EPT[H] Mid-masters, completely stuck ZvP cannot win.
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
The first agressive move I do on most maps, is to plant my hatchery on their expansion if they try to FFE. This delays their FFE by more than a minute if you do it properly, and easily pays back the 75-150 minerals you lose cancelling said hatch. It more often than not also forces an extra cannon, if he doesn't want to wait for his first Zealot to stop you from keeping up the rebuilding of the hatch everytime it nears completion. This alone delays a 6-7gate with up to a minute. It delays 2sg openers even longer. If I fail on getting the hatch down at his natural, my agressive move is getting early ling upgrades. 1/1 lings deal extremely well with massive gateway pushes, if you engage it early enough. My 2c | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
a pretty straightforward way to dealing with ffe. Greedy protoss deserves to have this done to them, and I feel like you absolutely have to be aggressive. And make them spend there money elsewhere than tech and probes or risk dying. People keep calling it semi all in or cheese but thats a bit unfair considering doing anything to get ahead on macro that isnt safe is just as cheesy. Either way going the 1 base roach pressure/all in means you control the temp of where the protoss spends his money and additionally keeps him on his heels since he has no scouting for a while. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
if they do manage to get in their and kill your third, contain them, send lings to their nat or third. OR go kill their natural. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. On November 22 2011 23:01 Rebs wrote: http://sc2casts.com/cast6367-Naniwa-vs-Leenock-2-Best-of-3s-MLG-Providence-2011-Finals a pretty straightforward way to dealing with ffe. Greedy protoss deserves to have this done to them, and I feel like you absolutely have to be aggressive. And make them spend there money elsewhere than tech and probes or risk dying. People keep calling it semi all in or cheese but thats a bit unfair considering doing anything to get ahead on macro that isnt safe is just as cheesy. Either way going the 1 base roach pressure/all in means you control the temp of where the protoss spends his money and additionally keeps him on his heels since he has no scouting for a while. you really suggest roach all in when he asks what to do in zvp?^^ Also in that game where you linked leenock failed to bust him so dunno why you even post that. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Rohan
United Kingdom83 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:07 Alpina wrote: Well there are a lot of ways to kill protoss :D i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. you really suggest roach all in when he asks what to do in zvp?^^ Also in that game where you linked leenock failed to bust him so dunno why you even post that. Not to slam you here or anything, but if a Protoss player wanders into your base with +1 zealots and you only have lings and queens you're going to get destroyed in the most comical way possible. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
droning too hard not scouting or both. User was warned for this post | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:18 Rohan wrote: Not to slam you here or anything, but if a Protoss player wanders into your base with +1 zealots and you only have lings and queens you're going to get destroyed in the most comical way possible. well since nowadays early +1 zealot pressure is common you can make 1 spine in 3rd just in case, then 2 queens + spine and few lings gonna defend no problem. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
If they do want to do some 7 gate shenanigans, I make a million zerglings on top of my already standing ~25 Roach army and destroy his army AND third. Then take my third after he's done sobbing about me not letting him out of his base. If I don't see aggression coming. Hey insta-free saturation. User was warned for this post | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:07 Alpina wrote: Well there are a lot of ways to kill protoss :D i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. you really suggest roach all in when he asks what to do in zvp?^^ Also in that game where you linked leenock failed to bust him so dunno why you even post that. sigh.. yea and thats actually better because its an example of where it can go wrong by allowing scouting. Theres 4 games all with either busts or pressure transitions after that to maybe take a look at those before being critical, because you know when you criticize with incomplete info your just a douchebag. Either way it isnt intended to kill, but can if the toss is to greedy. And really +1 lings and blings to hold 7 gate ? Thats got to be against the most retarded toss who doesnt know where the +1 on attack starts on his forge and presses G while trying to forcefield. Youd need ridiculously good flanking and maybe maybe hold of the 7 gate. You will lose a third most of the time,infact the current korean meta even the muta transition is off usually of roach pressure when the toss goes forge fe. | ||
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XcelShark
Bulgaria17 Posts
1.In the game against prOpOink on shakuras plateau you got way behind in economy from the start of the game.Your hatches at the natural and at the third were very late so you lacked drones.This resulted in lack of units when he pushed you so that is the reason you lost the third without even giving reasonable fight. Your natural ended up late because of the pylon block and that's the reason most zergs go for early pool like 11 overpool. - if forces protoss to be little bit on their toes because of the early zerglings and it helps you deal with the probe harass and put the hatches down in time. The second very big thing in that game was that took a very early gas for that type of play. - you wasted a drone with an extractor that you didn't use for a while and then you started mining gas when you barely had minerals for support drone production.When protoss FFE's i think you can delay the ling speed a lot more. -your overlord that scouted his base saw only some gateways being started and you did have another around his base . And without seeing DT shrine or stargate you put down a lot of spores which cut a lot of resource and drones early in the