TvZ: Using the 1/1/1 to Improve Mechanics and Win-Rate
Thank you all for checking out my strategy guide on Terran.
Some of you may know my style of aggressive zerg – and that I argue aggression is the key to rapidly improving mechanics and fundamentals. This concept isn’t exclusive to zerg, however, so I’ve decided to dedicate some time to writing articles designed to help protoss and terran players improve faster at StarCraft II. In this thread, we’ll examine the strengths of an aggressive 1/1/1 opening against Zerg, and in particular the ways in which constant and effective terran attacks will help you develop the skills needed to excel as a gamer.
When your goal is to improve, you want to choose a very active/aggressive style of play because it’ll rapidly improve what I call the Three “M’s” of Starcraft II Fundamentals: Micro, Macro, and Multitasking. You need a build that is defensive when you’re being pressured and offensive when you’re not. The 1/1/1 is a versatile build order that not only defends against early pressure and cheese, but also provides multiple opportunities to attack your zerg opponent.
I played a quick custom game against a platinum level player - not the best example but it's a rough outline of the build and the execution. I will get a stream episode up early next week! http://drop.sc/64812
Planning is key in SC2 and if you want to learn a style, you need a well-refined a build order. Before you focus too intently on what to do with your units, you need to learn how to get your units – in the most efficient way possible. You need to practice the timings of the build vigorously, committing the steps to memory before trying to execute harassment and timing attacks. This way, when you make a macro mistake or you slip while microing, you quickly know how to get your build back on track.
In other words, when a build is practiced it becomes almost second nature, thus more of your time and focus is allotted to unit control.
Build Order: Hyper-Aggressive 1/1/1
10Supply Depot
11th SCV – Scout (Delay hatch-first with SCV by 2:15, scout gas/pool timings)
12Barracks
Light Pressure (Recommended vs Hatch First) Try to build a bunker by his minerals at his expansion and rally your first marine. This is more or less “Feigning” pressure, as you don’t intend to commit to the attack and will likely even cancel or salvage the bunker and return the scv/marine to your base.
13Gas
15Orbital/Marine – Constant production on Marines until you have 5
16Supply Depot (Walled in by 3minutes, this SCV builds factory too)
18 Factory (With first 100 gas)
20 2nd Gas
23 Supply Depot
When factory finishes – 1 Hellion 1 Starport
5Minute Mark: First Push (5 Marine 1 Hellion)
Reactor on Barracks after 5th marine, tech lab on Factory after hellion.
Keep constant production marines SCVs, depots, Marines, and Tanks steadily. Delay siege tech until you push out – you’ll notice you need that gas to keep constant unit production.
6:30 Open starport production with 1 viking to go overlord hunting then get a tech lab and start making banshees out of your starport (No cloak).
8:00 Start Siege Tech, start an expansion, and move out with your army
If the push is doing well, constantly produce off your 1/1/1. If you don’t think you’re going to win, add on structures and/or transition as you push. There is a ton of room for variation here, but you’ll want to do another push by 13 minutes. I typically recommend adding an engineering bay and swapping your first barracks and starport (allowing you to produce medivacs and upgrade stim). Then add on 2 barracks and move into +1/Stim marines with tanks and medivacs off 4 gas geysers /2 fully saturated mineral fields.
13:00 Take a 3rd Base
13Minute Mark: Third Push (7 Tank, 5 Medivac, 34 Marines)
When you scout and how you use the information can make a huge difference. Try to have set times every game where you scout, and make sure you know what you’re looking for and what you’re going to do when you find what you’re looking for.
First SCV Scout (2:00): Determine if he’s going hatch first and whether he went gas before or after pool. If he went gas before pool, don’t overreact but already be suspicious of 1-2 base baneling or roach all-in.
Second SCV Scout (5:15): Absolutely crucial to scout hatch first here to look for a roach warren or baneling nest. They won’t have speed done, so you can usually get in the main and see tech structures and how much gas has been mined.
