[G] Zerg Guide to Macro-Aggression

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 21:03 GMT

[G] Zerg Guide to Macro-Aggression

Image courtesy of http://www.thehandsomenerd.com/

Hello TL forum-goers, thank you very much for checking out my newest SC2 article.

A lot of my previous threads have been all about attack-attack-attack. You might know me as a very aggressive (some would argue “cheesy”) Zerg player, but I did make it to Grand Master twice on the NA server and I'm writing this guide to emphasize the supreme importance of Macro, even if you're a balls-to-the-wall aggressive player.

You need money to make units. Simply put, how you GET the units you want to attack with is just as important as what you DO with them. So my goal in this guide is to help you to pay extremely close attention to the precise details of your build order, because I think it's really your planning/macro that makes the difference between an average all-in and an extremely potent timing attack.

I will use the following ZvT roach/ling timing attack to emphasize my point:
8Roaches / 32 Speedlings arrive at terran natural ramp at 7:15

We'll go over all the build order/timing basics in steps one and two to show you how to execute this powerful early game attack, but the main focus of this guide will be step 3, where I break down the build into a detailed analysis to show you how you can maximize your early-game economy, perfect your build order and timings, and execute an 8Roach/32+ Zergling attack while taking a 3rd base at the 7:15.

This will allow you to put on early pressure, hold off any mid-game counterattacks, and still reach a comfortable late-game:
Maxed out Infestor/Crackling/Ultralisk with +3/+3 on the way by the 15:30 Mark.

It's important to note that although we'll be looking at a Zerg build that I use against Terran, the key concepts in this guide can be applied to the all-around game play of all the races. The reason this is such a relevant concept for all players is simple: I'm going to explain the macro-structure of the build – how all the pieces come together. This concept is not often studied in great detail but is, in my experience, incredibly important to success on the Starcraft II battlefield.

References:

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In this thread, I'm going to choose the build I described in the ZvT Roach/Ling “All-In” (Or is it?) thread I recently wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300818

I copy/pasted the opening text of Steps 1 and 2 from my detailed guide on the 14Gas/14Pool Speedling Expand:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252865

Some of the concepts I discuss in this thread are taken from my University Lectures on Fundamentals of Aggressive Zerg:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=297345
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278161

Reddit Link:

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Zerg Guide to Macro Aggression - Please Upvote!

The Concept:

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Many times when someone learns a build, they'll quickly look at the food timings and focus primarily on controlling their units. In reality, there is much more to a build than just food-relative timings. And you would think that it would make a lot more sense to start with the little pieces, to start with the micro, unit control, hotkeys, and build up and build up and then talk about the macro-structure. But that's actually backwards of what we need to do. And the reason is the large-scale structure of the build is WAY more important than any of the little things – the little things will come when the structure is there. How you organize your play is going to determine to a large degree whether your play is effective.

So, I'm going to remind you of that annoying advice that you probably got from your 5th or 6th grade English teacher when you first started essay writing – and that's “first you have to have an outline, then you have to have a rough draft, then you have to have a final draft, then you have to polish it.” And you know, this advice is pretty much right in SC2 as well.

However, most people don't work this way, most of my students do not sit down and first sketch an outline of a build, and then practice, and then make some alterations, and then practice, and then make a final build order. What they do is open a game and start playing, haha and it's what I used to do also. However, if you're dedicated to learning and perfecting a build, this isn't the optimal way to proceed. Instead, you have to have structure and the following steps should be utilized when trying to learn a new build:

Step One: Learn the Basic Structure

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Now when you're trying to do something really difficult, and I'll be honest learning a build is difficult, it puts very strong cognitive demands on your brain. So if you start with something too complex, the first things to fall apart are the details. This is why I recommend first learning the basics of a build order BEFORE getting too concerned with the subtle details.

When you start to do something that's a little bit beyond what you can easily handle, all your technique starts to fall apart, all the little things start to go – and this is what happens learning/practicing a build! You're trying to work out a very complex build, and YOU'RE thinking “I need help with my micro, I need help with my control, look at all these mistakes I'm making, etc”. The problem isn't with the micro or your control. The problem is that your brain is trying to process the complicated ideas that you're working on. And while all that mental energy is going into those ideas, the little things – the micro, the control, the build order timings – are starting to fall apart. So what we're trying to do when learning a build is to get our brains to help us rather than to get in our way. The best way that I know how to do this is through structure – if you figure out what the large-scale structure of your build is supposed to be, THEN you can slot in all the other little pieces and it'll work much more effectively than you might believe.

Look at the top pro Morrow: he's was known for opening 14gas/14pool nearly every single game he played Zerg. As a result, his responses to his opponents are always so crisply executed and he's rarely thrown off by things like early aggression and harassment. Clearly, a structured build is important to success and once you're comfortable with the opening, you'll be ready to proceed to the strategy. Here are the basics of the 14Hatch Ling/Roach Timing Attack:

14Hatch Roach/Ling Timing Attack

9Overlord
14Hatch
14Gas
14Pool
16Overlord
16 2xQueen
20Lingsx2/4 (1-2 sets)
Drones to 28
28 Warren (Replace Drone)
Start Zergling Speed
28 Overlordsx2
28-44 Roaches
44 Overlordsx2
44-60 Lings
60/60 3rd Base/Overlord

These basic details, without any other information, should be practiced repetitively so that the order becomes memorized/second-nature. If you're frequently forgetting to build overlords at the appropriate times, you're not ready to focus on anything more complicated than that. When the order in which you execute a build is flawless and you know every move before you make it, you're ready to move onto step two:

Step 2: Think Early Game Strategy

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Now that you have your timings down, it's time to look at the specifics of when your buildings, units, and upgrades finish. Once you have this information, you're ready to focus on the strategy – what you're going to do with your units. In the case of the 14Hatch Roach/Ling opening, your main concerns are holding any kind of early pressure as cheaply as possible so that you can hit your opponent with the strongest timing attack. What zerg players commonly do is drone scout after they start the hatchery (14 Supply) to determine if their opponent is cheesing. In the event of cheese, you would build spines/additional zerglings but for the sake of this guide, we'll be assuming standard "light" marine pressure or quick hellions. I almost always recommend exactly 4 zerglings if your opponent isn't opening 2barracks.

Specific Timings to consider with the 14 Hatch Roach/Ling:
4:15 – 2-4Lings Spawn - You should kill your opponent's scouting worker and take the xel-naga. This will give you the information you need to determine whether you should make more lings, because if you see 6 marines coming you might NOT want to drone all the way to 28. You should only really feel safe from pressure in the early game once you kille his scouting worker and have the xel-naga vision between your base and his, with one ling patrolling the front of his base. Generally speaking, you will not experience heavy marine pressure so you only need 1 zergling to scout the front of your opponent's base and 1-2 zergling(s) to take the xel naga(s). If you have all 4 lings out front of the terran's base, you'll lose them to 1 hellion.

4:40 – Both Queens Pop - You can spit with both these queens, but you should bring your main queen to your expansion use after the first inject (To defend hellions and spread one tumor). No hellions can hit you before your queens will finish, and usually only 1-2 hellions will be there before you get roaches on the field.

4:45 You start your warren. Typically you want to build this in your main, as it's less likely to be scouted by his hellions (Remembers, hellions never get up your ramp because you have 2 queens)

4:50 Start Zergling Speed. This may seem late to many players, but you don't end up needing early speed with your first hundred gas. It's much better to delay it, get your roach warren started, and then start the speed.

5:10 – 2x Overlords. It's very important not to forget these, as any seconds late will delay your roaches which could potentially mean drone losses if terran is aggressive with hellions.

5:15/5:30 If he does decide to pressure with his 2 hellions at around 5:15/5:30 before your roaches are out, do NOT make zerglings. Instead, run your expansion drones up the ramp into your main and just hold your queens on the ramp until roaches spawn.

5:40 You should have the 200 gas you need to build your 8 roaches, so you can take guys out of gas and move them to mining your expansion.

5:45 – Roach warren finishes and you can start 8 roaches right away.

6:00 2xOverlords. Again, don't forget these overlords! They're needed to produce lings as soon as the roaches are out, and they're crucial to the effectiveness of your timing attack.

6:20 Roachx8 Spawn (Just in time to deal with that scary 4-6 hellion count). You can lead with 3 roaches and then the other roaches a bit later to “meta-game” a bit, or you can just move right out with all 8 roaches and rally the hatcheries onto the roaches to reinforce with lings.

6:25 – Lings Building, your roaches are moving towards terran.

6:40 – Ling speed finishes JUST as your lings pop, allowing them to get to your roaches very quickly. Earlier speed would have been wasted, so it times out just right

7:15 -Your army reaches the terran expansion/ramp while you start your 3rd base.

Step 3: Perfecting The Details

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Once you have practiced the basic build order, are able to maintain consistent timings on your units/buildings/upgrades from game to game, and are comfortable utilizing the basic scouting/anti-scouting techniques I mentioned above, you're well on your way to optimally executing this build. Still, there is a LOT you can do to improve the efficiency of your opening, and it's time to fill in as many gaps as possible. The following is a very precise and detailed explanation of the 14Hatch Roach/Ling timing and transition into mid/late game macro:

Here is the replay for the macro-lesson: http://drop.sc/88288

1) Drone Splitting: For general purposes, take all 6 drones and right click either patch 3 or 6. Then select 3 while they're on the way and right click the other patch.

2) Next, rally additional drones to mineral patches that aren't being mined yet. If you forgot and rallied to the bottom patch, for example, your drone would first go to that patch, then “bounce” off and go to one of the top two patches. Earn a few extra mining seconds by rallying to patches that aren't being mined.

3) One patch left that isn't mined, rally to that one.

4) Now that you have 1 drone on each mineral patch, it's time to double-mine the closer patches. Make sure your drones “Stick” to the patches you want them to go to. What often happens is the drone you rally will get there at the same time as the drone that is already mining, causing one of them to “Bounce”. You can avoid this by repetitively right clicking the patch with both drones (or the one that wants to bounce)

5) Again, we're rallying to those closer patches

6) Uh oh one drone wants to bounce, continuously right click until it “sticks”

7) When constructing a building, you want to avoid pulling drones off mining when possible. For example, with a 14 hatch you can rally your 14th drone to build the hatchery.

8) Same thing with your pool, try to rally one of your drone eggs to do this instead of using a drone that's currently mining.

9) When gas is finishing, choose drones that are closer to the extractor but NOT those that are double-mining the close patches. Notice the drones pulled are either just popping out of eggs or just returning minerals. (Helps avoid wasted mining time/mining gas with a mouth full of minerals)

10) Drone selection

11) Drones all in gas, notice those 4 close patches still have 2 mining per patch.

12) 16 Overlord, try to get in the habit of rallying those eggs.

13) Your pool and hatchery should finish at about the same time, produce 2 queens and a set or 2 of lings right away. Don't transfer to expansion unless you need drones to defend, remember we want those drones mining 2 per patch.

14) After those lings, go right back into droning.

15) Rally drones to get 2 mining per patch, remember to make them stick.

16) ATTENTION: Now we have 2 mining per patch (total: 16 drones). We can rally hatchery to expansion minerals. These 16 drones are NEVER touched for any reason, unless you're forced to defend with them.

17) Even when building a warren in your main at 28, you don't pull a drone off mining – you use a rallied drone instead.

18) Replace that drone that built the warren and start speed at 28/28

19) 28/28 – Make 2 overlords and rally them right away.

20) Once you've mined 200 gas (not including ling speed) take guys out of gas and mine at expansion.

21) When warren is done, start 8 roaches immediately. Should put you at 44/44 with NO RESOURCES left over.

22) Rally your lings onto your roaches, make lings until 60 supply (44-60)

23) Once you're at 60, move a drone from your expansion to start your 3rd.

24) 8 Roaches, 32 Lings, and a 3rd on the way at 7:15. Not bad!

25) While we're pressuring with roaches, we can be making overlords, a 3rd queen, and drones.

26) When it's time to add gas or refill the geyser, use rallied drones AGAIN. You don't want to ever pull drones off your main 16 drone 2-per patch formation.

27) Even when building additional structures like your 2nd gas, don't pull drones off mining.

28) By 9 Minutes, we have 2 fully mineral-saturated bases (2 per patch at 2 bases, 32 drones mining minerals)

29) Main still has those 16 drones mining.

30) At 10 minutes, our macro is in over-drive. Upgrades, Lair, drones (Unless he's counter-attacking)

31) Wow...By 10:10, even though we made all those units, we're at 52 drones with a 3rd base and 4 queens, lair almost done, +1+1 on the way.

