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Hey TL.
I'm a Mid/High Masters Terran on the NA/KR and EU servers and more recently, I've been struggling a huge amount with TvZ, I don't know if it's just because I've lost my touch with the matchup or I'm doing something hugely wrong and not noticing it, but I just can't seem to even come close to beating Zerg at all.
![[image loading]](http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1693268131/fuuuu_1__reasonably_small.jpg)
I've tried a variety of different openings and builds which generally lead to the same goal of Marine/Tank/Medivac/Ghost. I've tried:
- Bomber's late gas 3 OC opening
- Standard reactor Hellion
- 1 Rax FE
- Marauder/Hellion all ins
With all of these I just end up losing to mass muta (mainly) counter attacks, and I fear to split my army because I feel I'll just get pushed at the front and completely steamrolled. All that being said, I recently began to suffer minor CTS, so I haven't played for a week or so, but it's just the fact that I can't do anything, I think out of my last 14 TvZ's, I've won 1 and lost 13. As much as that isn't on a huge scale, it's enough for me to say that I'm struggling immensely and really need a hand. I would normally favour heavily dropping, but once mass muta is on the field, I can't do anything regarding drops, and I always run into the problem of letting Zerg spread as much creep as he wants.
Here's a handful of replays of some different openings then me getting compleltely destroyed:
+ Show Spoiler +
I know I can improve my macro, but I don't think the problem solely lies with that, so if anyone can have a brief look at the replays and point me in the right direction, that'd be awesome. Also, if anyone would like to do some practice games, go ahead and add me: Pneumothorax.531
Thanks in advance y'all,
GGPneumo
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same problem with me... high master terran, i feel hopeless against zerg. can't sit back and macro or else they just outmacro you, cant leave your base or else mutas kill ur whole base, can't do timing attacks because my opponent always feel ready for them.
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have you tried using mech? its pretty much the only thing I've been losing to lately. really hard to deal with for me.
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Mech is my go to build for tvz. I tend to play rather passively until im on 3+ bases only using hellions and hellion drops to harass and keep worker count down. I upgrade heavily, if the zerg trys ling/muta and doesnt go roach heavy you can walk across the map siege style and just basically outright win the game. I get plenty of turrets so my slow mech army doesnt have to respond to every muta poke and upgrading hi sec auto tracking allows for turrets to do much better against muta's playing a macro game against zerg doesnt seem like a good thing to do. But if you have any decent micro you can be extremely cost effective against the zergs ling/muta army. Even against roaches I would just add more seige tanks this allows you to do fairly well against a heavy roach push.
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Also just noticed your name. Are you a paramedic by trade or something?
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After watching a few of your replays, I see your two main problems in Unit Compositions and engaging with your army. On the Antiga game, these two problems are evident. I know casters/community members like to proclaim the whole maurader and blue flame additions to your unit comp a completely innovative thing; however, those two additions (used in too high of a volume) can kill your healthy marine numbers if they are added at the wrong time. Also, it seemed like you did the reactor hellion opening just for the sake of doing a reactor hellion opening (Get more hellions!). I would suggest to slow down the speed at which you tech and focus more on heavier marine production going into the mid-game. The mid-game is a time where games can be won and lost off of 1 bad engagement from either side. I presume your build faults are preventing you from playing the rest of the game out correctly. On Engagements.. you need to understand that killing a zergs creep spread can do more than meets the eye. There was a time in your antiga game where you in a decent postion macro wise (besides the slightly faulty unit composition) and you chose to rush up and kill a ton of tumors. Initially, I thought this was a smart move because it forced units and reduced the zerg's mobility; however, you wayyyyy overextended your boundaries and chose to attack at a very odd time. After killing the outlying creep, you should have returned to your base and started to collect your army. Hope this helps our your TvZ, man. GL!