Hellion/Marine Pressure/Scout (5:30/5:45): This little push gives you exactly the information you need. He’s either:
Going to push – Minimal spine crawlers, more unit heavy with big ling speedling count or roaches. roaches come out or big ling. More than 4 roaches = VERY likely he’s going to roach/ling. You’ll need to keep your hellion alive to actively scout if he moves out and prepare by bunkering. You will counter-attack when you feel safe, probably later than the usual 8 minutes. Another indication of incoming roach/ling timing attack: zerglings he has roaches AND zergling speed. Going to macro – Queens and spines are well-positioned, perhaps an evo chamber is helping narrow the travel paths in expansion. You won’t need to build a bunker and you’ll punish him with a big 8minute push.
Viking (6:30/7:00): This viking is mainly used to pick off overlords, but it’s a good idea to fly it over the zerg main in the process – you need to see his lair timing and if he’s going some sort of roach/ling/baneling style or if he’s just teching lair and adding gas (muta or infestor). Also watch for 2 evo chambers and nothing else – this is a sign of a mass-ling style. Also fly over his 3rd location at the 8-8:30 minute mark. Do not execute the push against a player who doesn’t take a 3rd and has BOTH a roach warren and a baneling nest – be defensive against that style with bunkers and tanks.
Marine/Tank/Banshee (8:00) You know if he has a 3rd base, and that dictates how you proceed…
If he has a 3rd then go directly for his natural, don’t slow push – he’s spent a lot of money on a 3rd hatch and you can get right into a close location at the edge of his creep before sieging up. Continue to reinforce.
If he doesn’t have a 3rd, you can still pressure but you need to push slower and consider transitioning earlier because he may be teching to fast mutas and when they’re out, you need stim and turrets. Keep in mind you have the option to send your SCVs with this push to serve as an all-in, which isn't a terrible decision if the player doesn't have a baneling nest or multiple spine-crawlers.
I usually recommend transitioning into the marine/tank/medivac from here on out because you can do another push at the 13 minute mark with 7+ tanks and tons of +1 stim marines and medivacs – and take your 3rd in the meantime. You can also do a drop before the push or use “elevator” tactics to make the push stronger. (Siege up on low-ground then drop some units on high ground and siege there).
Remember that the most important thing to do while executing these pushes is to keep up with your MACRO by multitasking. Do things like build additional depots before you engage, because you can keep your screen looking at your army when building units, but depots require you to go back to your base. For learning purposes, it’s more effective to run your 5minute push into 6 spine crawlers and keep consistent timings and macro than it is to kill a queen but lose production time by getting supply blocked.
5Minute Push: As soon as your 5 marines are out, it’s time to move out. (Keep in mind, since you scout at 5:15 with your SCV, you can opt NOT to move out with your marines if you suspect a large early attack from Zerg.) When your hellion comes out, use it to clear the xel naga and then bring it to your marines. This push is PRIMARILY to scout – but you will be surprised some games you can kill an overlord, some lings, a constructing spine crawler, a few drones, and if you’re really luck, a queen!
8Minute Push: When the first banshee comes out, it’s time to push. Lead with the banshee to get vision for your army, and start lightly pressuring the zerg main or natural with the banshee while your tanks/marines get in position. Basically, you want to get the tank sieged up at the edge of the creep and start “leap-frogging” closer and keeping the marines spread out in front of the tanks to minimize the effectiveness of ling/baneling and tank friendly fire. If he runs in with banelings, you can run marines behind the tanks. Use your air units to get vision for maximum tank range and abuse your banshee’s high dps against queens, spines, and units. 13Minute Push: At this stage in the game, mutas, baneling speed, infestors, etc. are all possible so it’s more important than ever not to get caught with tanks unsieged. Use your air units to get you vision of your army path or (even better) use a drop to re-position his units while you advance your marine/tank army. Again, elevator tactics, marine splitting, and leap frogging are all at your disposal. If he attacks you with a lot of banelings, stim your marines and run behind the tanks to absorb the banelings.