32) By 11:00, we can start our 4th and be up to 60 drones.

33) By 12:00, our infestation pit is almost done and we can be at 80+ drones, and hive on the way

34) 13:15 we have +2+2, lots of infestors and lings on the way.

35) By 14:00, we've got an incredible economy with all the tech we need on the way

36) By 15:30, we're maxed out with excellent upgrades and ultralisks on the way.

Execution

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For those who want to adopt this style of ZvT, I have numerous stream episodes of Roach/Ling tutorials and coaching lessons to help you improve timings, mechanics, execution, and transitions:
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/304624979
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/299761662
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/300152278

Summary:

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Again, thank you everyone for taking the time to read my article. In short, focus first on learning the basic food timings of the build. Next, think about the strategy/scouting techniques as well as exact in-game timings, and finally, you'll be ready to really focus on the subtle details of the 14Hatch Roach/Speedling Opening. Use these tips and you'll quickly turn what is often deemed a cheesy, all-in build into an incredibly aggressive opening with lots of room for improvement and variations. And believe me, if you practice learning a builds with these steps your overall gameplay will improve and remember that once the large-scale macro aspects of your build are perfected, you'll naturally spend more time focused on improving the smaller details.
I look forward to reading comments and answering questions below.

Feedback Poll:

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Poll: Did this guide alter your opinions of aggressive Zerg?

Yes, I see now that zerg can open aggressive and transition into macro (141)

52%

I already knew aggressive Zerg was a strong and viable option (78)

29%

No, it might work, but Zerg players that open with this style are cheesy and all-in (28)

10%

I see that there are some pros/cons to both styles, but I'll stick to the standard macro zerg (22)

8%

269 total votes

Your vote: Did this guide alter your opinions of aggressive Zerg?

(Vote): Yes, I see now that zerg can open aggressive and transition into macro
(Vote): No, it might work, but Zerg players that open with this style are cheesy and all-in
(Vote): I see that there are some pros/cons to both styles, but I'll stick to the standard macro zerg
(Vote): I already knew aggressive Zerg was a strong and viable option

- Tang

Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com

EDIT: I just want to say that all your comments and support have really meant a lot to me, thank you all very much!

DYEAlabaster

Canada1009 Posts

January 08 2012 22:06 GMT

I really like the way that you presented this. I really think that the way you wrote this up allows for low level players to just 'win', while maintaining a good idea of eventuality for higher level players. What matchup do you use this build for (I could see it being ZvP or ZvT, as switching between lings/roaches/etc is easy).

Personally, I won't be using this build very much, as it does not suite my style of play, but I will pass it along to some of the people I know in lower leagues.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 22:09 GMT

On January 09 2012 07:06 DYEAlabaster wrote:
I really like the way that you presented this. I really think that the way you wrote this up allows for low level players to just 'win', while maintaining a good idea of eventuality for higher level players. What matchup do you use this build for (I could see it being ZvP or ZvT, as switching between lings/roaches/etc is easy).

Personally, I won't be using this build very much, as it does not suite my style of play, but I will pass it along to some of the people I know in lower leagues.

Thank you very much, I use the build for ZvT but it could definitely be used in below-master ZvP (though I don't typically recommend hatch first in ZvP, you could do a very similar style).

Kruxxen

United States149 Posts

January 08 2012 22:20 GMT

I've read all your guides Tang, and I'm wondering if you will ever include anything beyond 1 base timings. At tbhis point in the meta 1 base plays are becoming less and less successful. I haven't seen any plan for a transition in your guides, are they allin gambles?

User was warned for this post

User was warned for this post

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 22:21 GMT

On January 09 2012 07:20 Soldier92 wrote:
I've read all your guides Tang, and I'm wondering if you will ever include anything beyond 1 base timings. At tbhis point in the meta 1 base plays are becoming less and less successful. I haven't seen any plan for a transition in your guides, are they allin gambles?

I'm a bit confused at where you saw the 1-base timing? This build opens with a fast expansion and recommends taking your 3rd base by 7:15. The only time I would recommend a 1-base timing would be for players learning the basics (bronze/silver).

Catgroove

Sweden67 Posts

January 08 2012 22:37 GMT

On January 09 2012 07:21 TangSC wrote:

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Yes! The best way to improve is to take the easy route, right? Don't play to win, play to get better. One base allins won't make you better (well, to some extent it will, but if you really wanna improve and improve fast you should not do it).

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 22:47 GMT

On January 09 2012 07:37 Catgroove wrote:

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I really don't see why we're discussing one-base styles, it's off-topic for the purpose of this guide.

NoisyNinja

United States991 Posts

January 08 2012 22:57 GMT

My jaw just dropped. Enough said.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 23:00 GMT

On January 09 2012 07:57 NoisyNinja wrote:
My jaw just dropped. Enough said.

TTneko

Australia70 Posts

January 08 2012 23:17 GMT

#10

Great, lets raise a generation of Zerg to cheese and all-in T_T

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 23:25 GMT

#11

On January 09 2012 08:17 TTneko wrote:
Great, lets raise a generation of Zerg to cheese and all-in T_T

Haha I understand that perspective, it seems a little strange at first. But I'm confident if I used this opening against the same terran 5 times and transition differently each time, putting me in a strong spot.

Bippzy

United States1466 Posts

January 08 2012 23:33 GMT

#12

yeah uhhhhh you kinda just said "I didn't read the post."

On topic of tang....I read all your guides and I never post...But I've now come to my conclusion. If you want to advocate builds like this, I would sincerely reccomend times when you can do the build and times when you can't.

IE: If you scout with your lings and see a bunker and a barracks with tech lab, do not do this build, rather do this. Because I can't imagine this build working always. The real skill pinnacle will be when you have a chain of all ins that only happen if you see something that sets it off. Pretty much what julyzerg tries to do.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 23:38 GMT

#13

On January 09 2012 08:33 Bippzy wrote:

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What I'm saying is that you can do effectively do this build opening in every ZvT and transition into a macro game OR all-in. I think the opening investment is actually reasonable considering you now gain map control and the freedom to drone, not to mention the chance to end the game then and there. By opening hatch first and using the map control to drone and take a 3rd, you can move into the mid-game in a comfortable position.

Flonomenalz

Nigeria3519 Posts

January 08 2012 23:40 GMT

#14

Tang, I'm going to try this right now.

However, I will say that this is never going to be executed anywhere near perfectly due to microing army, scouting, sharking, dealing with drops, etc.

How do you deal with drops with this style? You're skipping muta, so 2 medivac drops are really dangerous... when I play Ling Festor, I usually leave a festor and around 10 or so lings and 2 banes at my main, 3rd, then every base after that is mass spines. How do you deal with drops?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 08 2012 23:47 GMT

#15

On January 09 2012 08:40 Flonomenalz wrote:
Tang, I'm going to try this right now.

However, I will say that this is never going to be executed anywhere near perfectly due to microing army, scouting, sharking, dealing with drops, etc.

How do you deal with drops with this style? You're skipping muta, so 2 medivac drops are really dangerous... when I play Ling Festor, I usually leave a festor and around 10 or so lings and 2 banes at my main, 3rd, then every base after that is mass spines. How do you deal with drops?

That's a good point. You have to remember their build is going to be thrown off, at least a little, by 8 roaches and 32 lings. Drops are still a threat though, and it comes down to how fast you scout it/respond with lings. When Stephano does the ling/infestor/ultralisk style he always has a huge ling count to handle drops. Then when infestors are out, your drop/mid game push defense is a bit easier.
EDIT: Also remember those roaches you made earlier? You likely still have a few left and those can make a CRITICAL difference when marines get dropped in those closed-in spaces.

Tuczniak

1561 Posts

January 08 2012 23:54 GMT

#16

Very nice writing. The form is superb.

Souly

Austria25 Posts

January 09 2012 00:20 GMT

#17

How would you deal with (cloaked) banshees with this build? Can you just overwhelm fast banshee builds with this timing push or would you just go back and get spores because you have an macro advantage against this kind of builds?
Do you send in an overlord @¿6:00?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 09 2012 00:25 GMT

#18

On January 09 2012 09:20 Souly wrote:
How would you deal with (cloaked) banshees with this build? Can you just overwhelm fast banshee builds with this timing push or would you just go back and get spores because you have an macro advantage against this kind of builds?
Do you send in an overlord @¿6:00?

One of the interesting things about the timing attack is you generally get all the scouting information you need to know. If he's going banshee2 port banshee, all he will have to defend is a few marines and hellions. You can break a repaired supply depot with 8 roaches (faster with 2-3 lings in the front) and you're guaranteed to kill their mineral lines and maybe even force their ports to lift off after 2 banshees are out. Since you don't have a lair, immediately when you suspect banshee you start double producing queens and build an evo. Even if it turns out he doesn't have cloak or banshees, you need a total of 4 queens to play effective macro anyway - and it's just a slightly early evolution chamber, you need upgrades anyway, so doesn't hurt you too much.

Celadan

Norway471 Posts

January 09 2012 00:26 GMT

#19

I request a mutalisk macro/aggro guide :=) (mutas are more my style)
Good read though, might try it...

UmiNotsuki

United States633 Posts

January 09 2012 00:37 GMT

#20

I have to say, Tang, I'm impressed. I still disagree with the build as a whole, but this guide's focus on how to macro up and perfect your income, and especially its note on how to minimize the time it takes to reach a maxed out army, is really great.

You win.

This time.

zylog

Canada943 Posts

January 09 2012 01:50 GMT

#21

Hey, I really like how this guide is presented with both the pictures and attention to detail.

Although aggressive play is riskier and a theoretically perfect defensive player should always win via superior scouting and adaptation, in practice no one is perfect and even pro players will make mistakes. Playing the conventional passive defensive style requires and develops good scouting ability, whereas more aggressive styles require and develop good multitasking. Playing defensively means recognizing what your opponent is doing, coming up with the correct counter response; however there are many builds/variations to learn and sometimes you just die when you misread a situation. Playing aggressively makes scouting somewhat redundant as you force him to show what units he's been building, and meanwhile you need to learn to switch quickly between controlling units, making more units, spreading creep and injecting hatcheries. In addition you might have to build stuff in reaction to what you see during the attack (e.g. prepare for banshees if you see starport with techlab) in addition to everything else. Learning to multitask well in such situations can be quite valuable in terms of skill development regardless of what style you prefer.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 09 2012 03:19 GMT

#22

On January 09 2012 10:50 zylog wrote:
Hey, I really like how this guide is presented with both the pictures and attention to detail.

Although aggressive play is riskier and a theoretically perfect defensive player should always win via superior scouting and adaptation, in practice no one is perfect and even pro players will make mistakes. Playing the conventional passive defensive style requires and develops good scouting ability, whereas more aggressive styles require and develop good multitasking. Playing defensively means recognizing what your opponent is doing, coming up with the correct counter response; however there are many builds/variations to learn and sometimes you just die when you misread a situation. Playing aggressively makes scouting somewhat redundant as you force him to show what units he's been building, and meanwhile you need to learn to switch quickly between controlling units, making more units, spreading creep and injecting hatcheries. In addition you might have to build stuff in reaction to what you see during the attack (e.g. prepare for banshees if you see starport with techlab) in addition to everything else. Learning to multitask well in such situations can be quite valuable in terms of skill development regardless of what style you prefer.

Thanks zylog, I think you're right about multitasking and aggression. While macro can be a very active style if you're spreading creep, rallying overlords, producing drones/workers, spitting, AND scouting, there is generally more multitasking to do when you're putting pressure on. So I think it is fair to say this type of style will improve multitasking faster than macro, but macro will improve your ability to scout/responding.

DarKcS

Australia1237 Posts

January 09 2012 03:41 GMT

#23

Ultraisks ARE on the way, not Ultraisks is on the way. FIX IT :@ LOL.

