EPThe had so many cannons everywhere. i knew if I tried to attach his front I would die to his Collossus void ray count. (deathball)
My question is what do you do against a turtling protoss ?
Replay example :http://drop.sc/107158
Zerg:What do you do against a Turtling Protoss?
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
jojoleb
Lebanon180 Posts
he had so many cannons everywhere. i knew if I tried to attach his front I would die to his Collossus void ray count. (deathball) My question is what do you do against a turtling protoss ? Replay example :http://drop.sc/107158 | ||
|
Farone
Netherlands1219 Posts
| ||
|
Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
If he turtles, you can expand a lot aswell... So you can get the eco to get this | ||
|
Candadar
2049 Posts
Nonetheless, expand everywhere. Get a shit ton of Corrupters. I mean, just a ridiculous amount and continue to get tech in basically everything. Get upgrades as well. Try to contain him on 3 bases, max. 2 would be ideal, but if he gets to 3, make sure to keep him there by massive denying, burrowed lings, etc. When he pushes out with his deathball, you should have the advantage with the ridiculous amount of money you should have banked. Use your huge corrupter ball to take out as many Colossi as possible, and then his Void Rays. You can refresh your army faster than his. If he starts massing gateway units, get what you need. Start getting Brood Lords even. If he sticks with Colli/Void Rays, I say get Brood Lords for the "mass cannons" and even more Corrupters to protect them. The thing to note is to save Larvae and save money once maxed and keep expanding. Get a lot of gas, and keep upgrading and teching. Your army may lose to his straight up, even like 50 Corrupters, but that's not the point. You can refresh faster than him and you can AFFORD to refresh faster. After you drop his army when he moves out, he may still have enough to keep trucking. Refresh with what you need and keep ramming into his asshole. He'll be forced to try and expand to continue to fund his gas heavy army, and you can keep denying him. The point of killing someone who is turtling is not to kill his base or break him. You need to starve him. | ||
|
ButterMeUp
England76 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:20 Farone wrote: if he uses collo VR, then just bank a lot of minerals, make allot of corrupters (30-40), kill VRs+collosi, then build whatever units counter his remaining army Thats really really bad advice, 80 supply of corruptors is a terrible, terrible idea. To beat the turtle deathbal, well, there is no simple answer. There a sceveral ways of beating it, these can include: 1. Never let him get one. During the midgame, trade armys with him. Do multiprong attacks including drops or nydus to keep his army small. If you can trade armys, its looking good, as you can remax quicker than he can. 2. Drops and nydus play work really well for sniping tech or out of posistion units. 3. Midgame mutas can be devastating. You can pick of key tech, probes, pylons etc. But we warned, you are gonna want to get a huge muta ball with good upgrades. DO NOT engage the deathball with mutas, use them to base race and you will win majority of the time. 4. Broodlord infestor is the ultimate goal of ZvP when p turtles alot. This combo is basically the counter to the deathball but it has to be micro'd properly, also dont rush there, or you will die to midgame pushes. GL  | ||
|
Candadar
2049 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:28 ButterMeUp wrote: Thats really really bad advice, 80 supply of corruptors is a terrible, terrible idea. To beat the turtle deathbal, well, there is no simple answer. There a sceveral ways of beating it, these can include: 1. Never let him get one. During the midgame, trade armys with him. Do multiprong attacks including drops or nydus to keep his army small. If you can trade armys, its looking good, as you can remax quicker than he can. 2. Drops and nydus play work really well for sniping tech or out of posistion units. 3. Midgame mutas can be devastating. You can pick of key tech, probes, pylons etc. But we warned, you are gonna want to get a huge muta ball with good upgrades. DO NOT engage the deathball with mutas, use them to base race and you will win majority of the time. 4. Broodlord infestor is the ultimate goal of ZvP when p turtles alot. This combo is basically the counter to the deathball but it has to be micro'd properly, also dont rush there, or you will die to midgame pushes. GL Against the normal deathball, yeah, that's great. But when we're talking about the VR/Colli only deathball, it isn't good enough. | ||
