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Hi all me again and writing another guide but this time for zerg vs protoss. I have been watching DRG's zvp and after watching his ro16 code S match (I believe) was when I started to see another way to play zvp then how I was.
I was struggling in this match up a lot for probably all of this year, until I saw that game. That game changed my zvp for the better. A match up I used to lose a lot I now win more then I lose by a good margin. The MLG winter Arena replays of DRG, only allowed me to fall in love with it more and make some of my build a bit stronger then before adjustements, look at timings and when to be aggressive. I have been trying to do this effectively for a couple weeks and finally got it to a good point  .
Not only do I find this build very strong, but it is also a lot more fun to play vs protoss now doing this style rather then what I was trying before.
So for starters I did not create this flat out or randomly think of this, I copied the idea from DRG and made slight adjustements to my liking (like my other guides, I get the ideas from pro's and just change it from there, the only guide that is unique to me would be roach opener)
Another thing to note, all the replays are from the korean server and I believe all 5 games are pretty good games to show the beginning and for those curious my transition into mid/late game.
For those curious on my other guides you can locate them here:
Zerg vs Zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Zerg vs Zerg Muta play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282954
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
Zerg vs Terran roach opener: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582
Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
Now to start things off!
--------Introduction--------
This is to explain the concept of this build. This is not some cheesy gimmick or anything, it’s a more aggressive way to play zvp with only tier 2 tech for awhile. The composition starts off as normal roach/ling to defend 2 base all ins while teching to infestation pit. Now if you see the toss go for a fast third base I have been adding in drop play to force protoss to multi task.
So far I have been having a lot of success with the build. This build is best used vs Forge fast expand due to being able to grab a fast three base. For a non forge FE build just play normal I haven’t really faced it, but I know you couldn’t do this build exactly just because of the late gas.
I have personally found this a much more effective (and fun) method of playing zerg vs protoss lately. I have also increased my win rate after doing this (love you DRG). So now to bring you the build:
--------Build order--------
15 pool
14/15 supply – Drone scout
16 hatch (if blocked as soon as possible)
Queen after spawning pool with 2 sets of lings
22/4:15 – take your third
6:00-6:15 – sacrifice 2 overlords (one in main, other in natural)
6:00-6:15 – Evo chamber
6:15-6:30 – take three gases
Ling speed 1st 100 gas
7:00 – 7:30 – Start lair
7:00 – 7:30 – start Roach warren
as soon as lair finishes infestation pit
If you see toss take a third start drop tech + overlord speed
Now I am going to explain the build in a little more detail now that you see the BO. For starters I know DRG takes his gas at like 6:30-6:45, I don’t know how he does it and lives but I don’t vs super fast gateway rushes. If you scout a Robo or stargate I imagine you can do the 6:30/6:45 version and be fine, but I am not sure how this deals with fast voidray + zealot pressure.
I always put down an evo chamber that early because I do like to start carapace at a decent time normally, or if he is going stargate I can also plop down spores immediately. I drone scout at 14/15 to make sure he is forge FE’ing, because you don’t want to do this build vs a non forge FE, trust me!
If you see the toss take a third, I have been going roach/ling/infestor + drop play aggressive while taking a fourth. Make sure all 3 bases are saturated as you want to be spending all your money on this. Once you have 3 saturated bases and infestors out and ready, it's time to be super aggressive. You should be jamming units down his throat and dropping his main + natural with some roaches and lings. This way you are pretty much guaranteed to do some kind of damage or at worst you will trade more cost effectively vs the protoss army (he will be using warp ins to deal with the drops).
I have been having tremendous success with this and I was able to tech to hive and get broodlords just fine.
I highly recommend you not use 1 control group either. With this strategy you should be trying ling run by’s into the main while attacking his third and not just 1A and hope you do damage as this won't work with decent FF from the toss.
The beauty of this build with drop play is you will most likely do damage unless you don't control well at all or you get a litte unlucky and your drops get killed before they get there or something to that effect. Now if you see colossi you should throw down a spire but remain aggressive, do not back off and wait for corruptors. You can try to keep his colossi count down so that corruptors aren't a must (I have been having good success with this as well with fungel and able to kill the colossi). The infestors are so nice when he goes stalker/sentry/immortal, it makes your aggression possible as just roach/ling will get slaughtered by stalker/sentry/immortal if the toss is controlling properly.