Ascendance

United States57 Posts

January 09 2012 03:47 GMT

#24

Wow. If I were to make a guide, I would model it after yours and give you credit for it. Very user friendly, but slightly long and could use some condensing. As for the guide itself, the level of specificity it goes to is, I would hazard, only capable by those of Korean descent... lol. The bronze- platinum guides are much more realistic. Very nicely done.

chayde

United States13 Posts

January 09 2012 04:47 GMT

#25

Another fantastic write up Tang thank you for this. I think a lot of people have misconceptions that aggressive players can't macro behind their aggression and there's no thought behind aggressive builds. Posts like these really help show just because you're being aggressive that macro is still super important and gives lower players like myself specific mini concepts we can focus on while still trying to improve with our aggressive style. I also have to disagree with Ascendance. I really enjoyed how the guide was broken up with ideas for each "level". I'd love to see a write up similar to this from a ZvP standpoint.

mahO

France274 Posts

January 09 2012 08:50 GMT

#26

I think this build is actually a brillant way, at high level (well, not really high level, i mean from master to mid gm I guess) to throw a lot of terrans off.
I think it is clear that terrans are used to be safe in many circomstances in TvZ nowadays, except for some 6/8 roach early pressure vs helion opening, which can be resolved quite easily if scouted with one marauder in bunker instead of switching add ons right away.
But this timing seems quite unusual, plus it got a follow up, 7 min is the right time, one minute later it could be a huge fail I think, and before that it would be completely all in. I'll try to work on this one and master it, can be really usefull in a BO3!
And by the way, thanks for the time you devoted into the image editing etc. Good guide

P.S: pardon my english, but i'm french :p

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 09 2012 10:29 GMT

#27

On January 09 2012 13:47 chayde wrote:
Another fantastic write up Tang thank you for this. I think a lot of people have misconceptions that aggressive players can't macro behind their aggression and there's no thought behind aggressive builds. Posts like these really help show just because you're being aggressive that macro is still super important and gives lower players like myself specific mini concepts we can focus on while still trying to improve with our aggressive style. I also have to disagree with Ascendance. I really enjoyed how the guide was broken up with ideas for each "level". I'd love to see a write up similar to this from a ZvP standpoint.

There is. Well, I don't know about a write up, but here's TangSCs lesson on how to do macro-aggression versus a toss FFE:
http://tangstarcraft.com/?p=590

EndOfLineTv

United States741 Posts

January 09 2012 11:09 GMT

#28

As someone who uses a similar style as tang, I can tell you your best defense to drops (which will be the most dangerous thing vs you in the mid game) is good overlord spread.

It is VERY important to send your OL's around your mains perimeter and your "thirds" asap. Additionally, send OL early to the corners of the map, so you can watch for any sneaky drops too.

Knowelege is power, and having 16 lings having a party under drop ships will prevent most of the drops for actually occuring.

nface

106 Posts

January 09 2012 11:18 GMT

#29

You played something like this against me on Ladder and I can just say it's a terrible strategy. It is pretty much an All in too, you may have several hatcheries but your worker count is low and thus your satturation on the other bases is bad. You failed your first All in attack against me and did two more all in attacks which got weaker continuesly. Against a regular Reactor Hellion Expand build this is not viable. As a matter of fact I don't see this being viable at all except against a 1 rax gasless expand maybe or an early double expand build. So basically you're calling an All in 'Macro Aggression', I don't see how you can possibly enter a macro game with this build when not doing huge damage. You shouldn't teach people all ins, rather help them play solid macro games.

grs

Germany2339 Posts

January 09 2012 11:38 GMT

#30

Very detailed explanation; I like the step by step guides especially. I think you forgot "Start Zergling Speed" in the Step One part though.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 09 2012 11:44 GMT

#31

On January 09 2012 20:18 nface wrote:
You played something like this against me on Ladder and I can just say it's a terrible strategy. It is pretty much an All in too, you may have several hatcheries but your worker count is low and thus your satturation on the other bases is bad. You failed your first All in attack against me and did two more all in attacks which got weaker continuesly. Against a regular Reactor Hellion Expand build this is not viable. As a matter of fact I don't see this being viable at all except against a 1 rax gasless expand maybe or an early double expand build. So basically you're calling an All in 'Macro Aggression', I don't see how you can possibly enter a macro game with this build when not doing huge damage. You shouldn't teach people all ins, rather help them play solid macro games.

How is it more all-in than any big terran push? Doing a timing push will always cost the aggressor, and doing a push in itself does mean you have to do damage to gain or lose an advantage. I especially don't get why it wouldn't work against a hellion expand, roaches rofl at hellions and 8 roaches + 30 lings is way more than a bunker can hold. The terran will be forced to scout it and react, which is damage in itself, and the push will probably still do some damage. Since the Zerg still gets his third by 7 minutes, gets map control and forces the terran to build defenses, I really don't see how this differs all that much from any terran or toss timing push.

I especially have some issues with your claims that zergs should learn to play macro games instead. How? After a hellion expand, from terran, it's extremely hard to get a third since hellions take map control and a terran can easily go all-in with hellions or get dropships and put hellions in your main. The most common strategies are indeed early roaches or 2base muta, neither being much more economical than this one.

nface

106 Posts

January 09 2012 11:50 GMT

#32

Then maybe his execution was just very bad, because after I held it off I won the game, eventho it went on for another 10 minutes

EndOfLineTv

United States741 Posts

January 09 2012 13:28 GMT

#33

This counters helion expand for sure. What stops this is two rax bunker rush (or proxy 2 rax bunker rush)

Or inbase expand with 1-2 bunkers with scvs ready to repair.

They_

Japan62 Posts

January 09 2012 14:11 GMT

#34

This is a really good guide that can counter the current ZvT metagame (reactor hellions). It is really aggressive and macro-oriented at the same time by taking the third before the 8 min mark. This can be even deadlier if used by the right person. I have a question though, when do you scout for this build? Usual 13 (short) 11 (long) just to check gases?

Really solid build all around. I also think that banshees won't be out in time for this build as well. Even so, it would leave the terran with even less ground units. All in all, not only the metagame is dealt with, but also it lets you transition into a solid mid-late game play safely.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 09 2012 14:17 GMT

#35

On January 09 2012 23:11 They_ wrote:
This is a really good guide that can counter the current ZvT metagame (reactor hellions). It is really aggressive and macro-oriented at the same time by taking the third before the 8 min mark. This can be even deadlier if used by the right person. I have a question though, when do you scout for this build? Usual 13 (short) 11 (long) just to check gases?

Actually on most close-air spawns (Metal, shattered, shakuras, antiga) you can perch your overlord in vision of both the terran gas. I generally don't scout until after the expansion (usually 14 or 15 supply) because my build doesn't really deviate until after the pool finishes, regardless of what I see. If I determine it's a 2rax or bunker rush, I start the queen at my expansion only, pull a bunch of drones, and start 1-2 spines with zerglings right away. I keep making lings until I feel like I'm definitely going to get the spines finished, then switch back into drones with the same roach/ling transition planned - it'll just be delayed by however many drones I used to make spines/zerglings.

nOondn

564 Posts

January 09 2012 14:46 GMT

#36

seem similar to DRG style, very good build indeed.

mrGRAPE

Singapore293 Posts

January 09 2012 15:06 GMT

#37

Hi Tang,

I've used this a couple of times and I realised that this works pretty well against reactor hellion expand at Platinum level provided that I manage to get the hellions before running my zerglings in. A small misstep by sending in the zerglings too early can easily wipe them all out if the opponent has >4 hellions and some marines with a bunker as well. If all goes well, the Terran should lift off the command center and retreat back up his wall. At this point I think it's pretty much whether or not I have enough roaches to bust up the wall or retreat.

There were a couple of games where I misread the situation thinking that I should have enough when actually I don't have as much as I needed. I think it's important to drone up behind this attack or expand as the Terran can still turtle behind this especially if some roaches were lost in the initial push then it might not be as easy to bust up the ramp. Additionally, if the Terran had been mining gas then it's entirely possible that he was going mass hellion into a cloaked banshee all in. I find that also building an evo chamber whenever possible during larva down time while pushing can help improve chances of surviving if a banshee comes out. You never really stated a particular timing or supply for that so I do it once I hit my opponent's ramp because if he's going banshees behind that wall of hellions then it'll be very likely that his first banshee would have already been out by the time the push comes.

Olsson

Sweden931 Posts

January 09 2012 15:16 GMT

#38

On January 09 2012 08:17 TTneko wrote:
Great, lets raise a generation of Zerg to cheese and all-in T_T

How is this cheese/all-in. Terran does marine/tank pushes, 2rax, drops, hellion pokes and banshee harass, is that all-in? No.

WhiteLen

8 Posts

January 09 2012 15:32 GMT

#39

Yes, this clearly isn't all in at all. Just because he used a small push to deter his opponents doesn't mean he is risking his game. In a reactor hellion expand the terran still spends some money on hellions to harrass. Here, Tang uses 8 roaches and some lings to pressure.

nface

106 Posts

January 09 2012 15:34 GMT

#40

On January 10 2012 00:32 WhiteLen wrote:
Yes, this clearly isn't all in at all. Just because he used a small push to deter his opponents doesn't mean he is risking his game. In a reactor hellion expand the terran still spends some money on hellions to harrass. Here, Tang uses 8 roaches and some lings to pressure.

And this would be about 15 potential drones not being built, if you fail with your pressure, you're behind. Let's call it semi-all in then.

kushm4sta

United States8878 Posts

January 09 2012 15:40 GMT

#41

I don't understand what this post has to do with macro. I do not consider maximizing early game economy to rush to 28 drones as economy.
Also you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 09 2012 15:43 GMT

#42

On January 10 2012 00:40 kushm4sta wrote:
I don't understand what this post has to do with macro. I do not consider maximizing early game economy to rush to 28 drones as economy.
Also you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about.

Maximizing early game economy is an extremely important part of macro. Please review "Step 3" - there's an example replay as well as pictures/analysis to show how you can open with the roach/ling and still move into a maxed army by 15:30.

eloist

United States1017 Posts

January 09 2012 15:47 GMT

#43

I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they?

Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 09 2012 15:57 GMT

#44

On January 10 2012 00:47 eloist wrote:
I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they?

Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones.

He already states in the guide that the roaches obviously won't come out before the initial hellions, there's NO possible way to have roaches at that point without doing severe cuts to your economy. The first hellions have to be held back by queens and spines and possibly lings, there's no alternative.

mrGRAPE

Singapore293 Posts

January 09 2012 16:12 GMT

#45

You can try building a spine crawler at your natural close to the ramp preferably if you see hellions coming out from your opponent base with that scouting ling you had at his ramp. Sometimes this coincides perfectly with particular points in your build like if he goes for fast dual hellion harass, you can cut speed and instead spend that 100 minerals on the spine. Other times it doesn't coincide so well and I find that simply just blocking the ramp should do just fine. You don't absolutely have to build a spine crawler unless it's really early or there's more than hellions coming and your Terran buddy's going for early hellion / ling pressure.

It is also important that you put a tumor down in your base so you can link the creep from your main to your natural so that roaches can get there faster.

Asolmanx

Italy141 Posts

January 09 2012 16:32 GMT

#46

I usually drone scout at 13 vs terran, and check if they go gas first. If they do, they are probably going for fast hellions or fast banshees, or any sort of crazy teching. If they aren't, i get the drone out before they wall it in, and check their ramp around 4:00 to check if there's a reactor on the barraks. I think that if you spot a reactor, you are assured to do damage with this build if your macro and micro is good enough.
You might not come out terribly ahead, you might even be behind after the push, but still you won't be anything close to game changing

Jitsu

United States929 Posts

January 09 2012 18:13 GMT

#47

Just did this opening vs. a Protoss. I outright won the game. I think there are a few points to come across with this.

First, you still have to look at the Zerg race a race that has the ability to change itself on a whim if need be. I think the biggest point to this is the way Zerg's learn how to play their race at the lower levels (build drones until you need to build units).

If the Protoss blocks you're expansion with a Pylon, you still have the ability to throw down a gas/pool before Hatch, which theoretically will work just as well. You might be a little late getting units out because of the lack of extra larvae production, but it's still feasible to pull early aggression off in this way.

Second, I think while this build is primarily used for ZvT, the general idea behind it can be associated to any matchup. I think the most important thing to realize is what timing you want to attack and what advantages you want to have at that time. It's important to note that, at any moment, Zerg can completely switch from building workers to building an army, and visa versa. That's why I think it's feasable for Zerg's to push pressure on without the particular attack being labeled an "all-in." Each race has the ability to produce an army quickly, given enough production facilities, but Zerg has the unique ability to completely saturate a base with workers quicker than the other two. I think the most important aspect of Zerg early pressure isn't necessarily how much damage you do onto you're opponent, it's more important to know when it's the right time to pull back - doing damage is good, but not wasting you're units is much better.

~Jitsu

vahgar.r24

India465 Posts

January 09 2012 18:18 GMT

#48

Nice guide the pics are very useful , but would nice to see it being used against helion harass/2 rax pressure..