game.Next time make sure to use all the ways possible to get the information you need before starting to prepare for everything.When you end up behind from the beginning little things like this decide the outcome of the game. : ) I think those are the big things that lost you that game otherwise i don't see any strategic flaws . The upgrades were good decision the roach warren and the delayed lair also. : ) 2.The second game on Shakuras Plateau against DrSmoke was a lot better but the thing that killed you i think was that you overdroned and didn't have enough units for the push. - Your hatches were late again because of the late pool and the pylon block but that just made your economy even with the protoss instead of shooting you up in supply. - Your overlord scout saw everything you needed . The fast collossi play. So the roach / corrutor mix would have been ok but you made around 17 drones just before he moved out and if those were roaches it would have been a different story.Even the collossi were without the range upgrade. - Then some little things like upgrading +1 melee when you are going roaches is not preferable if you have no plan to use them lings that early. 3.The game on metalopolis you chose fast 3 bases against 3 gate expand player but he didn't punish you for that and it would have been ok but you overdroned a bit and you made 20 lings in a time where you didn't really have to , which slowed down your economy.If you had made drones instead of those lings and you were hitting all of your larvae injects you would have crushed the push . 4.The game on Nerazim Crypt was just messed up from the beginning.He went for Nexus first and you didn't apply instant pressure so he had a lot more probes than you had drones.And then he was extra greedy so you managed to get some damage with the roaches but then you also had to build 10 spores(and btw 10 spores is too much) and fell behind in workers again.And for me there the game ends.You just didn't react in time to punish the nexus first and then you overreacted to the stargate play. | ||
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getdeadplz
United States116 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:07 Alpina wrote: Well there are a lot of ways to kill protoss :D i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. In all honesty this strategy is countered by a 7 gate hard maybe on a mapp like shattered temple you'll have a prayer but ff will sheild the toss from you melee units. To OP i have been having success still with 11 OVERPOOL into 18 hatch then taking a third around 33 supply you need to send in a few overlord throughout the game one at the 7: min mark is the biggest... 7:20 i believe is the stargate timing no matter what i like to throw down 2 gas roach warren and evo at 7 min and my overlord start his entrance soon after. STARGATE PLAY If your overlord scouts stargate 3 spores a base and drone hard with only a few lings on the map. HEAVY GATES if you see mass gates going down you should mass ling roach til the push and when you have a sufficent roach count (I like about 10) use 200 gas for spire. continue ling roach production til an attack or expand and as soon as he pushes crushes and if he expands for the engagement. LATER TRANSITION when you crush the first push make about 8 mutas send to the base take 2 expos and go into a heavy ling muta spine compisition, throw down infestation pit, baneling nest, and tech to hive. at this point you should be at around 2-1 upgrades and be focsing on an ultra muta bane and a medium size ling army to crush the protss death ball. I will edit my post after watch replays when i arrive home tonight but i thought it was nessary to give my 2c on the match -up first  hope i helped this is one of my first post im working on the teamliquid way so if i do anything wrong feel free to pm me about it so i can do better in the future. Goodluck with zvp and hope this improves your experience! | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:41 Rebs wrote: sigh.. yea and thats actually better because its an example of where it can go wrong by allowing scouting. Theres 4 games all with either busts or pressure transitions after that to maybe take a look at those before being critical, because you know when you criticize with incomplete info your just a douchebag. Either way it isnt intended to kill, but can if the toss is to greedy. And really +1 lings and blings to hold 7 gate ? Thats got to be against the most retarded toss who doesnt know where the +1 on attack starts on his forge and presses G while trying to forcefield. You will lose a third most of the time,infact the current korean meta even the muta transition is off usually of roach pressure when the toss goes forge fe. Youd need ridiculously good flanking and maybe maybe hold of the 7 gate. roach bust with hatch cancel is complete all in and I saw it many times pros doing and always fail. Maybe on map like xel naga or metalopolis if toss is doing FFE, but on other maps it's just don't work vs. anyone who knows how to defend. and yeah I usually (not always ofc) defend 7 gate with just mass lings even without banelings. You get 4 hatches with 4 queens and ling production is just insane. Of course if toss is doing 7 gate on a map like antiga and goes straight to 3rd killing rocks then you probably going to lose 3rd, but in such a small choke it will be very hard to defend no matter what units you got. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
This happens to me with every MU, some MU feels really easy at times and some MU feels impossible, just watch some pro games and copy them or take a short break. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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fubusama
74 Posts
vs FFE: (before 7minute mark) Roach/Ling all-in Quick 3rd (4 minute) vs 6/7 gate Rush (~9minute) Roach w/ Burrow vs Stargate Queens, Evo/spores, Drones (drones are the key here) It's usually a tight battle when those mid-game attacks come from toss, but as long as you're hitting your injects you should be able to just barley hold it; saturate your 3rd then run him over. | ||
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zazzn
Canada54 Posts
