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Recently, Day 9 + Zenio have showed the world that the Hydra may not be a useless unit. The hydra is a situational unit, decent vs a wide range of units, proving that the hydra has a place in the zvp mid game.
However, what about zvt? Does the Hydra have a place in this match up?
If so, when?
This has been my quest for the past few weeks. Forcing them to work!
I will admit that I have lost quite a few games forcing hydras into zvt.
However, I have had alot of really amusing moments too.
EDIT: (I have been asked to share some of my thoughts behind using hydras during ZVT. I.E When, how, why)
(In the process of updating this now)
RE: EDIT: These are all ladder games in NA Master League.
RE RE: EDIT: Later today I will post a few replays + find some hydra vs mech related shinanigans + Added a "so far, pro's and con's"
RE RE RE EDIT: I have uploaded two replays. Additionally, I am gathering replays on Hydra vs Mech.
http://drop.sc/112621 (Hydra counter attack to non-standard play)
http://drop.sc/112623 (Hydra/Roach/Ling/Bane Deathball counter attack while defending two drops)
Hydras!!!!!!!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q1nPd.jpg)
Are they useless patches of blood and flesh that marines and tanks walk and roll over?
No
Hydras, question mark.... Yes
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A6BaC.jpg)
The first thing I have noticed is, terrans are always shocked by hydras. Almost if they are some secret ninja unit that you get from a blizzard code.
Who remembers "Glittering prizes?"
Black sheep wall!
EDIT: Something for nothing,
Your base are belong to us
What were some of the others...?
Terran players think I'm insane! . . . I am
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yb51T.jpg)
I get alot of ... well not BM really. But amusing comments just the same. Of course this usually happens when you are doing something that is very different from the norm.
Hydra Pro's
1. Good vs strange unit comps + cheesy all in builds, that incorperate banshee's, with some sort of murader, ect ect
2. Can kite on creep well
3. good at focus fireing units during battle, Drops ships or: (like a 1 base BC rush for example)
4. Pairs very nicely with all other zerg units
Hydra Con's
1. Expensive.
2. Not good by their lonesome, these are not all purpose shock troops, these are all purpose support troops
3. Not that hot vs Marine tank - unless you have good positioning + banelings Or/And lings
A. Much higher degree of skill required for attacking army positioning + defense.
B. Requires an excellent, precise build order.
C. Can not over drone
Deathball Mixer: Gin and Tonic
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1X1D7.jpg)
Lets first talk about strategy. Specically, making a new strategy work.
1. You must have clear goals in mind. Not ---> I want to max on this unit lawl!
2. I personally choose to focus on my mid game openings + goals
a. fully saturate two bases,
b. Don't over drone
c. place your third down for bait ----> and saturate for the end of the midgame
3. Use the small advantages you gain from battle to continue droning/expanding.
4.. Dont let the terran have a third base up and running.... EVER -----> unless you already have 4 bases saturated.
This is the goal that really shapes my mid build orders, and tech routes.
(this is now the time to refill your drink)
"Run to the hills! Run for your lives!" --Iron Maiden
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pvVAJ.jpg)
no - these are not brood war hydras, why are you running???
Terrans dont like it when you have a third base up. It drives them crazy.
So normally they will have a Stim/Tank push to stop it.
Things you need to know about hydras:
1. They are horrible with out tanking units.
a. slings are good
b. speed roaches are also good.
2. Dont attack with out tanking units.... if you can.
3. With tanking units they can actually do something
A. if you add banelings into the mix, (AWESOME) hydra's DPS is great clean up
B. Yes you can call your hydras brooms if you want.
Drops vs a ground zerg
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8hYUW.jpg)
Terran players love to drop into your main - or any base for that matter.
1. to of course do eco damges.
2. to distract you from their main push
where is the muta when you need them..... oh wait...
1. Good OL spread is really the key. I suggest spreading OL to your main's outter rim + to your thirds as well.
also.
2. spread to the corners of the map too.
3. Have a pack of units, on a different hot key to deal with the drops
4. Once your third or 4th are up. you will need another anti drop party.
Ahoy! Nom Nom
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EV7MR.jpg)
here is a good example of owning a drop ---> Terran's do not like this very much
No can has CC, MINE
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i78lT.jpg)
Roach + Sling + Baneling's will normally look into the sky and shed a few tears here.
OK. So what tech should we choose to attack a third OR/AND stop a timing push?
1. +1 Armor
a. To save gas for more tech
b. To allow your tanking units to live longer
c. Hydra's already do alot of DPS. they just need to live longer
2. Bane speed
a. For flacking attacks
b. For attacking kiting rines
3. Roach speed
a. Really adds to their effectiveness
4. sling speed
5. Hydra den. + range
6. Burrow
a. you are going to bury a ling at EVERY expansion. this will buy you the time you need to get into position
These upgrades are the ones you need in the mid game. Of course you will need to cut some of them for terran cheese.
also, once you get your third up and running will be the time to get more evo chambers + infestors.
Its a trap! --Akbar
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6AGb1.jpg)
Im going to hydrabeatdown seven shades of.....
Wait.... FML
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gsGaA.jpg)
This is why you need tanking units. Mother of god!
I wish I had that gas back.....
Hydra + Infester = More gin and tonic
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UjZT9.jpg)
In the beginning of the late game. Hydra + Infestor is very nice support for your army.
This is actually quite nice. Your infesters will have much more energy for the rest of the terran army while the hydras snipe those tasty drop ships. NOMNOMNOM
I have only begun my Hydra pilgrimage!
Where will the path take me?!
maybe: Hydra ZVZ midgame?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/84gmv.jpg)
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I would love to make this into a blog - However I think I might be either:
1. Drunk
2. To TL noob
To make this into a Blog.
Either way. TL discussion will do nicely.
Enjoy!
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I think the only places hydras can shine are where it can do things the roach cannot.
vs marine seige tank... it can hit medivacs. that's all. It's worse for flanks since it's slowness. Takes more gas so that means less infestor/banes... it can't fight stim marines head on (much like roaches) It's increased range doesn't really do much vs seige mode.
vs. toss. it can defend air! It can fight blink stalkers better! It's terrible against colossus  It takes up 3 supply. booo
vs zerg. We already have it's uses down. I dont think there's a lack of hydras currently in zvz.
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Looks like I'm going to have to stop medivac dropping you from now on. Hydras...the new threat to my dropships...
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I wonder if this will turn into a NaDa's Body thread for me...
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Very interesting, i love hydras and think they're one of the coolest looking units lol. But this is just pictures of you using hydras rofl, give information/build orders/specific tactics and strategies/timings and more explained situations and im sure this post will be more popular ^^
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On February 14 2012 13:01 fighter2_40 wrote:I think the only places hydras can shine are where it can do things the roach cannot. vs marine seige tank... it can hit medivacs. that's all. It's worse for flanks since it's slowness. Takes more gas so that means less infestor/banes... it can't fight stim marines head on (much like roaches) It's increased range doesn't really do much vs seige mode. vs. toss. it can defend air! It can fight blink stalkers better! It's terrible against colossus It takes up 3 supply. booo vs zerg. We already have it's uses down. I dont think there's a lack of hydras currently in zvz.