One of the greatest aspects of this build is its versatility - you can really do anything after you start your expansion because you have access to all of terran's tech. I usually recommend standard marine/tank/medivac, but there are many other transitions: St_Rainbow Mech Style - Rainbow puts an interesting spin on the 1/1/1 to provide maximum pressure while keeping ahead in macro and tech. He skips his 2nd gas and tanks, and instead rallies marines/banshees/hellions to the zerg front and constantly pressures with the 1/1/1. By skipping gas and tanks he's able to start his expansion at 6:30 instead of 8:00. After his expansion, he puts down 2 factories and an armory and starts massing hellions for a while, and eventually swaps buildings around, uses his starport to make a reactor, and transitions into MASS hellion/thor. Eventually, he adds a 3rd base and gets to a total of 5 factors producing tanks/thors/hellions until maxed. He keeps constant upgrades on his armory to reach 2-2 by the time of his push, at which point he basically A-moves a giant mech army. Here is an example of the Rainbow opening/transition http://drop.sc/68978 (Thanks RamonMcGrady for finding this replay)
I appreciate your time and hope you found this guide helpful, - Tang
Looks like an effective build, I would have to play against it to see how i would best like to stop it. Looks like some nice pressure though coming from a zerg player.
wow this is a really nice post. i like the structured nature of each "push" phase and what to look for and how to react appropriately according to what you see. i think this way of practicing really does help all aspects of your game, even for a macro-oriented player like myself (i.e. fast expoing), especially since in my case i don't scout very well - i find i can scout much easier with these earlier pushes and react accordingly.
god post tang, nice contribution to help us novice terran players out!
The fundamentals behind this is like the other thread called.... Accelerated learning for Terrans, which is having good micro/training units etc while looking away from your base, but yours is more focused towards Zerg.
On November 24 2011 10:17 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: The fundamentals behind this is like the other thread called.... Accelerated learning for Terrans, which is having good micro/training units etc while looking away from your base, but yours is more focused towards Zerg.
I intend to do other guides more focused on TvT and TvP when time is available.
Thanks for this guide, Tang. I've been doing MVP's double reactor hellion play for the same reason: it taxes multitasking while hitting strong timings and keeping the terran in control of the game flow. It's so tempting to just kite mysoul hellions like a boss instead of macroing, and just getting through the first 10 game minutes with good scv production has been challenging. It's interesting how much just practicing the build without an opponent has improved my play.
For the longest time I've been trying to do the "standard" marine/tank/medivac pushes against zerg. I've had varying degrees of success, but I want to win all the time! lol this aggressive style makes sense, I'll try it out a few times in ladder and let you know how it goes. Thanks for the detailed post ^_^
On November 25 2011 00:43 forevernerdy wrote: quick question...what do you do if a player does like a 1base baneling bust or an aggressive two base style?
Or if they roach rush into FE as that 5 marine 1 hellion push will just not cut it...
I started out as a disbeliever, but i actually approve of your guide tang, they're definitely getting a lot better. THIS:
What makes the build such an effective tool for improving at SC2 is the fact that you’re constantly looking away from your base while building units. Whether or not you currently have the mechanics to optimally execute this style, if you follow the steps in this guide you are guaranteed to develop the solid fundamentals you need to reach higher ranks as terran.
This is so true! Aggressive styles that require a lot of micro are really good to improve with any race. Keep up the good work.
On November 25 2011 00:43 forevernerdy wrote: quick question...what do you do if a player does like a 1base baneling bust or an aggressive two base style?
Or if they roach rush into FE as that 5 marine 1 hellion push will just not cut it...
You will scout it with scv or hellion i guess, and then prepare accordingly? You need a bunker if is 1 base roach rush, or get fast tank if is FE into roach pressure (the tank will finish as the roaches approach your base)
On November 25 2011 00:43 forevernerdy wrote: quick question...what do you do if a player does like a 1base baneling bust or an aggressive two base style?
Or if they roach rush into FE as that 5 marine 1 hellion push will just not cut it...
You will scout it with scv or hellion i guess, and then prepare accordingly? You need a bunker if is 1 base roach rush, or get fast tank if is FE into roach pressure (the tank will finish as the roaches approach your base)
nice guide. that 8 minutes push looks scary!
No, the roach rush where the warren is put down after the expo, and the 2 sets of lings are out to clear the scouts. Then they block ramp with queen or lings, and get a spine or two and you either waste a scan, or play in the dark.