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@Meldrath/Exodus - I've just had like 7 Pneumothoraces, so I thought I'd give it as my name, as I also like the word, pretty unique ^^, and yeah, I used to try mech, but used to get destroyed in the lategame due to it's weakness to broods. That coupled with the low mobility of tank/thor just annoys me :p However, now that Terran is getting a huge range of new mech in HotS, I'll probably end up trending towards mech heavier plays (:
@Razuik - Yeah, like, in one of the more recently Day9Dailies, he said that building a lot more turrets of a 3OC opening or very macro style opening is okay, because you can afford to do it, then just do a 2/1 timing push and pretty much win. I just can't spread my units that well whilst moving and the fact I can't get map control very easily due to Zerg's ability to gain map control with lings at towers, ovie spread and the strength of countering with mass muta. Oki dokey, yeah, I see what you mean; I think I need to focus more on patience, just because I feel that if I give Zerg too much time to tech, he'll just roll me with Infestor/Brood Lord and that's when the mass Ling/Bling tech switches are incredibly strong. But yeah, I'll take into account what you've said, try to stick to more of a marine heavy composition and then tech up a little more slowly 
1 final question, I've heard people say that if you see Infestors instead of Mutas, just mass expand because of their low mobility, and others that say you should just mass drop. I feel that I can never actively push or deny bases whenever Infestors are out on the map, halp? :D
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I watched a few of your replays. Here is my list of glaring issues with your play ordered by my view of importance. All criticism is meant to be constructive!
1. Lack of purpose with choice of strategy.
You don't seem to know what you want to do exactly. A lot of your play looks like poor improvisation (the blueflame hellion transition in the Antiga game, or the mech into a hasty bio switch after spotting mutas in the Shakuras game). On every map that you want to get good at, brainstorm some strong mid game plans with advantage scenarios so that you are not freestyling.
Example of a plan:
+ Show Spoiler +Cross positions on Antiga: Open reactor hellion expand into quick tank production and a fast 3rd orbital. Push out to take the 3rd when 1/1 finishes. When 2/2 finishes, aggressively control the center of the map with sensor towers to take the gold as a 4th, and use drops to keep the zerg at or below 4 bases.
2. Lack of build order optimization
Some sloppiness in builds after the 7-8 minute mark. Make sure you are questioning everything you do to see if it is both optimized and fits with your plan.
3. Willingness to fight on creep.
Try not to do this. If you really want to attack a spot and there is creep there, then something is wrong with your game plan 5 minutes before your attack, and you need some adjustments. Builds like reactor hellion openings are fantastic at keeping creep at bay.
4. Difficulty dealing with counter attacks, especially of the muta variety.
We all hate this shit, but there are some good techniques to make it less annoying. Learn to scale up your defense as the game progresses. While 3-4 turrets may be good enough for the 10 minute mark, when a zerg dedicates to mutalisks (20+), you need to add turrets and leave marines and/or a thor behind in awkward to defend places. Using your newly produced/rallied units and repair are also great situational tricks.
5. Macro issues
Somewhat self explanatory. Try to do a better job of anticipating increases in income and adding production before your resources hit 4 digits. I think you know that this needs some work, so even though it belongs higher up on the list, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
GL figuring this matchup out as it is my personal favorite to play and watch
For some good resources, check out KawaiiRice's replay pack (seriously this guy has baller TvZ), or the TvZ guide by The.Doctor here on TL!
