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I would appreciate if some higher level players could lend their opinions. Which 1 is better and why?
First one is the standard. Keep making scvs, keep making marines. Make the cc when you got 400. Problem here is if you skip the bunker around 3:40 (before the cc) you will die to a single zealot.
Second one is my variation. Make a barracks at normal time, but no marine. Make second cc. Then get orbital, marine, depot, bunker... in that order.
The second variation appears better eco-wise, but you get out your marines a little slower. With the first one, you get the cc much later because you must build a bunker first to be safe otherwise you get hit by a zealot at around 4 minute-ish followed by a stalker.
Help me out team liquid. ;D
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i think this one is the safest
12 barracks
16 oc + marine
17 cc
17 supply
bunker with the supply's scv
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I would imagine supply depot before cc is safer because of higher marine count. I go for the faster cc because I'm used to the bunker timing etc. I guess its map dependant.
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On March 01 2012 06:31 IMNotMvp wrote:
i think this one is the safest
12 barracks
16 oc + marine
17 cc
17 supply
bunker with the supply's scv
I'm almost certain that's after 4 min meaning if they rally their zealot to you on many maps, you gotta pull scvs to fight a zealot. Not very cost effective. ;D
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Depends on how good micro you have.... you can beat a zealot with two marines :p
Anyways, the most standard way to 1rax FE is
OC
1 marine
CC
depot
continue marines
bunker/raxes (depending on how confident you are or scouting etc.....)
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u can beat the zealot with a wall off or by stalling by running around in circles with your marine (zealot and marine have the same movement speed) until a second marine is out or your bunker completes.
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If you can't kill zealot with 2 marines you need to practice micro.
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On March 01 2012 06:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
I would appreciate if some higher level players could lend their opinions. Which 1 is better and why?
First one is the standard. Keep making scvs, keep making marines. Make the cc when you got 400. Problem here is if you skip the bunker around 3:40 (before the cc) you will die to a single zealot.
Second one is my variation. Make a barracks at normal time, but no marine. Make second cc. Then get orbital, marine, depot, bunker... in that order.
The second variation appears better eco-wise, but you get out your marines a little slower. With the first one, you get the cc much later because you must build a bunker first to be safe otherwise you get hit by a zealot at around 4 minute-ish followed by a stalker.
Help me out team liquid. ;D
Whether you go CC before or after second Supply Depot, you should never “die to a single Zealot” ... By the time the Zealot comes to your natural, you should have enough Marines (which is 3) to fend him off. Then you make your Bunker to be safe from Stalker harass.
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For tvp Thorzain recommends the version where you delay your second depot and cut marines for a second. With decent micro this is safe.
Edit; Kusu's version that is.
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1. I'm not convinced that CC before OC is much better economically, all else being equal.
2. As a protoss, I can't tell you how many Terrans I kill with my first zealot/stalker pokes when they get greedy and delay their bunker/marines. Protoss doesn't have to kill anything with the zealot -- he just has to keep the bunker from finishing. SCV's can't kite while they are building. even if you finish the bunker in time, if you don't have at least 4-5 marines the protoss can often runby on the low ground without even taking hull damage.
Your expo is already ahead of protoss with a standard 1 rax gasless FE, I wouldn't get greedy and cut any marines or delay your bunker.
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On March 01 2012 07:23 quillian wrote:
1. I'm not convinced that CC before OC is much better economically, all else being equal.
2. As a protoss, I can't tell you how many Terrans I kill with my first zealot/stalker pokes when they get greedy and delay their bunker/marines. Protoss doesn't have to kill anything with the zealot -- he just has to keep the bunker from finishing. SCV's can't kite while they are building. even if you finish the bunker in time, if you don't have at least 4-5 marines the protoss can often runby on the low ground without even taking hull damage.
Your expo is already ahead of protoss with a standard 1 rax gasless FE, I wouldn't get greedy and cut any marines or delay your bunker.
I don't know about which skill-level you are talking but 4 Marines (which you SHOULD have at that time, maybe even 5) is enough to kill a Zealot and a Stalker with ramp advantage. If there is no ramp advantage then pull 2 scvs and kill both. It's really not that hard, it just needs a little bit of micro.
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On March 01 2012 07:29 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 07:23 quillian wrote:
1. I'm not convinced that CC before OC is much better economically, all else being equal.
2. As a protoss, I can't tell you how many Terrans I kill with my first zealot/stalker pokes when they get greedy and delay their bunker/marines. Protoss doesn't have to kill anything with the zealot -- he just has to keep the bunker from finishing. SCV's can't kite while they are building. even if you finish the bunker in time, if you don't have at least 4-5 marines the protoss can often runby on the low ground without even taking hull damage.