It's the roach ling attack that ALWAYS gets my ass... But if it hits late enough, you will have unsiege tanks there.
A good roach/ling push will get to your base at 7:15 typically. You should be able to determine if zerg is planning to be aggressive with your hellion/ling push - at which point you pull back and bunker up (You can afford to make 2-3 bunkers) Since you're going tank/banshee, you should actually hold this fairly well as long as you're on the ball with your SCV repair.
In terms of the 1base baneling bust, you should have alarm bells in your head when you see the 14gas14pool, and respond with 2-3 bunkers once again. In short, don't try to be greedy and try to hold with 0-1 bunkers if zerg is attacking you because the more units you keep alive, the more options you have to be aggressive.
Here's a question - for the 13 minute push, obviously, it would be ideal if you could keep your intial force alive to help with the push, but what if you can't? does the 13 minute timing rely on you keeping your guys alive?
On November 26 2011 00:24 boredrex wrote: Here's a question - for the 13 minute push, obviously, it would be ideal if you could keep your intial force alive to help with the push, but what if you can't? does the 13 minute timing rely on you keeping your guys alive?
This will largely depend on how much damage you do. In general, that first 8minute push is guaranteed to do quite a bit of damage - and it HAS to, because you're not expanding until the 8minute mark and that's a late expansion by TvZ standards. By all means, you can turn it into a macro game and go for a fairly fast 3rd and use your tanks and marines defensively, I just prefer to attack again at the 13minute mark so that zerg isn't allowed free-reign to macro up mutas like a beast.
Very good. I say make a Protoss version because it feels Protoss lacking..
and I have a very aggressive protoss style similar to this, macro and timing pushes, but it focuses more on harassment than anything else(warp prism) to help you shoot out an expansion.
On November 26 2011 02:58 sexdemon wrote: Very good. I say make a Protoss version because it feels Protoss lacking..
and I have a very aggressive protoss style similar to this, macro and timing pushes, but it focuses more on harassment than anything else(warp prism) to help you shoot out an expansion.
If you'd like to elaborate more on that concept in my stream thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=286050), I'll consider writing a thread or doing a 45min tutorial on aggressive protoss. Doing warp prism harass before an expansion is something I've seen but never tried myself. Kiwikaki went colossus / warp prism with speed to harass me and it was surprisingly effective.
On November 28 2011 02:56 leecx wrote: Good build is good. I've played 8 games or so with this build and when I lose it's only because i fail at macroing or microing.
Would really like moar replays though, seems like I don't deal with banelings that well and I wanna see how you'd handle it.
Yes it's harder to beat players who make a lot of lings and banelings, but your 2 banshees should kill a lot as long as he doesn't get an early scout of the starport. They'll typically only have 2-3 queens (which are spread between the bases) so your banshees can take them out and go to town on the workers. Also, hopefully you supply block them with your viking and they can't make as many lings as they would like. In terms of dealing with ling baneling, it comes down to your control and your multitasking. You need to split marines, spread them out, pull them behind tanks when banelings get close - all while keeping steady production / timings back at home.
OK gonna try that new trick with the queensnipe soon. I find that in this case being a noob zerg actually helps him because he will overproduce on units and NOT spread overlords so I can't supply block him and his mass ling/bling/lolwut will just own my stuff.
You might want to add a section about Tal'darim Altar natural cliff abuse, that shit is really effective at breaking zerg naturals. Even if he somehow manages to take you out before the hatch falls, you will take out an extractor and prevent him from going mass mass MASS(FFFUUUU-) mutas, which makes his counterattack that much weaker.
Tang, i think you should consider watching some ST_RainBOw, as he usually uses a strat very similar to this one on his stream. It has the scouting, the hellion push, the banshee, the transition -> usually into mech, which can be a valid variation.
It can help add some replays to the thread. Keep it up, very good work I may add.
On November 30 2011 14:37 RamonMcGrady wrote: Tang, i think you should consider watching some ST_RainBOw, as he usually uses a strat very similar to this one on his stream. It has the scouting, the hellion push, the banshee, the transition -> usually into mech, which can be a valid variation.
