[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 12
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 21 2012 21:54 Tobberoth wrote: I think a lot of posters here are overstating the need for mechanics and micro with this style. I'm in platinum myself, I'm hardly a fantastic player, yet I almost always go for mass ling in ZvZ. Your mechanics only have to be good until the 6 minute mark if it goes well, and how hard is that? As for micro, microing speedlings vs banelings is not easy, but it's hard as hell to use banelings effectively vs lings as well, so even if you're required to micro, you also force your opponent to do the same.. and while you only have to keep building lings, he has to build lings AND morph them into banes at a safe location. If his micro isn't all that great, neither does your have to be, just a move, box most of your lings and move back... the few lings you didn't box will run in and his banelings will blow up on them. That's a good point. You can also a-move, shift-click one-two lings, then pull back to avoid boxing (I prefer boxing like you mention). I think you're right that people underestimate the amount of micro needed to use banelings effectively, so if you're having trouble keeping up with macro because you're microing your zerglings, you have to remember your opponent's macro may also slip while controlling his banelings. | ||
Celadan
Norway471 Posts
he can have half the ling count as long as he has like 4 banes to accompany that. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 22 2012 03:09 Celadan wrote: im sorry, ive tried this style plenty of times on ladder and i can confirm that it looses to a player that can micro his banes... he can have half the ling count as long as he has like 4 banes to accompany that. If you poke up with however many lings you have at 5:30 and see a ton of banes, dont make the 16 lings and simply make 8 drones, then decide where you want to go from there (roach/ling all in or more macro play). The only way your opponent can have banes this fast is either he 14/14 or he 15 hatched and got a bane nest before speed. | ||
tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
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Archism
United States2 Posts
Anyway, haters gonna hate. They probably just lost to this on ladder and needed to qq somewhere... | ||
kirdie
Germany221 Posts
I have however only 42 lings at 6:20, can you tell me what I did wrong? I am a low master/high diamond player and I feel like I didn't mismacro or anything. My zvz replay P.S.: Lol, just won a ZvP on tal darim with that build. As I normally do a 12 pool I am used to sending my two first overlords out. This time he built canons at my natural however that I only saw after finishing. I killed the pylon however with my mass lings and because of the money he needed for the canons he didn't have a full wallof ^^ | ||
cpu
102 Posts
1) At a lower level learning to execute a build is very important and most builds and games that get into the mid-late game are more about game sense and mcro but if you learn to stick to a BO and keep it tight such as this BO then it will be easier in the future to learn and execute more complex builds. 2) When using this build you will overrun anything but banelings, with that said it is not that bad to learn how to micro lings vs banes. It is something every Zerg and player can benefit from and have extremely better unit control because of being put into situations likes vs banes and learning the mechanics of micro through trial and error. 3) I beleive that for the most part people who have read this pot and have taken the time to write their opinions and comments are people that enjoy playing the game and not necesarily pro gamers but take the game pretty seriously. If that is the case a situation will arise where you will play a BOx in a tournament or be put in a clutch situation in a clan war and having a strat like this out of left field will give you an edge in changing up your game and not being preditcable. For example you are playing a clan war and beat 2 players from the other team both in long macro games and the next player is a zerg in expectation the other team will beleive that you are gonna play a macro game and you can suprise them with this. All in all Tang is only trying to help out and guides of this level that have been this thoroughly tested are very few and far between in these forums. Stylisticly it may not fit your play style but give the man credit for actually spending the time to put the build together, to test it, to then refine it and then to come on here put a full write up and instructional videos about it for all ofus to learn from. When did one of all the whiners and complainers in this post do anything even close to as helpful to the community. Stop flaming, if u don't have something smart or constructive to say then just don't say anything at all and write off the build, stop giving the guys that actually make an effort to try and help us all improve such a hard time when they actually try and give us there little ems. Maybe you don't like the build but maybe someone else will like the idea so know about it so you can scout and counter it easily. But for heavens sake don't make a guy like Tang, who really tries hard, stop because some people have overwhelming opinions. Guys like Tang are an asset to this community we should really learn to treat these people a little better or we will have no one left who wants to help us out. | ||
chayde
United States13 Posts
On February 22 2012 17:03 cpu wrote: When did one of all the whiners and complainers in this post do anything even close to as helpful to the community. Stop flaming, if u don't have something smart or constructive to say then just don't say anything at all and write off the build, stop giving the guys that actually make an effort to try and help us all improve such a hard time when they actually try and give us there little ems. Maybe you don't like the build but maybe someone else will like the idea so know about it so you can scout and counter it easily. But for heavens sake don't make a guy like Tang, who really tries hard, stop because some people have overwhelming opinions. Guys like Tang are an asset to this community we should really learn to treat these people a little better or we will have no one left who wants to help us out. Could not agree more with this statement. Except that last line, there will always be the elitists who will come here because they think they're something hot and will give the super good advise of "macro better" no matter what the question is. + Show Spoiler + Sarcasm Meter should be real high after reading that | ||
