EPT[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 15
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RimJaynor
Canada145 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 10 2012 05:51 RimJaynor wrote: I really like this build. It honestly 90% of the time at least gets me to mid game if i don't kill the zerg player. The one problem i've been having is hatch first then banes vs speed. Especially if my opponent doesn't waste his banes on my bait lings. Well when your first set of lings reach his base, a hatch-first baneling player will likely will only have 2 banelings and speedless lings. This is a crucial window to do some opening damage with reinforcing lings being produced/rallied to opponent immediately. It's absolutely possible to snipe those first few banelings and end the game outright with reinforcements, but at the very least you will force him to produce more defenses than usual and you should be able to engage in favorable situations against zerglings while sniping a queen or a few drones. With your opening zergling pressure, you must do some form of damage to stay even, but you might be surprised at how much continuing to mine gas while building spines/lings/banelings/queens stunts his early/midgame economy. | ||
Rewok
40 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Anyway thanks Tang, been using a similar style for a while and I think it's solid  | ||
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Shibbxyz
United Kingdom94 Posts
But this build does work really well I've come across it on ladder and the times I don't see the constant ling production I just get swarmed before I can make any lings of my own or enough defensive banelings to prevent some eco damage. It does work really well on Taldarim but on maps with a ramp the best you can do is deny the natural but the roach follow up can be killer. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
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Disarray
United States1164 Posts
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d00p
711 Posts
With this build ZvZs are fast and fun. I have lost a couple of games when the opponent went the exact same build and I made some small blunder/opponent executed better. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 22 2012 21:03 d00p wrote: With this build ZvZs are fast and fun. I have lost a couple of games when the opponent went the exact same build and I made some small blunder/opponent executed better. If they do the same build, the player that switches to roaches is the player that died first. I think against any similar mass-ling style, it's best to try to squeeze out a few drones and go banes (either defensively with spines or offensively with lots of lings). | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
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pulpSC
United States31 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:39 SlapMySalami wrote: you should make a guide on zenio's boring ass 15 hatch 4queen 3spine build that wins me so many zvzs I believe Day9 did a whole entire daily on this. Well, at least he does a walkthrough of Zenio's ZvZ. Day9 Daily - #387 [LiquidZenio's ZvZ] On March 10 2012 08:16 Kaitlin wrote: I used to have so much trouble with ZvZ, but since trying this strat (which I use every ZvZ now) I have literally not lost yet. Probably about 15 to 20 games. I had been playing Random, but now exclusively Zerg (for now). Funny, the build from the Terran thread on cheese-less macro, I have been using that build and also haven't lost a single game, while playing Random. I'm very surprised at both of these results. May I asked what league you are in? I found a couple people with your name on the ladders (looking them up online, not in game) but am just curious. I noticed that it seems when you try to do these very aggressive builds from about platinum and under, you tend to have much more success. However, with that being said and despite what was written in the guide, a big downfall is that if they manage to defend your aggression and you are the type of person of person who doesn't have a good sense of how much damage you did...you will get slowly get snowballed to death. | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
He also went for 15p/15g but 16h, but didn't get early speed. My early aggression killed his hatch and just 2 workers + some lings, but since he had banelings I decided to call the all-in there and transition by droning up and going for roaches etc and taking a third once saturated on both bases. Stayed active with my lings for awhile whilst transitioning to snipe some banelings etc, and even though we were quite even on workers for some time after the transition, I always felt quite far ahead. Thanks for this post, will keep using this and well, there was one point while I was doing aggression that my injects was 28seconds late for example + another injectround missed on the natural early on. Also whilst sniping his third I didn't notice he had double-expanded and taken the gold aswell (though didn't get much use of it), so can only get better at it and hopefully keep getting good results. http://drop.sc/141160 if anyone would like to give some pointers what I could do different if anything besides what I pointed out. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:39 SlapMySalami wrote: you should make a guide on zenio's boring ass 15 hatch 4queen 3spine build that wins me so many zvzs I do want to do a guide on Zenio's 3hatch Ling/Bane style | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 24 2012 17:13 Vond wrote: He also went for 15p/15g but 16h, but didn't get early speed. My early aggression killed his hatch and just 2 workers + some lings, but since he had banelings I decided to call the all-in there and transition by droning up and going for roaches etc and taking a third once saturated on both bases. Stayed active with my lings for awhile whilst transitioning to snipe some banelings etc, and even though we were quite even on workers for some time after the transition, I always felt quite far ahead. Yes if he goes straight for banelings, there's a nice window at around 5:30-5:50 where your speedlings can get in and do a lot of damage. While I usually prefer to go into the main and attempt to kill queens, drones, lings, and morphing banes, sometimes the correct decision is to kill the expansion and then back off a bit. What I usually do, if I want to macro, is drop a spine while I'm moving out and then a second spine a little later. Then, by keeping very active with my left-over zerglings (sniping banelings, spotting drones count at his expansion, etc), I can a) Prepare for his all-in by producing additional lings/spines. b) Drone up like crazy and get earlier upgrades with a later warren than my opponent. I almost always favour keeping the superior speedling count in throughout all ZvZ matches, so that if he tries to snipe my early-third with lings I can easily repel them (and also I can hopefully kill his 3rd). | ||
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Raamah
18 Posts
One question though: the build is quite highly optimised and so sending a drone scout muddies up some of the timings for production very early on. How do you scout with this build/in general in zvz? Does it depend on the map and if so what variations do you use on the different maps? Thanks a ton for remaining active in this thread too, even if a lot of players can't quite grasp the most useful areas of this build not actually being the attacks or direct damage you deal. You can't win with some people | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 30 2012 03:51 Raamah wrote: One question though: the build is quite highly optimised and so sending a drone scout muddies up some of the timings for production very early on. How do you scout with this build/in general in zvz? Does it depend on the map and if so what variations do you use on the different maps? Good question Raamah, I personally do not drone scout in ZvZ. Ever. I use my first and second overlords to determine my opponent's spawning location and scout their expansion. Knowing whether they've expanded by the 4minute mark is the critical information I need to defend 1-base all-ins. If you haven't scouted yet, you can always build a spine anytime after pool and cancel once you realize you're safe. That being said, a drone-scout does not impact your economy THAT much. You could consider scouting every game, or at least on 4-player maps like tal-darim altar and antiga shipyard. Personally, I prefer to build/cancel a spine and save the mining time. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote: This actually seems like a good place to ask this: Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg. And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way. Because I haven't seen a good response to this yet, I'll give it a go. The reason Zerg players play a greedy as possible for as long as possible, is because money they spend on drones is money that will compound and grow. If you were to spend money on units, then you would have to do damage with them, or else you'll fall behind where you optimally would be otherwise. For a Zerg player, the units need to have a purpose. Putting "pressure" on a Terran or Protoss just isn't effective unless you are using the threat to gain an economic lead or trying to end the game. T and P can apply pressure to Z to make them cut drones, but when Z pressures T or P, it just means they have to be wary about moving out. | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
zvz was only mu keeping me in dim lol | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 30 2012 16:45 silentdecay01 wrote: this guide is great, zvz was my worst match up..thought i would stay dim forever, I used this every time in zvz, Its not a all in. I used it as a ecom killer. kill the ecom of their 2nd base/expo. while i drone behind it, and tech up to roach infestor. thanks tang, got promoted to masters today just in time for season 7 zvz was only mu keeping me in dim lol I'm glad the guide has helped you, congrats on your promotion! If you're using the opening to transition into Roach/Infestor, that's great - Stephano does something very similar. I would just recommend you get a spine or 2 (more if you scout he's going tons of units instead of drones) because it's usually best to get the roach upgrades started before the warren. Best of luck! | ||
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