It can help add some replays to the thread. Keep it up, very good work I may add.
Thanks for the advice Ramon, I'll look for a few of his games - do you have a link, in particular with the mech transition you suggest?
You should be able to determine if zerg is planning to be aggressive with your hellion/ling push - at which point
your hellion/ling push
Hellion/ling sounds like a gosu composition - not sure how you'd get it.
Joking aside, this seems like a really good build. As another poster said, I, too, have found that building micro-intensive units makes my mechanics much more efficient. You learn to take less time to macro/build supply when you need to keep attention on a fragile unit or unit composition.
ive played with this build a couple times just now and i gotta say, i thought it seemed a little allinish in theory, but after playing it, it felt awesome. its way easier to be aggressive when you specifically plan out each push and lead with a solid 1-base attack.
1-1-1 can be done in many ways. I always opt for the hellion marine blue flame double medic drop/elevator with a quick 2 vikings into cloakshees.
Late late late late late expo. However, it does greeeeeeeeeeeeat damage. Here's a random example of a game vs 650 or something masters on my friends name (im a troll smurf)
Hmm...Now to commit all of this to memory and roflstomp every Zerg on ladder when I get Terran because I now know how to set up, execute, and kill with proper marine tank after a fun opening.
doesn't mass speedling just crush the push at 8:00? Even if not, you give 5 mins to let the zerg do whatever he wants before you push again at 13:00? I'd hardly call that hyperaggressive.
edit: I tried this build twice on ladder because you obviously a lot of thought into the guide, so I was hoping it would work, but I got crushed by mass speedling as i suspected. Perhaps metal was not a good map to do it on, it's too easy to flank.
my point about 5 min in between attacks being way too long still holds though. And it's not like you can just push earlier; there is just no way you can produce enough to be threatening because of how late your expansion and production buildings get up.
On December 01 2011 16:11 boboyo wrote: doesn't mass speedling just crush the push at 8:00? Even if not, you give 5 mins to let the zerg do whatever he wants before you push again at 13:00? I'd hardly call that hyperaggressive.
In theory, you can skip seige tech and just rally your 1/1/1 starting at 5minutes and just constantly attack all game. The 8-minute push is a time when most zerg don't have adequate defenses to cost-effectively deal with banshee/tank/marine. If he's massing that many lings, he won't have a 3rd base and you should be able to scout his ling count with vikings/banshee or that hellion from earlier. If he's massing crazy amounts of units to the point where you don't think you can do damage with the 8minute push, just use the units defensively with seige tech and expand and do a slightly later push (before 13minutes)
Bump for greatness. Tried the build on ladder today (in a team game with a useless partner). Worked pretty well. I think this build is worth a shot in all match ups because of the versatility of marines and banshees and the tank damage.
On December 02 2011 08:42 NoisyNinja wrote: Tried the build on ladder today (in a team game with a useless partner). Worked pretty well. I think this build is worth a shot in all match ups because of the versatility of marines and banshees and the tank damage.
It's definitely viable in all match ups, though you need vikings in TvT. It's actually great in team games if you can convince your ally to do an 8minute push with you, and you may need a bunker if they go for some sort of bust.
On November 30 2011 14:37 RamonMcGrady wrote: Tang, i think you should consider watching some ST_RainBOw, as he usually uses a strat very similar to this one on his stream. It has the scouting, the hellion push, the banshee, the transition -> usually into mech, which can be a valid variation.
It can help add some replays to the thread. Keep it up, very good work I may add.
Thanks for the advice Ramon, I'll look for a few of his games - do you have a link, in particular with the mech transition you suggest?
Let me search for a little bit on his VOD's and as soon as I have an especific, very informative game to show of his, or maybe a couple, i'll make sure to get you the link.
I have really horrible judgement on whether or not to hit him at 8 minutes >.>. By the way, what's the order of adding buildings after the push? (transition). I've been doing rax-bay-rax but it still seems like there's a very long period of time where only one marine is produced per cycle (VERY VERY VULNERABLE). What always happens to me is after I kill the natural I gtfo and run back to base, but they tend to chase me with lings and the marines without stim cant kill the mass mass zerglings (just produced) very quickly so I end up pushing with a half sized army at 13 (which generally gets raped). I don't see any window to expand before 13 so I usually expand at 13, which is already later than the zerg, but after they crush my army I can't defend it. In this kind of situation would it be better just to sit in base and turtle or sneak a ninja expo? I find that if I get past this stage of the game I'm generally fine.