On Antiga or abyss you can 7 pool and usually hope that they don't scout you first, because 90% of protoss are greedy and will ffe that map... you transition in to droning right away and do what ever damage you can do then go in to a normal game. Shakurus you can do the spine cheese by gasing at 14 and pooling at 13 and just making sure he doesn't 3 pilon wall you. Get speed with you first 100 then next 100 goes to lair and spine him and drone up to about 30.... I make 4-5 roaches with the spines and nothing but lings to follow up. usually does so much damage because they are not ready... Especially good if they go void or phoneix. Another way to play on the maps where they are FFE is to not be so greedy... 14 pool, drone to 15, try to expand if he blocks make 1 set of lings and a queen. Also take a gas, and expand when you can or take 3rd spot..You'll want to use the lings to see if he's making zealots to do the kiwikaki zealot bulid up to kill /stall the 3rd... if you see more than 1-2 zealots I make a roach warren at the 5:30-6:00 min mark and make 3-4 roaches. I also get a fairly fast lair shortly after because my army at the 8:00-9:00 mark is going to be a bunch of ling/hydra's. This will stop any type of air harassment, any gateway all in garbage. The lings are usually made before the hydras 16-20 just to make sure he cannot move out right away and stall long enough for my better econ to kick in. Meanwhile drop tech should have been researching soon after the lair was done and you should have been on all 4 gas when the lair was 1/2 way done. This also stops DT because the fast lair will allow overseeers really quick..... After you stop any sort of early aggression, you expand 2 more times possibly 3 if you can... You will always lose 1/2 during the fighting and your goal is to split his army if he pulled back and is going cols to fight the hydras....Your drop tech should be done and he'll probably be going to expand... as he does that you need to drop the main with 3 lords full of hydra/roach drop the natural, and all newly created units kill the 3rd..... the drops at the main and natural are not to be lost just to make him move his army so you can kill the 3rd.... By about that time all your corruptors should be coming out and your army would be in OL's picked up after doing the harass attack... you'll be making a bunch more men at your base, and teching to hive.... When the are in place you attack the front door with the new units corruptors come from the back and you drop again back on the main and natural.... if you don't win the game there you will at least have killed his cols traded a good amount of army and while you reloading with units you'll also going to morph the corruptors in to BL and win the game. Basically, I now understand if you stay on tier 2 tech vs toss you will almost ALWAYS lose unless they are just crap. You can get away with no BL/Ultra on Terran and zerg but not on toss you absolutely need BL because you can never trade properly with toss and especially when you have to have 80 drones of supply along with queens and all sorts of other crap that eats up supply form army. | ||
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zazzn
Canada54 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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woralo
Netherlands1 Post
I have been playing SC 1 and 2 from the start. And I can remember zerg being the race that is to fast expand. Now in SC2 it's protoss which does the expanding versus zerg. And to me this changes the whole game. This make protoss the race, zerg should be. Why is protoss able to FFE and come out stronger then zerg which should have that role. In SC 1 races had to battle and do their very best to deny zerg's fast expansion. Whilest now protoss doesn't even need to make a real effort. What''s even worse is that protoss can just fast expand and deny zergs natural fe by just placing a probe or pylon in it's building grid. Which sets zerg back some additional time before expanding. Ofcourse you can expand to a non-natural location, but I guess I don't have to explain what the downside about that is. This only delays him further. It's a lott harder for zerg to deny protoss then it is for protoss to deny zerg. Which doesn't make any sense at this point. Ofcourse you can try to do something against FFE, but it simply should not be this way and I think blizzard should do something about it. Here are the things I am currently trying to do vs FFE. - 6 pool Strangely enough 6 pool works like a mirracle versus FFE, but the downside is. It's a gamble. You are never sure if protoss does FFE, and if they don't you're pretty much screwed. So it's not that viable. - Spine crawler rush This can work with some good effort, however it's another all in play and you might ending up just killing the wall buildings while protoss still goes on harvesting. So another bad tactic to be using every game. I do sometimes try this when my natural is denied. I've got the minerals and P might have wasted some minerals on a pylon or even a canon at my natural. However it still doesn't work against the better players. - Overpool 11 pool extractor trick is still something I am trying to balance towards FFE. Sometimes it works, however on maps like metalopolis where buildings oftenly are walled towards protoss' natural it's less effective. If I see P has too many canons up or my zerlings just won't cut it, I will try transitioning into banelings to bust the wall or canons. However this is another all in, considering the amounts of minerals and gas you need to spend on it. I think the key to overpooling versus FFE is not to be scouted. Or at least letting zerg think you're going to macro. If they spot your zerlings or overpool, they will simply put another canon up and you're done for. - nidus rush This seems like the ultimate solution and I've won with this many times. but the biggest problem is getting the nidus to pop. Sure in silver, gold and sometimes in plat you can still get this to work. but top players in most leagues wil just spot it and deny your nidus. And if you're nidus is denied, you're pretty much screwed. - Hydra timing Another tactic that will or can work some times, but also very risky. 