They are very slow, so I must plan my prong attacks, and defense very carefully. Which is much harder, and more fun IMO.
And I dont go infester/BL in the endgame anyway.
Now you are right about zvz. However usually one goes +1/+1 roaches (or +2) with hydra...
Or,
Someone goes muta. then the other guy guys hydras.
What im talking about is opening the midgame with hydras. I was doing that all day today actually.
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On February 14 2012 13:05 HornyHydra wrote:
I wonder if this will turn into a NaDa's Body thread for me...
lmao!
I should PM Nada and ask if he is still interested.
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On February 14 2012 13:02 psp219 wrote:
Looks like I'm going to have to stop medivac dropping you from now on. Hydras...the new threat to my dropships...
<3
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On February 14 2012 13:05 Kiri wrote:
Very interesting, i love hydras and think they're one of the coolest looking units lol. But this is just pictures of you using hydras rofl, give information/build orders/specific tactics and strategies/timings and more explained situations and im sure this post will be more popular ^^
I agree with you. If people are interested ill do just that.
Right now I just want to show the world that I am trying to make them work, (with success ill add)
and just show the good, the bad, and the really ugly
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Haha, cool pictures. I love the one where your "trap" failed. Kudos to you for trying to make them work.
As for whether or not they are viable in ZvT. I think not, at least not at a high level of play (although I do remember seeing Violet go roach/hydra in ZvT a couple of times on his stream some time back).
Here are my reasons:
1) Hydras are weak/ not ideal against any standard terran composition. (marine tank > hydras; mech > hydras)
2) They offer no harassment potential, like mutas do. (unless you want to do a hydra run-by into the main)
3) Cannot defend drops well (despite your screenshot). I mean, they won't even catch up to marines if they are in your in
your main and repositioning them is a pain.
4) They're SC2 Hydras. Let's get real here.
Perhaps I just have no foresight or creativity, though. Perhaps 5 years down the line they're going to be the most imba unit in the matchup.
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haha, I still remember when I first started, I went roache hydra every match up.
That being said, those were the days when most people did that anyway.
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i used hydras vs mass thors before haha it's quite good
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That's funny, good job on trying to find new places for the metagame to go!
I would love to read more of this style of post! =D
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On February 14 2012 13:35 Dright wrote:
That's funny, good job on trying to find new places for the metagame to go!
I would love to read more of this style of post! =D
Thank you! I will try my best to do so!
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I've tried making hydras work, but I keep finding that anything they are good at, another unit is better at it.
There are only 2 ground units, that I know of, where the hydra is better than a roach vs; the Immortal and the Marauder. I wouldn't recommend using hydras vs immortals, since most likely colossus are following, and when a terran is going Marauders vs zerg usually it's because they also have blue flame hellions, and those RAPE hydras.
So that just leave hydras vs air units. I feel that queens are just outright better. Queens don't require any gas, they have more than twice the hit points plus are also psionic. Queens also out range hydra vs air by 2(1 after 150/150 upgrade range upgrade for hydras) and are able to heal buildings that are getting sniped. the only way that hydras slight edge out queens at is move speed, queens have a speed of 0.94/2.5 (off creep/on creep) vs the hydra's 2.25/3.37.
anyway, those are my thoughts 
Edited for grammer
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Ok I have added alot more insight to my pics. Please tell me if this enhances this post
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almost any unit works when you have a large enough economic lead. remember you have to invest in range attack, hydra tech, and hydra range. late game zerg requires melee upgrades so generaly its better to use melee ground army and invest your gas into units such as infestors or mutas. i imagine hydras could support roaches decently versus mech though.
i think the main reason hydras are not used in ZvT is because lings and banelings are so effective vers tank marine that melee upgrades are definatly the priority. any army could be slightly improved with a small amount of hdyras but that is a lot of gas to invest in tech which could be more effective in either mutas/infestor/hive
edit; i went down a path of using tons of hydras in platinum and ive won plenty of ZvT with them but i still put that down to better macro. I use hydras in almost every ZvP i love hydras but i dont have a place for them in my ZvT. ZvZ i go muta ling bane eventualy ultras infestors since the infestor nerf so i dont know about the best way to use them in ZvZ.
offtopic but if i see hydras in response to my mutas in ZvZ i just get banespeed +1+1 ground and go kill them
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NVM JUST IGNORE good pictures
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On February 14 2012 14:06 FinestHour wrote:
NVM JUST IGNORE good pictures
TY, spent a long time trying to get good ones up
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I love this...this is really how a game progresses, instead of calling hydras bad he actually tries to incorporate them into his play. 2 thumbs up Endofline!!
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This is awesome. ZvT will go back to Hydra/Lurker/Defil-.. erm, Hydra/Infestor/Ultra
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IMHO Hydras are like more expensive slow Marines that cost gas.
Which is kind of a synonym for "bad". But it's pretty hilarious to read about your attempts in ZvT, the shock factor would make me GG out even if I was winning.
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On February 14 2012 14:10 IBM wrote:
I love this...this is really how a game progresses, instead of calling hydras bad he actually tries to incorporate them into his play. 2 thumbs up Endofline!!
<3<3<3
This really makes the hours I put into searching for the best pics and doing the write up worth it!
I hope to have access to blogging if the admins think Im worthy!
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On February 14 2012 14:16 Mobius_1 wrote:
IMHO Hydras are like more expensive slow Marines that cost gas.
Which is kind of a synonym for "bad". But it's pretty hilarious to read about your attempts in ZvT, the shock factor would make me GG out even if I was winning.
rofl,
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Can you post some replays?
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On February 14 2012 14:24 TBone- wrote:
Can you post some replays?
Yes. I could probably do that tomorrow. PM me to remind me
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in my opinion hydras are terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible zvt.
endofline is a hero for trying to make them work though.
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On February 14 2012 14:28 LuckyFool wrote:
in my opinion hydras are terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible zvt.
endofline is a hero for trying to make them work though.
hahaha <3 Luckyfool. Maybe I'll have it all worked out for the next DC lan!!
HydrasRAWR
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what are you doing to make them work. what are the pros/cons apart from killing drops and flying buildings
also you mention that you place 3rd to bait a push and i know alot of terrans do this push regardless but what happens when you vers a passive meching terran?
and what makes hydras so much better then just pure ling/bling from the baited push
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Personally, the simple fact that they have higher range and AA capabilities as compared to roaches actually make them much more valuable imo, and spread lings make decent enough tanks as seen in ling/bane attacks. Creep attacks will be easy to cleanup, and tank snipes too... I think its worth investigating in, but unfortunately off-creep they're so slow and really squishy.... But i do admire your attempts, and as a toss that fears hydra before mid-late game, I hope that T can feel our pain too rather than getting off with siege tanks.
