EPT[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 13
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
You were telling someone that you'd paypal them $20 if they left and you got GM because of it. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 23 2012 10:48 NoctemSC wrote: Saw a pic of you "in your natural habitat" on reddit. You were telling someone that you'd paypal them $20 if they left and you got GM because of it. It's a joke I made in season 3 taken out of context lol look at the poster, same guy who posted this: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/npitx/tt1_maphacks_just_like_in_brood_war/ | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On February 23 2012 10:51 TangSC wrote: It's a joke I made in season 3 taken out of context lol look at the poster, same guy who posted this: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/npitx/tt1_maphacks_just_like_in_brood_war/ Either way I just thought I'd let you know. I dislike when people put propaganda up about someone without them knowing. | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
Fucking amazing guide. It's saved ass in so many ZvZs I've had. | ||
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Fliparoni
205 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
If we could just keep these nonsensical "this game should be played in this and that way" out of this FFS. I fail how anyone can fail to see that having aggressive builds that force you to attack and macro at the same time (which is the hardest thing to do anyway) in a very early stage of the game doesn't get you much better skills overall than trying to sit back and pure macro until 80 drones. | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On February 23 2012 18:14 Mahtasooma wrote: If we could just keep these nonsensical "this game should be played in this and that way" out of this FFS. I fail how anyone can fail to see that having aggressive builds that force you to attack and macro at the same time (which is the hardest thing to do anyway) in a very early stage of the game doesn't get you much better skills overall than trying to sit back and pure macro until 80 drones. Because droning to 80 nonblindly requires skill, even zvz. Knowing when to drone is key in every matchup. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
On February 23 2012 18:34 agahamsorr0w wrote: Because droning to 80 nonblindly requires skill, even zvz. Knowing when to drone is key in every matchup. Well Yeah, but that does not mean he isnt right about what he said. This aggressive style requieres other skills than playing defensive macro style. It emphazises more the micro and the multitasking because u have to travel around the whole map to keep infecting and make decisions, while u put on really heavy pressure. I dont see why you should hate on this style. Its no supposed to be All-In, its just aggressive. Just like early Zealot pressure... | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
It's all about the efficiency of your practice games and time. Say you play 10 games with this style, and 10 games with a pure macro style. What will happen? With the aggressive style, you practiced macro, micro, macro while attacking in every single game. You will win some games with it outright, though, practicing macro while attacking nonetheless. With the macro style, you will mainly lose because you didn't make enough stuff early enough. You obviously can't lose because you get outmacroed. So when you lose here, you basically just practiced pure macroing of bases, and dying to too much stuff. When you win, you can even slip somewhat in macro-while-attacking and still win, thinking you did everything right. So what happens? Either you will get overrun, or you might still win because of superior economy but sucking at multitasking, getting you nowhere in the long run. | ||
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stichlasser
69 Posts
1. Yes, probably better players can beat you with this, (Im beating at least hight plat zergs with it, hope they start sending dia soon  ) BUT!2. This build is very simple. I made the experience, that good mechanics help you getting better more than fancy builds or micro like a madman. When I first started using the build, I got supplyblocked, missed tons of injections, attacked to early or to late, ran into 2 baneslings and stuff (check 3.). Now, im getting less supplyblcoked, hit most of my injections and my attack timing seems to be pretty good. 3. Like I stated, overall mechanics > micro. In this build, you do the most basic Zerg micro, whichs means surrounding units (like queens, roaches, lings, in other mu stalkers or helions/marines eg) and avoiding/dodging banes (other mu masshelions, zealos). After i mastered the "dodge the banes" to a certain level, i started to manually attack singles banes with lings while microing my other lings (something I find very very hard for a beginner, the reason y banes are soooo good especially in lower leagues). 4. Scouting: You dont want to run into a bane all in. So you have to scout. After like 10 ZvZ you will most likely have seen every possible opening and you will adapt you build to it. Great feeling if this works out Maybe this build wont bring you to GM, but it helps ALOT with overall gamemechanics, basic micro and ZvZ scouting/bo read. THX TANG! | ||
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orbit2021
United States29 Posts