On December 04 2011 23:45 leecx wrote: I have really horrible judgement on whether or not to hit him at 8 minutes >.>. By the way, what's the order of adding buildings after the push? (transition). I've been doing rax-bay-rax but it still seems like there's a very long period of time where only one marine is produced per cycle (VERY VERY VULNERABLE). What always happens to me is after I kill the natural I gtfo and run back to base, but they tend to chase me with lings and the marines without stim cant kill the mass mass zerglings (just produced) very quickly so I end up pushing with a half sized army at 13 (which generally gets raped). I don't see any window to expand before 13 so I usually expand at 13, which is already later than the zerg, but after they crush my army I can't defend it. In this kind of situation would it be better just to sit in base and turtle or sneak a ninja expo? I find that if I get past this stage of the game I'm generally fine.
Well if you're feeling vulnerable after the push, or you scout he's making a lot of lings, just stay with 1/1/1 and get bunkers at your expansion. Marines/bunkers/1-2 banshees and a few tanks will hold any ground pushes from zerg and if you've killed their hatch and your expansion is up, you're MILES ahead and just need to not die. Maybe just add an engi bay and 2 barracks and switch the starport with the first barracks (so you can double produce medivacs and get stim).
OMG i'm starting to love this build LOL i do it in all matchups just use different air units and its been a lot of fun. i actually like getting 1 medivac instead of banshee so if zerg gets this giant ground army i can lift off 2 of my tanks or my marines and save them...or do some drop harass after the push,etc. almost never die to counter attacks, the push always seems to kill enough to at least keep zerg ont he back foot and the games ive lost have been to playrs who go fast mutas, but thats only cuz i get a very late engi bay and messed up on scouting and harassing.
Ok Tang, here is ST_Rainbow on yesterday's NA Playhem Daily doing it to a Zerg. It is not EXACTLY what you say, as he transitions onto mech upon the 5 marine - 1 hellion push -> you'll see that he keeps pushing with marines, hellions and banshees to force the opponent to commit to units and to avoid droning.
On December 01 2011 16:11 boboyo wrote: doesn't mass speedling just crush the push at 8:00? Even if not, you give 5 mins to let the zerg do whatever he wants before you push again at 13:00? I'd hardly call that hyperaggressive.
edit: I tried this build twice on ladder because you obviously a lot of thought into the guide, so I was hoping it would work, but I got crushed by mass speedling as i suspected. Perhaps metal was not a good map to do it on, it's too easy to flank.
my point about 5 min in between attacks being way too long still holds though. And it's not like you can just push earlier; there is just no way you can produce enough to be threatening because of how late your expansion and production buildings get up.
Would love to see the replay where your gold league macro fails and you blame the build.
On December 06 2011 01:38 RamonMcGrady wrote: Ok Tang, here is ST_Rainbow on yesterday's NA Playhem Daily doing it to a Zerg. It is not EXACTLY what you say, as he transitions onto mech upon the 5 marine - 1 hellion push -> you'll see that he keeps pushing with marines, hellions and banshees to force the opponent to commit to units and to avoid droning.
tyvm for finding that, it's actually really cool he goes hellions instead of tanks and just rallies his barracks/factory/starport and streams marine/hellion/banshee. By skipping tanks he only needs 1 gas and so can get an earlier expansion (6:30), then puts down 2 factories and an armory shortly after. He starts massing hellions for a bit until his armory is done, then starts making thors and hellions. The starport eventually gets a reactor for the 3rd factory and you make hellions/thors off 3 factories. Eventually you add a 3rd base and a fourth and fifth factory and just keep massing thor/tank/hellions until maxed. Keep constant upgrades and push and you should be like 2-1 or 2-2 by maxed out then you pretty much A-move.
