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On April 30 2012 13:06 ETisME wrote:
the question is, are the units going to worth all the investment? I can see it taking down hellions, map control but how about dealing damages? (maybe getting some depots down or a few marines + scv pull?)
that's really my main and only concern, probably the one guide from Tang that I might do because it looks more macro based and easier to transition.
If your plan is to pressure, you can always build fewer lings - to 52 supply is perfect for a macro transition. DRG does a similar roach build, except he skips zerglings in favor of a faster 3rd.
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On April 30 2012 11:05 bankai wrote:Hi all, not sure if this question has been asked already so forgive me if it has: - Is there a reason for the slight difference in this BO compared to the original Tang thread on the ZvT Roach all-in or is it? In Phase 1 in this one, you build lings up to 60/60 supply, but in the other thread you only build lings up to 52/60 supply. - The basic BO in Step 1 does not seem to mention drone scouting - at what point should I send my drone out? I prefer 9 normally so I can get inside the terran wall-off to scout gas or not. Thanks for your help everyone 
Making Zerglings to 60 is an even larger commitment, meant to emphasize how easy it is to transition out of a 22+Drone, 2base 2queen economy. Exactly how many zerglings you produce depends on what your goal is, generally if you cut lings between 52-60 supply, and don't fall behind in the multitasking, you can be even or ahead against the majority of Terran builds (Assuming you don't break in and end it immediately).
There are professional zerg players who drone scout on 10, 13, and 15. There are also players who don't drone scout at all. I drone scout if I'm planning to play a riskier macro build, but if I'm getting a 28 warren, I feel pretty safe against anything but a 2rax all-in.
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On April 30 2012 23:14 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 11:05 bankai wrote:Hi all, not sure if this question has been asked already so forgive me if it has: - Is there a reason for the slight difference in this BO compared to the original Tang thread on the ZvT Roach all-in or is it? In Phase 1 in this one, you build lings up to 60/60 supply, but in the other thread you only build lings up to 52/60 supply. - The basic BO in Step 1 does not seem to mention drone scouting - at what point should I send my drone out? I prefer 9 normally so I can get inside the terran wall-off to scout gas or not. Thanks for your help everyone Making Zerglings to 60 is an even larger commitment, meant to emphasize how easy it is to transition out of a 22+Drone, 2base 2queen economy. Exactly how many zerglings you produce depends on what your goal is, generally if you cut lings between 52-60 supply, and don't fall behind in the multitasking, you can be even or ahead against the majority of Terran builds (Assuming you don't break in and end it immediately). There are professional zerg players who drone scout on 10, 13, and 15. There are also players who don't drone scout at all. I drone scout if I'm planning to play a riskier macro build, but if I'm getting a 28 warren, I feel pretty safe against anything but a 2rax all-in.
Thanks Tang, makes a lot of sense!
I have tried this a couple of times, and have problem with the suggested 14hatch opener. On shattered temple, some terrans have walled me in with their first depot/rax before my drone can get out to put down that 14hatch. What shoould I do? Should I just immediately take gas/pool and go roaches?
The above was the reason why i was thinking to 10 scout but then not sure if it slows down execution of this build since its quite tight.
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On May 01 2012 11:51 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:14 TangSC wrote:On April 30 2012 11:05 bankai wrote:Hi all, not sure if this question has been asked already so forgive me if it has: - Is there a reason for the slight difference in this BO compared to the original Tang thread on the ZvT Roach all-in or is it? In Phase 1 in this one, you build lings up to 60/60 supply, but in the other thread you only build lings up to 52/60 supply. - The basic BO in Step 1 does not seem to mention drone scouting - at what point should I send my drone out? I prefer 9 normally so I can get inside the terran wall-off to scout gas or not. Thanks for your help everyone Making Zerglings to 60 is an even larger commitment, meant to emphasize how easy it is to transition out of a 22+Drone, 2base 2queen economy. Exactly how many zerglings you produce depends on what your goal is, generally if you cut lings between 52-60 supply, and don't fall behind in the multitasking, you can be even or ahead against the majority of Terran builds (Assuming you don't break in and end it immediately). There are professional zerg players who drone scout on 10, 13, and 15. There are also players who don't drone scout at all. I drone scout if I'm planning to play a riskier macro build, but if I'm getting a 28 warren, I feel pretty safe against anything but a 2rax all-in. Thanks Tang, makes a lot of sense! I have tried this a couple of times, and have problem with the suggested 14hatch opener. On shattered temple, some terrans have walled me in with their first depot/rax before my drone can get out to put down that 14hatch. What shoould I do? Should I just immediately take gas/pool and go roaches? The above was the reason why i was thinking to 10 scout but then not sure if it slows down execution of this build since its quite tight.
In all honesty, I've never had my expansion walled with a barracks and a depot - I don't really see how that could be a viable opening for terran. If he's sending 2 SCVs that early, you should know something very strange is up. In general I would just start gas/pool in the main and aim for Zerglings with speed, and probably banelings too just in case I need to bust through to take my natural.