On February 23 2012 00:43 punci wrote: attacking is much harder, and requires much more practice then defending if we dont include random build order pokers that can happen nonetheless (imagine reactor helion vs proxy marauders, now imagine what if someone tries to do proxy mara vs a banshee rush. jeh), due to defenders advantage and whatnot. that doesnt change the fact that this build is highly one dimensional and basicly relies on your opponent reacting badly to it. just like thor-banshee in tvp or any other gimmicky stuff. attacking is also a short term investment exp with zerg that has to have some kind of return to be worth it. its rather hard to attain the level of july and see something and go "OH WELL I CAN JUST KILL THAT". i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit. can you please point out where tang advertises his guides as "the best ever" ? thanks for this guide tang! im a plat/diamond zerg and *EVEN I* can recognize that damage done is DAMAGE DONE. i have never made more than the initial lings, and won 90% of my zvzs, they almost all get to 3 base long macro game scenario. when you kill 2 queens and some lings, force some banes, and you're droning behind that, you can RETAIN most of your lings, make a spine or two and be SO far ahead in larva its stupid. make 3-4 defensive roaches if you want to be low micro intensively safe. THIS IS A VERY SAFE WAY TO DRONE, KEEP MAP CONTROL, AND LEARN TO TRANSITION IN ZVZ. how is it gimmicky to make YOUR BASIC LOWEST COST UNIT, do as much damage as you want and be ahead economically at the same time? its WAY more gimmicky to rush to banes to damage or even to defend vs this(and you've already taken losses and now you basically have to kill me with your banes or im still ahead) BEST of all it teaches you to have great micro while macroing. sure some zergs out there love to play defensively macro and are great at it and they crush most all inners, but thats not for everyone...let us macro vs terran and protoss and show them the swarm, but lets keep zvz as OURS and explore the more aggressive side of zerg because after all, they have the same limitations as us and the same strengths...if drones are zergs strength, a good zerg should actively seek to destroy drones and that is the ONLY thing i try to do in zvz...i never attack someones army and if i do its distracting while my faster units kill drones | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
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pluu.mooh
Austria142 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 23 2012 19:31 ch4ppi wrote: Well Yeah, but that does not mean he isnt right about what he said. This aggressive style requieres other skills than playing defensive macro style. It emphazises more the micro and the multitasking because u have to travel around the whole map to keep infecting and make decisions, while u put on really heavy pressure. I dont see why you should hate on this style. Its no supposed to be All-In, its just aggressive. Just like early Zealot pressure... Exactly, I think the skill sets complement eachother too. I mean I'm an aggressive player but of course I still play standard/macro occasionally to practice, and similarly the most macro-focused players should also practice more aggressive styles. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 25 2012 21:22 pluu.mooh wrote: This one is good in all matchups ! Heads up :D In theory I suppose it could be used in all matchups, though most protoss/terran will wall-off making that many lings an over-commitment. You can do roach/ling timings in all matchups for sure, but the initial ling pressure it designed for zvz. | ||
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pluu.mooh
Austria142 Posts
On February 26 2012 07:34 TangSC wrote: In theory I suppose it could be used in all matchups, though most protoss/terran will wall-off making that many lings an over-commitment. You can do roach/ling timings in all matchups for sure, but the initial ling pressure it designed for zvz. Actually it works fine if you can get pass that 1 zealot / sentry or you can use he lings to get rid of hellions and attack once he expands or when you get 5 banelings after a quick transition. To be honest due to banelings in zvz it works better against p and t in my opinion (or at least I was most sucessfull in that way). Anyways, thanks. It is really good to punish your opponent if they are greedy and transitions are easily handled. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
On February 27 2012 21:40 Olsson wrote: I don't see how this build will work versus someone that goes 15 hatch into banelings and just plays defensively with one to two spines. You will spend all your larvae on making lings and he will be able to spend his 50/50 lings and drones as he makes banelings. But you can just as well build drones from your injects and he has no way of knowing this. If he goes 15 hatch into banelings he has no zergling speed for a while which makes it hard for him to attack giving you a big macro lead. With an overlord you can spot on his natural if he builds many drones or not. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 27 2012 21:40 Olsson wrote: I don't see how this build will work versus someone that goes 15 hatch into banelings and just plays defensively with one to two spines. You will spend all your larvae on making lings and he will be able to spend his 50/50 lings and drones as he makes banelings. Ofcourse it comes down to micro but it feels like he has the big advantage since he has banelings. The problem with going mass lings is that you can't drone that well behind it compared to banelings or roaches that give you an edge from a normal zergling or two. In the guide you say transition to the next attack, roach ling if you see this but at this point you should be very behind if he droned up. Which makes the next attack all-in. I don't think anyone could get away with making 50/50 ling/drones against this build. It forces baneling players to produce only zerglings, and you will usually need a spine and 2 queens at your expansion as well (assuming the attacking player has strong zergling micro). It's not uncommon at all to actually come out ahead in income after the ling pressure is over. | ||
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