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Big props in trying to incorporate hydras in a matchup that's been using the same basic units for a long time now
Also, those are some of the most hilarious pictures I've seen on TL in a while
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Which Day9 cast was the one with Zenio and Hydra usage?
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Where's the replays? ....... ....... WAT
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Good write up and I am glad people are trying to mix up the game, and in a funny/creative way too!
One problem with hydras ZvT is blue flame hellions, they can roast the hell out of small groups of hydras.... and tanks blast em too... pretty much mech in general is not good for hydras, but as drop defense and roach/bane backup I think they work nicely!
EDIT: Like poster above me, replays would be cool ^_^
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You are either a:
a. brilliant visionary or
b. the next "drone rush in bronze league blog guy"
Either way, I'm hooked. Love the pictures + not much text, very easy and entertaining read
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Nice write up, I'd like to see the replays for this on here though, as well as a general build.
I think this could work really, really well in HotS with the hive tech hydra upgrade+ vipers
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Nice, now make a corrupter/drone army composition work in the ZvT midgame please!
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Very, very nice. I've been doing Hydra and Ling drops on Terrans with great success. Always have excess minerals with Zerg, may as well throw away Lings.... properly. For the Hydra Drops, I use them to snipe things such as add-ons and Turrets/Depots at the edge of bases. Seems to be very annoying.
Never lose your Hydras from your Drops if at all possible. The dropships (Overlords) aren't too important since you have like 100 of them, but Hydra Drops cost 200 Gas and attention from Terran. 2 OLs with 8 Lings and 4 Hydra is very nice, since you use the Lings on SCVs and Hydras on add-ons and shit. Terran HAS to kill the Lings first, giving Hydras valuable sniping time and a very easy escape route. Bring another set of Hydras and you can snipe big buildings, like Starports and stuff. =)
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On February 14 2012 13:07 EndOfLine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 13:05 HornyHydra wrote:
I wonder if this will turn into a NaDa's Body thread for me... lmao! I should PM Nada and ask if he is still interested.
Lol his account name is HornyHydra too.
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I tried to make them work for the longest time.
Trust me, I love the hydra...
but I just gave up...infestor lings are way better for your gas
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On February 14 2012 15:52 VashTS wrote:
Very, very nice. I've been doing Hydra and Ling drops on Terrans with great success. Always have excess minerals with Zerg, may as well throw away Lings.... properly. For the Hydra Drops, I use them to snipe things such as add-ons and Turrets/Depots at the edge of bases. Seems to be very annoying.
Never lose your Hydras from your Drops if at all possible. The dropships (Overlords) aren't too important since you have like 100 of them, but Hydra Drops cost 200 Gas and attention from Terran. 2 OLs with 8 Lings and 4 Hydra is very nice, since you use the Lings on SCVs and Hydras on add-ons and shit. Terran HAS to kill the Lings first, giving Hydras valuable sniping time and a very easy escape route. Bring another set of Hydras and you can snipe big buildings, like Starports and stuff. =)
Haha thats actually a pretty funny idea. Reminds me of Idra vs cruncher in the TSL3 on terminus. hydra ling drops r strong.
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here is how hydras should be used in ZvT
yes, hydras are basically expensive slow marines that cost gas, however assume you had two giant endgame armies for terran and for zerg with mostly super high end units
then, the terran has 8 marines and 1 medivac, which is 10food. and adds that to the army
the zerg adds 5 hydras to his army
the hydras have 1more range than the marines and pretty much are doing way more damage that is less effected by armor that also doesnt need to constantly stim. actually thats a moot point because i added the medivac to heal stim damage, but that means its really 8 marines dishing out damage because the terran needs the 1 medivac to heal stim, while the zerg gets to use 5 hydras
there are many units with many roles split between them in endgame armies. alot of that is tanking (being done by broodlord shots or roaches for zerg, and marauders/tanks/hellions/thors for terran) and then dishing out aoe damage and theres flyers and spellcasters
however, in the realm of a small force of shock troops that stand in the back and just dish out damage, and dont need to worry about being hit, thats the only realm where hydras can actually shine and equal the marine. in that huge endgame army scenario your 5 hydras will be dishing out lots of damage while everything else is going on
this concept is pretty much the ONLY, SINGLE actual viable purpose / use for the hydra that i can see. because roaches are pound for pound simply better in combat, and every other unit is better at pretty much everything, EXCEPT in terms of damage dealing while something else is tanking for you.
thats how you need to use hydras. use them as icing on the cake. you need you main army first, you need something to tank for the hydras and do all other jobs BESIDES damage. then, once you have your big army, sprinkle about 5 or 6 hydras into it and watch the insane damage being dealt
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I think hydras are good vs this, but not vs Mech
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I've seen them the first time in ZvT in a game DieStar lost against a good EU zerg (cannot remember who, someone like syz) in a hydra push. A hydra timing just before siege can be devastating with lings support. After that I guess it remains to be seen.
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Nice that you try to make them fit!
I started using them against any Terran airplay and ascertained that its allways good to have some hydras in the mix especially you can kill all medivacs within their pushes or as you mentioned to stop medivac drop play (fungle + hydras is so much fun!)
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Kudos for trying this.
I went through a bit of a hydra period as well, and had some ups and downs with them.
Basically, everything they do (in any match-up) is pretty much just simply worse than what the infestor can do, except it is not constrained by energy, which helps out in small engagements, or long continuous incessant combat. If you think about ZvP for example, roach hydra is great for non-stop aggression and keeping the pressure on a protoss before they have a colossus, but with roach infestor you get one sickly good battle (way better than roach hydra), and then you are effectively down to pure roach again, so if they somehow save enough forcefields or immortals, you have to stop attacking, and then they get huge.
For a while I tried using them as a bridge unit in ZvT, going ling/hydra before ling/infestor, so I didn't have to worry about not having energy to deal with drops after the first push or whatever. but they just weren't good enough. Anything the hydra can do, the infestor can do better. The queen also outperforms the hydra in a lot of situations.
Here are some situations where I did like hydras.
- Fighting against bad terrain - for example, the siege tank push + elevator on Tal'darim. Hydras were very good against that. On maps like the old shakuras and typhon peaks where they push through the rocks. Hydras were quite good against that because he couldn't just poke with 5 marines and kill drones, then try to bait you back to his tanks.
- Late game broodlord/hydra/infestor. I just kept 6-10 hydralisks in the same control group as my infestors and they were great for supporting broodlords.
- They can /dance so you can BM your opponent for losing to hydras.
Now I use queens for both of those purposes, and I have no trouble getting safely to infestors because I just make a million zerglings. There may be a few little spots where hydras are good, but they are few and far between.
Well queens can't /dance, but you can still manner creep his main base and that's pretty good too.