|
Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:29 Candadar wrote: Against the normal deathball, yeah, that's great. But when we're talking about the VR/Colli only deathball, it isn't good enough. Uhm. What? Broodlord infestor will almost always be a better composition than any one that has 80 or more supply in corruptors. | ||
|
BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
| ||
|
SelectStaR
United Kingdom129 Posts
| ||
|
orionboss
United States45 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66838 it is game 1 | ||
|
Candadar
2049 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:36 Venomsflame wrote: Uhm. What? Broodlord infestor will almost always be a better composition than any one that has 80 or more supply in corruptors. Since when does BL/Infestor cost efficiently counter mass VR/colli? | ||
|
Berailfor
441 Posts
On February 09 2012 01:31 Candadar wrote: Since when does BL/Infestor cost efficiently counter mass VR/colli? Since never lol. Your correct, don't morph broods until after you have killed off all/most of the voids. The infestor buff was the time when void ray colossi became outdated. Because infestor corruptor just owns it too hard. And Zerg also have learned not to build hydras lol | ||
|
FLiP491
United States124 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:28 ButterMeUp wrote: Thats really really bad advice, 80 supply of corruptors is a terrible, terrible idea. Actually this is not terrible advice. Ok 30-40 is way too many. But a good way to kill a vr/col based deathball is to overmake corruptors and then sac and remax. The idea is if he turtles you have a huge eco lead, and you need to make that matter when both hit 200 food. If your roach hydra or bl infestor army gets crushed it's gg, you can't remax in time to kill an army with a stockpile of cols I'm assuming this is in the lower leagues and this guy doesn't have gm level micro/control. If he does, then bl corrupter infestor can trade well enough, or drop blings, or lots of other things.. | ||
|
Arisen
United States2382 Posts
| ||
|
Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
also the protoss can get a maximum of 3 bases, (some maps 2) if you go mutalisk and he tries to make a deathball of voidray colossi. Sure he could make 20 cannons in each base, but then he will have no army the problem is what to do if the protoss techs to storm and slowly continues to expand and playing passively... I have no solution to that myself  | ||
|
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
(1) fast third -> roach -> muta -> mass expand -> broodlord infestor; and (2) fast third -> roach -> roach timing attack as P takes third. For #2, P will probably try to turtle behind chokes with forcefields, so you will want to get OL drops or tunneling claws. If P does get a void+colossus deathball, corruptors are a good response. If P gets a deathball with storm, archons, mothership, void rays and carriers, Z is basically screwed, but corruptors are still the best choice. You'll have to split micro and storm dodge the heck out of your corruptors to do much damage tho. Multipronged roach drops are good in late game as well. | ||
|
Canuckelhead
Canada29 Posts
2. I like that you use your 'lings to try to knock down rocks. But you also need to use them to scout the map and look for pylons and probes. 3. You see that P has taken gas at his expo. This should tell you some sort of tech play is coming. 4. Good to scout that Stargate play, a little bit earlier would have helped a lot. 5. You have 22 'lings not doing anything. Knock down the rocks to your pocket expo and to his pocket third. He's going to want it eventually, open the path up for yourself to counter/deny it. You eventually do this but it's too late by then. If you're going to make units, do something with them. If they're sitting in your base, they'd be better off being drones. 6. P is taking a third. EXPAND!!!!! Your opponent is giving you the map. Use it. Expand everywhere. Your pocket expo, the 3 o'clock main and natural. Take them. Spread creep and bank larvae. Tech to hive. Your opponent is going to sit and macro on his 3-base to get a deathball. 7. I don't really like the Muta tech choice here, unless you're going to mass them. Your opponent already has two stargates. You don't know if he has Blink/Templar archives and then you lose a bunch of Mutas to do a little damage to his main. 6. You're still making Corruptors and Roaches. Commit to a unit composition. Either go mass Muta (30+) or a more traditional Roach/Corruptor/Infestor (by the way, you still have no Infestation pit at 15 minutes against a turtling P) 7. You haven't taken the gas at your third or fourth. This is over. 8. Your upgrades are slow as well. You ivnested in double evo, pump those upgrades! 