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On March 16 2012 12:11 docvoc wrote:
I think that muta is a good thing to have for later but not something that is a real killer anymore. The stephano style is much harder to hold, i play protoss but i see a lot of terrans falling for that ling festor ultra mix. What would be great to see is zergs getting 5 mutas to kill workers in one shot and to hold off drops and the rest is units.
muta are so bad in small numbers especially mid-late game the terran could just drop his 5 marines stim and have a good chance at taking out most of those muta.
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On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote:
@heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320203¤tpage=2#36
morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol.
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Metagame is changing in the past few months, starting to see Mutalisks more in ZvP than ZvT lol. Mutalisks will continue to pressure and tear apart Terrans until a top level, where players like MVP see Mutalisks as Zerg throwing away resources.
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I wonder if a zerg player were to get 0/3 upgrades for their muta if that would be better than the 2/0, as it would better prepare for the broodlord, then of course double evo for the 3/3 ground upgrades for the lings then the broodlings.
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Mutas are still super good, it's just the current set of maps that's making them super super tough to use. Prime example is Cloud Kingdom - the terran third defends a huge approach path to his main, so there's only two places to harass and two places to counterattack.
You still see them every game on taldarim, and there's a reason for that. Honestly I hate making infestors before you get broodlords, it's this slow unit that has an aoe spell but sick good terrans are good at drops and multitasking and abusing mobility which you're voluntarily giving up making ling infestor
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mutas ARE necessary zvt, you need them to snipe tanks and stop drops, the difference is you dont get a muta flock just a good 14 mutas to harass and stop drops...
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Muta timings and marine micro have been essentially figured out by terrans. Opening up Mutas just puts you behind because your upgrades are delayed and your Hive tech comes later.
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On March 16 2012 12:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote:
@heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320203¤tpage=2#36morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol.
I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it.
He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged.
If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out.
Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position.
Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
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I feel it's almost impossible to win a zvt with mutas in close-air/non-cross positions without counter-attacks doing damage. I always have to leave a small group of lings near their base and hope they don't raise their depots when they move out. Its possibie with longer rush distance. Mutas can pin terrans in their base better and banelings mines force many more scans.
I experimented with double spires for a bit. Instead of going double spires right off the bat, a much safer transition would be going air attack 1 then get your 2nd spire while upgrading air armor 1. Then, you can start 2-2 and 3-3 at the same time. Once you hit critical mass with 2-2, always go for OCs instead of chasing scvs. Force a base trade while you have the advantage of baneling mines. They can have all the scvs they want, as long their mining bases are cut down and they are forced to save scans, they are pretty screwed. Oh, and play it like mass muta ZvP. Spam spines since your food count will be invested into mutas. They give you time to kill the OCs or production buildings.
That being said, with the current map pool, it's still easier to go infestors. Mutas ling bling = tax your multi-tasking with the no-brainer counter-attacks + pull back to flank. Spreading out burrowed infestors creates a more fun game for the zerg when we can make many more interesting tactical decisions.
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On March 16 2012 10:02 heyitskez wrote:The benefit of mutas is terran _should_ be relatively scared to move out of his base so because of this you expand a shit tonne around the map and tech. (keeping in mind u should have taken a quick 4th so u will have gas for mutas + tech)
Really? I'm not seeing this as much. It seems like terrans are getting pretty comfortable pushing out even with mutas around. As long as they turret up their base and leave their marines rallied there, they'll be fine against any harrassment-sized (<16) ball of mutas. And they know you'll have to find a way to deal with their army using basically just lings and banelings.
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On March 16 2012 08:11 darkscream wrote:
Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
The first post pretty much sums up my view.
I feel a that mutalisks ought to be fast, or really late. People going 3 or even 4 hatch (1 macro) into mutas are delaying them too long to make the harass effective. That early, they're used mainly as a harass item and a drop killer, in a straight up fight they're pretty poor. A lot of players skip siege tech early to get lots of medivacs, which end up getting in before later mutas, and allow a high enough marine count to nullify mutalisk harass; that or they take a quick 3 bases, get a quick siege tech, and turtle with few drops, making mutas again somewhat obsolete.
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On March 16 2012 21:27 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote:
@heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320203¤tpage=2#36morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol. I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it. He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged. If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out. Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position. Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
I don't think Morrow is really "assuming" anything. His argument is based off his own personal experience at the pro level playing TvZ. As he said, with a medivac out you can see exactly where your opponent's army is (especially when you have ~5 infestors, you aren't going to want to kill single medivacs using pure infestor energy), and thus not get caught unsieged.
I don't understand how you can say that muta builds are "gimmicky" -- they've been the standard for ZvT for a long, long time, and therefore by definition cannot be a gimmick. Ling-infestor and ling-bane-muta are both solid builds, and not gimmicks.
Gimmick:
1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere.
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On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote:
I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
You wouldn't believe it, but he is right, Stephano has been doing this lately and i have tried it and it works wonders. It would seem weird, but it works!!! You can even fit in an evo chamber early game (stephano does that too).
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On March 16 2012 21:27 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote:
@heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320203¤tpage=2#36morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol. I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it. He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged. If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out. Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position. Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
Wtf does gimmicky even mean O-o
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On March 16 2012 08:11 darkscream wrote:
Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
but you have no upgrades and its gna be 0/0 mutalisks again 3/3 marines and when you go muta first the upgrades might not even be 1/1 so they dont drop down like flies and muta ling bling works just aswell if not better than infestor ling, but infestor ling is better defensively
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RIP muta. You won me many a game a few months ago but as of late, infestor/ling does the job better and quicker. You shall be missed.
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On March 16 2012 13:16 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
mutas ARE necessary zvt, you need them to snipe tanks and stop drops, the difference is you dont get a muta flock just a good 14 mutas to harass and stop drops...
Just NO. Mutas are not necessary in ZvT and have become relegated to a situational units based on the map. You can deal with drops with good overlord spread and spores and spines at every base with ling support. Also, ling/infestor is better against marine tank because infestors are so much more effective then banelings because fungal prevents marine splitting and doesnt cost gas barring the original cost of the infestor. Once the marines are gone, double upgraded lings just melt tanks.
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Im not sure, i feel as if you arent a top tier player it is much harder to handle muti's, You have to stim and tower up just to be able to stop them half ass at a low level because they are so fast and that splash.
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On March 16 2012 08:51 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 08:26 jrkirby wrote:
If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas. If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs. Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
Pro Terrans do try to focus banelings with tanks if they can/have time. Your comparison is also a bit off.
As for OP's topic, its just a phase, mutas were used heavily in ZvT for a long time with a lot of pros who would make mutas every ZvT if the game developed into mid-game. Its like in ZvP, mutas were hardly ever used in this match up by pros then they were heavily used leaving many a Protoss player raging on trying to deal with them effectively. So currently mutas are not used too much and 2base muta is hardly ever seen, who knows in a couple of months they could become more popular than ever in this match up.
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On March 17 2012 02:18 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 21:27 Jermstuddog wrote:On March 16 2012 12:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote:
@heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320203¤tpage=2#36morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol. I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it. He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged. If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out. Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position. Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general. Wtf does gimmicky even mean O-o
unreliable, can be hard countered, requires opponent to make mistake
stuff like that
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EPT