Good luck in your quest.
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On February 14 2012 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
I think hydras are good vs this, but not vs Mech
Actually, there was a thread about beating mech a while back; People actually recommended using Hydras against the mech ball. I don't remember any details, only that they were saying that it was the one situation that you would get them.
Now though, there are two or three different times/places you can use them in.
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I've been opening hydra vs protoss going forge expand for the past 2 weeks. i get lair before ling speed, tech hydra from 3 bases and get +2 attack, and then do a 11-13 minute timing depending on the protoss build. I've surprisingly had huge success with hydra ling timing pushes.
you stop any stargate shananigans, rape any pre-emptive immortal play as so many protoss do these days, it helps hold warp prism play well and does insane damage to gateway units. it does surprisingly well vs colos in small numbers too.
i have tried them vs terran too but they die too quickly to hellion with blue flame. they do really well vs mass Thor and marauder too but not much else. can't wait for the speed buff in hots
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On February 14 2012 17:35 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
I think hydras are good vs this, but not vs Mech Actually, there was a thread about beating mech a while back; People actually recommended using Hydras against the mech ball. I don't remember any details, only that they were saying that it was the one situation that you would get them. Now though, there are two or three different times/places you can use them in.
not with blue flame hellions around. could you link that page?
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On February 14 2012 15:02 Mjolnir wrote:
Which Day9 cast was the one with Zenio and Hydra usage?
I think it was zenioOwnage
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On February 14 2012 15:43 NeonFox wrote:
Nice, now make a corrupter/drone army composition work in the ZvT midgame please!
lmao, Dont temp me
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Thought I was the only one who was using hydras in zvt, Im high masters and my tactic involves opening with roachs lings and banes early on depending on what the terren does I can either try an all in bane bust or i skip making banes and just play safe and get 2 base saturated
From here after lair is up I throw down the hydra den and play defensively while defending my third base and droneing up.
I tend to only make around 9 to 11 hydras and split them up to have around 3 at each base with 2 roachs with them this allows full protection from drops, and then all my lings are spread giving me map control (if they have hellions ill send some roachs about instead)
The key to using roach hydra is going for fast +2 armour (it times out to hit just when a normal 2-3 siege tank push would come) and with this armour you can defend easily and only lose lings with good spread
The follow up is go get drop and tech infestor and get melee upgrades go to hive and get ultra (since you will have 3/3 on the way)
The transition is a really nice one, the problem with hydra roach is that you can't engage into a terrens siege line (unless its in the open) so you won't be able to take down their 3rd at all but with drop you can drop a huge roach ling hydra army into their main (and some at the 3rd) and they will have to reposition their whole army to try and stop it (as marines on their own can't clean it up) and by that time you will have traded your army very well and can remax ling infestor and get ultras out and take a 4th and 5th)
Its a different take on the zvt playstyle and feels pretty strong atmo and i hope others start using it more
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I have updated the OP,
ADDED a pro/con section
On February 14 2012 21:28 Shibbxyz wrote:
Thought I was the only one who was using hydras in zvt, Im high masters and my tactic involves opening with roachs lings and banes early on depending on what the terren does I can either try an all in bane bust or i skip making banes and just play safe and get 2 base saturated
From here after lair is up I throw down the hydra den and play defensively while defending my third base and droneing up.
I tend to only make around 9 to 11 hydras and split them up to have around 3 at each base with 2 roachs with them this allows full protection from drops, and then all my lings are spread giving me map control (if they have hellions ill send some roachs about instead)
The key to using roach hydra is going for fast +2 armour (it times out to hit just when a normal 2-3 siege tank push would come) and with this armour you can defend easily and only lose lings with good spread
The follow up is go get drop and tech infestor and get melee upgrades go to hive and get ultra (since you will have 3/3 on the way)
The transition is a really nice one, the problem with hydra roach is that you can't engage into a terrens siege line (unless its in the open) so you won't be able to take down their 3rd at all but with drop you can drop a huge roach ling hydra army into their main (and some at the 3rd) and they will have to reposition their whole army to try and stop it (as marines on their own can't clean it up) and by that time you will have traded your army very well and can remax ling infestor and get ultras out and take a 4th and 5th)
Its a different take on the zvt playstyle and feels pretty strong atmo and i hope others start using it more
Thank you for this post. Our play styles are very similar.
Also, I have also found that +2 armor is a very usefull
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On February 14 2012 15:55 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 13:07 EndOfLine wrote:On February 14 2012 13:05 HornyHydra wrote:
I wonder if this will turn into a NaDa's Body thread for me... lmao! I should PM Nada and ask if he is still interested. Lol his account name is HornyHydra too.
Meant to happen
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I remember in the beta I would go infestor hydra aginst every terran since all they did was make marauders and marines (this is still true to an extent), fungal+hydra range makes it nice and easy to shoot at terran without them shooting back.
Then some smart guy decided to make siege tanks and make my whole hydra life a lie.
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When I played Z I played around alot whit hydras, however Im to much of a noob to make it work :S
great reading thou and keep up the good work and hope u succed :D
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On February 14 2012 14:16 Mobius_1 wrote:
IMHO Hydras are like more expensive slow Marines that cost gas.
Which is kind of a synonym for "bad". But it's pretty hilarious to read about your attempts in ZvT, the shock factor would make me GG out even if I was winning.
Marines and Hydras are the same speed by default. And a hydra on creep is the same speed as a stimmed marine. A hydra by default is more than 2x marine DPS.
The problem with hydras is their durability. 80 HP is far too little. For the gas, for the lack of armor, they're too expensive to lose as easily as you do.
For comparison, Hellions are far faster and tougher than hydralisks, with no gas cost.
Giving hydras 110 or so HP, I think, makes them work in the zerg army. Alternatively, give them some armor.
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All things considered, they need some more durability.
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Hydras with early attack upgrades and drop are good against Meching Terrans for base races.
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I once when hydra in a z v t. The guy triple racks quasi all in'ed me on TDA. He expanded behind it and went triple starport cloakshee. Nydus+hydra+queen spread in front of his natural at TDA. Very funny.
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I suggest looking at the very old threads, if you can find them.
Hydras are actually not a new strategy, its a really old strategy.
For example, in ZvP, every toss and their mom started going for colossus rushes super early. So zergs stopped using hydras, obviously. Now that 6gate/starport openers are a lot more common than fast robos, hydras probably have a role once again.
As for the terran matchup, well believe it or not, at some point everyone thought tanks were crap, and pretty much no terrans used them. Hydras were then quite decent, ling-bling roach hydra, and ling-bling muta was the big idea. And then terrans started using tanks a ton, and thats basically what stopped ppl from using hydras.
But yeah, check out the older threads, you should find a lot of ideas, everything from hydra roach to hydraling, hydraqueen pushing or overload highways to make hydra timing pushes asap. Tons of janky stuff, but also some pretty decent stuff.
