Hello! The question is simple, what opening do you use on that map? Personally I've had some problems with the map. Hellions are bad, according to me, since the natural has a ramp and I don't like hellions then. Any bunker pressure is also hard since the back of the mineral line is far away from the ramp and the zerg can easily flank incoming marines etc etc. FE is impossible since the ramp is so big and hard to wall off (requires alot of structures to do so) and that makes link/bling/roach pressure really hard to hold... So, share your strats here everybody!
I use to do hellion opening anyway since it's easy to contain the zerg and denie futher creep and make sure he doesn't get any mapcontrol, and if u see roaches comming you just make bunker
On January 06 2012 08:48 Teoodorh wrote: Any bunker pressure is also hard since the back of the mineral line is far away from the ramp and the zerg can easily flank incoming marines etc etc.
There is a thread in the Zerg section regarding this (I can link it if you want) that shows arguably imbalanced bunker rush placements, using the odd structure of the natural. It's actually bad enough to warrant a veto if you can't deny the SCV outright.
I'm primarily a zerg player, but I know from playing against terran on that map that hellion openings are VERY common - almost every ZvT I've played on Entombed Valley has been a reactor/hellion expand.
I think your using your hellions incorrectly. They dont need to do any damage! All you need them for is to deny a quick 3rd and kill creep tumors. Just play normally. Any successful bunker pressure would be dumb luck without an 11/12 rax or proxy. With a hellion opening (not sure if your doing both at same time post replay plz!) just build the bunker to force a response from the zerg (drones not mining/lings made) dont expect it to "work" in the sense that youll out right kill the zergs natural.
You can FE and id advise it on such a macro map. 1rax fe into double gas into reactor hellions (look up qimmvp games) keeping your 2nd OC in your main until you can assert map control with hellions to expand to the natural. If you feel the ramp is too big to defend the natural connect the bunker/depot wall to your OC and micro your scvs away from backstabbing lings. The 3rd is fairly easy to defend as well with turrets and a solid tank line i dont know why youd have so many problems on this map you can easily fake push and siege up the chokes around the middle of the map starving the zerg until hes forced to take a 4th. Then drop the main and push. Also unless its cross position you can take your 4th in the direction of the zerg main. All in all this map seems very favorable for terran players. Zergs seem to have to take a far away 4th thats weak to drops. GL HF post a replay!
As a zerg player the biggest fear i would have on that map is a macro oriented Terran player who turtles on 3 bases and keeps doing drops on my 4th / 5th base.
On January 06 2012 09:13 Bart331 wrote: As a zerg player the biggest fear i would have on that map is a macro oriented Terran player who turtles on 3 bases and keeps doing drops on my 4th / 5th base.
Any sort of fast third CC builds are terrifying on this map. Play it similarly to Antiga or Shakuras in my opinion. I also think you may be misinterpreting what your helion opening has to do. No reason to suicide them for 4 drones. Just deny creep and a quick third.
On January 06 2012 09:20 Teoodorh wrote: Hmm, I guess I'll try hellions then, I just don't feel comfortable with it on that map as I do on Shattered Temple or Metalopolis...
Hellions give map control and when used correctly force 2base lair play that helps you catch up in worker count. Just be prepare to defend the roach/baneling/muta pressure depending on what your hellions scout.
On January 06 2012 08:55 Teoodorh wrote: Well, that thread is so overposted, I'd rather start a new one so people will see the question
There are about 5-6 experienced terran players, including myself, IamJeffrey, and a few others, who read the most recent pages of the thread every day and answer all the questions. 99.99% of people do not read the early pages, just the most recent one.
That being said, I've found a reactor hellion expo with just 2 hellions into a marine/tank timing off 2 base to be effective on this map. The architecture is a little weird but it's suitable for early hellion map control.
I think this is a great mech map as you can do a push toward the zerg's main and be very close to a few of his most likely expansions as well. I've had success with 1 rax expand > double gas and bunker while getting 2 factories, a quick 3rd CC, and then double armory. You should be getting close to max at the time 2/2 is finishing, and you can do a doom push with a lot of SCVs to repair while building more orbitals & trying to establish planetaries at other base locations.
On January 06 2012 08:55 Teoodorh wrote: Well, that thread is so overposted, I'd rather start a new one so people will see the question
and if everyone thought like you we'd have a mass of terrible threads, good to see you are an exception for some reason... oh wait we still get terrible threads like all the time.
Well, from experience, reactor hellion into fast third CC is quite nice. It's easy to defend with tanks and zerg don't have a particulary easy to defend 4th nor 5th. Play it like Antiga with the Bomber build day9 analyzed in his previous daily is a good start.
On January 06 2012 09:13 Bart331 wrote: As a zerg player the biggest fear i would have on that map is a macro oriented Terran player who turtles on 3 bases and keeps doing drops on my 4th / 5th base.
Any sort of fast third CC builds are terrifying on this map. Play it similarly to Antiga or Shakuras in my opinion. I also think you may be misinterpreting what your helion opening has to do. No reason to suicide them for 4 drones. Just deny creep and a quick third.
Hope this helped mate, gL and Cheers!