You should be making units non stop while also adding in more drones to get your fourth base up and running. This does require some good multi tasking to do this build effectively as you will want to drop for example 4 roaches in the main, natural and then attack with your main force.
You can add mutalisks into the fray if you feel, but I recommend main/natural first unless he has colossi or something that need to die. You will notice in one of the replays with this guide that I am able to keep him from getting that deathball or turtle tech. I am able to keep his colossi from getting to the critical, was able to keep his army down even though he held me off and eventually able to win the game.
If you have any questions please feel free to ask!
--------The advantages--------
The advantages to this build, well to me the first thing are it is a lot more fun.
Being aggressive, dictating the game and expanding while doing this. You essentially have map control and he shouldn’t be able to do any harassment while you are expanding as he should be more focused on holding off ling runby’s/muta and the main attack force poking in to the third and what not. The drop play is very nice in forcing the protoss to multi task a ton so you have a higher probability of success.
This transitions nicely into bl/ling/infestor if you can’t kill him in the early game (for the most part, if he is completely stomping your pushes and dealing with your drops perfectly it'll be a lot harder, losing infestors is something you should be avoiding and dont' engage stupidly as that will cause you to lose).
Good at preventing the deathball while you go hive, you can be trading armies efficiently (and keeping colossi down if he has them so he doesn’t get the deathball)
--------The disadvantages--------
You will be gas starved (so this makes it harder to just transition into a ton of infestor/bl while being aggressive, so once you want to get into that composition, pull back, make some spines and make them)
To be honest the gas starved one is the only thing I can think of at the moment. I am sure some people will throw in something that is a disadvantage or something, so I will rely on those people for this part 
--------Replays--------
http://www.mediafire.com/?pq0my0hbhqs70tb
http://www.mediafire.com/?tn1y9kb25u2kd5w (updated 4-6-2012)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ki8otws0bl9hm50 (updated 4-6-2012)
Three replays, one has a late game scenario of me transitioning into tier 3.
Any questions, comments, concerns please feel free to post them I do reply to every question I can. Also any tips you want me to add or something feel free to suggest!
I would also highly recommend downloading the MLG winter arena and watching some of DRG's zvp style if you want to see more then these replays. His first game (might be second) game vs Sase shows this build for the most part and how gosu DRG is with it.
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Hello, read everything but havent seen the replays yet (cant atm).
Two questions:
1) Do you put down a 2nd evo chamber? if not, what do you upgrade from your 1 evo chamber. And if you do put down 2 evo chambers, do you go melee/ranged?
2) Why do you sacrifice ovies at 6.15? I feel like it is too early, i usually do it around 7min and feel like its a good timing.
Thanks for the guide, ill try it out later : )
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I hope this doesn't sound rude but isn't this just the standard build for ZvP? I don't think I've seen any openers besides this or 6/10 pool in months.
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On March 06 2012 17:23 SpeCiaL.. wrote:
Hello, read everything but havent seen the replays yet (cant atm).
Two questions:
1) Do you put down a 2nd evo chamber? if not, what do you upgrade from your 1 evo chamber. And if you do put down 2 evo chambers, do you go melee/ranged?
2) Why do you sacrifice ovies at 6.15? I feel like it is too early, i usually do it around 7min and feel like its a good timing.
Thanks for the guide, ill try it out later : )
I do put down a second evo, normally once my lair finishes and I have all three bases set up. Then I go carapace/air as I don't feel melee is ever worth it unless you want to add banelings and go more heavy ling/bane/muta (reason I did not add this into the guide is I have yet to add the banelings like DRG does yet).
When I sacrifice at 6:15 it seems perfect time to me, I'll see his stargate either just start or almost finish (both overlords will be in there a good time), I will also see how many gateways he is adding. There are times I have scouted at 7 minutes on accident and I ended up seeing his 2 stargate play to late and if I recall he did a ton of damage and won. 7 minutes is probably fine but I have had no issues with 6:15 and seeing what the toss is doing.
On March 06 2012 17:28 the`postman wrote:
I hope this doesn't sound rude but isn't this just the standard build for ZvP? I don't think I've seen any openers besides this or 6/10 pool in months.