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No man. hydra dies to fast in tvz.
Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas.
Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines.
Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only.
NOT A Good trade off.
To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas.
Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man.
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On February 15 2012 02:00 brimestone wrote:
No man. hydra dies to fast in tvz.
Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas.
Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines.
Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only.
NOT A Good trade off.
To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas.
Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man.
This is why you get a couple of roaches to soak up the damage and an early +1 armour means you would lose nothing
And if they have 1 tank you just spread and it does nothing if they have 2 you can still spread and it will do nothing
as long as you keep the hydras controlled well and units to tank for them they will destroy a terren army before they get a huge siege tank count but lately terrens have been delaying their siege tanks for longer and longer
Another point to make is usually a zerg has lots of lings and banes and the terren will split all his marines running from banes while this is happening the lings will be doing nothing but dieing to siege tanks since they can't catch up
But if you have some roach and hydra in there as well they will always be doing damage to units and because the marines have to run away from the banes they won't be taken much damage apart from the seige splash (which when in small numbers can be reduced by a huge amount with simple splitting of units)
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On February 15 2012 02:00 brimestone wrote:
No man. hydra dies to fast in tvz.
Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas.
Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines.
Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only.
NOT A Good trade off.
To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas.
Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man.
Did you read my OP?
I am forcing them to work 
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I saw TLO using hydras vesus a meching terran once, and it took me 4 days to get my chin back up. IT WAS SO GOD DAWN AMAZING. Yea theres a lot of room for hydras, maybe instead of mutas... hydra drop?
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Mad props for using Hydras. You are awesome.
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I really look up to players like you, I adore the Hydra and I think it is my favorite unit and I also try to force them to work in ZvT. But I only seem to beat players that are much under my skill level =[
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So I spent a long time going through all my old zvt replays, seaching for Hydra vs mech, and only found one. . . (even though I know I had others.. damn)
So this means that I am going to either:
1. to have to own a few terrans on ladder to get more screen shots for part 2, OR
2. Add a some of the new screen shots to this one.
What do you all want?
Also, I am still going to add 1-2 replays for those interested later ^_^
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Damn, now I want to try playing with hydras. They look so cool...they're like the zergs most iconic unit. Thanks for the amazing pictures, I also like the funny responses you got .
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hydras are really good in their spots in all matchups. have you ever tryed a 2 base hydra/ling timing in zvz? its incredibly safe and you can be aggressive anyway. you may say: "well banelings will just rape you" - only if you suck 
i did some roach hydra in zvt too. its only good on specific maps like shakuras. take the 3rd thats closer to the middle, defend it with roach hydra, then go into muta or infestor as you expand away from T.
hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.)
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I was once like you, my friend! I even started a thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235527
It's tricky, because Hydras are so expensive... dropping them seems so scary. But you basically NEED either Nydus or drop to use them aggressively. They actually defend drops pretty well IMO... a few at a base can focus down the medivac extremely quickly.
It seems like Blizzard designed them to be defensive (based on their creep speed upgrade) and maybe offensive in the late game (when creepspread is bigger).
I think that Hydras mixed in with Brood Lords and/or Ultralisks could be EXTREMELY strong. The Ultra is the epitome of tankiness, and the Hydras can just do so more damage. They also aren't terrible at trying to kill off Vikings, especially with Infestor support.
I really hope that we see more hydras in the late game once zerg players get their "deathball" going.
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On February 15 2012 05:30 Tal0n wrote:hydras are really good in their spots in all matchups. have you ever tryed a 2 base hydra/ling timing in zvz? its incredibly safe and you can be aggressive anyway. you may say: "well banelings will just rape you" - only if you suck i did some roach hydra in zvt too. its only good on specific maps like shakuras. take the 3rd thats closer to the middle, defend it with roach hydra, then go into muta or infestor as you expand away from T. hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.)
I agree Hydras have a place in ZvZ, but a Hydra-Ling push, in ZvZ? That just sounds terrible... Maybe the execution would end up being okay, but you'd literally have to be Marineking to not just straight up lose to someone making banes.
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I played a game against mrbitter in like season 3-4 on ladder where he kept trying to make hydra/roach work. It just didn't back then, but I never seem to find hydras as bad units against terrans. Tanks don't do enough damage to them, lol.
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Hydralisks are bad in ZvT because of terran's most commonly used units: ground units like hellions and marines. Not only are hellions and marines good against them, but they're ground units so hydras never make use of their air attack, half the reason of ever using them.
Terrans very rarely seem to use marauders or banshees in large quantities, which is pretty much the only thing hydralisks can be effective at dealing with; maybe also thors.
The reduction of hellion's blue-flame damage will really help zerg to use hydralisks, but I'm not sure if it's enough (have not tested). Marines are far too strong (for hydras to deal with) due to their speed(stim), fast attack speed (stim), instant attack, ability to be healed, and damage & health per cost.
Sure, hydralisks can do well as a support unit in attack, but what about just switching each hydralisk for 2 banelings or 4 zerglings?
Lastly, I will acknowledge that at the end of a game, it's best to get a bit of every unit if you can control them well though, and that would include hydralisks (especially vs protoss), but I really would not say it's a good thing to do in early or mid game ZvT.
Terrans have possibly become complacent at scouting their opponent due to common builds done by zerg, but if a terran just floats a building or two to the zerg, it's all they need to easily deal with hydralisks
On February 15 2012 05:30 Tal0n wrote:
hydras are really good in their spots in all matchups. have you ever tryed a 2 base hydra/ling timing in zvz? its incredibly safe and you can be aggressive anyway. you may say: "well banelings will just rape you" - only if you suck I quite strongly disagree
hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.)
No. That's some sort of urban legend, i don't know how it exists — maybe a bit from brood war or protoss whiners, or zergs that don't know how they really won.
Charge Zealots beat hydralisks, and stalkers beat hydralisks (stalkers are tied when you compare ranged hydralisks to non-blink stalker, but if you compare non-ranged hydralisk to stalker, or blink stalker to ranged hydralisk, the stalkers will win). Sentries are very good against hydralisks due to guardian shield. Phoenix work well against hydralisks too, although I don't know if they are completely cost-efficient (but due to their speed, they don't even have to be, since they can pick off overlords and stray ground units).
And even if hydralisks did beat non-colossus non-high-templar units, the fact that high templar and colossus dominate them is still a pretty significant problem.
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That's me! I remember that game clearly, and I feel like that game I played against you was an example as to why hydras aren't very good in the midgame. They're better than I thought, because I decided to a-move you before any of my upgrades completed and get demolished by the banelings, and I still didn't lose there. If a Terran just plays defensively and takes expoes, you'll be screwed, maxed on something even worse than ling/bling/muta. Hydras don't let you get hive ever with the amount of gas they cost, and 3/3 marines with a good tank count will shred everything. Their gas cost also forces infestors to be late, and you need these high tech units to defeat the much more cost efficient marine/tank/medivac.