This is what I do; reaper expand, then lift rax, put a factory down and put a reactor on the barracks, drop another (third) command centre and then pump out six hellions (and possibly a marauder for defensive purposes). Identical to the build that MMA did vs DRG twice in their Blizzard Cup series. The hellions deny the 3rd and also scout any moveouts. It's very hard to be attacked with this because of the chokepoints at the ramp. The only threat is fast drops or extremely quick mutas, which you should actively scout for and prepare adequately.
on polt's stream ive seen him doing a bunker rush with reaper, and expanding off of 1 rax and 2 reapers. This usually works because the reaper can bypass the ramp which seems to be the issue with marine bunker rushes
reapers for bunker rushing on entombbed valley is one of the most broken aspects in the game. If u put the bunker behind the expansion mineral line at the high ground, u can load a reaper on the bunker and hit both expansion AND main hatcheries due to bunker +1 range.
I like to do 1 rack expand but you have to make a sorta silly wall in. I like to cut off my nat with supply depos not blocking the ramp to your nat but from the ramp of my main to my nat sorta make a diagonal cross cutting my natural in half... kinda hard to explain wish i could upload a picture
I would watch this day 9 daily and use this build:
This build focuses on a fast 3rd base, and a strong macro style marine tank play, which I think is the best for the map just because your third base is right next to you. The build is well-explained by day9, so I don't think I need to explain or I can explain better than he does.
Thread: TvZ on Entombed Valley , what do you terrans do?!
My answer: Lose and then veto the map.
Honestly though, I feel like this map is (A) never gonna go into tournament play, (B) the rocks are just weird, (C) the map looks weird aesthetics...I don't feel like it's worth playing on this map :o
On January 06 2012 15:17 Cyclone999 wrote: Thread: TvZ on Entombed Valley , what do you terrans do?!
My answer: Lose and then veto the map.
Honestly though, I feel like this map is (A) never gonna go into tournament play, (B) the rocks are just weird, (C) the map looks weird aesthetics...I don't feel like it's worth playing on this map :o
It was just in the AOL tournament, so A is wrong at least.
Fast expanding is not impossible (it's actually quite good), I suggest reactor hellion double expand even. I find that mech is incredibly strong on this map more than most, while bio has to be cautious about where it stages a push from.
Entombed valley is really Zerg friendly because the Zerg has a well protected natural and an opportunity for a quick third. The map is also large, which allows the Zerg to move around freely unless you gain map control early.
I would suggest opening up with reactor hellions and transitioning into Marine, Tank, Medivac. Use the Hellions to apply pressure and contain the Zerg. If you are lucky, you can even deny their third. Afterwards, use your marine, tank, medivac force to contain them and slowly choke them. Get some vikings too to deal with the broodlords that they will try to get.
As an ammedum: It is still unclear whether Entombed Valley is Zerg friendly or not. While the argument could be made that Hellions are very good on this map or that a Zerg is succeptible to a bunker rush, I find it incredibly easy for a Zerg to get a quick third and take map control with some Zerglings.
It's pretty easy to deny zerg's fourth(and third with a timing attack) on this map so as long as you get a third at a reasonable time and focus on denying zerg's fourth while taking your own you can usually win in the late game. I do think this map is pretty difficult tvp though. Protoss doesn't really need a fourth base and can turtle 3 base till 3-3 and max pretty easily since there's not much room to drop at all.
On January 06 2012 14:53 hipsterdontlie wrote: on polt's stream ive seen him doing a bunker rush with reaper, and expanding off of 1 rax and 2 reapers. This usually works because the reaper can bypass the ramp which seems to be the issue with marine bunker rushes
Yeah, this is the strategy I've started to favor on this map, especially since there's a good semi-blind spot by the ledge of the natural to place a bunker for your reapers to jump into and harass. I use the reapers to do whatever damage I can, expand, build up 2 Reactor'd raxes and build 1 marauder and 4 marines at a time. I do a followup attack with stim and concussive, and I can use the natural ramp of entombed to make a wall of marauders with marines dealing dps behind them.
the 12/14 2 rax is insanely good on this map if executed correctly against a fast hatchery zerg. Watch the recent gsl MVP vs. Lucky game 1 on the map...MVP proxies his 2 rax just outside his natural ramp and abuses the little nook by the natural ramp to keep a marine safe while he builds 2 bunkers, 1 on low ground walling the marine in and 1 on high ground protected by the marine on the ground. I've tried as well, but don't proxy my rax in fear of a zerg all in when you kill his hatch ><
The problem with going for a fast third on this map or pretty much any map vs zerg is that by the time that you're heading out for your big push you most likely have done zero harassment and the zerg is getting Hive tech. I'd suggest a 2 hellion poke/rally to prevent creep spread and maintain map control or force a lot of lings while going for a fast 2 base 2/3 tank marine/bunker push. It applies a lot of pressure and you can almost always grab a faster third than the zerg with this build. Sometimes it can outright kill the zerg if you execute it correctly.
As stated, the two best openings are 2 rax (because you can abuse the way the natural ramps are with a bunker), and Reactor Hellion into double expand, because it's really hard for the zerg to challenge.
It's actually surprisingly difficult for the zerg to take a third here unless you lose your hellions. I usually make 6 hellions here, with 5 at the bottom of the ramp and 1 on the other side of the rocks, and almost every zerg 2 base muta against me, which I invite.
On January 06 2012 15:00 OpTiKDream wrote: reapers for bunker rushing on entombbed valley is one of the most broken aspects in the game. If u put the bunker behind the expansion mineral line at the high ground, u can load a reaper on the bunker and hit both expansion AND main hatcheries due to bunker +1 range.
EPT