cpu
102 Posts
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chrotti
5 Posts
Beeing rather hopeless in the ZvZ matchup lately I was looking for some good advise to improve my play and then I stumbled upon this beauty here From my last 8 ZvZ I won 7 with this strategy. In the process, I've beaten... Gready Expansions OK, not much of a challenge Offensive Roaches 6+ very early Roaches always made me nervous, not with this BO anymore! Defensive Roaches You know, if they block their ramp with 3-5 early roaches, trying to tech safely behind it. A bit scary at first, but I learned that enough lings will eventually overwhelm those roaches, even on the narrow ramp to the main. A trick I learned was that I wouldn't show all my lings to him, so my opponent would still feel quite save behind those roaches (making him drone instead of making more roaches) Mass lings off one base They see me getting a relativly early expansion and probably think "Fool! I shall crush you with my 6, 10, 20 lings!". Well, not quite! I'd like to introduce you to my 6, 12, 24, 40 lings... Banelings I gotta fully agree with many posters above me, contrary to popular believe banelings vs speedlings is not an auto-win! Well microed speedlings do really well against banlings, as long as you split off small groups and send them baneling hunting. Ofc it's nothing for the faint hearted, but no risk no fun 4 of my games were won with pure lings, in 2 games I had to transition to roaches, 1 game turned into a 3 base macro game till i was able to crush him with Muta/Roach/ling And the one game I lost was to ... a 6-pool ;-) I have to admit I slightly panicked, and once my 6 lings were out I forgot to attack with my drones as well. I will try to improve that next time. So thank you Tang for that great guide, it's much appreciated. | ||
punci
Hungary2 Posts
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote: This actually seems like a good place to ask this: Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg. And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way. attacking is much harder, and requires much more practice then defending if we dont include random build order pokers that can happen nonetheless (imagine reactor helion vs proxy marauders, now imagine what if someone tries to do proxy mara vs a banshee rush. jeh), due to defenders advantage and whatnot. that doesnt change the fact that this build is highly one dimensional and basicly relies on your opponent reacting badly to it. just like thor-banshee in tvp or any other gimmicky stuff. attacking is also a short term investment exp with zerg that has to have some kind of return to be worth it. its rather hard to attain the level of july and see something and go "OH WELL I CAN JUST KILL THAT". i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit. | ||
llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On February 20 2012 04:23 Odal wrote: ...Did you actually go on reddit and look up this guy's account to find a way to insult him? You are insane. Yep, he always plays that card. | ||
TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 23 2012 00:43 punci wrote: i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit. Here are some replays from yesterday and the day before: http://drop.sc/117945 Ling vs Ling bane on Shakuras Plateau http://drop.sc/117946 http://drop.sc/117944 | ||
phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
I gotta say i won a few games with this BO but im losing more ZvZ's with this style. I think its both good to have a solid macro style and an all-out aggressive play. So thanks for the replays, i will happily watch... and learn. | ||
relaps3
United States4 Posts
One thing I am scared of is running into someone else whos doing the same build.. | ||
llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On February 23 2012 01:24 phrenzy wrote: So thanks for the replays, i will happily watch... and learn. ye its good to learn what NOT to do. | ||
ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
The hard part about the build is in the first place to read the situation well enough, to decide if you can go past the 42 speedlings with more speedlings or transition. In my first games I lost terribly, because I refused to transition and I was headbutting into banelings, which is as u can imagine quiet ineffective. Since I understood how this is played I really really won alot. Sadly I'm just winning and havent met enough people that try to be defensive with baneling/Queen/Spine. I think there is the difficult part to properly transition into roaches. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 23 2012 04:16 ch4ppi wrote: Thank you Tang for that Guide. It has greatly improved my ZvZ. The hard part about the build is in the first place to read the situation well enough, to decide if you can go past the 42 speedlings with more speedlings or transition. In my first games I lost terribly, because I refused to transition and I was headbutting into banelings, which is as u can imagine quiet ineffective. Since I understood how this is played I really really won alot. Sadly I'm just winning and havent met enough people that try to be defensive with baneling/Queen/Spine. I think there is the difficult part to properly transition into roaches. If you're agressive all game, your opponent won't really attack you straight away, so you have a window to drone. Put back in gas, make 10-12 drones, build warren after that, and make ~8 roaches when warren finishes > rally lings or drone behind. | ||
Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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