Also, queens are a much gas cheaper unit at focusing down medivacs, the only good thing hydras seem to do. They're dead supply and gas, and a turtling Terran needs to make a huge mistake to lose against them (much like I did).
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You just made me start a game on my diamond account (main is master) and force myself into hydras! thx! =)
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Fun Fact! Since Hydras are light, they survive just as many sieged tank shells as do Roaches, and several more Marauder shells.
Less fun fact! Since Hydras are light, Blue Flame Hellions wreck their faces. Back when I was Platinum and Terran, I did some mass air play vs Zerg with Hellions as my mineral sink, and those Zergs that decided to try Hydras as a response died this way. So hydras aren't going to get much done vs mech, seeing as the exendible Hellions are more than happy to suicide their way toward the Hydras and get in one blast which annihilates every last Hydra you have.
As a protoss, I have no fear of Hydras because I don't make Sentries. The reason Hydras are purported to be good vs basic gateway armies is that their long range makes the force fields that most gateway armies hinge on mostly ineffective - any Sentries beyond the one doing Guardian Shield just don't accomplish much of anything for the protoss player when Hydras are around.
Have you seen Phoenix + ground army (basically doesn't matter what) vs Roach/Hydra? It's not pretty for the Zerg.
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You Protosses who are claiming hydras aren't good against gateway armies are crazy, go give it a shot in a unit tester. Don't build all hydras vs all zealots or stalkers or something stupid, give it a real composition. SOmething like hydra ling against zealot stalker. The hydras will freaking wreck.
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On February 15 2012 05:49 Steak_ wrote:
That's me! I remember that game clearly, and I feel like that game I played against you was an example as to why hydras aren't very good in the midgame. They're better than I thought, because I decided to a-move you before any of my upgrades completed and get demolished by the banelings, and I still didn't lose there. If a Terran just plays defensively and takes expoes, you'll be screwed, maxed on something even worse than ling/bling/muta. Hydras don't let you get hive ever with the amount of gas they cost, and 3/3 marines with a good tank count will shred everything. Their gas cost also forces infestors to be late, and you need these high tech units to defeat the much more cost efficient marine/tank/medivac.
Also, queens are a much gas cheaper unit at focusing down medivacs, the only good thing hydras seem to do. They're dead supply and gas, and a turtling Terran needs to make a huge mistake to lose against them (much like I did).
HELLO!
<3
Yes, when I pushed to your third for the 4th time without any tanking unit support, you pwned those hydras! I face palmed a bit then.
Your tank positioning then was friggen sweet!
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On February 15 2012 05:36 TheSambassador wrote:I was once like you, my friend! I even started a thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235527It's tricky, because Hydras are so expensive... dropping them seems so scary. But you basically NEED either Nydus or drop to use them aggressively. They actually defend drops pretty well IMO... a few at a base can focus down the medivac extremely quickly. It seems like Blizzard designed them to be defensive (based on their creep speed upgrade) and maybe offensive in the late game (when creepspread is bigger). I think that Hydras mixed in with Brood Lords and/or Ultralisks could be EXTREMELY strong. The Ultra is the epitome of tankiness, and the Hydras can just do so more damage. They also aren't terrible at trying to kill off Vikings, especially with Infestor support. I really hope that we see more hydras in the late game once zerg players get their "deathball" going.
SHHHHHH! I am currenlty testing (forcing) this
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On February 15 2012 02:00 brimestone wrote:
No man. hydra dies to fast in tvz.
Even if they are like stim marines. They still cos gas.
Lets say 10 hydras is = to 15 marines.
Thats 1000 minerals and 500 gas. For terran thats 750 minerals only.
NOT A Good trade off.
To make matters worse. 15 marines plus a tank. Thats just 900 minerals and 100 gas.
Now will ten hydras kill 15 marines plus a tank? No way man.
I never said hydras are better.
I am saying that hydra style is VERY tough to use.
Plus, I am using them to see where they can and can not shine in battle
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On February 15 2012 05:30 Tal0n wrote:hydras are really good in their spots in all matchups. have you ever tryed a 2 base hydra/ling timing in zvz? its incredibly safe and you can be aggressive anyway. you may say: "well banelings will just rape you" - only if you suck i did some roach hydra in zvt too. its only good on specific maps like shakuras. take the 3rd thats closer to the middle, defend it with roach hydra, then go into muta or infestor as you expand away from T. hydras are beast in zvp. they beat everything which is why colossus and HT need to hardcounter them (don't mistake this for an argument that sc2 is extremely well designed pls.)
I am currently doing this in zvz and saving alot of really fun content for Part 2 or Part 3 of the Hydra pilgrimage!
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I don't really know about zvt, but in zvp I think there's definitely potential in hydras, but its going to be really really really hard to figure out how to use them. As a protoss player I've been in situations where I get immortal archon + gateway core army and just get completely destroyed by a ton of hydras, but it really takes zerg a long time to reach that critical mass, and sentries can still turn the tide in our favor, especially if the protoss has denied your creep spread.
I've also been testing out with a friend of mine trying to replicate what we saw on Day 9's video with warpgate units vs ling hydra, but it hasn't been working out for my zerg practice partner as well as we thought it would. I made an adjustment by using a warp prism instead of a proxy pylon so the initial lings scouting the map dont have a probe/pylon to go around and snipe, and in the blinkstalker vs hydra battle, it seems very very necessary to hit very accurate timings because unlike roaches, hydras have so little hp, it feels like an all in in terms of defense, if you start losing at any point with hydras out you'll just keep on losing, and +2 attack means you reach a breakpoint where we 7 hit hydras instead of 8 hit them, or you'll get a nice concave and crush the attack really hard. Though I think it can be used better than a roach ling defense, because hydras will keep on firing and deal damage due to range, which means that it is no longer a sit and pray situation where you either need a flank already set up, or hope the protoss messes up his force fields.
Just as advice I think it might be better off to explore hydras more as a response, perhaps to air openers if you can be sure to pull of a timing before collosus, or as a remax after your remove our tech units like our collosus. Just my two cents.
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Hey there, i do like the idea of trying new and different thing out so a few days ago i did try to go hydras in a ZvT. the original idea being to drop then behind the mineral line and use their amazing DPS to destroys the economy in stead of muta harass, well that never happened but a fun crazy game did!
so the game overview goes like this, he went harass crazy, did almost no dmg, we both drop each other and come out even for the most part, then the fighting in the middle is what i was really happy with, hydras on creep can punish any terran mistakes, such as destroy any siege tank that moves up to far to siege, kite marines out of siege range then turn and kill em all and force terran in to awkward and bad positions. lastly i did not win this, the terran lost this you'll see what i mean if you watch, but i think hydras were key in forcing the terran mistakes, some were just bad (really really bad) unit control.
http://drop.sc/112249
Also, awesome post endofline, love the pics n love the creative play!!! keep it up
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If you want to go Hydras as you primary unit for mid-game ZvZ, you NEED infestors and really good infestor control. Banelings will F you in the A if you try to play with mostly hydras. Or, of course, go the more standard roach/hydra, but it seems that you are trying to avoid the norm right now, which is awesome.
