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[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 12

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
February 21 2012 12:54 GMT
#221
I think a lot of posters here are overstating the need for mechanics and micro with this style. I'm in platinum myself, I'm hardly a fantastic player, yet I almost always go for mass ling in ZvZ. Your mechanics only have to be good until the 6 minute mark if it goes well, and how hard is that? As for micro, microing speedlings vs banelings is not easy, but it's hard as hell to use banelings effectively vs lings as well, so even if you're required to micro, you also force your opponent to do the same.. and while you only have to keep building lings, he has to build lings AND morph them into banes at a safe location. If his micro isn't all that great, neither does your have to be, just a move, box most of your lings and move back... the few lings you didn't box will run in and his banelings will blow up on them.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
February 21 2012 16:24 GMT
#222
On February 21 2012 21:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think a lot of posters here are overstating the need for mechanics and micro with this style. I'm in platinum myself, I'm hardly a fantastic player, yet I almost always go for mass ling in ZvZ. Your mechanics only have to be good until the 6 minute mark if it goes well, and how hard is that? As for micro, microing speedlings vs banelings is not easy, but it's hard as hell to use banelings effectively vs lings as well, so even if you're required to micro, you also force your opponent to do the same.. and while you only have to keep building lings, he has to build lings AND morph them into banes at a safe location. If his micro isn't all that great, neither does your have to be, just a move, box most of your lings and move back... the few lings you didn't box will run in and his banelings will blow up on them.

That's a good point. You can also a-move, shift-click one-two lings, then pull back to avoid boxing (I prefer boxing like you mention). I think you're right that people underestimate the amount of micro needed to use banelings effectively, so if you're having trouble keeping up with macro because you're microing your zerglings, you have to remember your opponent's macro may also slip while controlling his banelings.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Celadan
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway471 Posts
February 21 2012 18:09 GMT
#223
im sorry, ive tried this style plenty of times on ladder and i can confirm that it looses to a player that can micro his banes...
he can have half the ling count as long as he has like 4 banes to accompany that.
спеціальна Тактика
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
February 21 2012 19:42 GMT
#224
On February 22 2012 03:09 Celadan wrote:
im sorry, ive tried this style plenty of times on ladder and i can confirm that it looses to a player that can micro his banes...
he can have half the ling count as long as he has like 4 banes to accompany that.


If you poke up with however many lings you have at 5:30 and see a ton of banes, dont make the 16 lings and simply make 8 drones, then decide where you want to go from there (roach/ling all in or more macro play).
The only way your opponent can have banes this fast is either he 14/14 or he 15 hatched and got a bane nest before speed.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
tokicheese
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada739 Posts
February 21 2012 20:09 GMT
#225
Idk what reason people would be slagging on tang for... He posted a useful guide for some players who cares what type of game style it is?
t༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ށ
Archism
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2 Posts
February 21 2012 21:24 GMT
#226
Useful guide! Gives me more variety in my early game ZvZ. Before I saw this I would usually go for a Destiny-ish roach/sling all-in but I found that I would have trouble with mass sling openings that would overwhelm me before I had enough roaches out. I like the constant pressure you're able to put on with this style!

Anyway, haters gonna hate. They probably just lost to this on ladder and needed to qq somewhere...
Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets.
kirdie
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany221 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 00:58:41
February 22 2012 00:47 GMT
#227
Woa thank you very much for this build order! I tried it out two times and won both :-)
I have however only 42 lings at 6:20, can you tell me what I did wrong? I am a low master/high diamond player and I feel like I didn't mismacro or anything.

My zvz replay

P.S.: Lol, just won a ZvP on tal darim with that build. As I normally do a 12 pool I am used to sending my two first overlords out. This time he built canons at my natural however that I only saw after finishing. I killed the pylon however with my mass lings and because of the money he needed for the canons he didn't have a full wallof ^^
cpu
Profile Joined January 2011
102 Posts
February 22 2012 08:03 GMT
#228
I am a Plat player and all I can say is that this guide is extremely useful in many ways.