1/1/1 builds tend to have many different types of units, do you have any advice on an effective control group scheme for this build? I'm having trouble figuring how many hotkeys I need to leave for units, how does 1 for marines and medivacs, 1 for tanks, 1 for hellions then later for banshees sound?
thankyou. my TvZ winrate has shot up by about 800% because of this
the only games where i tend to lose are where i overcommit to an earlier push rather than realising i cant do much damage so its better to just walk home safe allowing the follow-up push to be stronger while still having done the indirect damage of not letting him drone too freely
How does this do against a zerg that posts up 4 - 5 spines and techs straight up to muta with ling support? I feel as though this build is subject to being countered by moderately fast mutas or if the zerg decides to tech up first rather than all out macro first, tech later. Otherwise, I would love aggressive terran play.
On December 06 2011 01:38 RamonMcGrady wrote: Ok Tang, here is ST_Rainbow on yesterday's NA Playhem Daily doing it to a Zerg. It is not EXACTLY what you say, as he transitions onto mech upon the 5 marine - 1 hellion push -> you'll see that he keeps pushing with marines, hellions and banshees to force the opponent to commit to units and to avoid droning.
tyvm for finding that, it's actually really cool he goes hellions instead of tanks and just rallies his barracks/factory/starport and streams marine/hellion/banshee. By skipping tanks he only needs 1 gas and so can get an earlier expansion (6:30), then puts down 2 factories and an armory shortly after. He starts massing hellions for a bit until his armory is done, then starts making thors and hellions. The starport eventually gets a reactor for the 3rd factory and you make hellions/thors off 3 factories. Eventually you add a 3rd base and a fourth and fifth factory and just keep massing thor/tank/hellions until maxed. Keep constant upgrades and push and you should be like 2-1 or 2-2 by maxed out then you pretty much A-move.
You brought some more detail than what I could grasp upon seeing the VOD. Actually, I think it might be reactionary -> mutas coming? you need faster thors. Just mass upgraded roach? You may need a little less hellions, a little more gas and tanks.
Just saw that you put it up on the transitions section, but you forgot to add the link to the VOD
Keep it up, it's quite helpful.
PS: It's RamonMcGrady, with the 'Mc' thing in the middle, as on the Tracy McGrady NBA player ^^ gl hf!!
On December 06 2011 01:38 RamonMcGrady wrote: Ok Tang, here is ST_Rainbow on yesterday's NA Playhem Daily doing it to a Zerg. It is not EXACTLY what you say, as he transitions onto mech upon the 5 marine - 1 hellion push -> you'll see that he keeps pushing with marines, hellions and banshees to force the opponent to commit to units and to avoid droning.
tyvm for finding that, it's actually really cool he goes hellions instead of tanks and just rallies his barracks/factory/starport and streams marine/hellion/banshee. By skipping tanks he only needs 1 gas and so can get an earlier expansion (6:30), then puts down 2 factories and an armory shortly after. He starts massing hellions for a bit until his armory is done, then starts making thors and hellions. The starport eventually gets a reactor for the 3rd factory and you make hellions/thors off 3 factories. Eventually you add a 3rd base and a fourth and fifth factory and just keep massing thor/tank/hellions until maxed. Keep constant upgrades and push and you should be like 2-1 or 2-2 by maxed out then you pretty much A-move.
You brought some more detail than what I could grasp upon seeing the VOD. Actually, I think it might be reactionary -> mutas coming? you need faster thors. Just mass upgraded roach? You may need a little less hellions, a little more gas and tanks.
Just saw that you put it up on the transitions section, but you forgot to add the link to the VOD
Keep it up, it's quite helpful.