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On May 02 2012 07:16 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 11:51 bankai wrote:On April 30 2012 23:14 TangSC wrote:On April 30 2012 11:05 bankai wrote:Hi all, not sure if this question has been asked already so forgive me if it has: - Is there a reason for the slight difference in this BO compared to the original Tang thread on the ZvT Roach all-in or is it? In Phase 1 in this one, you build lings up to 60/60 supply, but in the other thread you only build lings up to 52/60 supply. - The basic BO in Step 1 does not seem to mention drone scouting - at what point should I send my drone out? I prefer 9 normally so I can get inside the terran wall-off to scout gas or not. Thanks for your help everyone Making Zerglings to 60 is an even larger commitment, meant to emphasize how easy it is to transition out of a 22+Drone, 2base 2queen economy. Exactly how many zerglings you produce depends on what your goal is, generally if you cut lings between 52-60 supply, and don't fall behind in the multitasking, you can be even or ahead against the majority of Terran builds (Assuming you don't break in and end it immediately). There are professional zerg players who drone scout on 10, 13, and 15. There are also players who don't drone scout at all. I drone scout if I'm planning to play a riskier macro build, but if I'm getting a 28 warren, I feel pretty safe against anything but a 2rax all-in. Thanks Tang, makes a lot of sense! I have tried this a couple of times, and have problem with the suggested 14hatch opener. On shattered temple, some terrans have walled me in with their first depot/rax before my drone can get out to put down that 14hatch. What shoould I do? Should I just immediately take gas/pool and go roaches? The above was the reason why i was thinking to 10 scout but then not sure if it slows down execution of this build since its quite tight. In all honesty, I've never had my expansion walled with a barracks and a depot - I don't really see how that could be a viable opening for terran. If he's sending 2 SCVs that early, you should know something very strange is up. In general I would just start gas/pool in the main and aim for Zerglings with speed, and probably banelings too just in case I need to bust through to take my natural.
Ok thanks for the advice
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First off, I can't believe some of the idiotic replies to this guide...calling it an "all-in" or saying that this build just "doesn't work"....Stephano and DRG use similar versions of this build. They don't just hide behind a single spine crawler and power out drones up to three bases every game (particularly vs. terran). The most effective Terrans are essentially using the same concepts preached here but for their own race ... they create units with which to be aggressive whilst following it up with macro.
Even if you don't do a ton of damage you can cause your opponent to be thrown off his macro game with the aggression....and if you smartly engage with those early units (i.e., don't lose them all if an attack proves fruitless), you will have the means to defend yourself into the mid-game..this also gives you the means to counterattack and prevent expansions, rather than playing a completely passive style. Also, its good to note that being aggressive and scouting often coincide nicely...giving you and idea of where your opponent's army/economy is at during the early midgame...
This is a great style and I appreciate this guide...I have to lol at people who "disagree" with this guide ... so you disagree with a coherent strategy to put pressure on your opponent while creating a booming economy? Tang says it himself: a build is more a flexible concept than an "algorithm" ... you can scale the aggro vs. economy in either direction and tweak this as you like....
Interestingly, I think Slayers.Coca is a wonderful example of how a "macro-aggressive" zerg can dominate Terrans, particularly in the recent Korean Weekly that he won....although I would argue that perhaps his focus is a bit too much on the aggression side than the macro side. He would often take a late 4th when his main was mining out and never reach 3:3 upgrades or upgrade to cracklings....nevertheless his aggression absolutely crushed Taeja in the early game to the point that his macro-failures in the late game almost didn't matter .... they did play close games and I suspect that with better macro Taeja would have been put away much more quickly...
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i've actually been using your "three barrel bust" strategy tang and my ZvT has been rocking low-mid masters players :D the roach push is awesome and is a good "shit test" to see if the T worth his salt imo. if he handles it poorly i all in and if he's prepared i just pull back, drone/expand, and prepare for the next huge bust. i can't even stress how much having a plan and making huge amount of units has helped my ZvT :D
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On May 10 2012 15:21 patzernuk wrote:
i've actually been using your "three barrel bust" strategy tang and my ZvT has been rocking low-mid masters players :D the roach push is awesome and is a good "shit test" to see if the T worth his salt imo. if he handles it poorly i all in and if he's prepared i just pull back, drone/expand, and prepare for the next huge bust. i can't even stress how much having a plan and making huge amount of units has helped my ZvT :D
I still do the three barrel bust occasionally ^^ the first roach push definitely catches a lot of players off guard and theoretically can win the game if their response isn't solid, but the ability to hit a timing attack and use it to drone is an overlooked concept in the current Zerg metagame.
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Really liking this build. It doesn't feel like an all in either. I personally like to follow the initial attack up with a transition into muta/ling/bane and so far it has worked well for me.
Heres two games vs diamond league folks using this build. Excuse my far from perfect play and execution.
Metalopolis
http://replayfu.com/r/t4Zcnj
Cloud Kingdom LE
http://replayfu.com/r/XTHq4g
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On May 12 2012 08:56 DontCheeseMe wrote:Really liking this build. It doesn't feel like an all in either. I personally like to follow the initial attack up with a transition into muta/ling/bane and so far it has worked well for me. Heres two games vs diamond league folks using this build. Excuse my far from perfect play and execution. Metalopolishttp://replayfu.com/r/t4ZcnjCloud Kingdom LEhttp://replayfu.com/r/XTHq4g
Yeah that works too. I personally prefer to use my gas to get +1+1 and eventually infestors, but as long as you're aiming for full 2base saturation with 4 gas and a 3rd base eventually, you can afford Roach/Ling/Baneling, Muta/Ling/Baneling, or Ling/Infestor in the midgame.
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EPT