9. Your Muta control needs a lot of work. Your army just doesn't look very strong, does it? The mix and match, grab bag approach vs. his deathball? 10 You have two hatcheries not in your Hatch hotkeys and your larvae injects need a lot of work. I'm not going to watch the rest because the game is essentially over. To beat a deathball Protoss, you need one of two things. 1) a giant ball of Mutas and a map that allows you to have a million expos to force a base race, with a Spine wall to back it up. OR 2) a Zerg deathball of Infestor/Broodlord. Protoss literally applies 0 pressure to you. He goes fast double Stargate, delaying his tech and hurting his econ. P is basically saying to you, I'm not scared of Broodlords and Infestors, here, take the map. Your response needs to be, "have you seen 20+ Broodlords before? Here, take a look..." Instead you waivered on what units you wanted, lost a tonne of stuff for free and never really maxed on your end tier units. Against that 3 base turtle, take the map, drone hard and tech hard. | ||
|
Kasha_Not_Kesha
United States71 Posts
| ||
|
Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:36 Venomsflame wrote: Uhm. What? Broodlord infestor will almost always be a better composition than any one that has 80 or more supply in corruptors. Sadly not againt vr/colli Collussus rip infestors trying to get close and spread voidrays decimate everything. It is just incredibly frustrating. | ||
|
HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
Edit: Also, as others pointed out, if he's going VR/Colo, well just make a ****load of corruptors with a little support and you should be fine... I hate going VR/Colo, it's so easy to hard-counter :/ | ||
|
DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
| ||
|
AFSpeeDy
126 Posts
1) Max out on Infestor BL and chrush his army 2) Get a ton of mutas and go basetrade^^ just my two cents.. | ||
|
anxiouspanda
United States56 Posts
The best way i have found to deal with the beast that is a 3 base protoss is to first off take a ton, and I mean a ton, of hatcheries. Be sure to take all your expansions first of course but the key here is going to be to remax at least once. I know that as a zergs we sometimes hit 200/200 with an "inappropriate" unit composition. Once you hit your "plethera" of bases you have 2 options to be able to hit your perfect army composition. You can either drop the few units that you do not want, to at least get some harass out of them, or you need to prepare for an engagement. The key to the engagement is to meet the protoss as soon as he moves out to give yourself ample time to remax. ^^BEFORE DOING THIS YOU NEED NEED NEED!!!!! TO HAVE A TON OF LARVA. now that you've attacked (and most likely gotten demolished) you need to hit your remax with the proper units. (nothing like a 200/200 army scout eh?) Even if you do have the proper army when you hit 200/200, waiting for your opponent and hitting him just outside his base is still the best option from my experience. I know in the early days of SC2 it was said to attack "as soon as you hit 200/200" (i know this is the way i learned) but i do believe that this is the new way for zerg to play especially since the 200/200 army of protoss is just extremely powerful. TL;DR - 1) hit the protoss just outside of their base to ensure you can remax. 2) be sure to have a TON of extra larva for this remax with the "proper" army - attacking like this not only allows you to remax but while you're at 200/200 you can add spines and finish upgrades before that remax creating that seemingly impossible to break zerg base. | ||
|
Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
the other approach is to try going for some sort of drop play and continuously trade your higher econ for his lower. | ||
|
HighLach
United States132 Posts
| ||
|
Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On February 09 2012 04:11 kcdc wrote: In my opinion, the best strategies against Toss are: (1) fast third -> roach -> muta -> mass expand -> broodlord infestor; and (2) fast third -> roach -> roach timing attack as P takes third. For #2, P will probably try to turtle behind chokes with forcefields, so you will want to get OL drops or tunneling claws. If P does get a void+colossus deathball, corruptors are a good response. If P gets a deathball with storm, archons, mothership, void rays and carriers, Z is basically screwed, but corruptors are still the best choice. You'll have to split micro and storm dodge the heck out of your corruptors to do much damage tho. Multipronged roach drops are good in late game as well. This has probably just helped me out immensely. Thank you. | ||