BowzerOG

1 Post

January 09 2012 18:39 GMT

#49

Thanks alot for another great guide Tang. I've been using the 3 stage timing attacks strategy on your website and have gotten to the point where i literally win +90% of my league games as zerg (I just started playing a few weeks ago and am in silver league)

I'm going to learn the other races before moving out of silver league and then revisit all your zerg guides most likely.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 09 2012 20:15 GMT

#50

On January 10 2012 01:32 Asolmanx wrote:
You might not come out terribly ahead, you might even be behind after the push, but still you won't be anything close to game changing

That's exactly it. It gives you a CHANCE to win the game, and a chance to put on pressure. There are VERY few circumstances where you will get 8 roaches to the terran base at 7:15 and do no damage - especially if you have zerglings as well. If they've taken an expansion, it's almost guaranteed that they will have to lift off for a while. At the same time, you're droning, teching, taking a 3rd and preparing for the mid-late game while terran's still focused on getting the units/tech they need to push down their own ramp.

Also, just with the way the metagame is, terran players are so used to being the aggressor early. These types of timing attacks can throw the terran player of their timings for the remainder of the game. They may forget upgrades, time their 3rd and additional structures poorly, etc. They may even interpret your aggression as an all-in and choose a course of actions that puts them behind you in a macro game.

They might think "This guy just tried to all-in me and failed, I'm going to do an improvised hellion/marine push and end it". Then they push out and are surprised to find out you have 3 hatcheries with a solid economy to pump out a sturdy roach/ling defense (which gives you ANOTHER opportunity to be aggressive once you kill their push).

1A.Browbeat

Canada26 Posts

January 09 2012 20:30 GMT

#51

I really really like this build. I have been struggling to get into masters mostly because my ZvT was extremely weak. I am a zerg player who always favors low gas, high eco openings and it was giving me a lot of trouble vs terrran. I was switching things up, getting earlier gas, banelings, a quicker lair etc... I saw some improvement but still i was losing the longer games because 3-3 marines counter everything.

This is exactly the type of build I was looking for, because it has allowed me to take map control and momentum in the earlier part of the game when 6 hellions or so are usually denying me complete map vision.

well done. and thanks.

shadowxi

Australia2 Posts

January 09 2012 20:53 GMT

#52

+1

Good read.

rustypipe

Canada206 Posts

January 09 2012 21:04 GMT

#53

Working on getting some replays posted of it working out well and of counters of it but the place where I usally post sc2replayed.com is broken and wouldn't let me post the replays. Still working on it, i'll post as soon as I get a site that will upload the replays

NaumNaumers2

4 Posts

January 09 2012 21:42 GMT

#54

It's an interesting read; very clear and concise in what it is trying to explain. I'll be practicing this and experimenting with it in Platinum in the upcoming weeks.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 09 2012 22:14 GMT

#55

On January 10 2012 06:04 rustypipe wrote:
Working on getting some replays posted of it working out well and of counters of it but the place where I usally post sc2replayed.com is broken and wouldn't let me post the replays. Still working on it, i'll post as soon as I get a site that will upload the replays

I'm working on allowing replay uploads on my website, that way anytime I post a strategy guide users can submit their own replays showing the strengths/weaknesses of the style. I use drop.sc, it's fast and easy. Then I just post the link and others can download the replay.

DojoJoe

Canada28 Posts

January 09 2012 23:08 GMT

#56

Hey Tang, great guide! Just a quick fix on the OP. Step 32 of the guide says "By 11:00, we can start our 3rd and be up to 60 drones", should read 4th. I was also hoping you could get into a bit more detail from 7:15 onwards. I feel very comfortable up until that point by virtue of the level of detail given in the guide. I'd be curious to know the relative timings of when you get gas again, or put up those two evo chambers and your infestation pit. Say Terran hits back and delays the infestation pit past 11 minutes, what's it tied to strategy wise? Thanks again!

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

January 10 2012 00:15 GMT

#57

wow, value post. well done, tang :D

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 10 2012 05:26 GMT

#58

On January 10 2012 08:08 DojoJoe wrote:
Hey Tang, great guide! Just a quick fix on the OP. Step 32 of the guide says "By 11:00, we can start our 3rd and be up to 60 drones", should read 4th. I was also hoping you could get into a bit more detail from 7:15 onwards. I feel very comfortable up until that point by virtue of the level of detail given in the guide. I'd be curious to know the relative timings of when you get gas again, or put up those two evo chambers and your infestation pit. Say Terran hits back and delays the infestation pit past 11 minutes, what's it tied to strategy wise? Thanks again!

Updated, thanks.

There are a lot of options at the 7:15 mark, the infestor/ling/ultra transition was just one example. If you want to be relentless, you could leave drones in gas and just attack again with banelings too and "really" all-in. But if you do decide to play defensive/macro and you take your 3rd at 7:15, you should have some units left over and decent creep spread and map control/vision. Despite how the early game developed, you want to try to approach this as a standard mid-game. So after your first push, if you aren't 100% sure what your opponent is doing, you should be using all the scouting tactics you normally would (i.e. use your speedlings to scout the terran unit composition at his expansion, perhaps sac an overlord.

In your scouting, you should be able to determine if he's going to push you or not and also whether he's going mech, marine-tank, or something goofy. Then, as soon as you see terran pushout, you have 3 hatcheries with 3 queens. Provided you aren't supply blocked and keep up with your larva injects, you have the ability to mass speedlings and any terran player will tell you it's pretty difficult to kill mass-ling styles with mid-game pushes.

In terms of gas timings, generally you want to refill your gas shortly after you take a 3rd and start periodically adding gas as you approach perfect mineral saturation at your expansion (your main should be fully saturated already). In theory, you could do a spanishiwa-like style, it's really a matter of preference. Also, I think a lot of people don't realize that just because you build your geyser doesn't mean you have to mine the gas. There have been times where I start my extractors, they finish, and a terran timing push comes forcing me to build a lot of lings. It's a situation where I expected to be able to drone and afford to fill the gas with optimal mineral saturation, but because I wasn't able to produce those drones, I don't fill up the gas because the mineral saturation is more important in the early stages if you're doing a macro/mass-ling style.

gautamvirk86

India55 Posts

January 10 2012 06:28 GMT

#59

Mr Tang,

I love your build and it has helped me a lot in my Z v T, which "used" to be my weakest matchup, and please just ignore the haters, "cuz haters gonna hate".
These are the same people who do 2 rax builds and cloak banshee builds and consider "8 roach 32 speedling" a CHEESE
its all double standard
They just expect zerg to just roll over and die and now that we have a complete counter build to any healion build or a banshee build they come back and call u a cheeser and 1 base all in'er, even thought you clearly open with an FE....i am starting to think people don't even bother reading what you post, but they just scroll down and call u a cheese master.

Nothing but love for you Tang, next time if i am passing by your town, i'll buy you a coffee

(ignore bad grammar )

NoSlack

United States112 Posts

January 10 2012 06:31 GMT

#60

Thanks for taking the time to put this together. As far as the haters, they appear to all be terran.

ChOmpChOmp

United States14 Posts

January 10 2012 07:39 GMT

#61

Absolutely loved this guide. I am a very passive, reactive zerg player and typically don't start becoming aggressive until I have mutas. I need to learn to be more aggressive with roaches so I found that this guide will not only help me with a nuanced timing against terran, it will also help me with my roach play all-around for the rest of my matchups.

Also loved the breakdown of the macro mechanics and drone control in maximizing the potential of this timing and zerg play in general.

A lot to be learned here

ChOmpChOmp

United States14 Posts

January 10 2012 07:42 GMT

#62

Could you possibly go into some of your goals, control, and focus of the actual attack? I am unfamiliar with the roach/ling style.

ELYSiUMlol

United States89 Posts

January 10 2012 08:33 GMT

#63

I've always felt similarly as far as the term "allin" goes. You're not necessarily behind when you make units early game; I don't see why you HAVE to constantly be far ahead in worker count. My favorite part of this opener is that even if you don't outright win or do a tremendous amount of damage, you either force marauders, take mining time, force bunkers, and generally don't allow them to be as greedy, which makes up for the fact that you're not droning wildly.

Something I wanted to ask was your images depicting a macro transition out of the build. It seems like you droned and teched like an absolute madman after your pressure. Is that a typical follow up just because you don't really have to worry about a counter after you attack, or do you usually follow up this way?

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

January 10 2012 13:13 GMT

#64

The problem I always had with playing defensively as Zerg playing against P and T was always the fact that there are ridiculous powerful 2base builds for P and T and if you don't throw them off in their build and they trained it to near-perfection (which isn't all too difiicult if you can't be harrassed), you are basically hit with a grandmaster build at plat level.

If you do throw them off and are good at multitasking, throwing them off does far more damage to them than real numbers can tell, because they won't know what to do at which point (when do I have to build the extra factory now ... because I had to overproduce units and bunkers and it's two minutes later and I'm floating minerals and....?).

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 10 2012 14:33 GMT

#65

On January 10 2012 17:33 ELYSiUMlol wrote:
Something I wanted to ask was your images depicting a macro transition out of the build. It seems like you droned and teched like an absolute madman after your pressure. Is that a typical follow up just because you don't really have to worry about a counter after you attack, or do you usually follow up this way?

Generally, you wouldn't be able to max out as fast as the macro-lesson showcases. Most terran players will make a push or drop in the mid game (before infestors) and for that you need to have a decent zergling count. You can periodically add on a few lings here and there to stay safe, and they aren't useless if you aren't attacked because you can break rocks/scout/hold xel/etc (Think Stephano's ZvT) and then when you see a push just mash the 4sz. I always try to keep a considerable army on the field against terran, because if they push out I'm not the kind of player who wants to barely hold their attack to secure a macro advantage - I'm the kind of player who wants to demolish it and counter attack immediately.

ExodusHydrA

58 Posts

January 10 2012 15:54 GMT

#66

Great write up!
I used to be a really passive Zerg player, but this feels like a pretty good build to get started with agressive Zerg openers. I do wonder how you would transition into ling baneling muta from the roach ling timing attack, I'd say after you take your third, plop down 3 drones back in gas, get lair, get all extractors, something like that? Would still love to see some more specific timings on that, as I feel it could make a Terran feel pretty cornered to have a roach ling push come early and screw them over, only to seal the deal with mutas, would give not only great map control, but a psychological aspect to your game too.

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

January 10 2012 16:52 GMT

#67

As mentioned, even if you do NO damage whatsoever, the terran will not be able to take his expansion until siege mode is up. This is HUGE. AND you know his tech, you know you can drone like 100% behind this and not have to think about "well, what about these 4 hellions at the bottom of my ramp suddenly become 12 blueflame hellions?".

In addition, when the midgame push (which will be delayed) will finally come, it's a huge difference if you start making your army from close to 0 and maybe just have made another round of drones, or if you start from the remainders of your first push, having around 6 roaches and 25 lings already. This is a great safety net.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 10 2012 17:04 GMT

#68

On January 11 2012 00:54 ExodusHydrA wrote:
Great write up!
I used to be a really passive Zerg player, but this feels like a pretty good build to get started with agressive Zerg openers. I do wonder how you would transition into ling baneling muta from the roach ling timing attack, I'd say after you take your third, plop down 3 drones back in gas, get lair, get all extractors, something like that? Would still love to see some more specific timings on that, as I feel it could make a Terran feel pretty cornered to have a roach ling push come early and screw them over, only to seal the deal with mutas, would give not only great map control, but a psychological aspect to your game too.

Yeah that's basically it. Start your 3rd and start droning while you do your push, take gases/lair before you start bane nest / evo. Start your spire as soon as lair is done (by the time you start spire, you should have 4 gases). It's not my preferred option, I'm a big fan of roach/ling/bane or mass upgraded ling/infestor but it's definitely viable to go into muta.

pulpSC

United States31 Posts

January 10 2012 20:39 GMT

#69

So, this is a build that is pretty much all-in? Because even though you call it a 'macro' agression, if you lose your whole army after attacking the Terran...they pretty much win. Thoughts?

PS: If your goal is to be doing a big attack so early, why even add the second hatchery? Like I said, if you lose your army...you lose the game essentially. So why not just save yourself the minerals and time and attack earlier with a bigger army?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 10 2012 20:42 GMT

#70

On January 11 2012 05:39 pulpSC wrote:
So, this is a build that is pretty much all-in? Because even though you call it a 'macro' agression, if you lose your whole army after attacking the Terran...they pretty much win. Thoughts?

I see what you mean, but It's pretty hard to have that large of an army and get shut down outright. They'd need to have tanks sieged up on the high ground and have bunkers with depots in front. In that situation, it's pretty obvious the correct move is to retreat and not lose everything by pushing up the ramp. You're almost always going to get a decent exchange on your units if you engage, just due to the size and strength of the roach/ling composition.

llKenZyll

United States853 Posts

January 10 2012 20:42 GMT

#71

Hi Tang, its KenZy

Instead of bashing this thread, I will say its really good because I spent about 20 minutes trying to find something wrong with it but I guess you're so damn good. Nice to see variety in your guides, ty.