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ahh sorry to hear that, good luck with the tvz I hope you can get a better win % with our help :0)
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On January 16 2012 17:57 Pneumothorax wrote:@Meldrath/Exodus - I've just had like 7 Pneumothoraces, so I thought I'd give it as my name, as I also like the word, pretty unique ^^, and yeah, I used to try mech, but used to get destroyed in the lategame due to it's weakness to broods. That coupled with the low mobility of tank/thor just annoys me :p However, now that Terran is getting a huge range of new mech in HotS, I'll probably end up trending towards mech heavier plays (: @Razuik - Yeah, like, in one of the more recently Day9Dailies, he said that building a lot more turrets of a 3OC opening or very macro style opening is okay, because you can afford to do it, then just do a 2/1 timing push and pretty much win. I just can't spread my units that well whilst moving and the fact I can't get map control very easily due to Zerg's ability to gain map control with lings at towers, ovie spread and the strength of countering with mass muta. Oki dokey, yeah, I see what you mean; I think I need to focus more on patience, just because I feel that if I give Zerg too much time to tech, he'll just roll me with Infestor/Brood Lord and that's when the mass Ling/Bling tech switches are incredibly strong. But yeah, I'll take into account what you've said, try to stick to more of a marine heavy composition and then tech up a little more slowly 1 final question, I've heard people say that if you see Infestors instead of Mutas, just mass expand because of their low mobility, and others that say you should just mass drop. I feel that I can never actively push or deny bases whenever Infestors are out on the map, halp? :D
Response to my portion: If you fix your general build plan for the mid-game and macro well, you can have a army ready to kill the zerg mid-game army at any time. Another wall you may hit after fixing your build issues is unit control. That is something you'll need to develope over time. So quick reminder-- Kill creep to reduce his map control, force units, and ultimately reduce the speed he techs to hive.
Edit: VS Infestors: I usually have success with heavy drops and turtling for fast ghosts. Turtle your 3 base, 20-30 ghosts (try to take bases while harassing), and maxing. Your army should be able to crush his if controlled properly.
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I was having terrible problems vs Zerg too. I was keeping them contained on 2 base with 6-8 helions till mutas popped, going 3 oc into marine tank. Couldn't seem to win for shit. Since then I've been doing still going 3 cc with reactor helion, but I keep making marauders till I have 4 then poke them. Then, I transition into THOR, helion. On 3 bases get 5 facs and either tech lab starport vs infestor or reactor starport vs broods. Take a 4th as you push. Won my last 6 games. Mech is good.
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Imo mech is only good on some maps and not in any close by air position.
the moment a zerg really knows how to play vs mech it gets really hard to hold 3+ bases. :/
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Yeah, I know it can be difficult, considering the amount of micro that we have to do, especially during the later stages of the game; and if you get caught out of position once in the game, regardless of whether you're ahead or not, the game's over in 90% of most cases. I really think the core marine/tank/medivac into ghosts in the later game is the way to go, obviously adding Marauders if Ultra tech is scouted, just I think I needed a hand realising my main problems that I was having, what I could do better, etc. I think I need to try a new control group setup, splitting up tanks/marines/ghosts, purely because currently, I'm having my whole army on 5, therefore finding it difficult to spread and when the battle comes I have to select tanks to seige, ctrl + click on all marines, stim and spread back, which can cost me vital ingame seconds.
So weird that I used to not be able to win TvP at all and had like 85% win ratio in TvZ, now it's the other way around :p
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Give mech a chance, its working great for me (EU midmaster terran)
the only problem is roach ling allin/Roach ling bling all ins or mass roach drops
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On January 16 2012 18:47 Pneumothorax wrote:
So weird that I used to not be able to win TvP at all and had like 85% win ratio in TvZ, now it's the other way around :p
This times 20 for me also. lol
I basically marauder hellion all in on the maps decent for it in the pool. If you can deny all scouting and sell reactor hellion expand it has really high success rate. But its pretty lame... I try macro builds on the maps you can't do it on but not with much success.
I used to do VERY well with mech and TvZ was my best matchup but I feel like people have seen it a lot more now and its lost its effectiveness for me.
I also can win games by going reactor hellion expand into twoport banshee but I hate these games because either your banshee basically win the game and you do massive damage and then roll over them; OR they do nothing at all and you might as well gg then because even if you stretch it out for 10mins you have no chance of winning.
The problem I have with standard play is I feel like too much hinges on the 3 tank push and the results from it are so inconsistent. Sometimes it wins me the game. Sometimes he defends but it costs him a lot and we are sort of even (maybe T slightly behind) and often it gets crushed and the game is over. Most longish games I win because of 2 possibilities. 1) zerg has difficulty defending drops and you wear him down or 2) he miscontrols his muta at some point and I kill off the muta ball. However, I am 100% certain that the problem is my mechanics\apm\multitasking are not enough to keep up macro/secure my third while controlling that super super important tank push.  Watching GSL makes me sad because of how these T manage to harass\contain and get a 3rd up faster than the zerg. lol
Pretty low Master btw, so I know I am bad and just need to get better.