Lots of zergs do different things in this match up, I have seen 2 base muta, 2 base infestor with 1/1 before lair, I have seen gas at 5:40 while having an early third. This heavily delayed gas till 6:20/6:30 isn't as common from watching streams and the high aggression DRG does with this I don't see much either (until recently of course).
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First, awesome guide!
Second, I would highly recommend Zergs at least try this style out, it is very very strong especially against the current ZvP meta-game. I hit this a lot on the ladder (I play Protoss) and it's tough to be able to do any effective harassment and take a third. Most of the modern PvZ builds revolve around 4 gates, some tech, and an early third base.
The only disadvantage to using this build from my experience (Masters NA / Diamond KR) is if protoss opts to go straight into immortal stalker with high gateway count off of two bases. In this case I think it would be best for zerg to just maintain his map control and wait for protoss' third as it will be late. What I would look for as a zerg player is a robo and a high stalker count, that will mean he is gearing up to do some serious pressure or at the very least his third will be later. You should be able to get the higher tech zerg units out and hit his third a little later if this is the case.
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I've tried this style before had some success with it but it dies pretty hard to warp prism play because the warp prism hits before mutas. You have to see it coming even when you scout the robo its not easy to tell what they are doing unless you get successful overseer scouts.
Its really annoying when that warp prism lands force fields the ramps and then just goes to town on your base taking out your base while you can't do a damn thing it usually hits around the 8-9 minute mark so its almost always a minute or two before mutas come out.
I really like roach/ling/Mutas.
The thing is its extremely risky if Protoss goes for a quick + 2 blink timing with sentries you can just die it may sound like i'm being a bit ridiculous but its kinda-weird how blizzard allowed Protoss cheaper upgrades when Protoss can basically just attack with a ground force while Zerg has to upgrade air/land units to properly combat Protoss.
I wonder what was going through their minds when they thought about this. Ever since that patch i've seen a huge change and i've just been early pooling and nexus blocking with hatches every game or nydus all-in because Protoss is the race where you have to outplay them and be twice the skill to seem to overcome them. It just feels like i'm climbing a hill every time i face Protoss.
I play against Terran and Zerg and its fine i love it i feel its balanced and realise my mistakes. But vs Protoss it just seems frustrating and insane i hate the match-up and can't stand it every time i hit them on the Ladder.
I will try this style a bit today and report back to this thread maybe with some success/fail story.
I know if you don't scout a robotics bay it means immortal or warpprism or blink stalker up cliff build.
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Would you recommend getting drop tech with this style, especially when a protoss takes a fast 3rd with a high sentry count? It gives you another access point, for putting lings in his main while you are attacking his 3rd.
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On March 06 2012 19:50 Oboeman wrote:
Would you recommend getting drop tech with this style, especially when a protoss takes a fast 3rd with a high sentry count? It gives you another access point, for putting lings in his main while you are attacking his 3rd.
Drop tech is great if you can get a roach/hydra/ling drop before Protoss gets enough Colossus out (usually you'd only do this strat when you're ahead) it works very well. Just make sure to drop most of the army directly over the Protoss army.
I made the mistake of dropping about 60% of my army too early and lost a game because of it. Protoss can really fight to the end when their army is coupled with a few force fields/building chokes/cannons.
You can also do this to punish an extremely early/sentry heavy build. It will just straight up kill them. I'd reccommend baneling drops though its probably the best route to go LiquidSheth does it a lot in ZvP or he used to on his stream anyways.
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I'm talking just for roach ling drop harass, not a committed hydra drop all in. Just another way to trade expendable units where he doesn't have as many forcefields available. If you drop enough roaches and lings in his main that a warp in isn't quite enough to deal with it, and he has to move bits of his army around, your multi-pronged pressure will do a lot more damage.
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Mutas are much better than some small drop harassment. With mutas, you have higher dps and can choose to attack and retreat at will. Drops are much harder to put on constant pressure and you can't really retreat.
Staying on lair tech means you have to do enough damage during trading of units or you will lose to the inevitable "death-push". Roaches don't do enough dps (also slow in chasing down probes) and lings (under-upgraded) get shredded by zealots warp-ins. Lack of dps and retreat options mean that it is not that urgent for toss to clean up the multi-pronged threat. As long as they save enough probes and not let too many buildings die, they can move around a bigger army to clean up area by area with superb cost efficiency.