XRaDiiX

Canada1730 Posts

January 10 2012 21:18 GMT

#72

Why send the first 2 drones to empty mineral patches? You can send them to the closest mineral patch to their egg. If you know how to time it. You just have to right click the drone so it doesn't transfer all the way to the farther mineral patches.

You have to time it so that the as the drone is popping out of its egg is when the other drone is just getting to one of their (close) mineral patches (send it to that one) (The mineral patch where the drone just arrived when the egg pops)

JoeAWESOME

Sweden1080 Posts

January 10 2012 21:24 GMT

#73

Gonna read it troug when I have time

Looks good so far! Not like your other "guides" were you have a wall of text about yourself and then there's a small guide on how to Baneling bust

This looks a lot more promesing!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 10 2012 22:29 GMT

#74

On January 11 2012 06:24 JoeAWESOME wrote:
Gonna read it troug when I have time

Looks good so far! Not like your other "guides" were you have a wall of text about yourself and then there's a small guide on how to Baneling bust

This looks a lot more promesing!

Haha well I do stand by my Baneling response to the 2rax and still do it occasionally in ladder, it's actually a pretty strong response (but it is also one of the most all-in responses).

GleaM

United States207 Posts

January 10 2012 22:47 GMT

#75

Here's the thing. I'm a high masters protoss player but I have a lot of knowledge about the game from all 3 races.

On Metal and Antiga, I play a lot of people that go for a 6pool and then just gogogo right to the gold. It works very well DEPENDING ON THE OPENING THAT I USE. It's very coin-flippy. As is this first attack. I have a practice partner that does something similar (I also play Terran at a master's level.) And there are a lot of holes in the build, midgame timings and such that can catch builds like this with its pants down when the earlygame timing comes and does minimal damage. In order to hit your "max ling infestor ultra w upps at 15:30" you need to cut an insane amount of corners.

Manimal_pro

Romania991 Posts

January 10 2012 23:06 GMT

#76

first of all? NO REPLAY?

2. you know that no spine crawler at the natural and no zerglings reeks of roach pressure right ?

3. bunkers at the choke and keeping your orbital on your main takes a huge dump on your build

4. this is not a good way to get better, using gamble builds you will hit a wall at some point on the ladder

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 10 2012 23:08 GMT

#77

On January 11 2012 07:47 GleaM wrote:
Here's the thing. I'm a high masters protoss player but I have a lot of knowledge about the game from all 3 races.

On Metal and Antiga, I play a lot of people that go for a 6pool and then just gogogo right to the gold. It works very well DEPENDING ON THE OPENING THAT I USE. It's very coin-flippy. As is this first attack. I have a practice partner that does something similar (I also play Terran at a master's level.) And there are a lot of holes in the build, midgame timings and such that can catch builds like this with its pants down when the earlygame timing comes and does minimal damage. In order to hit your "max ling infestor ultra w upps at 15:30" you need to cut an insane amount of corners.

You're absolutely right. In a real ladder game, I would almost never drone consistently to 15:30 - it's pretty suicidal, I just used that game to illustrate the point. In terms of handling counter-pressure, you'd be surprised how well-equipped you are to deal with midgame terran pushes. You'll usually have a few roaches and lings over, and 3 hatch/queen can produce an insane amount of Zerglings. At this stage in the game, active scouting and map vision are crucial so that you can immediately start building units when you see a move-out but you can hold most any timing attack assuming your macro after your roaches/lings

As a reference, check out this game I played against a top-master terran on EU. He opened super-economical, getting 2 Command centers extremely early. I take my 3rd while I attack, and while I do virtually no damage, I'm able to keep even with a 3base terran and eventually win with maxed out ling/infestor/ultra: http://drop.sc/85214.

GleaM

United States207 Posts

January 10 2012 23:34 GMT

#78

On January 11 2012 08:08 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Watching replay:

10:40 - 3 base to 3 base, 42 scvs (+3 orbitals of mule) to 40 drones with lings on the way
11:45 - You don't have any knowledge of infrastructure; you only see a rax and a fact. If he had decided to get stim + combat shields a bit more aggressively, (which really wouldn't have cut his units too much imo) and pushed with 4 tank 6 hellion 24 stim + CS rines, you'd be in huuge trouble because all you have is mass ling with no bling nest.
Idk... I don't wanna analyze / bash your play, but you have to admit that if the terran didn't let you sit and if he wasn't extremely passive, you would never have been able to catch up in drone count. From 50 drones, if he had pushed, you would not have been allowed to make any more drones if you were playing someone less passive. I don't know bro, do you see what I'm saying?
Not to mention his terrible scouting and decisionmaking... massing turret vs a no spire Zerg.

Fishriot

United States621 Posts

January 10 2012 23:47 GMT

#79

Great read man! If I weren't in the process of moving, I would have booted up SC2 and tried this guide out earlier today! I've always enjoyed playing an aggressive Zerg style but it's nice to have someone who knows what they're talking about to base my play on haha.

XRaDiiX

Canada1730 Posts

January 10 2012 23:56 GMT

#80

I love you tang. I've done similar things vs Terran (mid-master) and you can deny their natural until they get siege mode.

One good tactic is if you see Terran going early CC with ovie scout or many bad Terrans do it near the ramp where you can see it.

Doing a 2 base baneling/speedling bust is viable and not all in against a Terran going early 2nd base just make sure you have enough banelings to break the wall and speedlings rallied in to occupy marines hellions while the banelings go straight for the mineral line. Send half the banelings on the other side of the CC to trap he fleeing scv's.

I usually don't go roach in ZvT at all unless I'm doing an all in but il definitely give your build a try thanks for this.

Although your stuff seems solid I generally hate going roach in ZvT unless Terran is meching

When I do 2 base banelings busts vs a quick CC Terran I also throw the 3rd down after I've made a satisfactory amount of lings

And you don't even have to kill them just get the scv line with the banelings and even if they survive. It's an easy win from there.

Disarm22

United States151 Posts

January 11 2012 00:05 GMT

#81

i dont understand why people are arguing that this is a one base timing. the guide clearly teaches you how to macro as well as play aggressive. I think having a game plan is the best way to improve and perfect your play. Can't wait to try this out.

zoohairZ

Canada254 Posts

January 11 2012 00:33 GMT

#82

Tang, this is coming from me. Im notorious for cheesing almost everyone on the ladder at the GM level. Stop posting crap. Your builds are all either cheesy or all-in (i should know), so stop making threads with misleading titles. You're gonna divert the lower league players who should really be practicing legit standard macro mechanics into people who rely on cheesing and all inning. This may sound hypocritical but the only times i ever cheese is on ladder, i can play a standard macro game too and still beat top level players. Ive got replays to prove it if anyone doesnt believe me either. There is indeed a playstyle that consists of a zerg being aggressive, but this is not it. So stop posting crap.

User was warned for this post

hysterial

United States2044 Posts

January 11 2012 00:39 GMT

#83

I hate how this is called macro-agression. I understand the build, I understand the follow-up, and the implications of both. However this is not MACRO based play in the slightest. This is more win the game early and hold onto a massive lead for a 100% guaranteed win. The guide is very descriptive and informative, I just worry that this style of play will set up a lot of zergs for failure as they start to get players who are able to actually defend this push.

lorestarcraft

United States1049 Posts

January 11 2012 00:42 GMT

#84

On January 09 2012 07:37 Catgroove wrote:

Show nested quote +

That is not correct, I four gated until I got to Platinum, then I abruptly stopped because it stopped working. I did teach me mechanics and micro, now I am high in Diamond and I never do any all-ins.

Funnyguy17

United States1 Post

January 11 2012 02:10 GMT

#85

Thank you Tang, This post just got me back into the game. I never really cared about builds I just made stuff but that has all changed now :D.

HelixDnB

United States34 Posts

January 11 2012 02:14 GMT

#86

Tang - what do you do vs banshee openings with this? Just stop the attack, defend, and then attack again later when you're able to?

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

January 11 2012 02:37 GMT

#87

On January 11 2012 09:33 zoohairz wrote:
Tang, this is coming from me. Im notorious for cheesing almost everyone on the ladder at the GM level. Stop posting crap. Your builds are all either cheesy or all-in (i should know), so stop making threads with misleading titles. You're gonna divert the lower league players who should really be practicing legit standard macro mechanics into people who rely on cheesing and all inning. This may sound hypocritical but the only times i ever cheese is on ladder, i can play a standard macro game too and still beat top level players. Ive got replays to prove it if anyone doesnt believe me either. There is indeed a playstyle that consists of a zerg being aggressive, but this is not it. So stop posting crap.

can we please clear the forums of ultratrolls like these, bragging about GM, saying he cheeses all the time, but he can macro as well and is ready to show it? How is this contributing to anything really?

Where is all the hate coming from, anyway? Ts that hate to stop macroing like a boss behind his 4 hellions?

zoohairZ

Canada254 Posts

January 11 2012 04:17 GMT

#88

On January 11 2012 11:37 Morghaine wrote:

Show nested quote +

You have problems way beyond your ability to comprehend the context of a post. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was bragging about anything at all.

NoSlack

United States112 Posts

January 11 2012 04:40 GMT

#89

On January 11 2012 13:17 zoohairz wrote:

Show nested quote +

You have problems way beyond your ability to comprehend the context of a post. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was bragging about anything at all.

Umm....

On January 11 2012 09:33 zoohairz wrote:
Tang, this is coming from me. Im notorious for cheesing almost everyone on the ladder at the GM level. ...
...
i can play a standard macro game too and still beat top level players. Ive got replays to prove it if anyone doesnt believe me either.
...

Sounds like bragging to me... This build will work to a certain level on the ladder. Those masters players probably don't need it, but players like me appreciate the build and it's really got my gears turning in my head. I'm deployed in Afghanistan so I can't ladder because the internet is too slow, but doing it vs the AI is good for practice for when I get back. Usually I just build stuff that I think I need with no real structure or timings.

zoohairz I'd be happy to see your guide so I can learn some stuff from it as well. Thanks in advance!

zoohairZ

Canada254 Posts

January 11 2012 04:50 GMT

#90

i was just providing credibility to my post, not bragging.
edit: i dont do guides, but i do coach, and it doesnt involve teaching people how to all in. GET AT ME.
(yes, im being sarcastic.)

Belial88

United States5217 Posts

January 11 2012 05:07 GMT

#91

^ I'm pretty sure everything Tang writes are just guides for bronze to platinum. He makes it pretty clear that none of this is really viable at the top level of play. I think what people really just need to take away from his guides - if I may be so presumptuous as to speak to his intentions - is to get a build down solidly (remember the guy who 6 pooled to GM? He wasn't great, but he is the best 6 pooler around), have a direction in your play, and just macro well and learn to make good decisions.

I mean... I'm very certain that at masters+, maybe even diamond nowadays, the DRG style 28 supply roach warren 8-12 roach pressure vs reactor/bf hellion expands, just does not work at all anymore. Terrans realize they can just make a single bunker/marauder/tank, terrans no longer make 10+ hellions from reactor hellion expand (rarely I even see more than 4) and use decent micro, as well as be macro'ing half decently so they don't fall behind or die when they shouldn't. But at bronze, learning what map control means, and why you can take a third so early when you have map control while otherwise you always feel so unsafe, is a great way to improve your game.

Like he says in the bronze section make 4 lings. That's suicide to make that many, often times even just opening with 2 is too many. But at bronze, you probably need to be told "dont be making more than 4 lings" rather than "only make 2". This is clearly a lower level guide.

I mean... I wouldn't write guides that aren't viable at masters (ie when people macro normally), but the guy is helping people so he's not doing anything wrong. Plus I think he's sort of promoting his coaching stuff, and giving lots of feedback to lower level players. Not everyone is diamond like us bro

edit: why are there two guides by this guy of the exact same build?

snexwang

Australia224 Posts

January 11 2012 06:06 GMT

#92

why are there two guides by this guy of the exact same build?

I think, to begin with, he was using that build as an example in his overall guide... but then it seems like it became entirely focused on the build, whether intentional or not.

whoopingchow

United States293 Posts

January 11 2012 06:12 GMT

#93

I'm terran, and I'm just wondering. How do you defend against this? Obviously, siege mode is going to be key, but with 8 roaches at the top of my ramp at 7:15, I may only have a single siege tank sieged up, and if I try to push anytime around that and my units are caught in the open, 32 speedlings are just going to eat through everything. Fast banshees? If I want to get siege tech and banshees, that's going to delay my expansion by a huge amount that I'm just not that comfortable with. Any advice?

stakiman

Bulgaria42 Posts

January 11 2012 06:23 GMT

#94

Thanks for this guide, i learned one thing from it, but it was still worth it! - "Don't pull drones off mining!"