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On February 15 2012 06:33 Felnarion wrote:
You Protosses who are claiming hydras aren't good against gateway armies are crazy, go give it a shot in a unit tester. Don't build all hydras vs all zealots or stalkers or something stupid, give it a real composition. SOmething like hydra ling against zealot stalker. The hydras will freaking wreck.
Hydras destroy Stalkers and Sentries, but really aren't that great vs. Chargelots. But, of course, that's why they should sit behind a roach wall to tank the charges.
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Funny stuff and interesting to read. Please tell me when you get hydras down to an art so I can copycat. Not brave and adventurous enough to go where only you and probably few others have gone before!
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On February 15 2012 08:45 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Funny stuff and interesting to read. Please tell me when you get hydras down to an art so I can copycat. Not brave and adventurous enough to go where only you and probably few others have gone before!
hahahha. Roger
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If you lose against terran in a game you're making hydras it shouldn't count as a loss.
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Waiting for replays, can't wait to see them and start building hydras vs Terran.
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Hydra-Ling is way better than you might think in ZvT. Try it out sometime. (It even works vs hellions)
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Maybe include nydus worms? It's on lair tech as well so not that much of a problem...
It's good for sniping imo...
The hydra "shock" plus the nydus scream makes it a real psychological offense :D
But then again...I'm diamond protoss who only play zerg for fun...
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On February 15 2012 13:52 Checkm8 wrote:
Maybe include nydus worms? It's on lair tech as well so not that much of a problem...
It's good for sniping imo...
The hydra "shock" plus the nydus scream makes it a real psychological offense :D
But then again...I'm diamond protoss who only play zerg for fun...
I was watching Korean Weekly and what the Zerg did was use Nydus instead of walking his troops. The success of Hydras I feel directly correlate to the effectiveness is the Zerg players Nydus play.
I am not saying you need to get a Nydus into their base, but rather use nyduses to reinforce your attacks and to retreat when needed. Kind of like how Protosses build proxy pylons as they progress across the map.
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On February 15 2012 14:25 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 13:52 Checkm8 wrote:
Maybe include nydus worms? It's on lair tech as well so not that much of a problem...
It's good for sniping imo...
The hydra "shock" plus the nydus scream makes it a real psychological offense :D
But then again...I'm diamond protoss who only play zerg for fun... I was watching Korean Weekly and what the Zerg did was use Nydus instead of walking his troops. The success of Hydras I feel directly correlate to the effectiveness is the Zerg players Nydus play. I am not saying you need to get a Nydus into their base, but rather use nyduses to reinforce your attacks and to retreat when needed. Kind of like how Protosses build proxy pylons as they progress across the map.
I also saw this recently. Cool stuff!
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it is so fucking funny to play. :D
just go for 4 queen gasless opening with 1 or 2 spines into 3rd + makrohatch ling hydra + 4 "creepspread"-queens which you suicide in his tank line to take splash damage if he pushes. transition pretty fast into infestors (you really only need 15 hydras so you can transition pretty fast) since the problem arent the tanks but the stimmed, upgraded, medivacsupported marines.
best thing about this style: you REALLY get better spreading creep. and although hydras are gas heavy, you trade the gas in form of killing his medivacs.
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Lol that was great. I used to try hydras a bunch when I played zerg, I just never found a good place for them
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zvt hydras are very bad vs mech though. Mostly due to tanks + BFHs, both just deal far too much damage to the fragile hydras.
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Roach hydra is completely viable in ZvZ and ZvP. Trying to force hydras into ZvT will just get you killed though. In ZvT banelings do a better job of killing ground units and mutas are better at handling air.
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On February 16 2012 02:40 Uranium wrote:
Roach hydra is completely viable in ZvZ and ZvP. Trying to force hydras into ZvT will just get you killed though. In ZvT banelings do a better job of killing ground units and mutas are better at handling air.
I think you missed the point of the OP friend
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well it's a start, if anything HotS will hopefully be their final salvation
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On February 16 2012 06:06 HaXXspetten wrote:
well it's a start, if anything HotS will hopefully be their final salvation
This is actually a good a point.
I will be supre prepared for HOTS!
:D
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it would be nice if you add a BO to your OP.
personally i am going for:
9 ovi
15 hatch
15 pool
17 ovi
4 lings + double queen
25-26 ovi
5:00 spine natural
3rd und 4th queen insta after first 2 queens
5:30 spine natural
38-42 all 4 gas
evo chamber
1. 100 gas lingspeed
2. 100 gas lair
3. 150 gas +1 carapace
as soon as lair is done: ovispeed, hydra den, infestation pit
hydra range + PG + 8 hydras, add infestors till 6 then hydras to 15. mass ling + 2nd evo
how to play it:
as soon as your 3rd and 4th queen is out: creep your way forward with the 2nd spine + 2 queens + first spine defending it. creep forward to your 3rd and take it asap. add makrohatch as soon as you have the minerals for it.
when your 3rd is finished dont take your 5th and 6th gas instantly and go for mass lings and drones instead since you will have enough hydras and infestors then but are mineral starved.
just played it 5 times (won 5 times :D, midmaster) so there is definetly a lot of space to do it better. eventually you need a blingnest and the timings can be better of coure
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On February 17 2012 05:08 Decendos wrote:it would be nice if you add a BO to your OP. personally i am going for: 9 ovi 15 hatch 15 pool 17 ovi 4 lings + double queen 25-26 ovi 5:00 spine natural 3rd und 4th queen insta after first 2 queens 5:30 spine natural 38-42 all 4 gas evo chamber 1. 100 gas lingspeed 2. 100 gas lair 3. 150 gas +1 carapace as soon as lair is done: ovispeed, hydra den, infestation pit hydra range + PG + 8 hydras, add infestors till 6 then hydras to 15. mass ling + 2nd evo how to play it: as soon as your 3rd and 4th queen is out: creep your way forward with the 2nd spine + 2 queens + first spine defending it. creep forward to your 3rd and take it asap. add makrohatch as soon as you have the minerals for it. when your 3rd is finished dont take your 5th and 6th gas instantly and go for mass lings and drones instead since you will have enough hydras and infestors then but are mineral starved. just played it 5 times (won 5 times :D, midmaster) so there is definetly a lot of space to do it better. eventually you need a blingnest and the timings can be better of coure
Awesome!! Love it. Your build order is the one I use when I scout gasless tworax. Ill add a BO
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Hydras are actually better against Ultras than Roaches from my experience so thats one more use of them atleast in ZvZ
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On February 17 2012 06:56 Bastilol wrote:
Hydras are actually better against Ultras than Roaches from my experience so thats one more use of them atleast in ZvZ
Hydras have better DPS and aren't Armored.