On a side note, i wonder if anyone has a good solution to a well-executed warp prism harassment into immortal timing. Warp prism forces you to make units earlier and you can't even force them to commit their units due to shitty anti-air. Then, they come with a big timing with reinforcements right in your face. Zergs already have problem dealing with normal timing attacks, now this is one that forces you to have worse eco and absolutely no way to cut reinforcements.
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Thanks Blade! ^_^
What are some of your triggers that make you NOT go muta in zvp?
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been waiting for this guide! nice buraidu!
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How do you feel it compares to Stephano's style?
He use pretty much the same build,but he use first 100 gas for lair, second for ling speed, third for +1 range attack, 4th (unless aggression) for roach speed.
I feel the faster lair helps more than the faster ling speed in my play.
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I love this style of ZvP, ive been doing something similar for a few months.
Some suggestions and questions!
-How would a slightly delayed gateway / cyber core affect your build? Im not entirely sure of the timing personally, I know many zergs say evo and roach warren between 7:00 and 7:30 and ofcourse the gate/cyber timing is crucial when making that decision.
-burrow is so good with this runby ling, roach, muta style tho it might require even more multitasking. What I love is hitting 3 places at once, do a runby hit the main and the nat, do major attack on the 3rd. Main is zealots vs your lings so you burrow, natural is some roaches just burrow, his army positioned well at his 3rd. So run more lings to his natural unborrow ect ect. Not too expensive for what it can force from your opponent including a burrowed ling u can put at his 3rd if u manage to kill it.
-worst thing I run into with this style is a lot of cannons or a very well positioned army / sim city. After seeing this type of thing I like to drone hard and spine up, 4 base brood. What would you do vs many cannons? or some tactics to get around good sim city / army positioning?
-gas timings past your first 3 gases? do you wait until 6 gas before you get aggressive? or get aggro with roach ling on 3 gas first? maybe a game-to-game decision.
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nice guide as always blade thank you
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I love this, been playing like this since I saw Stephano's fast 3 base in ZvP. The difference is that I get both gasses at 6mn and an evo, then in order metabolic boost, +1 carapace/range then lair. It times so that you can plop down the roach warren when you start the evo upgrade, and the +1 will finish just after lair allowing you to get +2 asap, and still in time to defend gateway aggression. Also 3rd and 4th gas when you start lair. I don't like timing stuff in relation to the ingame timer thus this way I do it related to when my buildings/gas finish.
I don't like at all the spire before infestation pit if not going for mutas though, and the spire by default anyways. Relying on overseer scouting to know when to put it down is better imo. You also already adressed the 6:15 overlord sacrifice which seems too early to see some things to me.
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I'm a bit of a nub and have trouble with 4gates (off ffe), 7gate blink and 6gate robo allins; what would your responses be with this build? Just roach/ling, or do you add in hydras or infestors or even muta?
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Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for?
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After watching the GSL Finals, this does seem to be the right way to play ZvP knowadays. DRG seems to transition into mass muta from his roach ling aggression though. Great guide as always, nice to have it written down to copy from
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On March 07 2012 00:39 Host- wrote:After watching the GSL Finals, this does seem to be the right way to play ZvP knowadays. DRG seems to transition into mass muta from his roach ling aggression though. Great guide as always, nice to have it written down to copy from
I think there's another cool viable style shown in the Huk vs Aria & Seed vs Symbol games. Triple ground upgrades with transition from baneling drops support into infestor and hive tech. Then, get almost every single zerg unit into your unit composition since they synergise so well together. Light muta harassment is also possible during the transition phase.
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On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for?
Zerg usually sacrifice OL anywhere between 5-6 min mark so its not really early.
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On March 07 2012 01:28 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for? Zerg usually sacrifice OL anywhere between 5-6 min mark so its not really early.
No they don't. It's generally around 7 mins when it gets sent in.
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On March 07 2012 02:10 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 01:28 Affluenza wrote:On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for? Zerg usually sacrifice OL anywhere between 5-6 min mark so its not really early. No they don't. It's generally around 7 mins when it gets sent in.