2 base to let's say 12 hydra's and some zerlings or roaches can do the trick, but you have to watch out where the protoss is at. If he has just enough to hold it off, which happens most of the time you are screwed again. However the upside is, you can easily snipe the wall and protoss might nog have that much of an army yet. You might even get to kill his first colossus if he's rushing. So what can you do, to delay protoss? Because you will need him to be delayed as much as possible. - Make it look like you're going into agressive play, to get him to build more canons/units/wall off structures. - Make it look like you are going into macro play which will keep his defense to minimum. How? Seen at providence there was a hatch cancel into roach aggression, which was beautiful. Too bad zerg lost that match even after that effort, but Naniwa was just fucking sick. The beautiful part about the hatch cancel was the timing of the cancel. It wasn't just canceled after the first scout, but just before being done. Making sure that if scouted again protoss would still think zerg would be all on macro play. One key element to any of the early timing attacks is to not be scouted or at least not fully. If scouted protoss can easily defend against almost any of the tactics you can imagine. And that's what makes it so unfair imo. User was warned for this post | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20287 Posts
On November 23 2011 00:58 fubusama wrote: Here are some options: vs FFE: (before 7minute mark) Roach/Ling all-in Quick 3rd (4 minute) vs 6/7 gate Rush (~9minute) Roach w/ Burrow vs Stargate Queens, Evo/spores, Drones (drones are the key here) It's usually a tight battle when those mid-game attacks come from toss, but as long as you're hitting your injects you should be able to just barley hold it; saturate your 3rd then run him over. 6gate can hit well before 9 minutes, if you allow him to warp forward with his first cycle all of his units will be in your base before 8 | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
Proxy hatch, Roach ling rush (with our w/o hatch cancel), early nydus/drop with or w/o hydra and zerg rush kekekekeke User was warned for this post | ||
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Girondelle
France969 Posts
As for the scouting, park an overlord near his gazes, see when he takes his 3th and 4th gaz. You can send a ling to see if he is upgrading +1, that's a big indicator of heavy gateway play. If you suspect heavy gateway play start making units around 8min10. I recommend you check the Day[9] daily about starving your opponent between IdrA and HuK, you can copy IdrA's opening, its really great. User was warned for this post | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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Slivered Skin
Canada347 Posts
If you're losing to 7-gate timings, I'm guessing that there's something wrong with your scouting, so I'll actually focus on that while watching the replays. Game 1 vs PrOpOink: You scout the front, see +1 being researched at roughly the 6 minute mark. That should already be a tip-off that he's going for some kind of timing, as it's extremely early. If you look at his vision in the game, you'll see that it was actually the first place where he invested gas. This allows you to rule out certain stargate-based or early robo timings. Next, you send in an overlord. You see the cybercore with warpgate being chronoboosted. This is the perfect tell that toss is going for some kind of timing attack. Prepare accordingly. Also, at this stage in the game, you take your lings away from the towers and the front of his base to deal with the zealot but don't but them back. Instead, you sac them for...nothing? However, you did get to see that his entire army was composed of 3 sentries. You then send in another overlord, see another chrono on his warpgate tech, and see the 3 sentries again. You should absolutely know what's coming at this point. Stargate has been ruled out, robo has mostly been ruled out since he doesn't actually have an immortal/colossus at this stage in the game, which leaves pure gateway, most likely some kind of all-in push. You should really be pumping pure units at this stage (we're at 8:50) but instead you wait until the 10 min mark. One last thing: you got supply blocked in three different places that game. It really cuts down on your drone production. At the 9 min mark, you had an abyssal 41 drones off of three bases, while in a random replay I pulled of IdrA's he hit 41 drones at the 7:20 mark against roughly the same build. Game 2 vs festEviliL: Yikes, in this game you grab a quick third completely blind. You don't scout his front to see his expo timing, his unit comp, or anything before you sac your overlord at the 7:15 mark. He could have been going for a nexus-cancel 5-gate, DT expand, you name it - you would have died to it. Scout with your opening lings more. When you do send your lings and your ovie in, you see 6 sentries off of 2 gasses with +1 getting researched. That accounts for a very large portion of his gas, and chances are he isn't teching at this stage. In my eyes, this is suspicious. After that first poke with the lings, you don't poke any further. You don't try to see his comp, or if he's chronoing +1 or getting his nat gasses. Work on this. You essentially died to late 4-gate pressure this game. He attacked with units accumulated off of 3 gates, and in my opinion, you could have crushed him with just one more round of units. It all comes down to preparation. By the way, in this game your drone count was much higher because you only really got supply blocked once, at 26 food. At 9 mins, you had 52 drones. A thing that I noticed this game, though, was that you look at your base too much. Try to look at your base as little as possible, and at your army as much as possible. Keep poking, prodding, scouting, denying scouts, etc. Hopefully I helped! ^^ EDIT: PLEASE WATCH REPLAYS PEOPLE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THING HOLY >.< | ||
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FMJ
United States169 Posts
If you have or don't care about the outcome: + Show Spoiler + The final was Leenock(Z) vs. Naniwa(P). Naniwa FFEs EVERY SINGLE GAME. Leenock even wins vs. Naniwa in a match where he opens 6 pool Considering that your opponents are no where near Naniwa, and you're nowhere near Leenock, I think there's a lot you can work on before blaming the matchup. User was warned for this post | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