Thanks, master player here.

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

January 11 2012 06:26 GMT

#95

TL hates on the cheese.

Good build Tang, thanks for the post.

Unfortunately, the western scene considers themselves too good for aggression before the 10 minute mark.

That kind of stuff is for scrubs, not people who... you know... like winning...

Stupid cheese...

...

:|

mrGRAPE

Singapore293 Posts

January 11 2012 06:28 GMT

#96

On January 11 2012 15:12 whoopingchow wrote:
I'm terran, and I'm just wondering. How do you defend against this? Obviously, siege mode is going to be key, but with 8 roaches at the top of my ramp at 7:15, I may only have a single siege tank sieged up, and if I try to push anytime around that and my units are caught in the open, 32 speedlings are just going to eat through everything. Fast banshees? If I want to get siege tech and banshees, that's going to delay my expansion by a huge amount that I'm just not that comfortable with. Any advice?

So far from my experience on the ladder ~Plat level, this push can be scouted for an pre-empted if you poked up with like a marine and find very little lings at his natural. Scan, build a tech lab immediately and a bunker if you're anticipating that the push will be coming and just hold at your ramp. You don't necessarily need siege mode to hold this off. I've played a Terran who held this off even though I broke his wall and killed one supply depot off. He just planted two marauders behind those depots and with pure marine/tank dps managed to repel my attack.

Like I said before, this works well against a reactor hellion expand. If you're going 1/1/1 you can hold this off long enough for the Zerg to realize that it's not worth the push up the ramp.

NoSlack

United States112 Posts

January 11 2012 06:35 GMT

#97

mrGRAPE when using this on the ladder and getting stopped were you behind in the game? Did you win?

mrGRAPE

Singapore293 Posts

January 11 2012 06:58 GMT

#98

On January 11 2012 15:35 NoSlack wrote:
mrGRAPE when using this on the ladder and getting stopped were you behind in the game? Did you win?

That depends.

I've honestly won just about as much as I lost, though I think the deciding factor was what both of us were doing during and after the push. Sometimes I lose a little too many roaches and decide to make more in preparation for a counter attack that never came, so I fell behind in economy therefore losing to a mid-late game push. Other times I *think* I'm in a better position in terms of army count and try to get a little greedy by expanding / droning hard during the push only to get rolled over by a 1/1/1 with cloaked banshee timing attack.

So... in terms of getting stopped by the Terran player and still winning the game, I think it mostly came down to reading my opponent correctly - whether he was going to play passive as the initial pressure, and whether or not he was going to counter attack soon after the push. Once I have established the correct response from my opponent, then I'd be able to do whatever I need to get ahead - take a 3rd, more spines/roaches, lair tech mutas etc

In other times, I completely get caught off guard by early banshees - I never seem to be able to get an evo chamber / spores just soon enough to hold it off. Usually one or two queens would get killed and that would set me back quite a bit.

Pugsly

United States50 Posts

January 11 2012 07:09 GMT

#99

I'm sorry in advance, but I'm going to have to bring up a reference from Destiny in regards to drone splitting. How many time, in any tournament, ladder, or custom game, where you look back on your play and you go "damn, if I had only split my drones at the beginning of the game. I understand the fact that it keeps your fingers moving and what not. However, players in gold/plat should rather work on their macro/mechanics, as that is what everyone player should do before going out and trying to learn builds.

COLDbear

United States39 Posts

January 11 2012 07:16 GMT

#100

Thanks a lot for such an in depth guide. Although I am not a primary Zerg user, I still find this to be useful.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 11 2012 08:33 GMT

#101

I'm in a similar position as mrGRAPE. I haven't used it too much on ladder yet (still perfecting it vs GTAI and people from practice groups), but I definitely feel that if the opponent has early banshees, it feels flimsy. If his banshees ignore your attack, while he will take massive damage, you won't be able to get spores in time, so it becomes sort of a base race. I'd say in this position one should just cancel third, build drones and queens and simply try to get spores up, a few banshees wont kill you but 8 roaches and 30 lings uncontested will kill him. If he defends with the banshees though, I feel it's difficult. While you can definitely get spores up in main and nat, it's not guaranteed that you'll be able to get spores at your third in time. The other problem is that your army will be 100% cleaned up and you will probably not do all that much damage, you just delay his banshee attack, so you feel very weak. You might get spores out and even at your third, but you don't really dare to drone since you lose map control and army and he can just follow it up with an early push. ATM I don't really know how one best reacts in this case... I guess hardcore droning + spines is the way to go until you have some halfway decent saturation at your third.

kybarnet

United States8 Posts

January 11 2012 08:48 GMT

#102

As to the build this is what I have to say:

1) 16 drones per min patch (2 per patch). Some say 3 for far patches is more optimal, but for Z in general (unless you are doing a two base timing) would you say no more than 16?

2) ALWAYS build structures, mine gas, with new morphed drones (rather than pull and replace). Honestly I could imagine that over time that this creates a lot of econ efficiency. Personally I tend to mass pull, then mass redrone, not really caring if I'm at 16 or 22.

3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)?

I think those things are pretty solid advice.

mrGRAPE

Singapore293 Posts

January 11 2012 10:02 GMT

#103

On January 11 2012 17:48 kybarnet wrote:
Why is this stickied? Wasn't this guy banned / caught making several accounts so that he could bump his own threads?

As to the build this is what I have to say:

1) 16 drones per min patch (2 per patch). Some say 3 for far patches is more optimal, but for Z in general (unless you are doing a two base timing) would you say no more than 16?

2) ALWAYS build structures, mine gas, with new morphed drones (rather than pull and replace). Honestly I could imagine that over time that this creates a lot of econ efficiency. Personally I tend to mass pull, then mass redrone, not really caring if I'm at 16 or 22.

3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)?

I think those things are pretty solid advice.

1) I'm going to say 2 per close mineral patch and 3 per far patch if you want. Honestly don't see much difference although I keep extra drones on my mineral patches in case I have to build structures right at that moment.

2) I found that the timings line up quite nicely up till 60 supply - you'll almost always have a drone that's just about done when you're supposed to be building something or putting into gas. After that, my build diverges away from TangSC's so I don't follow as strict. You're right though, mass pulling gets whatever you need to be done (and quicker). Sometimes I just can't wait for that drone to finish spawning.

3) I wait till my natural is just about saturated before taking my 3rd if it helps. The opponent will almost always have mules to back up his mineral eco. The difference is if he's using mules to fund his eco, he's not going to be using scans to see if you're building a third (imo), so it's still safe to expand but only when you're decently saturated enough on the natural. Also, I think people make the mistake of taking all 4 geysers too early, putting hurt on their mineral intake. You only really need those 4 geysers if you have decent saturation and are already going lair. No point getting 4 gas geysers but not having enough drones to mine at those geysers + minerals imo.

My 2 cents.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 11 2012 10:58 GMT

#104

On January 11 2012 17:48 kybarnet wrote:3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)?

IMO, it works out perfectly. See, you take your third as you are pushing, and then immediately start to mass drones. What you should find is that as your attack is done, your third is just about to pop, and you already have decent saturation in your nat. If you saturate then start your third, you're more or less just gimping your production capabilities, since you won't have enough larva. The earlier you can get the third up and get creep around it, the better since that will let you plop down spores and spines in time.

I personally don't see a problem with starting a third even if you're severely undersaturated on your nat, it's the same thing you do in ZvP if toss goes FFE.

Sogetsu

514 Posts

January 11 2012 11:30 GMT

#105

The problem with your concept of "learning to play" is this:

Most players, if they see their builds giving them a victory (that they copy from guides obviously), the majority will choose to not understand the game, they will instead copy more and more builds, and take the wins without understanding what is going on

Both things should be complemented, and many people take only one of them, while taking the Build instead Understanding is better because you can easily win, but at some point they will be under water

Skill =/= Knowledge
Build =/= Mechanics
Winning =/= Understanding the game

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 11 2012 11:41 GMT

#106

On January 11 2012 20:30 Sogetsu wrote:
The problem with your concept of "learning to play" is this:

Most players, if they see their builds giving them a victory (that they copy from guides obviously), the majority will choose to not understand the game, they will instead copy more and more builds, and take the wins without understanding what is going on

Both things should be complemented, and many people take only one of them, while taking the Build instead Understanding is better because you can easily win, but at some point they will be under water

Skill =/= Knowledge
Build =/= Mechanics
Winning =/= Understanding the game

There are already guides on understanding the matchups. This is a guide to a specific ZvT build. If a player just wants to learn a build, that's up to the player in question. They will win until they don't win anymore, and that's that.

Shamgoth

Belgium8 Posts

January 11 2012 14:15 GMT

#107

Very nice guide, I love the way you broke it down for the different skill-levels. I will most definitely try this out on ladder. Hope to catch u streaming sometime soon.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 11 2012 14:44 GMT

#108

If it's your opinion that newer zerg players must play "standard" macro to improve, that's fine...there's no right or wrong answer. In my experience, it's been the opposite - I've observed (and have taken detailed notes) showing that those who work on aggressive styles improve micro, macro, and multitasking more quickly than those who play a passive style. The way I first got to diamond/master/GM was through aggressive timing attacks, not macro, and that's why I'm trying to show that there are multiple stylistic choices available for zerg players of all skill levels. I don't think there need to be set-in-stone rules as to how a player chooses to play their game, because I think it's not so much what you do, it's how well you do it. Just play your game, there's always a way to make it work.

NoisyNinja

United States991 Posts

January 11 2012 22:00 GMT

#109

Clearly someone didn't read the whole guide. He has a third at 7:15 and goes 14/14 into an expansion. He drones while he attacks, which is smart.

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

January 12 2012 14:22 GMT

#110

I totally agree that my multitasking is getting far better by using this strategy. Sitting back and macroing... I can already do that quite good in high plat and it's taking me nowhere as most aggressive P or T timings are very very very strong.

I'd like to see a similar strat to a greedy FFE with roaches, though, hitting at a cruicial timing before he has more gates up or Gateway tech ready usually. Off of a 11overpool, preferrably, because I do this 100% anyway against toss.

Please. Thanks <3

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 12 2012 15:05 GMT

#111

On January 12 2012 23:22 Morghaine wrote:

I totally agree that my multitasking is getting far better by using this strategy. Sitting back and macroing... I can already do that quite good in high plat and it's taking me nowhere as most aggressive P or T timings are very very very strong.

I'd like to see a similar strat to a greedy FFE with roaches, though, hitting at a cruicial timing before he has more gates up or Gateway tech ready usually. Off of a 11overpool, preferrably, because I do this 100% anyway against toss.

Please. Thanks <3

There's nothing better for multitasking than picking a strategy that lets you put on frequent pressure.

In terms of FFE, I've had trouble breaking with roach/ling - Especially because a lot of players open FFE -> Voidray, and if they have a good wall they can use one voidray and infinite cannons to keep you back. However, I do have a guide in the works for ZvP that will allow you to put on all the pressure you could possibly ask for

EndOfLineTv

United States741 Posts

January 12 2012 15:24 GMT

#112

Me and tang have had a few conversations about aggressive roach openings, he has asked me to post a few replays for general discussion. Here is a replay of a very similar style to tang's.

The previous debate(s)
1. You are in danger to cloaked banshee follow ups: http://drop.sc/89777

This Terran opens up with a proxy 2 rax, I continue with my usual build with drone micro, The reason for roaches here is to aggressively scout the terran, to force him to show me what he is doing, The roaches are "sacked," while attempted to kill harvesters/buying time, meanwhile I am droning, and queening, and spore crawler making.

2. This hinders your ability to macro. http://drop.sc/89779

This game I go roach because I see that the terran is getting 1 gas. This means that he is likely two reaper/helion expand, or do some kind of 1 base all in. I have no idea which, so I am making roaches to force the terran to show me what he is doing, and to counter reaper/helion expand.

Here you can clearly see that I get a mega drone/base advantage, know exactly what the terran is doing, and have the best surround/win ever.

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

January 12 2012 17:11 GMT

#113

On January 13 2012 00:05 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

please please finish that guide.

I feel like you can't defend your third against virtually every timing push off of a FFE, just because you basically have to defend your third AND your natural from the push, which is impossible due to force fields preventing reinforcements and it's impossible to have enough spines up to defend both bases.

