EPT[D] The State of Mutalisks in ZvT - Page 5
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 17 2012 16:50 Belial88 wrote: Might be a bit over the top, but I'm pretty sure 0/0 ling/bane will just tear through 3/3 marines without any kind of support. If you really believe that, there's no point arguing. BBS got nerfed out of existance in SC2 because the marine US such a ridiculously strong unit. Trying to make an argument that 0/0 speedlings can crush 3/3 marines is laughable. Given equal ups, a non-stimmed marine will kill 1 1/2 lings before he goes down. A 3/3 marine will kill 2 lings and be ready for more. Apply stim and a little bit of micro and now each marine is worth 3-4 lings. Why did I even bother typing this, you're obviously trolling. | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you. If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires. No problem man, no problem - Stephano does that all the time, Nestea quite often  . | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On March 18 2012 03:06 Jermstuddog wrote: If you really believe that, there's no point arguing. BBS got nerfed out of existance in SC2 because the marine US such a ridiculously strong unit. Trying to make an argument that 0/0 speedlings can crush 3/3 marines is laughable. Given equal ups, a non-stimmed marine will kill 1 1/2 lings before he goes down. A 3/3 marine will kill 2 lings and be ready for more. Apply stim and a little bit of micro and now each marine is worth 3-4 lings. Why did I even bother typing this, you're obviously trolling. You are aware I said ling with bane support against mmarines with no tanks or medivacs, right? Your crazy. | ||
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chip789
Canada199 Posts
On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP. Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2 They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP. I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing. Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general. Mutas don't deliver. While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent. Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down. Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games. I completely agree with this. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
If Terran goes mech Muta harass becomes nearly impossible since Terran players will just position Thors around a couple missile turrets in the base to deter any initial Muta harassment. If Terran goes standard Marine/Tank then Mutas become useful for harass but the cost of the Muta tech puts the Zerg player behind in both upgrades and tech especially when compared to the more versatile ling/bling/infestor. Also not to mention that once the late game hits, all that supply tied up in Mutas becomes essentially worthless unless you just want to patrol them around your expansions to pick off drops. It seems that Muta is just a little too much high risk low reward. | ||
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
In case you were wondering, yes, this has happened to me. I managed to get superior positioning off, but it was a nightmare to clinch that game- ended up being a starvation game. So ragey. | ||
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clik
United States319 Posts
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
On March 18 2012 07:44 clik wrote: I used to go muta but lately I've been dealing with 3 cc tank/helion/thor/banshees, turret rings. Pulling my hair out against that. The mutas just become an expensive scout. Same-I haven't played against a macro Terran before, and it is SO hard for me to deal with atm. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 17 2012 06:52 JDub wrote: 7 mutas with 1/1 is way worse than 9 mutas with 1/0 (not to mention spire and +1 defense is 300 gas, not 200). In fact 8 mutas with 0/0 is better than 7 mutas with 1/0 (Belial made a whole thread specifically about upgrading mutas to show this). The point of going double spire would not be to hit some timing when 1/1 kicks in, but to have a much more powerful army once you hit max. If you get your upgrades late or with 1 spire, you can hit max supply when you only have 1-2 upgrades finished. The problem is upgrades take a long time and there will be no way to make your maxed army stronger besides just waiting for them to finish (assuming you stay on ling/bling/muta). If you go double spire then your muta flock will be weaker than it would be otherwise for a while, but as you max out and reach 3/3 with your mutas, you end up with a flock that doesn't just melt against fully upgraded units of your opponent. All that is to say, I agree with you ShatterZer0 -- "who knows, maybe". Well, ultimately, this is the only honest answer. I'm not saying I know the future, I'm just saying I'd be willing to place "it," whatever it is, on the line. If I'm wrong, people can make fun of me. I just think I'm right :p | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Thors and Marines both have always crushed mutaliskplay, it's the biomech openings (early tanks) that made mutalisks strong. Add to that that