7 minutes? You're already dead.gif
You have to know the amount of gases taken before 7 mins to make an appropriate reaction. Protoss timings are between 7-9 mins mark...
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On March 06 2012 19:50 Oboeman wrote:
Would you recommend getting drop tech with this style, especially when a protoss takes a fast 3rd with a high sentry count? It gives you another access point, for putting lings in his main while you are attacking his 3rd.
Not really, you are going to be super gas starved as it is when having roach/ling/muta and getting upgrades I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend burrow though .
On March 06 2012 20:38 babysimba wrote:
Mutas are much better than some small drop harassment. With mutas, you have higher dps and can choose to attack and retreat at will. Drops are much harder to put on constant pressure and you can't really retreat.
Staying on lair tech means you have to do enough damage during trading of units or you will lose to the inevitable "death-push". Roaches don't do enough dps (also slow in chasing down probes) and lings (under-upgraded) get shredded by zealots warp-ins. Lack of dps and retreat options mean that it is not that urgent for toss to clean up the multi-pronged threat. As long as they save enough probes and not let too many buildings die, they can move around a bigger army to clean up area by area with superb cost efficiency.
On a side note, i wonder if anyone has a good solution to a well-executed warp prism harassment into immortal timing. Warp prism forces you to make units earlier and you can't even force them to commit their units due to shitty anti-air. Then, they come with a big timing with reinforcements right in your face. Zergs already have problem dealing with normal timing attacks, now this is one that forces you to have worse eco and absolutely no way to cut reinforcements.
Just thought I would say I have played vs a well executed immortal/stalker/sentry/zealot/warp prism push on korea, super hard to hold off as immortals are so strong xD. Need spines vs it or I am pretty sure you will die .
On March 06 2012 21:02 aebriol wrote:
How do you feel it compares to Stephano's style?
He use pretty much the same build,but he use first 100 gas for lair, second for ling speed, third for +1 range attack, 4th (unless aggression) for roach speed.
I feel the faster lair helps more than the faster ling speed in my play.
I don't really watch stephano so I can't really say how it compares sorry  .
On March 06 2012 21:30 TheGreenMachine wrote:
I love this style of ZvP, ive been doing something similar for a few months.
Some suggestions and questions!
-How would a slightly delayed gateway / cyber core affect your build? Im not entirely sure of the timing personally, I know many zergs say evo and roach warren between 7:00 and 7:30 and ofcourse the gate/cyber timing is crucial when making that decision.
-burrow is so good with this runby ling, roach, muta style tho it might require even more multitasking. What I love is hitting 3 places at once, do a runby hit the main and the nat, do major attack on the 3rd. Main is zealots vs your lings so you burrow, natural is some roaches just burrow, his army positioned well at his 3rd. So run more lings to his natural unborrow ect ect. Not too expensive for what it can force from your opponent including a burrowed ling u can put at his 3rd if u manage to kill it.
-worst thing I run into with this style is a lot of cannons or a very well positioned army / sim city. After seeing this type of thing I like to drone hard and spine up, 4 base brood. What would you do vs many cannons? or some tactics to get around good sim city / army positioning?
-gas timings past your first 3 gases? do you wait until 6 gas before you get aggressive? or get aggro with roach ling on 3 gas first? maybe a game-to-game decision.
Just means you can drone more if they are doing a delayed gate/cyber core ^^. I also agree with burrow being really good, been trying to incorporate it more in zvp like DRG.
If I see a lot of cannons, that often means he's doing some heavy teching of some sort. I would start scouting hardcore in his main/natural and see if he's doing stargate tech of some sort. Normally tosses don't just make a lot of cannons early-midish in the game unless teching.
I do get all 6 gases before I am aggressive just because of the muta transition and I alwasy feel gas starved once I have all my bases saturated while taking a fourth.
On March 06 2012 22:05 NeonFox wrote:
I love this, been playing like this since I saw Stephano's fast 3 base in ZvP. The difference is that I get both gasses at 6mn and an evo, then in order metabolic boost, +1 carapace/range then lair. It times so that you can plop down the roach warren when you start the evo upgrade, and the +1 will finish just after lair allowing you to get +2 asap, and still in time to defend gateway aggression. Also 3rd and 4th gas when you start lair. I don't like timing stuff in relation to the ingame timer thus this way I do it related to when my buildings/gas finish.