|
Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
P has a relatively safe and easy 3rd on this map, but only if you only ever try to attack him via the natural and the rocks. If you clear the rocks, then threaten his 3rd from the far side and drop a bunch of units in his main, he has to spread his army out very far in order to deal with you. Also there's no need to immediately hide your first overlord against protoss. Send it to the ramp to see if he went gateway first or forge first, before hiding it. You have a lot of time before a stalker can kill it. If you see he went forge first, immediately take drones out of gas, or if it's already too late for that, cancel speed and spend those minerals on drones, queens, or hatcheries. In general you need to be a bit ballsier with your expansions and your droning. You can get away with more than you think you can. When fighting against void ray colossus, you need to fungal the void rays. That's the most important thing for infestors to be doing. The other thing is that you really want to get double air upgrades from two spires. Whether you are going muta or broodlord/corruptor, you almost always want double upgrades especially if they are going air with their death ball. | ||
|
Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On February 09 2012 05:12 ArkanTos wrote: this, as well as what kcdc said (timing attack against the third) maxed out full tech protoss is nearly impossible to beat straight up. If you can at least delay his third you can tech to BL/infestor and hit before he has a mothership/archons. Then you can beat him provided you have good infestor control. If he stabilizes with a third you're still on lair tech, you're screwed.You can do two things: 1) Max out on Infestor BL and chrush his army 2) Get a ton of mutas and go basetrade^^ just my two cents.. @kcdc: have you ever seen a successful transition from muta to BL/infestor?I understand the concept, but I've never actually seen a high level game where it occurs. If you have any links or reps I'd greatly appreciate a look. | ||
|
anxiouspanda
United States56 Posts
On February 09 2012 09:43 Lobotomist wrote: this, as well as what kcdc said (timing attack against the third) maxed out full tech protoss is nearly impossible to beat straight up. If you can at least delay his third you can tech to BL/infestor and hit before he has a mothership/archons. Then you can beat him provided you have good infestor control. If he stabilizes with a third you're still on lair tech, you're screwed. @kcdc: have you ever seen a successful transition from muta to BL/infestor?I understand the concept, but I've never actually seen a high level game where it occurs. If you have any links or reps I'd greatly appreciate a look. I've actually seen vibe do this a lot on shattered. He continually adds spines as he masses up his mutas and eventually makes a bl muta spine push across the map. Its disgustingly affective and I can't see any way to beat it as a protoss. | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
I feel like ultras + corruptors+ queens would be the way to go versus that army composition. Colossi splash nbd on ultras, VR vs corruptor maybe a bit more of a coinflip, but it'll give your ultras time to wreck everything. Plus, transfuse, and queens are not terrible against VR's. After that, morph corruptor into BL and gg. | ||
|
Honcepoi
Germany29 Posts
If a toss is on three base you will be usually on 4-5 base. On 3 base a toss has big problems to defend drop play. I tend to attack with roaches at one end of his base (even if there are cannons) and by the time the toss moves his army drop speedlings in his main. Repeat until victory. For me that tactic works great. The key point is that the zerg army is much more mobile. You can retreat burrow... and it is hard for a toss to punish drop play. | ||
|
nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