but I would suggest playing pvz a little bit in addition to knowing the timings in order to give you a better feel for the matchup... especially in mid masters you can afford to be safe against both of those openings and still be solid im sure you know when to double ovie scout and speedling scout the front... just don't get discouraged and keep having fun... I would say that the key is to keep track of where his gas is going.. ovies/burrowed lings at his third, lings at the towers and the ramp it's kinda ironic to me to see this post right now as it seems like in the current metagame z has the uppper hand in zvp o.0 | ||
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
You just let him run up into your ramp and force field off your third? Dont you have vision of his army? Map control is key. How can the two stargate build deny your third? I mean lol, a stargate takes 65 second to build and a void ray takes 45 seconds to make. Thats 110. Counting chronoboost, its probably around 80 seconds. So if a hatchery takes 80 seconds to make and 20 second travel time for the void rays, shouldnt your third be up by the time they make two stargates? Thats enough time to make spores, isnt it? And BTW, I only respond to one startgate with Hydras. Two stargatse then I get a few hydras and then I transition into mass corruptors. Not only do Corruptors do nicely against phoenix and are pretty decent against void rays with focus fire and corruption, they deal with the inevitable colossus transition. I had trouble with a 7gate but I have mastered it and I can safely say the best response is speed +1 Roaches after you drone up a crapton. Make three spines at the ramp of your third if you're really afraid of a force field off and start making mass speedroach. Make sure you know where his army is most of the time. If you dont, then he may try that bullcrap where he force fields off your third. Just make two pairs of lings and sac a ling to see where his army is every now and then. User was warned for this post | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
Open 11 overpool and 18 hatch, what I like to do, is hide my lings if he hasn't scouted me yet, and wait for him to try the cannon rush. Generally the protoss will scout the hatch assume 15 hatch and cannon rush. This means they will save up some money which isn't going into a nexus. Best time to show lings is about halfway through the pylon being morphed so he doesn't suddenly throw down more than you can chew. After denying whatever he does take your 3rd IMMEDIATELY I'm talking 18 hatch 20 hatch practically as soon as you can afford it. Then just drone. You should be able to make about 60 drones before any aggression (well I mean like 7g or pheonix) pops. If he does 2 stargate pheonix you can instead of getting spire get hydralisk and go roach hydra. After you get your natural up throw down 1 gas and a roach warren and a evo chamber for safe measures. Once you get about 50 food throw down 3 more gas. You should be on 4 gas on 3 base with about 50~ drones. Now you make about 6-10 spines (less if he goes something airish, more if he goes something gateway heavy). Once you get 3 base saturation make mutalisk with gas and spines with minerals (well drones first obviously) Then just make sure he doesns'tmove out and if he does go for base race User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
Getting an evo by a certain time, and scouting timing of his gases combined with scouting if hes getting quick +1 or not. Then scouting the timing of his 2 gases in his natural. Later suiciding at about 8:30-9:00 is a good time to check if fast +1 turns into +2 blink, collosus, or w/e else. My personal style is ling roach into 3/4 base muta with 4 hatches. I make a macro hatch if he opens up with voidray or a hatch at another base if he opens up with fast +1. (to clarify I mean fast +1 that would delay regular stargate timing) Ofcourse I could be wrong but thats just how I like to do it :D. I also open 14 pool 15 or 16 hatch if that matters to you. User was warned for this post | ||
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madzumo
United States10 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:01 Rebs wrote: http://sc2casts.com/cast6367-Naniwa-vs-Leenock-2-Best-of-3s-MLG-Providence-2011-Finals a pretty straightforward way to dealing with ffe. Greedy protoss deserves to have this done to them, and I feel like you absolutely have to be aggressive. And make them spend there money elsewhere than tech and probes or risk dying. People keep calling it semi all in or cheese but thats a bit unfair considering doing anything to get ahead on macro that isnt safe is just as cheesy. Either way going the 1 base roach pressure/all in means you control the temp of where the protoss spends his money and additionally keeps him on his heels since he has no scouting for a while. WTF? Are you retarded? How on earth is this an example of punishing a greedy Protoss?? Leenock didn't do any damage & lost due to his move that set him back. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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mrGRAPE
Singapore293 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:01 Rebs wrote: http://sc2casts.com/cast6367-Naniwa-vs-Leenock-2-Best-of-3s-MLG-Providence-2011-Finals a pretty straightforward way to dealing with ffe. Greedy protoss deserves to have this done to them, and I feel like you absolutely have to be aggressive. And make them spend there money elsewhere than tech and probes or risk dying. People keep calling it semi all in or cheese but thats a bit unfair considering doing anything to get ahead on macro that isnt safe is just as cheesy. Either way going the 1 base roach pressure/all in means you control the temp of where the protoss spends his money and additionally keeps him on his heels since he has no scouting for a while. Everyone thinking about bashing this poster should realize that the page automatically plays the FIRST GAME (where Leenock loses). To see the all in build that Leenock does and successfully wins, you have to check out games 2,3,4 and 5 which are right below game 1. Please start scrolling! | ||
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OptimusYale
Korea (South)1005 Posts
This helped me alot against toss...dont know if it translates well to higher levels but certainly helps. If you keep scouting and see a robo transition then either drop the main and take out collosus bay, or nydus and do it. Just delay that tech and eventually your army should rape..... other than that Im pretty lost without going all-in User was warned for this post | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
