EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200899
While a little dated, I hope this can add a bit to the discussion.
(D) The Hydra Pilgrimage Part 1 - Page 4
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CrueltY
Guernsey37 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200899 While a little dated, I hope this can add a bit to the discussion. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Hydras are actually not a new strategy, its a really old strategy. For example, in ZvP, every toss and their mom started going for colossus rushes super early. So zergs stopped using hydras, obviously. Now that 6gate/starport openers are a lot more common than fast robos, hydras probably have a role once again. As for the terran matchup, well believe it or not, at some point everyone thought tanks were crap, and pretty much no terrans used them. Hydras were then quite decent, ling-bling roach hydra, and ling-bling muta was the big idea. And then terrans started using tanks a ton, and thats basically what stopped ppl from using hydras. But yeah, check out the older threads, you should find a lot of ideas, everything from hydra roach to hydraling, hydraqueen pushing or overload highways to make hydra timing pushes asap. Tons of janky stuff, but also some pretty decent stuff. | ||
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brimestone
South Africa16 Posts
Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas. Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines. Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only. NOT A Good trade off. To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas. Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man. | ||
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Shibbxyz
United Kingdom94 Posts
On February 15 2012 02:00 brimestone wrote: No man. hydra dies to fast in tvz. Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas. Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines. Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only. NOT A Good trade off. To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas. Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man. This is why you get a couple of roaches to soak up the damage and an early +1 armour means you would lose nothing And if they have 1 tank you just spread and it does nothing if they have 2 you can still spread and it will do nothing as long as you keep the hydras controlled well and units to tank for them they will destroy a terren army before they get a huge siege tank count but lately terrens have been delaying their siege tanks for longer and longer Another point to make is usually a zerg has lots of lings and banes and the terren will split all his marines running from banes while this is happening the lings will be doing nothing but dieing to siege tanks since they can't catch up But if you have some roach and hydra in there as well they will always be doing damage to units and because the marines have to run away from the banes they won't be taken much damage apart from the seige splash (which when in small numbers can be reduced by a huge amount with simple splitting of units) | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On February 15 2012 02:00 brimestone wrote: No man. hydra dies to fast in tvz. Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas. Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines. Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only. NOT A Good trade off. To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas. Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man. Did you read my OP? I am forcing them to work  | ||
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MerdaPura
Brazil148 Posts
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winsause
United States65 Posts
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
 So this means that I am going to either: 1. to have to own a few terrans on ladder to get more screen shots for part 2, OR 2. Add a some of the new screen shots to this one. What do you all want? Also, I am still going to add 1-2 replays for those interested later ^_^ | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
 i did some roach hydra in zvt too. its only good on specific maps like shakuras. take the 3rd thats closer to the middle, defend it with roach hydra, then go into muta or infestor as you expand away from T. hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.) | ||
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TheSambassador
United States186 Posts
It's tricky, because Hydras are so expensive... dropping them seems so scary. But you basically NEED either Nydus or drop to use them aggressively. They actually defend drops pretty well IMO... a few at a base can focus down the medivac extremely quickly. It seems like Blizzard designed them to be defensive (based on their creep speed upgrade) and maybe offensive in the late game (when creepspread is bigger). I think that Hydras mixed in with Brood Lords and/or Ultralisks could be EXTREMELY strong. The Ultra is the epitome of tankiness, and the Hydras can just do so more damage. They also aren't terrible at trying to kill off Vikings, especially with Infestor support. I really hope that we see more hydras in the late game once zerg players get their "deathball" going. | ||
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Hanako
United Kingdom57 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:30 Tal0n wrote: hydras are really good in their spots in all matchups. have you ever tryed a 2 base hydra/ling timing in zvz? its incredibly safe and you can be aggressive anyway. you may say: "well banelings will just rape you" - only if you suck i did some roach hydra in zvt too. its only good on specific maps like shakuras. take the 3rd thats closer to the middle, defend it with roach hydra, then go into muta or infestor as you expand away from T. hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.) I agree Hydras have a place in ZvZ, but a Hydra-Ling push, in ZvZ? That just sounds terrible... Maybe the execution would end up being okay, but you'd literally have to be Marineking to not just straight up lose to someone making banes. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Terrans very rarely seem to use marauders or banshees in large quantities, which is pretty much the only thing hydralisks can be effective at dealing with; maybe also thors. The reduction of hellion's blue-flame damage will really help zerg to use hydralisks, but I'm not sure if it's enough (have not tested). Marines are far too strong (for hydras to deal with) due to their speed(stim), fast attack speed (stim), instant attack, ability to be healed, and damage & health per cost. Sure, hydralisks can do well as a support unit in attack, but what about just switching each hydralisk for 2 banelings or 4 zerglings? Lastly, I will acknowledge that at the end of a game, it's best to get a bit of every unit if you can control them well though, and that would include hydralisks (especially vs protoss), but I really would not say it's a good thing to do in early or mid game ZvT. Terrans have possibly become complacent at scouting their opponent due to common builds done by zerg, but if a terran just floats a building or two to the zerg, it's all they need to easily deal with hydralisks On February 15 2012 05:30 Tal0n wrote: I quite strongly disagreehydras are really good in their spots in all matchups. have you ever tryed a 2 base hydra/ling timing in zvz? its incredibly safe and you can be aggressive anyway. you may say: "well banelings will just rape you" - only if you suck hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.) No. That's some sort of urban legend, i don't know how it exists — maybe a bit from brood war or protoss whiners, or zergs that don't know how they really won. Charge Zealots beat hydralisks, and stalkers beat hydralisks (stalkers are tied when you compare ranged hydralisks to non-blink stalker, but if you compare non-ranged hydralisk to stalker, or blink stalker to ranged hydralisk, the stalkers will win). Sentries are very good against hydralisks due to guardian shield. Phoenix work well against hydralisks too, although I don't know if they are completely cost-efficient (but due to their speed, they don't even have to be, since they can pick off overlords and stray ground units). And even if hydralisks did beat non-colossus non-high-templar units, the fact that high templar and colossus dominate them is still a pretty significant problem. | ||
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Steak_
United States192 Posts
Also, queens are a much gas cheaper unit at focusing down medivacs, the only good thing hydras seem to do. They're dead supply and gas, and a turtling Terran needs to make a huge mistake to lose against them (much like I did). | ||
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gCgCrypto
Germany297 Posts
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
Less fun fact! Since Hydras are light, Blue Flame Hellions wreck their faces. Back when I was Platinum and Terran, I did some mass air play vs Zerg with Hellions as my mineral sink, and those Zergs that decided to try Hydras as a response died this way. So hydras aren't going to get much done vs mech, seeing as the exendible Hellions are more than happy to suicide their way toward the Hydras and get in one blast which annihilates every last Hydra you have. As a protoss, I have no fear of Hydras because I don't make Sentries. The reason Hydras are purported to be good vs basic gateway armies is that their long range makes the force fields that most gateway armies hinge on mostly ineffective - any Sentries beyond the one doing Guardian Shield just don't accomplish much of anything for the protoss player when Hydras are around. Have you seen Phoenix + ground army (basically doesn't matter what) vs Roach/Hydra? It's not pretty for the Zerg. | ||
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