EPTreplay: http://drop.sc/103099
Zerg response to fast blink stalkers?
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SpankySmith
18 Posts
replay: http://drop.sc/103099 | ||
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PhantumX
Canada43 Posts
These are your basic options: - Spine your natural. I'm talking about 4, maybe 5 at the max. There's no chance for a toss to bypass that - Like you mentioned, he did macro pretty bad. If you had just droned up, pump some more units out, you would have won. The trick is not to push out yet. You need to stay in your nat until your lair comes and you can get some hydras out. - As mentioned before, hydras. Idra likes to do a 2 base hydra push because a toss will most likely be unprepared for that. Especially for blink stalkers, hydra's are excellent. I usually never go for this anymore because zergs can defend without much problem because they will be ahead once it fails. You should have someone do this to you until you get comfortable defending it because better toss's could pump a lot more than he did. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Did you scout his twilight council and see he was on one base? If so, he's going blink stalkers for sure. Throw up spine crawlers at your natural. Make sure that they cover each over and the hatchery. Or, you could build hydras. It's a lot more gas heavy though, and you need to wait for Lair. It's up to you which you want to do. Spines is easier (no micro or anything), and is just minerals, but you can't really use them to attack or anything. It's easy to transition out of as well. Hydras need to be micro'd and cost gas, but you can mass them and try and go kill Toss with them after his attack fails. User was warned for this post | ||
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UltiPenguin
4 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On February 02 2012 08:54 PhantumX wrote: I disagree, particularly with the spines. I don't know WTF you are thinking when you said spines —especially only 4— could deal with blink stalkers. Typically blink stalkers are used in conjunction with hallucinations, a phoenix, voidray, observer or warp prism, and spines can be bypassed altogether.It's simpler than most people think. It's when you overreact that you will lose to it. - Spine your natural. I'm talking about 4, maybe 5 at the max. There's no chance for a toss to bypass that - As mentioned before, hydras. Idra likes to do a 2 base hydra push because a toss will most likely be unprepared for that. Especially for blink stalkers, hydra's are excellent. Even without the air units, blink stalkers can micro well against spines using their blink, and focus-fire and engage minimum numbers of spines at a time (via the proper angle&location of attack). Obviously zerglings or other units will be with the spines, but they only help to a limited degree. Hydralisks are not a terrible option, but mass hydralisks will lose to mass blink stalkers if you just do a straight up ≈1:1 fight. The hydralisks must be supported by speed zerglings, and even then it can be difficult due to stalker kiting and blink micro (since hydralisks are slow). I'd recommend large numbers of speed zerglings and speed roach to deal with blink stalkers. A common Protoss transition is to then get colossus, to which a mix of mutalisks and/or corruptors (depending on preference and specifics) will work well for zerg. Hydralisks perform poorly if the protoss get to colossus, so I prefer to avoid them in that scenario for that reason combined with the fact they're slow (making it difficult to push/pressure with them if it's vs a fast offensive army like blink stalkers) | ||
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SpankySmith
18 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 02 2012 09:07 Xapti wrote: I disagree, particularly with the spines. I don't know WTF you are thinking when you said spines —especially only 4— could deal with blink stalkers. Typically blink stalkers are used in conjunction with hallucinations, a phoenix, voidray, observer or warp prism, and spines can be bypassed altogether. Even without the air units, blink stalkers can micro well against spines using their blink, and focus-fire and engage minimum numbers of spines at a time (via the proper angle&location of attack). Obviously zerglings or other units will be with the spines, but they only help to a limited degree. Hydralisks are not a terrible option, but mass hydralisks will lose to mass blink stalkers if you just do a straight up ≈1:1 fight. The hydralisks must be supported by speed zerglings, and even then it can be difficult due to stalker kiting and blink micro (since hydralisks are slow). I'd recommend large numbers of speed zerglings and speed roach to deal with blink stalkers. A common Protoss transition is to then get colossus, to which a mix of mutalisks and/or corruptors (depending on preference and specifics) will work well for zerg. Hydralisks perform poorly if the protoss get to colossus, so I prefer to avoid them in that scenario for that reason combined with the fact they're slow (making it difficult to push/pressure with them if it's vs a fast offensive army like blink stalkers) You do realize he's talking about a blink stalker all-in right? That's off of one base, which could not support a stargate or robo... the usual math for 1 base is 4gates, 2gate/1robo, 3 gate/1 stargate. So, it's basically pure blink stalker, and maybe one sentry and zealot from the very beginning. It's very different from a mass blink stalker strat, which is really fun macro practice (anyways, that's besdies the point) The goal of the blink stalker all-in is to kill the expansion. Spines protect the expansion. You also have queens to transfuse them. It's easy to build crawlers so that each one is covered by two others. With a bunch of speedlings as well, those blink stalkers can poke and prod, but they can't actually kill anything. Plus, speedlings can snipe the pylon. Given enough time, the Zerg player will just get enough stuff, and all the fancy blink micro can't do anything. Again, it's a blink-stalker all-in. One base. No way toss can afford to go into standard colosssi deathball. The only real options are to (double)-expand and pray, or desperation DT's. It's a fun strategy and one that you should know, but not one that toss should rely on for ladder wins. The only good time to use it is in some BoX series IMO. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On February 02 2012 09:07 Xapti wrote: I disagree, particularly with the spines. I don't know WTF you are thinking when you said spines —especially only 4— could deal with blink stalkers. Typically blink stalkers are used in conjunction with hallucinations, a phoenix, voidray, observer or warp prism, and spines can be bypassed altogether. Even without the air units, blink stalkers can micro well against spines using their blink, and focus-fire and engage minimum numbers of spines at a time (via the proper angle&location of attack). Obviously zerglings or other units will be with the spines, but they only help to a limited degree. Hydralisks are not a terrible option, but mass hydralisks will lose to mass blink stalkers if you just do a straight up ≈1:1 fight. The hydralisks must be supported by speed zerglings, and even then it can be difficult due to stalker kiting and blink micro (since hydralisks are slow). I'd recommend large numbers of speed zerglings and speed roach to deal with blink stalkers. A common Protoss transition is to then get colossus, to which a mix of mutalisks and/or corruptors (depending on preference and specifics) will work well for zerg. Hydralisks perform poorly if the protoss get to colossus, so I prefer to avoid them in that scenario for that reason combined with the fact they're slow (making it difficult to push/pressure with them if it's vs a fast offensive army like blink stalkers) Did you even read the OP. He said that he was alinned by a 3gate blink. Not a 7gate or something. And even a 7gate doesn't always include a form of high ground vision. I don't know where you got that idea but a 3gate blink stalker allin is NEVER going to include a stargate or robo. MAYBE hallucination. But that's still be so rare. Spines are HUGE for dealing with this type of allin because you are going to have a ton of speedlings. If he goes past using blink. Speedlings tear him apart. As a Protoss player the worst thing that happens to me is when I do the build (on xel naga lets say as thats a good blink stalker map) is WHEN they have like 5 spines. From a one base allin it's extremely hard to expand because their production right after is so huge that they just win and you won't have enough sentries to stop their cost efficiency. So to the OP yes build spines. Get a lot of lings for defending and some roaches won't hurt. Like the person I'm quoting hydras can definitely work but when it's a 1 base allin a lot of times you won't have enough time to get to hydraling. So instead roachling with spines is great | ||
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UltiPenguin
4 Posts
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On February 02 2012 13:43 UltiPenguin wrote: i have never seen one base 7 gate.... especially blink stalker you cant afford it... 3 gate blink stalker can go into an expansion depending on how much damage you can do. just because you don't straight up kill the zerg with that strat means you lose. i mean its likely. but as a zerg its always good to have a future plan to shoot for" a next step". ... Of course you can't afford 7 gates off one base. Please don't insult my intelligence in your lack of knowledge. I'm referring to a very common build off of a forge fast expand called a 7gate +2 blink stalker allin. And was explaining to the previous person under the assumption that he might have thought that a possibility. A 3 gate blink attack is ALLIN and it's important for the OP to understand that he should realize holding it without taking ECONOMICAL damage is pretty much an auto win for the Zerg. If you are the Zerg you should know that and also research that 7gate cause if you don't know how to hold that it'll own you hard. If your toss then learn it. And if your T then wtf. | ||
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ETisME
12480 Posts
you did a 14/14 but you never gotten the speedling upgrade, that is extremely poor. The whole idea of doing 14/14 is to get speedling out early in order to have some ability to be aggressive and also better scouting with map presence. you need to get your expo on time, you could have walked your drone to the expo location at around 200 minerals Also you have made 9 zerglings at a very early stage of the game, don't do that, think about how many more drones you could have had . Get 4 to 6 instead. you engaged without spines for a while and your spine placement needs to be better. You need it to protect the ramp, so he can't just walk his stalkers up and then get into your main and blink back down if he needs to. If he is going for blink stalkers, get speedlings and spines or roache/ling. Don't overextend your aggression and just drone up a little more. Spines are not really very useful against blink stalkers if he has beautiful blink micro. Also don't forget to sac your overlord at around 6:30, you could have seen what kind of strategy he could be going for. You didn't know if he is planning to do a 4 gate or blink stalker or whatever. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 02 2012 14:18 ETisME wrote: come on guys, the replay had only been downloaded by 2 person (including me). Please follow the forum guide. you did a 14/14 but you never gotten the speedling upgrade, that is extremely poor. The whole idea of doing 14/14 is to get speedling out early in order to have some ability to be aggressive and also better scouting with map presence. you need to get your expo on time, you could have walked your drone to the expo location at around 200 minerals Also you have made 9 zerglings at a very early stage of the game, don't do that, think about how many more drones you could have had . Get 4 to 6 instead. you engaged without spines for a while and your spine placement needs to be better. You need it to protect the ramp, so he can't just walk his stalkers up and then get into your main and blink back down if he needs to. If he is going for blink stalkers, get speedlings and spines or roache/ling. Don't overextend your aggression and just drone up a little more. Spines are not really very useful against blink stalkers if he has beautiful blink micro. Also don't forget to sac your overlord at around 6:30, you could have seen what kind of strategy he could be going for. You didn't know if he is planning to do a 4 gate or blink stalker or whatever. The number of downloads thing on dropsc is glitched I think; it works kind of like youtube's view counter. If you put enough spines and have good coverage, blink micro won't help. You can run a lot of stalkers in, snipe a crawler and blink back, but then speedlings can easily get you while you're on cooldown. It's likely the toss will wall off, but if you can get a decent force of lings at his wall off (which won't be well defended) , you can threaten to break it down, and at least force him to warp in stalkers there. I remember dying to that once or twice. | ||
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ETisME
12480 Posts
On February 02 2012 14:25 ticklishmusic wrote: The number of downloads thing on dropsc is glitched I think; it works kind of like youtube's view counter. If you put enough spines and have good coverage, blink micro won't help. You can run a lot of stalkers in, snipe a crawler and blink back, but then speedlings can easily get you while you're on cooldown. It's likely the toss will wall off, but if you can get a decent force of lings at his wall off (which won't be well defended) , you can threaten to break it down, and at least force him to warp in stalkers there. I remember dying to that once or twice. I am pretty sure whoever watched the replay would have noticed he never got the speed upgrade. I agree on the spines that they are useful but what I meant is I don't recommend making too many of them because it uses up drones. In my experience, one or two is totally enough already because I dislike getting contained by toss and very much prefer to make too much speedlings that could be used to kill off the reinforce pylon etc | ||
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canSore
132 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 02 2012 14:41 ETisME wrote: I am pretty sure whoever watched the replay would have noticed he never got the speed upgrade. I agree on the spines that they are useful but what I meant is I don't recommend making too many of them because it uses up drones. In my experience, one or two is totally enough already because I dislike getting contained by toss and very much prefer to make too much speedlings that could be used to kill off the reinforce pylon etc I didn't explicitly state to get speedlings, but I do say speedlings everywhere in my posts. Don't remember if I was like OMG NO SPEED FAILZ, but yeah. It's not too big of a deal IMO. You're on two base. With decent injects, you have a lot of larvae, drones, minerals. Toss is on one base with significantly less income, so a 5 crawlers is no big deal imo. If you trust your micro, go ahead and go lots of lings, but spine crawlers are good insurance. I'm from the toss side of the battle, but that's how I feel. | ||
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alpinefpOPP
United States134 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
A player preparing for only the exact scenario that occurred in that game and not accounting for variations is doomed to lose again. | ||
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Flix
Belgium114 Posts
On February 02 2012 08:54 PhantumX wrote: It's simpler than most people think. It's when you overreact that you will lose to it. These are your basic options: - Spine your natural. I'm talking about 4, maybe 5 at the max. There's no chance for a toss to bypass that - Like you mentioned, he did macro pretty bad. If you had just droned up, pump some more units out, you would have won. The trick is not to push out yet. You need to stay in your nat until your lair comes and you can get some hydras out. - As mentioned before, hydras. Idra likes to do a 2 base hydra push because a toss will most likely be unprepared for that. Especially for blink stalkers, hydra's are excellent. I usually never go for this anymore because zergs can defend without much problem because they will be ahead once it fails. You should have someone do this to you until you get comfortable defending it because better toss's could pump a lot more than he did. 4 to 5 spines at nat seems like overeacting to me. That's 500 minerals and 5 drones. Maybe it's just my preference but i prefer 1 or 2 spines and ling roach as defense while trying to get a third. | ||
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Myusen
Germany29 Posts
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FinalForm
United States450 Posts
I noticed that you threw down 2 evochambers fairly quickly, I suggest avoiding that until you can confirm that the toss is not all-inning you. Start practicing you zergling control to make them more active units on the map. If you are able to keep 1 or 2 lings on the map, you can actively check to see if toss has expanded or not, therefore alerting you to an all-in. During his attack you need to think more defensive, make sure you are fighting where your spines can help. Also be throwing down more spines as the attack is commencing, remember all minerals must be spent in whatever shape or form to hold the all-in. Queens need to come off the line too. hope this helps. | ||
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