In general I think that your early game macro mistakes cost you that game. The early scout you send is an idea I like, but you really need to focus on blocking that nexus for as long as possible; the loss of minerals from the scout is very noticeable. When you natural gets pylon blocked and you scout FFE from toss, you should build a hatch at your 3rd base ASAP; you could have built it at either about 3:15 or 3:45, but you built it at 4:25! The second pylon block at your natural delayed your natural, yet you still could have built it at 4:55, but you actually built it at 5:08 The supply block at 26 supply slowed you down by a huge amount, by that point I feel you were extremely far behind. Your inject larva wasn't that good early on either, your queen had 17 extra energy by 6:15. While your 2 first overlords took their optimal paths, the same can't be said about all the other ones. You should send them at the expansions your opponent is likely to take, and start gooping creep there as soon as lair finishes. While it wasn't factor this game, still is incredibly important. You should also focus more on your creep spread. Although it is secondary to all these other problems, defending with creep is so much easier (especially that 2 stargate you hate so much!  ). You made 4 creep tumors for the whole game, and not at the best places.Make sure to never have more than 16 drones on minerals at any base, as long as others are not fully saturated. When you have 16 drones on minerals in each base, strongly consider taking 4th base. Your overall gamesense and timings were good enough, really hard to criticize since you were very far behind at 5:00 already. One very minor thing, don't counterattack with zerglings on Shakuras, it doesn't work haha ;p try to pick off proxy pylons, or at least make his army go back to defend them. That is all, hope it was helpful. Ask for more advice if you want =) Edit: I also very much so disagree with all the posters suggesting 11 overpool 18 hatch. If you want similiar build order to that, 12 pool is better imo. And I like 15 pool even more, while potentially delaying your 2nd base (and even that isn't the case on shakuras, really) the extra minerals that translate into earlier queens = creep is definately worth it. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On November 23 2011 04:56 woralo wrote: My problem with the whole FFE build is not what to do against it, but the fact that it's possible to begin with. I have been playing SC 1 and 2 from the start. And I can remember zerg being the race that is to fast expand. Now in SC2 it's protoss which does the expanding versus zerg. And to me this changes the whole game. This make protoss the race, zerg should be. Why is protoss able to FFE and come out stronger then zerg which should have that role. In SC 1 races had to battle and do their very best to deny zerg's fast expansion. Whilest now protoss doesn't even need to make a real effort. What''s even worse is that protoss can just fast expand and deny zergs natural fe by just placing a probe or pylon in it's building grid. Which sets zerg back some additional time before expanding. Ofcourse you can expand to a non-natural location, but I guess I don't have to explain what the downside about that is. This only delays him further. It's a lott harder for zerg to deny protoss then it is for protoss to deny zerg. Which doesn't make any sense at this point. As a lower masters zerg I have been trying out a macro hatch before pool and if i can get away with it a 3 hatch before pool, there isn't really anything the fe toss can do against this (macro hatch that is) and if you can get away with the 3 hatch before pool and get your fourth at like 50f (that's how the injects work out), you have enough larvae to produce anything you want as well as spread creep and drone like a madman, it also gives you an extra hatch to produce queens out of so you aren't caught off guard while getting lair. I like to get a 14 hatch (try for nat), 16 hatch, 16 pool. Ofcourse you can try to do something against FFE, but it simply should not be this way and I think blizzard should do something about it. Here are the things I am currently trying to do vs FFE. - 6 pool Strangely enough 6 pool works like a mirracle versus FFE, but the downside is. It's a gamble. You are never sure if protoss does FFE, and if they don't you're pretty much screwed. So it's not that viable. You lose when they get first scout - Overpool 11 pool extractor trick is still something I am trying to balance towards FFE. Sometimes it works, however on maps like metalopolis where buildings oftenly are walled towards protoss' natural it's less effective. If I see P has too many canons up or my zerlings just won't cut it, I will try transitioning into banelings to bust the wall or canons. However this is another all in, considering the amounts of minerals and gas you need to spend on it. I think the key to overpooling versus FFE is not to be scouted. Or at least letting zerg think you're going to macro. If they spot your zerlings or overpool, they will simply put another canon up and you're done for. 11p/18h can be fairly economical and can transition into both a 7rr and heavy macro play as well as early lings, In theory this build should be looked at quite a bit more. One key element to any of the early timing attacks is to not be scouted or at least not fully. If scouted protoss can easily defend against almost any of the tactics you can imagine. And that's what makes it so unfair imo. User was warned for this post | ||
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elliminist
Japan121 Posts