I don't like at all the spire before infestation pit if not going for mutas though, and the spire by default anyways. Relying on overseer scouting to know when to put it down is better imo. You also already adressed the 6:15 overlord sacrifice which seems too early to see some things to me.
If you are going infestors you obviously should get that first not the spire unless you see some carrier/mothership or mass phoenix play. Or fast colossi . Going to put a /infestation pit so people know that in the build.
6:15 does not seem early to me like I have said I always see if they are doing stargate/gateways being built. I would delay it a little bit if I saw a later then normal cyber core, but otherwise timing has always worked good for me so I am not going to change it ^^.
On March 06 2012 22:17 Zrana wrote:
I'm a bit of a nub and have trouble with 4gates (off ffe), 7gate blink and 6gate robo allins; what would your responses be with this build? Just roach/ling, or do you add in hydras or infestors or even muta?
By 4 gates do you mean Forge expand then early zealot pressure or something? If he does that it's easy to hold with roach/ling and its normally not to commited. 7 gate blink I would add hydra's or go infestors (especially vs +2 blink). Robo all in I would have spines roach/ling while getting mutalisks or roach/hydra/ling most likely is what I find, roach/ling does die to this alone if toss does proper force fields.
On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for?
I always see the stargate/gateways being built when I scout at this time. I see no reason to delay it when it has worked so well for me and I always see gateways/stargates unless they proxy the stargates of course then I don't.
Thanks for the responses guys, will try to add more replays :D
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Can you still hold off 6 gate +1/7 gate builds with this while going fast lair? I've been under the impression that going lair and having a fast third will leave you too far behind economically to have the units to hold it off.
/plat noob
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On March 07 2012 04:48 Effay wrote:
Can you still hold off 6 gate +1/7 gate builds with this while going fast lair? I've been under the impression that going lair and having a fast third will leave you too far behind economically to have the units to hold it off.
/plat noob
Oh yes you can hold that easily. If its just gateway units yeah you can hold a 6/7 gate +1 all in with roach/ling while going lair 7-7:30 no problem. With the such late gas you have more drones earlier so you can pump out a ton of units and should hold just fine unless you supply block yourself or something.
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You said you don't like to continue getting melee upgrades, but if you're going for a bl/infestor/ling composition, don't you find they help immensely?
It's sort of rare that the protoss gets armor upgrades, but if they do non melee upgraded lings are significantly worse against stalkers, and even if they don't go armor, the added damage to BL and lings is immense, no?
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On March 07 2012 05:13 KhAmun wrote:
You said you don't like to continue getting melee upgrades, but if you're going for a bl/infestor/ling composition, don't you find they help immensely?
It's sort of rare that the protoss gets armor upgrades, but if they do non melee upgraded lings are significantly worse against stalkers, and even if they don't go armor, the added damage to BL and lings is immense, no?
Everytime I get melee upgrades I feel it costs me zvp games due to making so many roaches all game long. I don't just make ling/infestor/bl I have roaches as well. You can get it if you want but I don't
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Cool, another great guide by blade55555!
I've been using your ZvT Roach opener in practically every ZvT I get, I love it!
One question though, what's your usual ZvP build on Tal'Darim where the third is blocked by rocks? Do you just build more lings at the start? Or place a macro hatch by the rocks first? (I usually do one of these)
I've tried taking the nearest fourth base as my third befre, but then I lose horribly to air.
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On March 07 2012 07:29 archon256 wrote:
Cool, another great guide by blade55555!
I've been using your ZvT Roach opener in practically every ZvT I get, I love it!
One question though, what's your usual ZvP build on Tal'Darim where the third is blocked by rocks? Do you just build more lings at the start? Or place a macro hatch by the rocks first? (I usually do one of these)
I've tried taking the nearest fourth base as my third befre, but then I lose horribly to air.
On a map like that and shattered you need to go 2 base either infestor or muta, your choice .