And if he doesn't push out and you didn't take your third, then it's gg, too, because his units are more cost efficient and you're not up a base early enough. So I feel like it's a loose-loose situation somewhat unless the P screws up.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 12 2012 18:02 GMT

#114

Hey guys, DarkForce was nice enough to play me some games and test out my roach/ling aggression strategies even though he doesn't play terran very much. We played three games:
http://drop.sc/89811
http://drop.sc/89810
http://drop.sc/89809

Kinetik_Inferno

United States1431 Posts

January 12 2012 18:44 GMT

#115

Oh goddamnit wrong thread sorry

BlackMTsidE

United States32 Posts

January 12 2012 18:47 GMT

#116

Great stuff, much appreciated. Only in plat but I must say it feels good to be able to set the tone in a game as a zerg by making the terran react to what YOU do for once! Thanks!

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

January 12 2012 19:04 GMT

#117

On January 13 2012 02:11 Morghaine wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://tangstarcraft.com/?p=590

Good guide on how to take 3 bases vs FFE and hold them vs more or less anything.

kast_

United States22 Posts

January 12 2012 19:05 GMT

#118

i am wrecking VH AI with this build now

Xterminator

47 Posts

January 12 2012 20:38 GMT

#119

I like this strategy, I have used it several times with success, The part after the timing is where ideally if the terran doesnt harass at all you can get 200/200 at your time, I think if you don't win against the timing the terran can counter and force you to make units instead of drones. Haven't played more than 5 games so far, My favorite thing is that you dont have to worry about hellion harass and not being able to take a 3rd till 10-12 minutes.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 12 2012 21:09 GMT

#120

On January 13 2012 05:38 Xterminator wrote:
I like this strategy, I have used it several times with success, The part after the timing is where ideally if the terran doesnt harass at all you can get 200/200 at your time, I think if you don't win against the timing the terran can counter and force you to make units instead of drones. Haven't played more than 5 games so far, My favorite thing is that you dont have to worry about hellion harass and not being able to take a 3rd till 10-12 minutes.

You really shouldn't drone/mass to 200 like I did in the replay, it's a bit unrealistic because you have to stay safe against counter-attacks.

Xterminator

47 Posts

January 12 2012 21:38 GMT

#121

On January 13 2012 06:09 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

You really shouldn't drone/mass to 200 like I did in the replay, it's a bit unrealistic because you have to stay safe against counter-attacks.

The build works great the terran can't do anything while your attacking so you can drone up and take a 3rd and a macro hatch soon after and be at 70 drones in no time while the terran tries to rebuild. Even though I was at 200/200 I died to a thor/BF allin, mass 3/1 thors own muta/roach.

Do you have any idea how this would work against a protoss? Or would they all ready have sentries out and be able to easily defend?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 12 2012 21:41 GMT

#122

On January 13 2012 06:38 Xterminator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Do you have any idea how this would work against a protoss? Or would they all ready have sentries out and be able to easily defend?

I think the majority of high-level protoss who FFE would have no problem holding this. A similar style could be used against 1gate or 3gate expands, but for the most part it's hard to be aggressive at this timing against protoss.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 13 2012 13:49 GMT

#123

On January 11 2012 17:48 kybarnet wrote:

1) 16 drones per min patch (2 per patch). Some say 3 for far patches is more optimal, but for Z in general (unless you are doing a two base timing) would you say no more than 16?

I would say whether you're on 5 bases or 1, 16 drones mining 2 per patch is optimal. This is my personal preference, like you said some people argue 3.

2) ALWAYS build structures, mine gas, with new morphed drones (rather than pull and replace). Honestly I could imagine that over time that this creates a lot of econ efficiency. Personally I tend to mass pull, then mass redrone, not really caring if I'm at 16 or 22.

I think this is the case for a lot of people. The more care you can put into managing your economy, the more you can maximize it. You'd be surprised how much more you mine if you keep 16 mining 2 per patch and don't take them off for any reason.

3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)?

In theory, you could just take a macro hatch first until you were sure. I don't think I've ever had to counter a 3rd base because of a counter-attack. If they're going marine/tank/hellion they're not going to attack for a while, the most common terran attacks after the roach/ling will be either banshees or a hellion/marine drop in the main - in these circumstances it doesn't matter too much if you have a 3rd.

Speedster155

United States2 Posts

January 19 2012 19:46 GMT

#124

Incredible guide Tang, I recently got into gold and your completely right about only focusing on the build order and general timings. Its really helped my gameplay improve alot, and im really impressed by the depth of this guide for how concise it is.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 22 2012 17:56 GMT

#125

On January 20 2012 04:46 Speedster155 wrote:
Incredible guide Tang, I recently got into gold and your completely right about only focusing on the build order and general timings. Its really helped my gameplay improve alot, and im really impressed by the depth of this guide for how concise it is.

Thanks a lot Speedster! What race do you play? If Zerg, it'd be great if you uploaded a few replays using this or similar styles so other gold and below players can benefit.

ghostCatalyst

Philippines39 Posts

January 26 2012 01:57 GMT

#126

Hi Tang,

I'm a mid/high plat who's been trying aggressive zerg style over the past few months, using a few of your guides to change my game view. I've been doing some roach aggression vs Protoss who FFE, but when I don't kill off their nexus, I feel super behind the whole game, and eventually die to a deathball push. Is there a way to deal with this, or what do you against P who FFE?

Thanks

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 26 2012 15:03 GMT

#127

On January 26 2012 10:57 ghostCatalyst wrote:
Hi Tang,

I'm a mid/high plat who's been trying aggressive zerg style over the past few months, using a few of your guides to change my game view. I've been doing some roach aggression vs Protoss who FFE, but when I don't kill off their nexus, I feel super behind the whole game, and eventually die to a deathball push. Is there a way to deal with this, or what do you against P who FFE?

Thanks

Hey ghost,
I do this against FFE: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/302592802
Hope it helps. I haven't been as successful with straight timing pushes in ZvP.

TheTurk

United States732 Posts

January 26 2012 15:16 GMT

#128

Such a nice guide.
10/10
Thanks!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 26 2012 22:43 GMT

#129

On January 27 2012 00:16 TheTurk wrote:
Such a nice guide.
10/10
Thanks!

Ty turk

XChoke

Australia45 Posts

January 27 2012 02:23 GMT

#130

I don't understand why people have some hate against the OP because of his stylistic choice of play. I personal play a similar style using an intial army to contain while gaining map control. Yes Banshee's/drops are quite a common response but it's so predictable that you just get those extra queens and a spine crawler or two a little earlier...

Why do so many Zergs think that any build that doesn't optimize economy is "all in"? Tell that Leenock! I believe the OP is actually advocating quite a balanced play style that contains/pressures the opponent while he safely macro's behind it. How is this not a good transition or any less valid than droning to 70+?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 27 2012 17:59 GMT

#131

On January 27 2012 11:23 XChoke wrote:
I don't understand why people have some hate against the OP because of his stylistic choice of play. I personal play a similar style using an intial army to contain while gaining map control. Yes Banshee's/drops are quite a common response but it's so predictable that you just get those extra queens and a spine crawler or two a little earlier...

Why do so many Zergs think that any build that doesn't optimize economy is "all in"? Tell that Leenock! I believe the OP is actually advocating quite a balanced play style that contains/pressures the opponent while he safely macro's behind it. How is this not a good transition or any less valid than droning to 70+?

I agree XChoke, I think there's a double-standard in StarCraft where Terran and Protoss players are expected to do pressure builds but if a Zerg player tries to pressure it's suddenly cheese. I hope more people open up to the variety of strategies in SC2!

VaLix

United States5 Posts

January 28 2012 04:20 GMT

#132

Love the guide Tang! Was having some trouble breaking into gold as I was always droning and never really attacking until I had mutas or was near maxed out. Also your site looks like a zerg gold-mine. Keep up the awesome work!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 28 2012 18:47 GMT

#133

On January 28 2012 13:20 VaLix wrote:
Love the guide Tang! Was having some trouble breaking into gold as I was always droning and never really attacking until I had mutas or was near maxed out. Also your site looks like a zerg gold-mine. Keep up the awesome work!

Np VaLix, early/mid game timing attacks are a great way to improve and progress through the divisions. Thanks for viewing my site and GL in your gaming!

BalliSLife

1339 Posts

January 28 2012 19:53 GMT

#134

Can we see these builds in a replay? Preferably on Youtube.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 28 2012 21:28 GMT

#135

On January 29 2012 04:53 BalliSLife wrote:
Can we see these builds in a replay? Preferably on Youtube.

http://drop.sc/85214
Not on youtube sry.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 01 2012 18:30 GMT

#136

On January 13 2012 06:38 Xterminator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Even though I was at 200/200 I died to a thor/BF allin, mass 3/1 thors own muta/roach.

Late game thors are so strong, it's important to go infestors/broodlords in this scenario. Also, if you're going roach/muta in the midgame, you can abuse the immobility of mech by hitting multiple targets.

Take Antiga Shipyard for example. Once terran takes a 3rd base, they're going to be fairly spread out - you can use your mutas in the main, run away when thors are close, and take your large roach army through the rocks and into his 3rd. I occasionally even get overlord drop so that I can drop 16lings into the main, forcing him to pull back some of his army so that I can attack elsewhere.

JBSnafet

Canada4 Posts

February 02 2012 22:47 GMT

#137

Tang this build I beautiful. I have used a variation of this for the last two weeks and have not lost to a Terran at all in those two weeks. The exciting thing for me is that your build is actually further optimized than mine. Thank you for the wicked guide, I look forward to testing it out soon!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 03 2012 16:52 GMT

#138

On February 03 2012 07:47 JBSnafet wrote:
Tang this build I beautiful. I have used a variation of this for the last two weeks and have not lost to a Terran at all in those two weeks. The exciting thing for me is that your build is actually further optimized than mine. Thank you for the wicked guide, I look forward to testing it out soon!

That's awesome that the style has been working for you JB, it catches a lot of players off guard because zerg is so expected to be passive. I'm glad the guide has helped refine your ZvT build ^^

NostalgiaTag

Canada508 Posts

February 03 2012 20:08 GMT

#139

10/10 Great guide Will be trying this and practicing tonight!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 04 2012 00:22 GMT

#140

On February 04 2012 05:08 NostalgiaTag wrote:
10/10 Great guide Will be trying this and practicing tonight!

If it goes well, post the reps!

Rewok

40 Posts

March 16 2012 20:05 GMT

#141

Love this ZvT style.

In one week, I went from Top 50 gold where I was stuck to top 8 platinum. braveZOMBiE.532

My win rate against Terran is like 90%. Now that I've figured out how to hold the initial bunker rush, it's more like 100%.

I just remember being stuck in Gold and then winning like 15 straight vs gold, platinum and eventually diamond.

If your ZvT could use some work, this guide ROCKS.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 18 2012 17:32 GMT

#142

On March 17 2012 05:05 Rewok wrote:
Love this ZvT style.

In one week, I went from Top 50 gold where I was stuck to top 8 platinum. braveZOMBiE.532

My win rate against Terran is like 90%. Now that I've figured out how to hold the initial bunker rush, it's more like 100%.

I just remember being stuck in Gold and then winning like 15 straight vs gold, platinum and eventually diamond.

If your ZvT could use some work, this guide ROCKS.

Bunker rushes require you to pull drones from your main and occasionally produce a couple extra zerglings and 1-2 spines. After you hold it, though, you can transition into the roach/ling timing to contain him to 1 base.

bri9and

United States246 Posts

March 20 2012 19:53 GMT

#143

If they don't fall for that, offer $20 for a surrender and that pretty much secures the win.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 21 2012 19:50 GMT

#144

On March 21 2012 04:53 bri9and wrote:
If they don't fall for that, offer $20 for a surrender and that pretty much secures the win.

Bit of a silly suggestion, not really related to strategy. I can't imagine anyone would accept such an offer, and anyone who pays 20$ for someone to leave a game would go broke pretty fast.

bri9and

United States246 Posts

March 23 2012 18:06 GMT

#145

Well played sir.. well played.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5499/loltang.jpg

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1076#21526

forevernerdy was just banned by Chill.

That account was created on 2011-10-23 14:05:06 and had 30 posts.

Reason: You seriously made a second account to ask yourself questions in your own thread Tang? Come on bro.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 23 2012 18:11 GMT

#146

On March 24 2012 03:06 bri9and wrote:
Well played sir.. well played.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5499/loltang.jpg

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1076#21526

Show nested quote +

Do some research on the poster of that topic on reddit, it's just a line taken out of context of the greater joke. Please post the entire replay, so we can all see!

Also, Chill unbanned that account, it was banned because a Uwaterloo friend and I have the same IP when we're on campus.

