesn't mean you should jump to insane conclusions. -__-
Just something I've noticed, but koreans seem to be always behind on the metagame. For example in ZvP, they were using roach hydra corrupter months after people developed away from that.
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I think the reason people are going to infestors is because of the shitty maps like antiga. There is no airspace for mutas to harass, the lack of counter-attack routes to cut off reinforcements or threaten base trades that are the only reason ling/bane/muta works in ZvT and forces T to stay in his base instead of push and win every game at higher level play, and the bases are super close, so T always takes a greedy fast third that they normally couldn't take, and Z can't do anything about the third like they normally can with ling/bane/muta, so Z deals with this fast third play by just going fast hive and teching quickly, and it also makes defending drops and pressure easier because the bases are closer so infestors can get around to deal with drops easier. You don't need mutas on certain maps to deal with drops because of how close the bases are.
it's not that mutas are outdated or bad, it's that on certain maps, infestors are actually viable - usually maps that are very T favored, that muta play can't really work on.
Just something I've noticed, but koreans seem to be always behind on the metagame. For example in ZvP, they were using roach hydra corrupter months after people developed away from that.
I don't think so... They are usually way ahead in the metagame. They tend to play a much more aggressive style, so in lower pro levels, you use infestors (destiny comes to mind), but at the code s ++++ level, if you go infestors, you just die to such tight timings, because everyone has such great micro, as well as better game knowledge, and know when they can move out and pressure 'safely'. They are just more active with their units, even if they don't attack, they are always moving them around to their full extent.
That said, I think a lot of people would say that pros like nestea or losira, who were the best of the best a few months ago, are now outdated and no longer relevant. Now, it's DRG, or stephano, that is forging the game. Not my words, totally not my words. Just repeating something I've heard GMs say, that people still think that nestea or whomever was top of the pack a few months ago, is still the best.
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EPT