1) At a lower level learning to execute a build is very important and most builds and games that get into the mid-late game are more about game sense and mcro but if you learn to stick to a BO and keep it tight such as this BO then it will be easier in the future to learn and execute more complex builds.

2) When using this build you will overrun anything but banelings, with that said it is not that bad to learn how to micro lings vs banes. It is something every Zerg and player can benefit from and have extremely better unit control because of being put into situations likes vs banes and learning the mechanics of micro through trial and error.

3) I beleive that for the most part people who have read this pot and have taken the time to write their opinions and comments are people that enjoy playing the game and not necesarily pro gamers but take the game pretty seriously. If that is the case a situation will arise where you will play a BOx in a tournament or be put in a clutch situation in a clan war and having a strat like this out of left field will give you an edge in changing up your game and not being preditcable. For example you are playing a clan war and beat 2 players from the other team both in long macro games and the next player is a zerg in expectation the other team will beleive that you are gonna play a macro game and you can suprise them with this.

All in all Tang is only trying to help out and guides of this level that have been this thoroughly tested are very few and far between in these forums. Stylisticly it may not fit your play style but give the man credit for actually spending the time to put the build together, to test it, to then refine it and then to come on here put a full write up and instructional videos about it for all ofus to learn from.

When did one of all the whiners and complainers in this post do anything even close to as helpful to the community.
Stop flaming, if u don't have something smart or constructive to say then just don't say anything at all and write off the build, stop giving the guys that actually make an effort to try and help us all improve such a hard time when they actually try and give us there little ems. Maybe you don't like the build but maybe someone else will like the idea so know about it so you can scout and counter it easily. But for heavens sake don't make a guy like Tang, who really tries hard, stop because some people have overwhelming opinions.

Guys like Tang are an asset to this community we should really learn to treat these people a little better or we will have no one left who wants to help us out.
chayde
Profile Joined October 2010
United States13 Posts
February 22 2012 13:11 GMT
#229
On February 22 2012 17:03 cpu wrote:
When did one of all the whiners and complainers in this post do anything even close to as helpful to the community.
Stop flaming, if u don't have something smart or constructive to say then just don't say anything at all and write off the build, stop giving the guys that actually make an effort to try and help us all improve such a hard time when they actually try and give us there little ems. Maybe you don't like the build but maybe someone else will like the idea so know about it so you can scout and counter it easily. But for heavens sake don't make a guy like Tang, who really tries hard, stop because some people have overwhelming opinions.

Guys like Tang are an asset to this community we should really learn to treat these people a little better or we will have no one left who wants to help us out.


Could not agree more with this statement. Except that last line, there will always be the elitists who will come here because they think they're something hot and will give the super good advise of "macro better" no matter what the question is.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sarcasm Meter should be real high after reading that
cpu
Profile Joined January 2011
102 Posts
February 22 2012 14:26 GMT
#230
Ok so we will not have anyone creative with interesting ideas left trying to help us out
chrotti
Profile Joined February 2012
5 Posts
February 22 2012 15:20 GMT
#231
Wow I absolutely love this BO! I love it so much that I actually took the effort to register and write my very first post here on the forums ;-)

Beeing rather hopeless in the ZvZ matchup lately I was looking for some good advise to improve my play and then I stumbled upon this beauty here

From my last 8 ZvZ I won 7 with this strategy. In the process, I've beaten...

Gready Expansions
OK, not much of a challenge

Offensive Roaches
6+ very early Roaches always made me nervous, not with this BO anymore!

Defensive Roaches
You know, if they block their ramp with 3-5 early roaches, trying to tech safely behind it. A bit scary at first, but I learned that enough lings will eventually overwhelm those roaches, even on the narrow ramp to the main. A trick I learned was that I wouldn't show all my lings to him, so my opponent would still feel quite save behind those roaches (making him drone instead of making more roaches)

Mass lings off one base
They see me getting a relativly early expansion and probably think "Fool! I shall crush you with my 6, 10, 20 lings!". Well, not quite! I'd like to introduce you to my 6, 12, 24, 40 lings...