Protoss kills third. Midgame advantage gone. Then what? Nothing wrong with your opening btw if you want to set up for a fast third. 11overpool's third is ridiculously late compared to 14 pool 16 hatch opening. I will give you some suggestions after I analyse the individual replays. - dTox v ProPoinK - Your third timing and natural timing were alright, considering that you had to knock out the pylon. - You mined so much gas so early after speed for no apparent reason (besides making defensive roaches?) - After you lost your third, you follow up with...Roaches and lings?! Why not expand again? Why not double expand If he's retained his army then there's absolutely no reason to attack into that, that's where Protoss' strength lies, in his army. - What did your Roach-Ling army do in the end? Were they there to 'Keep you alive' or there to 'win'? - You let all your drones die off right after you were making army. This means you need to use more larva for drones which are not units. Larva management is suffering because you aren't preserving your units. Once you hit mid-late game, larvae management isn't such a big deal but in mid-game larvae management is so important it makes or breaks the midgame. - You never got back into the game because you didn't seem to be interested in just catching up with economic risks (If you lose an expo, double expo in response. If you lose all your drones, make twice as many drones etc). dTox v DrSmoke - You let him pylon block your natural twice =_=. I don't even know how that was possible or how you let it happen. It shouldn't, just somehow ensure he can't do it. - You cut a tonne of drones for army (You started unit production at 50 drones, waaaaaay too early), this meant that you were unable to sustain production from your bases in the midgame. - You made army which had no real purpose - you were too blind aggressive with them and they didn't even guarantee a kill on that Protoss ball which killed your third. - If you're going to 2 base, at least make a macro hatchery. - Your unit composition wasn't strong enough to deal with his pushes. dTox v FestEvilil - You fell significantly far behind in the opening after misreading his build horribly. The speedling pressure is supposed to kill off a Protoss who goes 1gate expand, not 3 gate expand. A 3 gate expand is safe against Speedling pressure. - Too aggressive, you lost a tonne of units on a Protoss defense to deal no damage. - The counter to offensive forcefielding is to use static defense. Spines actually prevent sentries from overextending themselves into your territory. Another way is to also extend your creep way past your base, this means they have to coinflip whenever they're on creep that you haven't got hydras or banelings or way too many speedlings. - No armor upgrades until lategame. Watching +1 lings and +2 roaches fight a +2 atk +1 armor Protoss ball is just painful...You can't even keep the lings alive long enough to attack twice. - You were underteched in the final engagement. Roach-Ling-Muta is actually a very strong mobile composition to harrass with...but you weren't doing that. You were trying to force damage against a Protoss who was turtling. If you know they're turtling, just drone up instead; Force them to come to you, and when they do your harrassment might actually work. dTox v Lead - This is the game you scouted double stargate (Good job on that). However you didn't react at all to that information, and just relied on spores (not queens) to defend your bases. Building 4 spores per base is not a correct reaction to a double stargate build. You need to tech to hydras / spire as fast as you can and actually deflect with 5-6 queens (+ 1-2 spores) until they come out. Spores are meant to prevent phoenixes from getting too close to the queens to lift, not to kill Voidrays. Unfortunately it seems like your poor gas management meant that you were spending it all on roaches instead of teching to fast lair to open your options. - You took enormous damage from the Void harrass and your third was delayed so long you were economically behind. Once again, no attempt at an economic risk or timing attack to get back into the game. - If you had better creep spread, it's actually possible to make what is normally a 'risky' expo a safer one by connecting it. Your third was so risky for so long. - Did you know corruptors actually lose in 1:1 combat against Phoenix? 14 dmg at 1.9 atk spd (200hp) against 12 dmg at 1.1 atk speed (180hp). Did you also know that voidrays can beat them at a 1.5:1 ratio? Sad, isn't it? - You could have also built twice as many corruptors if you knew his army would be skewed that hard to stargates and collosus. - Then he just derped and made whatever weird army he wanted to win. But heck, Terrans get away with that all the time. It's your job to manage that unit composition imbalance (not in terms of fair/not fair, but in terms of too lopsided to one advantage). - Things to think about - Overlord spread (Yes it is annoying that stargate openings just absolutely deny overlord spreads, but it's not excuse not to do it). You could've deflected a warp prism drop altogether if you had proper overlord spread (instead of letting it land down and run back to deal with it) - Creep spread (The further out it is, the more area you have to defend on) - Overlord timings (Invest in more overlords if you know the timing you're sacrificing them) - Gas management (The 1 gas mining isn't doing you anything into the midgame. You're still losing your third to random stuff. You might as well be better off not mining that gas and making them minerals first) - Unit composition (Think about what unit composition you're going, and how you are making that composition useful. Roach Ling is good at mobile pressure against gateway units, but loses to tech like stargates and robo. Muta-ling are great against Robo compositions but have trouble with blink/zealot archon and stargate openings. - Too much time spent complaining. You'd be surprised how much longer you can drag a game out or reverse a situation if you keep your teeth clenched and focus on sending reinforcements despite fighting what appears to be a losing battle. A lot of high level ZvP used to be about making the protoss engaging 3 maxed armies worth from their natural, to the middle of the map to the zerg natural before they could even have a shot at dealing economic or tech damage. Sometimes it looks so hopeless but it's on the 3rd or 4th wave of reinforcements the Protoss army runs dry. This is often the case where sentries are involved. - Don't play their game. Those protosses you played were just 2 base all-ining, and you should be forcing the game to extend to points where their mechanics fail them. Unless they're GM I don't think their game plan and macro are that well developed to every point in the game. You should look past that point of 'deflecting' in the midgame, and think how things will pan out even if midgame is a stalemate. - I've also included in my post two of my own ladder replays against master level Protoss. You can tell the Protosses have a plan right until after they succeed their plan...and then they fall apart because they don't know what to do. http://replayfu.com/download/d0ee51402add002802cb5fbe2cd15c00 I get 7 gated and lose my third. However despite