On February 08 2012 23:16 jojoleb wrote: So I played against a higher league player today and he was turtulling almost all game. except for taking out my 5th... he had so many cannons everywhere. i knew if I tried to attach his front I would die to his Collossus void ray count. (deathball) My question is what do you do against a turtling protoss ? Replay example :http://drop.sc/107158 A higher league...thats so vague. For all I know you're bronze and the higher league was silver which I would just say make about 50-60 drones on three base and then just make roach/hydra and kill him and his macro wont be good enough to save him. Anyways...I Like to drop harrass or nydus. I usually use drop harass for protoss and nydus for turtling terrans(since they usually have turrets everywhere.) do like 2-3 overlord drops in 2 different places and then attack the front a little bit. It'll either make him wayy out of position with him "a moving" to the first drop or make him split up and unless he splits nicely you might be able to pick off some of the more expensive units as well as getting some probe kills or pylons. Or you can always go muta so their deathball of vr+collosus isnt so nice since they prolly wont have storm and vrs arents that great vs muta. expand a ton use minerals on spines and tech to BL+corrupter+Infestor army. So when he does finally move out, he'll need a mothership basically or you should win since colossus is kind of a waste in that situation besides killing broodlings. Or stay muta and make a shitton of lings and about 3 nydus' so when he finally moves out your spines slow him down and you have many bases when nydus like 3 places or all at the same place that way your lings can swarm his base via nydus and you can make hatcheries in a lot of places since nydus' r good at playing come and try to catch me. | ||
|
jojoleb
Lebanon180 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:21 HighLach wrote: First off, give us a replay of the game so we can actually seen what happens. As for a turtling toss, just expand a lot. If hes not moving out you can just take more bases than him. With a good read, you can get a good idea of when he is going to attack. Take advantage and drone while you can. But please post a replay. Also, i think that mutas are a very good option against a play going colossus-voidray. Voidrays arent very good against mutas, and obviously colossus cant hit them. With the voidray production, he wont have as many stalkers. If he has two stargates, he could add in phoenix which could be a problem. GoodlucK! I posted a replay (as an example) in the OP ! please check the OP again. guys thx for the advice. please state your Rank if its possible also. thx | ||
|
Connor987
United Kingdom103 Posts
| ||
|
jojoleb
Lebanon180 Posts
On February 09 2012 05:12 ArkanTos wrote: You can do two things: 1) Max out on Infestor BL and chrush his army 2) Get a ton of mutas and go basetrade^^ just my two cents.. But if i wait for infestor/BL and he hits a timing where i dont have much army(since i'm saving supply to hit BL infestor) i can die right then and there !! | ||
|
NostalgiaTag
Canada508 Posts
Edit: if the drop fails thats fine it really isent a huge investment and gives you drop tech to harras with after, when you see them push out, drop a overlord or 2 with some kings and target tech structures. Fun fun! Edit cont: even more fun is to use the drop tech to carry a queen around to drop creep anywhere on the map. Use the overlord to puke creep and drop the queen out and use creep tumor. hehehehehe! Creep filled map, expos all creeped up! its quite funny. | ||
|
Wardie
4 Posts
The meta game for ZvP is so much different then it was a year ago. Zergs end game right now is so tough to beat, the money mix of Dev, Cor, Inf if managed right is very tough to beat, and you can adjust the mix to deal with ANYTHING toss does. the issue is really getting to the end game, because the protoss have some many ways to punish you though that time. But at the end, there is no doubt that if zerg is allowed to get it's money mix (and allowed to really get that much gas to pull it off) they are going to mostly win. The issue is really staying alive to get there. Protoss has a lot of options for heavy pressure to do that. The real question is what are the best ways to stay alive and slow down protoss to get to that money mix. I have been working on the solution for some time. It really does seams Zerg needs to be more flexible with our options. We need to stay a base ahead, or more. We need to have 55 drones and more focued on just gas. We need to be able to get to muta without Dying, and having options that allow us to stop the 4 gate (easy now) and 6 gates (not as easy right now. How can you keep the protoss back enough to get to that money mix. I still think zergs are working on the best answer there, and once we have one, Toss will have a new pressure. But if a Protoss is going to camp, you need to get gas, and get a gas heavy army. | ||
| ||