Banelings
I gotta fully agree with many posters above me, contrary to popular believe banelings vs speedlings is not an auto-win! Well microed speedlings do really well against banlings, as long as you split off small groups and send them baneling hunting. Ofc it's nothing for the faint hearted, but no risk no fun


4 of my games were won with pure lings, in 2 games I had to transition to roaches, 1 game turned into a 3 base macro game till i was able to crush him with Muta/Roach/ling

And the one game I lost was to ... a 6-pool ;-) I have to admit I slightly panicked, and once my 6 lings were out I forgot to attack with my drones as well. I will try to improve that next time.

So thank you Tang for that great guide, it's much appreciated.
More is lost by indecision than by wrong decision
punci
Profile Joined January 2012
Hungary2 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 15:47:52
February 22 2012 15:43 GMT
#232
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.

attacking is much harder, and requires much more practice then defending if we dont include random build order pokers that can happen nonetheless (imagine reactor helion vs proxy marauders, now imagine what if someone tries to do proxy mara vs a banshee rush. jeh), due to defenders advantage and whatnot.
that doesnt change the fact that this build is highly one dimensional and basicly relies on your opponent reacting badly to it. just like thor-banshee in tvp or any other gimmicky stuff.
attacking is also a short term investment exp with zerg that has to have some kind of return to be worth it. its rather hard to attain the level of july and see something and go "OH WELL I CAN JUST KILL THAT".

i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time

just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit.
llKenZyll
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States853 Posts
February 22 2012 15:49 GMT
#233
On February 20 2012 04:23 Odal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 05:28 TangSC wrote:
On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:
On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:
On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:
On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:
On February 19 2012 01:20 RampancyTW wrote:
Nobody is saying zerg can only play macro. But there's a big difference between solid, aggressive play and most of the builds you've posted. My issue with most of these guides is that they're not reactive builds designed to exploit scouted weaknesses (which is where aggressive play kicks in). They essentially amount to pre-determined cheeses with a stunted economy, which is where you get most of your complaints from. You'll get a ton of BO-win ladder points with builds like these if opponents don't scout and respond correctly, or are playing too greedy, but unless you inflict significant damage there is zero benefit to doing a build like this. "Map control" is entirely arbitrary unless you're specifically controlling for/against THINGS.

I would love and fully support a guide from you about, for example, establishing a quick third with a decent economy and then turning on a goddamn Zerg killswitch of fury when you spot weaknesses in your opponents' defenses. That would be an AWESOME, comprehensive guide for aggressive Zerg play, and most importantly it would establish all of the basic economic and tech pieces that a Zerg would need to transition afterwards. THAT is solid play. Guides like these are gimmicky. They may be good gimmicks, bad gimmicks, whatever-- the important thing is that they're gimmicks.

The words "gimmick, allin, cheese" etc are, in my opinion, useless words. Everyone has a different opinion of what the definitions are. The point is, it's not always what which style you choose, it's about doing the style perfectly. There's a vast skill gap between a master using the builds I've outlined and a silver player using them. I could just as easily argue that my builds are "solid" because they put your opponent on the back foot while you drone/respond to the information your attack gives you, and that playing defensive "macro" style with roaches is not particularly helpful because you're not multitasking and your units are too slow to scout.

In short, I really don't think there should be so many unwritten rules about which strategy is correct to employ or any negative associations with builds that deviate from what some people have come to accept as "standard".
I don't frown upon cheese or all-ins in regards to them being cheese or all-ins. I dislike your builds because they stunt so much tech and economy for army early on, which FORCES you to do significant damage with them to even have a chance of winning.