I appreciate your desire to keep the SC2 community honest though! It would be shameful if someone actually paid their way into Grand Master, or created an account to bump their own threads on TL.

WolfintheSheep

Canada14127 Posts

March 23 2012 18:34 GMT

#147

On January 28 2012 02:59 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Imagine a Terran or Protoss player pulls 10-15 workers with every pressure build that they do. That's usually around the number of drones you're cutting with your builds on every offensive, and that's why they're all-ins.

If your builds were built around keeping an equivalent economy with your opponent, then you might be able to call it pressure. But there is no double-standard - If Terran and Protoss cut worker production, or pull workers, then they're doing an all-in. It would be a double-standard not to say the same about Zerg.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 23 2012 18:50 GMT

#148

On March 24 2012 03:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:

Show nested quote +

I like that you're analyzing it critically! But I would disagree with a few points.

First, you cannot compare executing a timing attack that uses 15 larva with protoss/terran players pulling 10/15 workers. Using workers as part of a timing attack immediately cuts your income in half! Not to mention lost mining time of moving across the map. With a roach/ling timing you're droning into the mid game, securing one fully-saturated base and an expansion with a few drones (it takes roughly 22-26 drones to be able to support 2hatch/2queen drone production).

I understand that you see StarCraft II as a game that revolves around "keeping an equivalent economy with your opponent". Many people would agree with you, and I think your answer is partically right: maintaining equal or greater economy with your opponent is a significant factor and it's one way to approach your decision-making. But you have to take into consideration other factors too, like map control and safety to drone, scouting information, damage done to opponent, and additional defenses built by opponent.

There are a wide variety of economic and aggressive transitions available to those who properly execute Roach/Ling timing attacks.

Proxee

63 Posts

March 30 2012 19:29 GMT

#149

This build is Very much NOT an all-in. It can be used that way, or u could just go for a macro game. And also I'm sick of these double standard for zerg players, Protoss/Terran do early timing attacks and its stratgey, Zerg does an early timing attack and its Just cheese. Tang's guides are very useful for learning. Just because u can opt to do an all-in doesn't mean its an All-in.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 03 2012 21:05 GMT

#150

On March 31 2012 04:29 Proxee wrote:
This build is Very much NOT an all-in. It can be used that way, or u could just go for a macro game. And also I'm sick of these double standard for zerg players, Protoss/Terran do early timing attacks and its stratgey, Zerg does an early timing attack and its Just cheese. Tang's guides are very useful for learning. Just because u can opt to do an all-in doesn't mean its an All-in.

I agree with you about double standards, people overestimate how badly zerg needs 60+ drones and 3 fully saturated bases. Of course going for as strong of an economy and unit composition in the late game is a great strategy/mindset, but it's not the only one - There are a lot of ways to be dangerous in the early/midgame.

bmore_bulldog

18 Posts

April 12 2012 16:38 GMT

#151

Aggressive builds are a critical part of the game. They're annoying when you're starting out, but in higher level play they're necessary to punish greedy builds and to keep your opponent guessing. I don't understand the hate Tang gets for pushing this style. It's as though macro play is the only acceptable form of SC2. I find it illuminating to compare this thread to the thread about foreigner vs. Korean play styles, and the aggression favored by the latter.

Now, if Tang actually paid people to drop or used fake accounts, that's another thing, but for now I'll take his word that he didn't.

Glitch890

22 Posts

April 23 2012 01:13 GMT

#152

Great guide, definitely going to try this.

I also find it interesting that when P or T (especially T) plays aggressively, no one bats an eye, but when Zerg does it all of a sudden your a cheesy noob.

Th1rdEye

United States1074 Posts

April 23 2012 01:31 GMT

#153

Nice guide.. Not sure who bumped this, but definitely a good read. The small execution tips are quite important, and overlooked by many players

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 23 2012 15:45 GMT

#154

On April 23 2012 10:13 Glitch890 wrote:
I also find it interesting that when P or T (especially T) plays aggressively, no one bats an eye, but when Zerg does it all of a sudden your a cheesy noob.

It has been that way since beta I'm afraid, but I've seen so many pros (Nestea/Losira/Drg) go for 2base timings and transition into 3-4 base standard macro. The thing that bothers me the most is that people even criticize players for choosing all-in styles, they can be as effective as any.

zZzJinzZz

United States13 Posts

April 23 2012 15:56 GMT

#155

Nice build :D

Sithelin123

Canada168 Posts

April 29 2012 21:05 GMT

#156

I'm a new Zerg player and I'm definitely going to pick this up as my go-to ZvT style. Very impressive build and thank you very much. I have a ton of practice to do before I get this right though.

Tang ALL of your guides are extremely amazing and IMO the best guides in this forum.

GodOfWarAReS

Germany105 Posts

April 29 2012 21:16 GMT

#157

seriously this is sooo risky. there are plenty of buildorders which will just CRUSH yours. maybe against most builds of the terran you will have a huge advantage after your push... but its a strategy game, so be able to react to everything without getting too much of a disadvantage...

bankai

362 Posts

April 30 2012 02:05 GMT

#158

Hi all, not sure if this question has been asked already so forgive me if it has:
- Is there a reason for the slight difference in this BO compared to the original Tang thread on the ZvT Roach all-in or is it? In Phase 1 in this one, you build lings up to 60/60 supply, but in the other thread you only build lings up to 52/60 supply.
- The basic BO in Step 1 does not seem to mention drone scouting - at what point should I send my drone out? I prefer 9 normally so I can get inside the terran wall-off to scout gas or not.

Thanks for your help everyone

Tenken

United States17 Posts

April 30 2012 03:06 GMT

#159

On April 24 2012 00:45 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

The difference is that they are actually good at the game where as your game is lacking past the 10 minute mark.

ETisME

12384 Posts

April 30 2012 04:06 GMT

#160

the question is, are the units going to worth all the investment? I can see it taking down hellions, map control but how about dealing damages? (maybe getting some depots down or a few marines + scv pull?)
that's really my main and only concern, probably the one guide from Tang that I might do because it looks more macro based and easier to transition.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 30 2012 14:05 GMT

#161

On April 30 2012 13:06 ETisME wrote:
the question is, are the units going to worth all the investment? I can see it taking down hellions, map control but how about dealing damages? (maybe getting some depots down or a few marines + scv pull?)
that's really my main and only concern, probably the one guide from Tang that I might do because it looks more macro based and easier to transition.

If your plan is to pressure, you can always build fewer lings - to 52 supply is perfect for a macro transition. DRG does a similar roach build, except he skips zerglings in favor of a faster 3rd.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 30 2012 14:14 GMT

#162

On April 30 2012 11:05 bankai wrote:
Hi all, not sure if this question has been asked already so forgive me if it has:
- Is there a reason for the slight difference in this BO compared to the original Tang thread on the ZvT Roach all-in or is it? In Phase 1 in this one, you build lings up to 60/60 supply, but in the other thread you only build lings up to 52/60 supply.
- The basic BO in Step 1 does not seem to mention drone scouting - at what point should I send my drone out? I prefer 9 normally so I can get inside the terran wall-off to scout gas or not.

Thanks for your help everyone

Making Zerglings to 60 is an even larger commitment, meant to emphasize how easy it is to transition out of a 22+Drone, 2base 2queen economy. Exactly how many zerglings you produce depends on what your goal is, generally if you cut lings between 52-60 supply, and don't fall behind in the multitasking, you can be even or ahead against the majority of Terran builds (Assuming you don't break in and end it immediately).

There are professional zerg players who drone scout on 10, 13, and 15. There are also players who don't drone scout at all. I drone scout if I'm planning to play a riskier macro build, but if I'm getting a 28 warren, I feel pretty safe against anything but a 2rax all-in.

bankai

362 Posts

May 01 2012 02:51 GMT

#163

On April 30 2012 23:14 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks Tang, makes a lot of sense!

I have tried this a couple of times, and have problem with the suggested 14hatch opener. On shattered temple, some terrans have walled me in with their first depot/rax before my drone can get out to put down that 14hatch. What shoould I do? Should I just immediately take gas/pool and go roaches?

The above was the reason why i was thinking to 10 scout but then not sure if it slows down execution of this build since its quite tight.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 01 2012 22:16 GMT

#164

On May 01 2012 11:51 bankai wrote:

Show nested quote +

In all honesty, I've never had my expansion walled with a barracks and a depot - I don't really see how that could be a viable opening for terran. If he's sending 2 SCVs that early, you should know something very strange is up. In general I would just start gas/pool in the main and aim for Zerglings with speed, and probably banelings too just in case I need to bust through to take my natural.

bankai

362 Posts

May 02 2012 00:30 GMT

#165

On May 02 2012 07:16 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Ok thanks for the advice

hillman

United States162 Posts

May 10 2012 05:48 GMT

#166

First off, I can't believe some of the idiotic replies to this guide...calling it an "all-in" or saying that this build just "doesn't work"....Stephano and DRG use similar versions of this build. They don't just hide behind a single spine crawler and power out drones up to three bases every game (particularly vs. terran). The most effective Terrans are essentially using the same concepts preached here but for their own race ... they create units with which to be aggressive whilst following it up with macro.

Even if you don't do a ton of damage you can cause your opponent to be thrown off his macro game with the aggression....and if you smartly engage with those early units (i.e., don't lose them all if an attack proves fruitless), you will have the means to defend yourself into the mid-game..this also gives you the means to counterattack and prevent expansions, rather than playing a completely passive style. Also, its good to note that being aggressive and scouting often coincide nicely...giving you and idea of where your opponent's army/economy is at during the early midgame...

This is a great style and I appreciate this guide...I have to lol at people who "disagree" with this guide ... so you disagree with a coherent strategy to put pressure on your opponent while creating a booming economy? Tang says it himself: a build is more a flexible concept than an "algorithm" ... you can scale the aggro vs. economy in either direction and tweak this as you like....

Interestingly, I think Slayers.Coca is a wonderful example of how a "macro-aggressive" zerg can dominate Terrans, particularly in the recent Korean Weekly that he won....although I would argue that perhaps his focus is a bit too much on the aggression side than the macro side. He would often take a late 4th when his main was mining out and never reach 3:3 upgrades or upgrade to cracklings....nevertheless his aggression absolutely crushed Taeja in the early game to the point that his macro-failures in the late game almost didn't matter .... they did play close games and I suspect that with better macro Taeja would have been put away much more quickly...

sertman

United States540 Posts

May 10 2012 06:21 GMT

#167

i've actually been using your "three barrel bust" strategy tang and my ZvT has been rocking low-mid masters players :D the roach push is awesome and is a good "shit test" to see if the T worth his salt imo. if he handles it poorly i all in and if he's prepared i just pull back, drone/expand, and prepare for the next huge bust. i can't even stress how much having a plan and making huge amount of units has helped my ZvT :D

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 11 2012 00:23 GMT

#168

On May 10 2012 15:21 patzernuk wrote:
i've actually been using your "three barrel bust" strategy tang and my ZvT has been rocking low-mid masters players :D the roach push is awesome and is a good "shit test" to see if the T worth his salt imo. if he handles it poorly i all in and if he's prepared i just pull back, drone/expand, and prepare for the next huge bust. i can't even stress how much having a plan and making huge amount of units has helped my ZvT :D

I still do the three barrel bust occasionally ^^ the first roach push definitely catches a lot of players off guard and theoretically can win the game if their response isn't solid, but the ability to hit a timing attack and use it to drone is an overlooked concept in the current Zerg metagame.

DontCheeseMe

United States2 Posts

May 11 2012 23:56 GMT

#169

Really liking this build. It doesn't feel like an all in either. I personally like to follow the initial attack up with a transition into muta/ling/bane and so far it has worked well for me.

Heres two games vs diamond league folks using this build. Excuse my far from perfect play and execution.

Metalopolis
http://replayfu.com/r/t4Zcnj

Cloud Kingdom LE
http://replayfu.com/r/XTHq4g

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 23 2012 18:09 GMT

#170

On May 12 2012 08:56 DontCheeseMe wrote:
Really liking this build. It doesn't feel like an all in either. I personally like to follow the initial attack up with a transition into muta/ling/bane and so far it has worked well for me.

Heres two games vs diamond league folks using this build. Excuse my far from perfect play and execution.

Metalopolis
http://replayfu.com/r/t4Zcnj

Cloud Kingdom LE
http://replayfu.com/r/XTHq4g

Yeah that works too. I personally prefer to use my gas to get +1+1 and eventually infestors, but as long as you're aiming for full 2base saturation with 4 gas and a 3rd base eventually, you can afford Roach/Ling/Baneling, Muta/Ling/Baneling, or Ling/Infestor in the midgame.

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