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United States8476 Posts
I'm really a fan of +1 armor vs toss, as it lets you use lings versus the +1/+1 immortal push and lings will take 1 more hit to kill from +2 stalkers. However, what do you find is the exact advantage of getting the 6:00 evo instead of the standard 7:00-7:20 evo or the DRG 7:45 evo? Vs the drg timing, the advantage is that you get +1 in the timing window between 9:15 and 11:00. There are 3 different timings I could see the +1 being useful. Between 8:00 and 8:30, you'd hit the standard 4 gate +1 timing and your +1 won't help too much. And 11:00 is around the exact time most 2 base allins come, which I believe is the purpose of drg's timing. The advantage of of your +1 timing is vs the funky +1 pushes like 4 gate voidray and other weird late 4 gate pushes, which I believe roaches can hold perfectly well. However, if you don't want more roaches in your final army or want to punish these pushes, the early +1 would be useful. On the other hand, with later +1, you get more econ.
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else.
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On March 07 2012 12:02 NrGmonk wrote:
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else.
You wouldn't happen to have a few replay examples of this build / dealing with those early pylons? Would really like to take a look, I think it's an interesting approach.
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Looks good. I really like how your 3 protoss guides can be used as a history lesson of meta-game paradigm shifts in macro style zvp.
My only objection in this version would be to just go for one set on lings instead of two if you manage to place a 16 hatch. In my experience that little mineral difference in the beginning multiplies to 3-5 extra drones by the 8 minute mark if you stay on top of your injects.
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On March 08 2012 06:26 VoirDire wrote:
Looks good. I really like how your 3 protoss guides can be used as a history lesson of meta-game paradigm shifts in macro style zvp.
My only objection in this version would be to just go for one set on lings instead of two if you manage to place a 16 hatch. In my experience that little mineral difference in the beginning multiplies to 3-5 extra drones by the 8 minute mark if you stay on top of your injects.
I go for 2 sets for a reason. I like having control of watch towers, I think it's a must honestly and will never understand why zergs dont' control them. I also have lings scouting for proxy pylons/probes which is a must imo to do against forge FE.
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On March 07 2012 12:02 NrGmonk wrote:
I'm really a fan of +1 armor vs toss, as it lets you use lings versus the +1/+1 immortal push and lings will take 1 more hit to kill from +2 stalkers. However, what do you find is the exact advantage of getting the 6:00 evo instead of the standard 7:00-7:20 evo or the DRG 7:45 evo? Vs the drg timing, the advantage is that you get +1 in the timing window between 9:15 and 11:00. There are 3 different timings I could see the +1 being useful. Between 8:00 and 8:30, you'd hit the standard 4 gate +1 timing and your +1 won't help too much. And 11:00 is around the exact time most 2 base allins come, which I believe is the purpose of drg's timing. The advantage of of your +1 timing is vs the funky +1 pushes like 4 gate voidray and other weird late 4 gate pushes, which I believe roaches can hold perfectly well. However, if you don't want more roaches in your final army or want to punish these pushes, the early +1 would be useful. On the other hand, with later +1, you get more econ.
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else.
Blade this is addressed at you as well
How do you progress your upgrades from there, do you keep up with carapace, switch to an attack or add another evo chamber? How valuable do you think that carapace ups are going into the late game?
In that same vein with brood lords do you prefer attack or carapace, I've seen both used and both obv have their merits.
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On March 08 2012 11:27 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 12:02 NrGmonk wrote:
I'm really a fan of +1 armor vs toss, as it lets you use lings versus the +1/+1 immortal push and lings will take 1 more hit to kill from +2 stalkers. However, what do you find is the exact advantage of getting the 6:00 evo instead of the standard 7:00-7:20 evo or the DRG 7:45 evo? Vs the drg timing, the advantage is that you get +1 in the timing window between 9:15 and 11:00. There are 3 different timings I could see the +1 being useful. Between 8:00 and 8:30, you'd hit the standard 4 gate +1 timing and your +1 won't help too much. And 11:00 is around the exact time most 2 base allins come, which I believe is the purpose of drg's timing. The advantage of of your +1 timing is vs the funky +1 pushes like 4 gate voidray and other weird late 4 gate pushes, which I believe roaches can hold perfectly well. However, if you don't want more roaches in your final army or want to punish these pushes, the early +1 would be useful. On the other hand, with later +1, you get more econ.
