EPT[D] The State of Mutalisks in ZvT - Page 2
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you. If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires. Those are so damn slow to get going that I could see it as a problem. By the time you get 1/1 upgrades going with 5 mutas out I could have gotten 6 pathogen gland infestors. The strength between those two is night and day when it comes to holding off midgame pushes. | ||
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
You only need like 10 mutas without ups if you're careful with them and tuck them in areas where marines can't get you. | ||
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GoStu
Canada60 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you. If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires. I feel like the issue with going double Spire to keep even in upgrades is the cost of the Spire: 200/200 for the building is a lot to double down on compared to the 150/0 cost of a Forge, 125/0 cost of an Engineering Bay, or 75+drone / 0 cost of an Evolution Chamber ... it also takes 100 seconds to morph a spire compared to 35 seconds for the Engineering Bay or 45 seconds of a Forge. Also, flyer carapace costs more than Infantry Armor / Ground Armor / Ground Weapons / Infantry weapons, etc. I feel like you're investing a hell of a lot more into structures to just stay even on upgrades at best. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
a) they are map dependent, as they are great on maps like Shakuras or Taldarim but trash on ones like Cloud Kingdom or entombed. b) They are really hard to use compared to the alternatives. Playing ling infestor is pretty braindead and doesn't require much skill. You don't have to make many hard judgments about unit allocation or tech timings, while the muta player has to know when he needs to stop adding mutas and tech to hive which is very easy to go wrong with. You don't have to worry about microing too much as infestors are pretty basic while the muta player has to manage their banelings and mutas constantly in fights. Most importantly, the muta player has to babysit their mutas constantly and play very aggressive with harass where if they misclick they can lose everything in seconds, while the infestor player can simply turtle and tech to hive. The only area where the muta player has an easier time is with handling drops, and even then, spare lings/spine precautions by the ling infestor player can make it pretty simple. Perhaps most importantly post-patch, going muta increases the time you spend on lair tech and thus makes it tougher to survive until hive, when Zerg gains an overwhelming advantage. When you go infestor ling you'll be teching to hive much earlier and thus you really only need to survive one serious threat before you can get your monstrous hive army. On the other hand, the muta player might have to deal with 2-4 threatening moments in the midgame before they can get their hive tech. Mutas are not objectively weaker and are in many cases a better choice on some maps. However, from a zerg's pov why would you do something exponentially more difficult to gain a minimum benefit in most cases? | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
The reason infestors are so popular is because they function like siege tanks. They give you long ranged space control and punish unit clumping. Mutalisks have a place in ZvT late game I think, just not early like we've seen in the past. Don't worry, they will find their way back in once Terrans learn that starport units are useful in the late game. | ||
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heyitskez
Australia58 Posts
At the moment I see a lot of zergs kinda going for fast-ish 3 bases droning a lil bit but then trying to put on pressure a lil bit and they get caught trying to do to many things at once, whilst not really committing to anything, which is a terrible idea vs a terran who is macroing hard of 3 bases with heavy ups. The benefit of mutas is terran _should_ be relatively scared to move out of his base so because of this you expand a shit tonne around the map and tech. (keeping in mind u should have taken a quick 4th so u will have gas for mutas + tech) Mutas of course are still good vs 2 base play because terran doesnt have the gas for 2 engi bays, tanks, marines ups, medivacs and thors (if they wish to add in thors) However with this in mind maps do make a difference in what strat I choose to go with and I am currently trying to perfect the ling infestor into quick ultra style that is pretty good, as it does give you a lot of benefits and generally is easier to play provided you can deal with drops well. To deal with drops the most effective way ive seen/done is to leave 1 infestor at your outskirt bases (Ie usually ur main/3rd/4th depending on what time in game) with some lings maybe 1 or 2 banes if you like to mix banes into your composition and then have 4-5 spines and 1-2 spores for defense as you can afford it as youre generally not trading as much with infestor ling and its not as expensive so you can afford the extra money to put into your defenses, and GET OVIE SPEED for the love of all that is holy when I see players going ling infestor and not get ovie speed to scout for drops, manage expansions and anything else it makes my soul die a lil inside. *edit* For you Terran players out there, Im gonna tell you how to deal with ling infestor style. MEDIVACS!!!! Terran think tanks are the way to go as they shoot infestors but this is a direct herp-derp-what-unit-counters-what-style. The indirect coutner to infestors is not only dropping the zerg everywhere, but also massing a lot of medivacs AND KEEPING THEM ALIVE. Your medivacs are as important to keep alive as the zergs infestors are. 7-8 Marines with 6-7 medivacs is actually impossible to kill with Fungal growth, and if you can split your shit apart fairly well you will be able to deal with a pretty decent amount of lings/infestors with minimal tank support- like 1 fact tank production. Second, mix in a few marauders, these are great to stim and try snipe infestors as they melt them, but also takes a fair few fungals to kill, lings take a while to kill them so marines can dps better, and generally u might have some extra gas saved up so it can be good to get I find. Lastly, dont be afraid to expand quite aggresively against ling infestor style either. Ling infestor into quick ultra is generally really good against terran in head on engagements but can lack if you are stretching them with drops while taking a quickish 4th base whilst macroing really hard on your 3 bases, the thing to watch out for is ling coutner attacks, but if you are pushing them aroudn 14 mins which is standard of 3 early 3 CC timing then they are predominately going to be relying on lings for the meat of their army, so ur 4th should be relatively safe Hope this helps! | ||
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Grohg
United States243 Posts