Your expo is already ahead of protoss with a standard 1 rax gasless FE, I wouldn't get greedy and cut any marines or delay your bunker. I don't know about which skill-level you are talking but 4 Marines (which you SHOULD have at that time, maybe even 5) is enough to kill a Zealot and a Stalker with ramp advantage. If there is no ramp advantage then pull 2 scvs and kill both. It's really not that hard, it just needs a little bit of micro.
I was assuming low ground bunker. if you want to sit on top of your ramp that's a different story.
it's all about micro and relative skill at this point, obviously, so theory crafting is silly. I'm just suggesting that cutting marines is probably a bad idea, given that you already have an economic advantage.
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I prefer reactor expand, which also discourages people from pressuring you as much. You should still build a bunker, but it is more likely to get up safely.
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I say do the first one because the build i feel like just flows really smooth and getting those extra marine out i dont see a really bad reason to. It always makes me feel a little safer  . As for bunker timings, i like to build my bunker after i build 2 barracks (after cc goes down) and im PRETTTTY sure you can buy time for it to finish if you use your scouting scv to distract stalker. As for the zealot, even if he chrono boosts i think you'll have 3 marines there which i think is suffecient enough to handle that. If i see him chroning out the zealot AND the stalker just build the bunker before the barracks.
So BO should look like this:
10depot 12rax 14depot (deny scouting) 15orbital 15marine @400minerals cc @300 minerals 2 barracks @100 minerals bunker and then you can either get another barracks to go up to 4 OR get double refinerys. If you see him chronoing out zealot and stalker and you want to be absolutely safe:
10depot 12rax 14depot 15orbital 15marine @400minerals cc @100minerals bunker and then @300minerals 2 barracks. If hes aggressive with his stalker and zealot the scv you hide to check for 5 minute 1gate expo gets a full scout off on his entire base anyway so you can see if hes going for a 3gate pressure 4gate 1gate fe just a full scout. Hope this helped.
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In GSL I see the constant marine production variation almost exclusively. They do try to get greedy by making the bunker as late as possible, though, sometimes making it after rax 2,3 and the double gas, but I bet they know how to scout when not to do that... I can never figure out when I can get the double gas before the bunker, so I just make it after rax 2,3. Since you make constant marines, even if they do make it to your ramp before the bunker is ready, you should be able to delay the zealot+stalker until the bunker is done with some micro.
I think if you go with the "cut marines" variant, you don't have enough to delay and must have the bunker ready before the stalker arrives, though I'm not too sure about that.
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Galzohar is wrong about the second depot before CC being more popular in the GSL, the only time I see people dropping the second depot before the CC is to either trap or deny a probe scout.
My thinking is basically this: I'm safe with either if i build the bunker right after the depot, and can afford to lose a marine if he's chrono'ing out zealot -> stalker -> stalker.
If I want to trap a probe or deny a scout just to play mindgames, or possibly get a little econ lead by killing their scout, then I'll drop the second depot.
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I want to recommend the Empire.Kas style of building 3 CCs.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-399-p1-very-easy-tvp-by-empire-kas-5880012
One thing to make sure, is that you are pulling your scvs if you sense an attack, especially a 4 gate (Yes they still do that on the NA ladder). It is better to pull 3-6 scvs and not have to use them than it is to die.
I would recommend pulling them around 6 minutes if you can't rule out a 4 gate, and then again around 9-10 minutes if they didn't attack at 6 minutes. After you set down your cc and start getting medivacs, you should be nearly in "come at me bro" mode.
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On March 01 2012 08:28 CatNzHat wrote:
Galzohar is wrong about the second depot before CC being more popular in the GSL, the only time I see people dropping the second depot before the CC is to either trap or deny a probe scout.
My thinking is basically this: I'm safe with either if i build the bunker right after the depot, and can afford to lose a marine if he's chrono'ing out zealot -> stalker -> stalker.
If I want to trap a probe or deny a scout just to play mindgames, or possibly get a little econ lead by killing their scout, then I'll drop the second depot.
Nope, I see the 2nd depot before expo often in GSL in tvp and I do that as well. You cut marine production or scv production slightly if you go expo before 2nd depot. It´s simply a slightly safer way to fast expand, production flows better and i found that when the expo finishes this way, it´s timed well for me to skip a depot, while if i do expo before 2nd depot i will have a depot building (to avoid getting supply blocked obviously) and only 6-7 seconds later the expo finishes giving me more free supply than i really need at that point of time.
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You should have enough marines to deal with whatever they're going to throw at you on any of the maps. I usually go 1 rax and expand with the 2nd depot and throw down 2 more rax. You should have 4 marines by the time he pushes with a zealot and stalker. Micro'd correctly (assuming you don't 1-A and you actually stutter step back), you should push them back.
My scv should know what they're doing at this point. If they're still chronoing out stalkers, then throw down a bunker. If not, just put up two more gases and put down the bunker after. Or 3 bunkers if you don't see an expansion but make sure to keep the scv around to check later on. That's just what I do.
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EPT