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On January 16 2012 19:27 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:47 Pneumothorax wrote:
So weird that I used to not be able to win TvP at all and had like 85% win ratio in TvZ, now it's the other way around :p This times 20 for me also. lol I basically marauder hellion all in on the maps decent for it in the pool. If you can deny all scouting and sell reactor hellion expand it has really high success rate. But its pretty lame... I try macro builds on the maps you can't do it on but not with much success. I used to do VERY well with mech and TvZ was my best matchup but I feel like people have seen it a lot more now and its lost its effectiveness for me. I also can win games by going reactor hellion expand into twoport banshee but I hate these games because either your banshee basically win the game and you do massive damage and then roll over them; OR they do nothing at all and you might as well gg then because even if you stretch it out for 10mins you have no chance of winning. The problem I have with standard play is I feel like too much hinges on the 3 tank push and the results from it are so inconsistent. Sometimes it wins me the game. Sometimes he defends but it costs him a lot and we are sort of even (maybe T slightly behind) and often it gets crushed and the game is over. Most longish games I win because of 2 possibilities. 1) zerg has difficulty defending drops and you wear him down or 2) he miscontrols his muta at some point and I kill off the muta ball. However, I am 100% certain that the problem is my mechanics\apm\multitasking are not enough to keep up macro/secure my third while controlling that super super important tank push. Watching GSL makes me sad because of how these T manage to harass\contain and get a 3rd up faster than the zerg. lol Pretty low Master btw, so I know I am bad and just need to get better.
3 tank push is pretty outdated to be honest. It still has its situational uses, but the mass ling/upgrades that are all the rage shut it down pretty hard. It seems the current TvZ trend is to do a 2 medivac timing attack to kill/delay the zerg's 3rd and then start tank production/take a 3rd. MVP used this style in games 2 and 3 against Lucky in the GSL this season.
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On January 17 2012 00:56 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:27 Atreides wrote:On January 16 2012 18:47 Pneumothorax wrote:
So weird that I used to not be able to win TvP at all and had like 85% win ratio in TvZ, now it's the other way around :p This times 20 for me also. lol I basically marauder hellion all in on the maps decent for it in the pool. If you can deny all scouting and sell reactor hellion expand it has really high success rate. But its pretty lame... I try macro builds on the maps you can't do it on but not with much success. I used to do VERY well with mech and TvZ was my best matchup but I feel like people have seen it a lot more now and its lost its effectiveness for me. I also can win games by going reactor hellion expand into twoport banshee but I hate these games because either your banshee basically win the game and you do massive damage and then roll over them; OR they do nothing at all and you might as well gg then because even if you stretch it out for 10mins you have no chance of winning. The problem I have with standard play is I feel like too much hinges on the 3 tank push and the results from it are so inconsistent. Sometimes it wins me the game. Sometimes he defends but it costs him a lot and we are sort of even (maybe T slightly behind) and often it gets crushed and the game is over. Most longish games I win because of 2 possibilities. 1) zerg has difficulty defending drops and you wear him down or 2) he miscontrols his muta at some point and I kill off the muta ball. However, I am 100% certain that the problem is my mechanics\apm\multitasking are not enough to keep up macro/secure my third while controlling that super super important tank push. Watching GSL makes me sad because of how these T manage to harass\contain and get a 3rd up faster than the zerg. lol Pretty low Master btw, so I know I am bad and just need to get better. 3 tank push is pretty outdated to be honest. It still has its situational uses, but the mass ling/upgrades that are all the rage shut it down pretty hard. It seems the current TvZ trend is to do a 2 medivac timing attack to kill/delay the zerg's 3rd and then start tank production/take a 3rd. MVP used this style in games 2 and 3 against Lucky in the GSL this season.
yeah I agree but if they didn't go mass ling and have blings than that push is super micro intensive and dependent and also its absolutely mandatory that you kept creep under control. Both things that I (and I think probably most sub top10 Masters) players have difficulty with. (The hard part being, executing your build flawlessly while doing those things, not the actual doing) I mean like I said I can watch GSL and be totally inspired but there is this wierd thing where all that needs to happen is you need to "get better" but its REALLY hard to get better while losing every game.