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else. Blade this is addressed at you as well How do you progress your upgrades from there, do you keep up with carapace, switch to an attack or add another evo chamber? How valuable do you think that carapace ups are going into the late game? In that same vein with brood lords do you prefer attack or carapace, I've seen both used and both obv have their merits.
I think I said something earlier, but yes I do get a second evo and get carapace + ranged attack. One of those upgrades will start later (for me ranged starts later then carapace).
I think carapace ups are important, but that's just my opinion on it I love the carapace upgrade first and yeah think its definitely worth it ^^.
For brood lords I believe carapace but I don't know for sure for this one.
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Thanks for the guide --- I was pretty much doing exactly what I was supposed to except in a non-optimized fashion. I also think I needed to get a spire much faster after infestation pit.
I do prefer:
9 overlord
12 pool
16 queen/ 4 lings
20/18 expo
19 overlord
21 queen
25 expo
24 overlord
24 Queen
12 pool makes it so I don't need to send a drone at 15 because one of my lings arrives at his base just in time for me to decide whether to take a 3rd. It also lets me handle hatch blocks more easily.
EDIT: I changed my mind about scouting at 15. If my lings have to kill a pylon, they don't spot his FFE in time for me to change my build efficiently.
EDIT2: Another advantage of 12 pool is that, if you make a 2nd queen right after your first, you can send your first queen to your nat, make a tumor/inject and send it straight to your 3rd. Make a queen at your nat right after that, and you will have 3 injects all perfectly aligned all game. You also get a single tumor that you can use to spread creep REALLY far by 11 mins. The tumor is laid at 5:20 so you can make tumors (380 seconds / 30 seconds per tumor) = 12 additional times by 11 mins.
Comparing my drone amounts to DRG, 12 pool is just as good as 14 pool.
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Deltrus I will never like 12 pool, I don't think it's even worth it with how tosses can just block the pathway to their natural with a couple gateways and then your lings are useless and I don't see 12 pool getting you more drones then 14 pool. Expansions seem later to me (20/18 expansion compared to 16). My main issue with zvp is I keep forgetting to make a 4'th queen to spread creep but otherwise I prefer my build to yours .
Now guys I updated the guide with same type of style, but I took mutalisks out completely. I have been having more success with roach/ling/infestor aggression with drop play if the toss decides to take a fast third. I mean I have really had a lot more success with it, forcing the toss to deal with drops while attacking into his army is great and the infestors make it so that immortals aren't so hard to deal with.
I was having trouble vs tosses who took a third and got heavy immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot as I always get stomped vs that with just roach/ling/muta . OP is updated and here are the two replays from korean server.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tn1y9kb25u2kd5w
http://www.mediafire.com/?ki8otws0bl9hm50
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I like the style a lot and play it quite similar. Not that fast and on your high level (diamond here), but harrasing with mutas, while keeping the toss main army somewhere else, by pressuring with my main army of roach/ling/infestor (Yeah I go infestor after the first 8-12 mutas). I also find it very helpful to set up a nydus at one point. Some toss totally wall off and you cant run in with lings. When facing this I harras a base with mutas and morph a nydus under them to send in some lings. (I would also do multi-nydus if I had the APM  )
Special thanks for the exact timings and the BO layout. This will definitly help me to improve.
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you should see the game of Stephano and WhiteRa in IPLMap Sanshorn Mists AE in their IPL4 SXSW Showmatch, shows how to drop Protoss' base as Zerg and how you can use Ovie drop with pure Roaches to deal with low Colossus counts and a decent number of Sentries.
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On April 06 2012 19:55 c_kAelle wrote:
you should see the game of Stephano and WhiteRa in IPLMap Sanshorn Mists AE in their IPL4 SXSW Showmatch, shows how to drop Protoss' base as Zerg and how you can use Ovie drop with pure Roaches to deal with low Colossus counts and a decent number of Sentries.
Those 2 replays I showed, showcase the same thing ^^
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Great guide blade, really helped my ZvP, but I do have a couple of questions. I've been watching and studying your replays, and I can't figure out for the life of me why you sometimes decide to go for roach ling infestor, roach ling muta, or even roach ling infestor AND muta. Is your unit comp something random, or is it chosen for a specific reason? Also, when do you decide to begin transitioning to hive?
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EPT