One of the greatest benefits of not using mutas is the ability to tech to Hive much faster and getting a spire only for broodlords in the late game. If you open with a muta style, broods will come later in the game and typically be much harder to use efffectively. If you tech to infestors straight away, you instantly have access to Hive, you get powerful spellcasters that will last for the rest of the game and you allow yourself to expand with the robust mineral heavy economy you build up from ling/roach based armies. Mutas are a much harder transition to T3. The amount you must invest into a flock is incredibly high and at a certain point, they are simply supply that would be better spent elsewhere. Mutaslisk play is all about taking a lead from harrass early and keeping that lead for the remainder of the game. If your mutas slip into a pocket of marines once or clump up as a Thor pops, your one advantage is lost in a split second. Overall, they are still great units but I think infestors still make more sense on almost any newer map in the pool. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On March 16 2012 10:01 Ver wrote: Please also remember in winter arena finals where DRG demolished MKP with mutas on Shakuras. Mutas are quite good but: a) they are map dependent, as they are great on maps like Shakuras or Taldarim but trash on ones like Cloud Kingdom or entombed. b) They are really hard to use compared to the alternatives. Playing ling infestor is pretty braindead and doesn't require much skill. You don't have to make many hard judgments about unit allocation or tech timings, while the muta player has to know when he needs to stop adding mutas and tech to hive which is very easy to go wrong with. You don't have to worry about microing too much as infestors are pretty basic while the muta player has to manage their banelings and mutas constantly in fights. Most importantly, the muta player has to babysit their mutas constantly and play very aggressive with harass where if they misclick they can lose everything in seconds, while the infestor player can simply turtle and tech to hive. The only area where the muta player has an easier time is with handling drops, and even then, spare lings/spine precautions by the ling infestor player can make it pretty simple. Perhaps most importantly post-patch, going muta increases the time you spend on lair tech and thus makes it tougher to survive until hive, when Zerg gains an overwhelming advantage. When you go infestor ling you'll be teching to hive much earlier and thus you really only need to survive one serious threat before you can get your monstrous hive army. On the other hand, the muta player might have to deal with 2-4 threatening moments in the midgame before they can get their hive tech. Mutas are not objectively weaker and are in many cases a better choice on some maps. However, from a zerg's pov why would you do something exponentially more difficult to gain a minimum benefit in most cases? I don't disagree with a thing you said, but a little something about that DRG vs MKP game on Shakuras. MKP was in a ridiculously good position with 3 CC's while DRG got his third sniped and was stuck on 2 base. MKP then donates his whole army in a push then tries to move out his third CC with no army which gets killed. In that position the vast majority of the time the Terran is going to come out ahead. DRG kinda lucked out that game. | ||
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qwertyindeed
151 Posts
you dont want to be adding on muta count when Terran have 3 bases and good turret placement and then get a late infestation pit with late 2nd evo. + zergs learned that you dont need mutas overall to deal with drops (in most cases) by splitting their lings and better ol spread. I keep atleast an infestor at the outer bases like toss keep hts (for the brave terrans that try doom drops)- otherwise a spine or 2 will buy enough time for your army to get back | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas. I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand. The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion. This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors. | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
We're going to see an evolution in how mutas are used in the next little while, I think. Rushing them off 2 bases is probably a thing of the past, but people will find ways to use them. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:11 darkscream wrote: Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks. But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make. ... Uh. Every time someone is dumb enough to try a lategame muta transition, I laugh at their shitty upgrades on mutas, inability to win a single battle vs a full fledged macro terran with any decent number of marine tank medivac thor, and smile when I realize that they're gonna have almost no infestors, broodlords, or ultras. Seriously, I can't think of a single reason to transition to lategame mutas.. | ||
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
Also, a strength long-associated with mutalisk play was that you could shut down drops - nowadays people realise if you just split up groups of zerglings with an infestor drops are really easy to deal with another way. This is just one of many reasons infestors are a lot more favoured than they have been in the past. | ||
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SeventhPride
712 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you. If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires. Actually, nestea tried it out in z v p against genius where he went double spire. leenock tried double spire a few times against terran, but they both lost. I think its viable but just the meta game is not suited for mutalisk play currently since terrans have now brought along a few thors with them and know its fine to spam auto turrets around their base. | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
On March 16 2012 09:01 Micket wrote: It's all map dependent. The current trends of maps are very anti-muta, possibly for ZvP reasons, but mainly because of 2 base all in reasons. Hence, lots of chokes and easy 3 bases. If Taldarim style maps return in force, you will see mutas... a lot. If maps like Antiga continue to roll out, I cant see mutas staying around. Terran macro builds are literally amazing on that map, and super safe too. this. User was warned for this post | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
However, to note, I think that downgrading to mutas at specific points in the game if you have the gas can be very very powerful. | ||
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heyitskez
Australia58 Posts
I wasn't implying that ling infestor is gimmicky i just know a lot of terrans are qqing about it and that definitely helps deal with the problem of wtf do I do agaisnt these infestors when fungal destroys my marines and then they launch infested terrans into my tanks with lings. And I said keeping the medivacs alive are the secret cauz i feel a lot of terrans just drop, set it and forget it and the medivac dies, but with a lil more multitasking (and yes the tactics i suggested for terran is very multi task dependent) by keeping the medivacs and a few of the units alive really stretches the zergs multi tasking and can be quite effective, coupled with keeping their medivacs alive in direct engagements can be extremely effective if done at the right time, IE when zerg is relying on lings + fungal | ||
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zGRavensfan
1 Post
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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