That is a large part of why I switched to a 1base playstyle in all matchups on at least some maps at the moment because it lets you focus on improving unit control and build order execution while harassing. AND I get to win games lol. which is just nice. Despite how much people look down on it, you can definitely improve certain areas of your play by "all-inning" or "cheesing" in my opinion. Particularly if your play is weak in those particular areas. Its not just about improving unit control and micro, its about improving your macro WHILE microing and harassing. And you might as well get good at this during the early game before you worry about perfecting it while on 5 bases. Because as people allways say you can definitely get to masters with nothing but decent macro and good decision making with awful micro. (I did) But there is a limit to how fun it can take you, and also good unit control is satisfying and fun.
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If you're having trouble with Muta counter attacks you really shouldn't be a few turrets and repairing scvs can actually stave off a flock of 15+ mutas its kinda ridiculous how cost-efficient turrets are when repaired.
Just make sure you have 1-2 turrets at each base by 10 min.
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On January 16 2012 18:00 alphafuzard wrote:I watched a few of your replays. Here is my list of glaring issues with your play ordered by my view of importance. All criticism is meant to be constructive! 1. Lack of purpose with choice of strategy.You don't seem to know what you want to do exactly. A lot of your play looks like poor improvisation (the blueflame hellion transition in the Antiga game, or the mech into a hasty bio switch after spotting mutas in the Shakuras game). On every map that you want to get good at, brainstorm some strong mid game plans with advantage scenarios so that you are not freestyling. Example of a plan: + Show Spoiler +Cross positions on Antiga: Open reactor hellion expand into quick tank production and a fast 3rd orbital. Push out to take the 3rd when 1/1 finishes. When 2/2 finishes, aggressively control the center of the map with sensor towers to take the gold as a 4th, and use drops to keep the zerg at or below 4 bases. Some sloppiness in builds after the 7-8 minute mark. Make sure you are questioning everything you do to see if it is both optimized and fits with your plan. 3. Willingness to fight on creep.Try not to do this. If you really want to attack a spot and there is creep there, then something is wrong with your game plan 5 minutes before your attack, and you need some adjustments. Builds like reactor hellion openings are fantastic at keeping creep at bay. 4. Difficulty dealing with counter attacks, especially of the muta variety.We all hate this shit, but there are some good techniques to make it less annoying. Learn to scale up your defense as the game progresses. While 3-4 turrets may be good enough for the 10 minute mark, when a zerg dedicates to mutalisks (20+), you need to add turrets and leave marines and/or a thor behind in awkward to defend places. Using your newly produced/rallied units and repair are also great situational tricks. 5. Macro issuesSomewhat self explanatory. Try to do a better job of anticipating increases in income and adding production before your resources hit 4 digits. I think you know that this needs some work, so even though it belongs higher up on the list, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. GL figuring this matchup out as it is my personal favorite to play and watch For some good resources, check out KawaiiRice's replay pack (seriously this guy has baller TvZ), or the TvZ guide by The.Doctor here on TL!
Good Comments, I've seen the doctor play in a Toronto tournament and was impressed by his TvZ. I actually talked with him about getting a replay and he was nice enough to hook some up 
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Yeah, I've played a few more TvZ's now, mainly on NA, and seem to be succeeding with a 1 rax Reaper 3OC build, I feel like the reapers give me good map control and keep the zerg in his base for the beginning portion of the game, then I just mass up marines then eventually tanks and medivacs. Also, I can get ghosts a little earlier as well, as I've got the 3rd base a lot faster, and ohmagawd snipe is amazing vs Mutas :D Thanks for the help so far guise ^^ ♥
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EPT