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On February 17 2012 06:59 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:56 Bastilol wrote:
Hydras are actually better against Ultras than Roaches from my experience so thats one more use of them atleast in ZvZ Hydras have better DPS and aren't Armored.
Also they take less damage from a Fungal and have more Range so you can Focus Fire the Ultras way better than with Roaches imo
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for similiar reasons as the OP i played around with hydras in zvt for most of season 4. i went on a 18 game win streak vs terran using them at one point (diamond lvl). for the cost they provide a strong punch that other zerg playstyles dont possess. the key is really having the right mix of units as the OP points out. if you do that you will find most (all) of the tanking units will be dead after the battle, but you will have half or so of your hydras left. add on 8-10 more and then build the rest to counter their response.
sometimes (marine/tank) it would be better to not have hydras, but if youre going to play the odds hydras will work against the majority of terran strats i feel. if you havent ever tried it, give bling ling muta a break for one night and use hydras.
its also fun, hydras cost 100\50 which is relatively cheap compared to infestors/mutas/t3. you can mass a shitload of ling bling hydra in surprisingly quick fashion. it feels more like the zerg i remember.
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I am bumping this old gem of a thread for a few reasons.
1. To let you know that I am not raving mad like you all thought I was. TY stephano. lol
2. I think most of you recent meta gamers are missing the real reason why roach hydra is so effective.
I have personally done hundreds of zvt with roach hydra. The real strength of the build is the 1/1 speed roach timing attack when the terran goes 3 oc with helion shee.
Basically, that terran build is very greedy and is a meta game build vs ling infester, or ling muta. the 1/1 roaches WILL do damage vs terran if they do this build, period.
If they do 3 oc, helion shee, into mech, you will instant win.
If they do 3 oc helion shee, into bio, you will deny the third, and do some damage, and go into the late game.
If they do 3 oc MMM, you will be behind, unless you get a sexy engagement.
3. With this build play you are extending your mid game, and delaying your late game. This means you need to use this unit comp to get new bases and or cause damage for it to work. One also needs to trade alot. You can not allow the terran to max out on 3 bases, or you will lose your lead, and or fall behind.
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Endofline this is like the ultimate time for "i told you so" :D
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rofl. *cough* I told you all so!
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I don't think hydras will ever work in ZvT. I'm a noob, but just looking at it "on paper," I don't see it. Compare them to marines: One hydra costs the same as two marines AND an extra 50 gas. It just so happens that a hydra is also exactly twice as damaging, and has twice as much health as two marines.
So when you buy a hydra, what you're really buying is two marines, paying an extra 50 gas, it's slower, and has no combat shields/stim pack upgrades. IMO it's pretty silly that there's almost no advantages whatsoever of hydras vs marines, and a ton of disadvantages.
The only advantage I can think of is a slightly higher range, and the fact that it's one medium-health unit instead of two low-health units, so it's a little stronger against splash damage. And they can burrow. Probably the strongest advantage is that they can practically be produced 20 at a time unlike marines. Still seems way underpowered to me though. Even with the speed upgrade in HotS, I can't think of a reason you would get hydras against the stimming, combat shielded, cheaper marines. IMO they need some sort of buff that lets them do something very well that marines can't do better.
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On January 13 2013 09:04 Bahku wrote:
I don't think hydras will ever work in ZvT. I'm a noob, but just looking at it "on paper," I don't see it. Compare them to marines: One hydra costs the same as two marines AND an extra 50 gas. It just so happens that a hydra is also exactly twice as damaging, and has twice as much health as two marines.
So when you buy a hydra, what you're really buying is two marines, paying an extra 50 gas, it's slower, and has no combat shields/stim pack upgrades. IMO it's pretty silly that there's almost no advantages whatsoever of hydras vs marines, and a ton of disadvantages.
The only advantage I can think of is a slightly higher range, and the fact that it's one medium-health unit instead of two low-health units, so it's a little stronger against splash damage. And they can burrow. Probably the strongest advantage is that they can practically be produced 20 at a time unlike marines. Still seems way underpowered to me though. Even with the speed upgrade in HotS, I can't think of a reason you would get hydras against the stimming, combat shielded, cheaper marines. IMO they need some sort of buff that lets them do something very well that marines can't do better.
I agree with your conclusion that hydras are just "more expensive marines"
however, I actually use it to bring about a different train of thought.
Yup, hydras are pretty much marines, however at the same time if zerg was allowed to make marines wouldnt that be kinda OP. Terrans dont have ultralisks, terrans dont have broodlords, terrans dont have that kind of super beeftank ground superiority. but zerg does. so if zerg could make marines that would be kinda wow when combined with all that
If you view it in that light, hydras can shine if you use them for their very limited role in the matchup.
stephano has shown hydras can be powerful in limited roles in the matchup from as much as early game to lategame. Some could say that terrans simply havent "figured it out yet" however fine lets just move to the ultimate lategame scenario
I believe super lategame in the ultimate lategame scenario when zerg has a broodlord/infestor/ultralisk/corrupter/queen army, I believe EVEN in this super lategame scenario hydras can be useful. If you add 6 hydras to your army, thats 12food, And I garuntee those 6 hydras will be outputting INSANE amounts of DPS and they will be left relatively untouched as the terran is dealing with every other aspect of your massive army. So even in that super ultimate lategame scenario, hydras have a reason to be made, those 12food in hydras is incredibly powerful in the zerg army and the DPS they are outputting is probably "worth" around 20food.
So i guess my point is, in that super ultimate lategame scenario I believe hydras do have, small as it may be, a purpose and a reason to be made.
And I feel as you move outwards from that super lategame scenario and focus on other areas of the game/match, I believe as long as you can prove a unit has a purpose / viability in the super-lategame then that pretty much means there is probably other small viabilities that exist for that unit in other stages of the game, because if its useful in the ultra lategame (as ive proved) then the unit cant be "all that bad" in my opinion.
sure, hydras are just more expensive marines, i agree with you there
however, on the flipside, if zergs could make marines that would be overpowered. So in a way, maybe thats the idea you should look at in order to figure out the true fate of hydras. maybe they arent as useless as we once thought
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On January 13 2013 09:54 bankobauss wrote:
snip
Haha, reminds me of an FFA I played a few days ago where I neural'd an SCV when I was so far ahead, then almost died because I sacced my army and ran out of gas. Literally, the thing that saved me was that I could produce marines as a zerg player, and it was INSANE good. I ran out of anti-air and gas so I thought my BL's were as good as dead, not true when you can just flood the ultra-versatile rines with excess minerals :p
So yeah, I see what you're saying: One of the strengths of the hydralisk is simply the synergy that it shares with other Zerg units. So in practice, they can have advantages over 'rines that they don't have on paper. I still don't like that mechanic though; the main strength of the hydra being "is a zerg unit."
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EPT