"Solid" styles have a pretty universally accepted definition: Builds/styles that will work even if your opponent knows they are coming, because their effectiveness is determined almost entirely by the execution of the user relative to the execution of the opponent.

Your builds sacrifice the tools needed to enter the midgame in a good position if you don't do enormous damage. THAT does not come down to arbitrary labeling. That does not come down to anything other than the fact that you blindly cut economy and tech in favor of a big fat army that may or may not do damage. Tech will ALWAYS help you. Economy will ALWAYS help you. A big army now, if it sacrifices the other two, does not help you at ALL if you can't do heavy damage with it.

The issue is NOT that you don't play a macro style. The issue is that you play a GIMMICKY style (that you do not acknowledge as gimmicky), as opposed to a solid aggressive style.

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

I'm just making a point. Also Kenzy, I would really prefer you kept those types of remarks to yourself, judging from the comments from your reddit account (and the fact that you were banned twice), I really don't think you have anything constructive to contribute: http://www.reddit.com/user/llKENZYll



...Did you actually go on reddit and look up this guy's account to find a way to insult him? You are insane.

Yep, he always plays that card.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
February 22 2012 16:18 GMT
#234
On February 23 2012 00:43 punci wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.


i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time

just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit.


Here are some replays from yesterday and the day before:

http://drop.sc/117945 Ling vs Ling bane on Shakuras Plateau
http://drop.sc/117946
http://drop.sc/117944
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
phrenzy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom478 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 16:25:32
February 22 2012 16:24 GMT
#235
Thanks tang,

I gotta say i won a few games with this BO but im losing more ZvZ's with this style. I think its both good to have a solid macro style and an all-out aggressive play.

So thanks for the replays, i will happily watch... and learn.
relaps3
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4 Posts
February 22 2012 17:06 GMT
#236
I like this strat a good amount also. I used to use that stephano 11 pool bling ling 1 base thang. It worked well but when the push failed against someone who was on 2 bases I was kinda screwed.. But anyways, I really like this build a lot, I really like that you can actually transition out at some point since you get a 2nd base fast.

One thing I am scared of is running into someone else whos doing the same build..
hi.
llKenZyll
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States853 Posts
February 22 2012 18:47 GMT
#237
On February 23 2012 01:24 phrenzy wrote:

So thanks for the replays, i will happily watch... and learn.

ye its good to learn what NOT to do.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/
ch4ppi
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany802 Posts
February 22 2012 19:16 GMT
#238
Thank you Tang for that Guide. It has greatly improved my ZvZ.

The hard part about the build is in the first place to read the situation well enough, to decide if you can go past the 42 speedlings with more speedlings or transition.

In my first games I lost terribly, because I refused to transition and I was headbutting into banelings, which is as u can imagine quiet ineffective. Since I understood how this is played I really really won alot. Sadly I'm just winning and havent met enough people that try to be defensive with baneling/Queen/Spine. I think there is the difficult part to properly transition into roaches.
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
February 22 2012 19:36 GMT
#239
On February 23 2012 04:16 ch4ppi wrote:
Thank you Tang for that Guide. It has greatly improved my ZvZ.

The hard part about the build is in the first place to read the situation well enough, to decide if you can go past the 42 speedlings with more speedlings or transition.

In my first games I lost terribly, because I refused to transition and I was headbutting into banelings, which is as u can imagine quiet ineffective. Since I understood how this is played I really really won alot. Sadly I'm just winning and havent met enough people that try to be defensive with baneling/Queen/Spine. I think there is the difficult part to properly transition into roaches.


If you're agressive all game, your opponent won't really attack you straight away, so you have a window to drone.
Put back in gas, make 10-12 drones, build warren after that, and make ~8 roaches when warren finishes > rally lings or drone behind.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
February 22 2012 22:28 GMT
#240
another way to split lings effectively is to move them near the opponents bane and attack move back, the front lings will attack while the rest moves back. the later you move back, the more lings attack. Problem here: Lag will lose you lotso lings
21 is half the truth
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