Terrans don't waste marines anymore in useless drops and pushes "to put on pressure" while they macro harder, which just means that you are not going to have those mass mutaball vs small marine group engagements ever. You will always fight groups of marines or Thors that straight up crush mutalisks. Infestors on the other hand can deal with bigger groups of marines and allow for faster Broodlord transitions, which is necessary to stand a chance against a maxed Terran army. That being said, mutalisks still rock on the ladder (at least up to midmasters on EU), because most Terrans still go for the marine/tank 9-10min marinewaste push (alternatively double marinewaste drop) and start their third after that, which is the optimal position to just go S-TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT till the 20min mark and win with by having one mutalisk per marine. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
I know that if I can position well and keep equal or ahead on upgrades Zerg usually cannot trade cost efficiently and will eventually lose, YET! if you open up with the usual Zerg opening now with delayed lair 1-1 upgrades into 2-2 and delayed mutalisks I think its a very good option. Mutas force turrets and force terran to be a bit more defensive than he usually is. It allows you complete map control and even though 200/200 vs 200/200 muta/ling/bane is nearly worthless the Terran basically can't (or at least I cannot...) move out early because it feels terrible and they delayed mutas will lead to good upgrades (usually superior to Terrans) and tons of units... Don't know. I don't claim to be good in Terran vs Zerg, but I have much less trouble against ling/infestor than against muta/ling/bane even if I think muta/ling/bane needs to be played better + doesn't allow mistakes while ling/infestor does allow small hickups in your game. | ||
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FlyingTurtle
United States248 Posts
Also, I disagree with the notion of double spire. On top of the fact that Spires cost far more than Evo/EngineeringBay/Forge, Mutas don't scale well with upgrades. Attack upgrades don't increase percent damage output against a hypothetical 0-armor-enemy for mutas as much as they do for tier 1 units like rines or lings: 0 attack- 9 damage +1- 10 damage, a 11.11% damage output increase. +2- 11, 22.22 % increase +3- 12, 33.33% increase Lings: 0- 5 damage +1- 6 damage, a 20% damage output increase +2- 7 damage, 40% increase +3- 8 damage, 60% increase This problem is compounded by the fact that the glaive doesn't get the full +1 attack upgrade on each bounce; a 0/0 muta vs 0/0 marine fight would be much better for the zerg than a 3/3 muta vs 3/3 marine fight. Therefore, Mutas upgrades become worse in comparison to enemy infantry upgrades as time wears on. To top it off, double spire costs a LOT more than one might think: 1/1 single spire: 200/200 for the spire + 100/100 for level 1 attack + 150/150 for level 1 armor = 450/450 3/3 double spire: 400/400 (keep in mind that since this is early, the costs are even more dangerous) + 250/250 for level 1 + 400/400 for level 2 + 550/550 for level 3 = 1600/1600 That's a 1050/1050 difference, worth 10 mutas. In other words, since the cost is so damn high and the difference between a 1/1 muta and a 3/3 muta is only about a 22.22% worth increase, you would have to make roughly 45 mutas to justify the costs. This almost certainly rules out a tech switch away from an air-heavy composition. Although obviously these numbers are inaccurate considering the differing opportunity costs at each stage for each upgrade and the differing percentage worth against upgraded units, it still means a heavy, inflexible investment. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
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SeventhPride
712 Posts
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Sleet
United States139 Posts
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
Some of the better Zerg players I play who choose to go Mutalisk stop at around 12-13, get armor upgrades for their air (most of BL's DPS is the broodlings themselves and the splash damage from Siege tanks. 0 attack vikings take a long time killing 1-2 armor broodlords) and transition into infestors and broodlords, with Mutalisks flying around killing stray marines, preventing drops and clean up any surviving armies that are too tank heavy. You don't have to JUST go Mutalisk, or JUST Infestor. You have to be smart about how you use both. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
As a terran player myself, i always like to play vs Mutaling because i know i don't have to worry about Hive tech too soon. But i think its mainly because at my level, zerg don't know how to counter attack proprely. A counter attack mutaling player is nightmare as Terran. The terran army is slow as hell in this match up, even slower than a protoss army. I can agree hat maps are getting a bit stupid about not putting even a tiny space around bases for muta to navigate. You see less banshee play because of that too. | ||
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