PS: It's RamonMcGrady, with the 'Mc' thing in the middle, as on the Tracy McGrady NBA player ^^ gl hf!!
ive kind of blended the st_rainbow and Tang style...so ive been trying the 6:30 expansion and a couple extra hellions and THEN get 2nd gas and start producing tanks right away. it lets you put on a lot more pressure early, but then your 8min push is either weaker or comes later. i lik eto pressure with the hellions/marines and then actually keep the tanks seiged back at my expansion and pressure again when i have a banshee (and rally the 2nd banshee) to try to pick off a queen and some drones. its a lot more harass and requires more multitasking and has a smaller chance of winning the game outright, but its good practice. havent tried mech transitions i like the marine/tnak/medi but when i do some ill let you know how it goes
On December 08 2011 23:37 forevernerdy wrote: ive kind of blended the st_rainbow and Tang style...so ive been trying the 6:30 expansion and a couple extra hellions and THEN get 2nd gas and start producing tanks right away. it lets you put on a lot more pressure early, but then your 8min push is either weaker or comes later. i lik eto pressure with the hellions/marines and then actually keep the tanks seiged back at my expansion and pressure again when i have a banshee (and rally the 2nd banshee) to try to pick off a queen and some drones. its a lot more harass and requires more multitasking and has a smaller chance of winning the game outright, but its good practice. havent tried mech transitions i like the marine/tnak/medi but when i do some ill let you know how it goes
I feel you are too eager to push, with just 1 banshee...maybe you should wait the second one almost finished and third on the way? Like, just push 30 seconds later and you are good to go...we should really see some replays though.
On December 07 2011 03:28 pingy[wen] wrote: How does this do against a zerg that posts up 4 - 5 spines and techs straight up to muta with ling support? I feel as though this build is subject to being countered by moderately fast mutas or if the zerg decides to tech up first rather than all out macro first, tech later. Otherwise, I would love aggressive terran play.
Well if he makes 3or more queens, 5 spines and enough lings he will keep you out completely. But that's a pretty significant investment for a zerg to be making that much defense at the 7-8 minute mark, which means you can pull back and with your 8min expansion not be behind. That much defense will slow down his ability to get mutas quickly, giving you time to get an engi and whichever midgame transition you choose.
The layout and quality of the OP is so crystal clear, I'd feel stupid NOT trying it. Clearly, more high-level English majors need to be writing guides.
On December 13 2011 06:53 Ghostfoot wrote: JW could more replays be produced? I feel like there is something wrong with my execution because this build stopped working for me :/
Set a benchmark at 8minutes and make sure you're getting 3tank2banshee 14ish marines and an expansion by then. If you're not, the problem is in your early game. If that push isn't doing damage, it's your execution of the attack, and if you're losing later your transition is probably a bit off, at which point you should set another benchmark for 13minutes.
Thank you Tang. I used to do a rector hellion play then transition into marine tank, but I find this build is slightly more aggressive. Maybe it's just the set timings but I have a crazy 80% win rate against zerg right now!
Also I recorded a bunch of the games I played with this style and I'm putting them on youtube. Sure I'm only in plat and have room for improvement, but it does give a different perspective.
I'd love to see a few more replays of this, if I get past the 15 min mark I always end up losing and I want to see how people manage to gain the advantage against mass Zerg armies with this build. If anyone of a decent standard has any replays of games using this build, I'd love you to post them up here. Great build, has worked wonders for my absolutely awful TvZ
Excellent post sir. Just the tweaks I needed for my 1-1-1 timing attack vs zerg. I have been doing a very similar push vs z with about 12 rines, 2-3 tanks (no siege mode) and 2 banshees at about 7:30 mins into the game. A lot of the times I would win the game right there, but when I didn't I found it really hard to transition out of it and not die to the zerg counter attack. Also, your scouting tips are extremely useful, thanks a lot!
On December 20 2011 23:51 Kabras wrote: Excellent post sir. Just the tweaks I needed for my 1-1-1 timing attack vs zerg. I have been doing a very similar push vs z with about 12 rines, 2-3 tanks (no siege mode) and 2 banshees at about 7:30 mins into the game. A lot of the times I would win the game right there, but when I didn't I found it really hard to transition out of it and not die to the zerg counter attack. Also, your scouting tips are extremely useful, thanks a lot!
I find the siege mode to be absolutely crucial, otherwise mass zergling is so cost effective against your marine/tank. Scouting, like you mention, is also extremely important because in some circumstances (Like against a player who does a roach/ling or roach/ling baneling 2base push), it's actually correct to use your tanks to turtle and just build your expansion in your main to stay ahead.
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