that I don't give it up without the guaranteeing that his army dies out in the open. After that I just double expand to get back into the game economically, and force the Protoss to overbuild stalkers while I drone behind it. At some point I decide to bring my roaches back so they won't get ambushed by a gateway ball. After that it's just setting up economic harrass and baiting forcefields while building up a ground army to overrun the Protoss timing push. I probably could've saved the drones at the gold but I'll do that next game. http://replayfu.com/download/KLLcVq I get pylon walled off in the early game, and instead of just raging about imba etc, I just focus on converging back to the midgame. I know however I cannot be droned as perfectly as I could have been if I wasn't blocked, but I will be cutting drones for units in the general timings of my opponent's tech timings. After scouting the blink allin, I also prepare for the DT harrass which is a natural tech divergence. His blink pressure fails horribly since I don't engage wastefully and then it's just me being ballsy and expanding whenever and wherever the hell I want while droning to ideal (80+). From there on it's over as I just attempt to stream reinforcements against his gateway ball (Zealot sentry stalker archon) and I eventually overrun it on the third wave of defense. From there I just sit back because I know I'm the one enormously far ahead, and he does try to push again. Funnily enough, Protoss units are really good, and he pushes me right back to my natural before I just tech switch and overrun him with 4k/4k in my bank. Mass spine wall in the middle bought me so much time too. Ends with Protoss tears, though I can't say it's justified because his mechanics sucked. | ||
zatic
Zurich15328 Posts
Everyone: If you don't watch the replays DO. NOT. POST. IN. A. [H]ELP. THREAD. You will be warned or banned. | ||
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zazzn
Canada54 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15328 Posts
And your post was after the last edit of the OP anyway. | ||
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zazzn
Canada54 Posts
Here's where you go wrong. You send 3 drones to chase his probe, leave 2 drones out 1 to chase probe one to attack pilon all the time while they should be mineing. You make a extractor and a evo chamber super early hurting econ again. Why do you need gas? What will ling speed give you nothing at this piont since it's only going to be zealots heading your way since he forged first and you saw that with the OL. Also you where about 10 harvesters behind at the 6-7 min mark which is really really bad, yous hould be at least even or 5-10 ahead. In short you lost the game right from the start... Recommendations Ignore the probe at the start, send your 2nd OL to the exp to watch for any funny business. Most protoss will not throw a pilon down unless the probe is being harassed... If you want to 15 FE just take your 3rd, however, I recommend against that since you can easily be cannoned there too. Open 11 pool (destiny style) done to 15, 1 set of lings and a queen, expand at 18. 14 gas/13 pool, drone to 15, queen / ling. However, when you get to about 15 drones, you can peel off 2 drones, and try to attack the probe microing 1 drone so that it's always in front of the probe so it can never place a pilon. If you are able to kill the drone this way, then you don't even need the set of lings yet. Now you have 2 big options to murder protoss 3 spine ol/cree OL because you started early gas, and you can use the first 100 for speed, next 100 for lair and the rest for roaches with the lings/spines. If you want a macro game, you pull the drones off the gas if you know you are going to be able to kill the probe and just leave 1 on there to mine to 100 gas. At 25/28 supply you should have enough to make a 3rd. immediately after placing the 3rd I make a roach warren, and keep droning... At this time I get back on gas, and when the warren pops I make 4 roaches to protect my 3rd from zealot harass. After that's delt with you keep droning. Tipically if they do the zealot harass I will keep droning to about 56 drones. Somewhere after the zealots I put a evo chamer, get a lair get +1 ranged and take all my gases. I also send in a lord to see if they have all 4 gases. If so, it makes my move to Hydra even faster, and before making anymore roaches or lings I'm making hydras off 6 gas while getting range upgrade. If it's air agression you flat out win and he cannot harass you at this point becuase of the hydra, so I feel safe to start a 4th while making more army. YOu should also be getting drop tech around the time you have 6-8 hydra's because they are going to be useless in about 3-5 min when COLS start to pop. at that time I start adding alot of roaches to the army and getting ready to drop and multi prong... I'll load up alot of units head to the main head and a small group to the natural.... The re-enforcements should be rallied to his 3rd that probably just started or just finished. Back at home you need to be getting an infestation pit and another evo. You should also consider a 5th if you have money because when he counters your attack you will most likely not be able to hold one base, that you need mineing. You'll have a huge eco lead now and will have prevented the 3rd which is the most important. Now it's just you needing to transisiion to roach corruptor/ling/ once you kill the cols re-add the hydras and morph into broodlords and GG no re. Sounds a lot easier than it is to pull off... But having that early lair and roach warren allows you to stop air/dt/and a host of other things and doesn't put you behind because you will have tech to be the agressor not the one sitting back and taking the thrashing form a death ball. Game 2 Again you make too many lings, you supply block yourself at 26 which is really bad early game and ling speed is going to do absolutely nothihng for you when he blocks. With his weak ass wall which wasn't blocked and only had 1 cannon, you could have bane busted the hell out of him or used that spine creep trick. Your ol spoted the robo bay and the gates meaning no air. It's near the 10 min mark and he has almost no units... Clearly it's tech going on at this point you need to know what is going on... Delaying that lair this long cost you because you can't make overseers or speed lords. You finally have a bigger econ, but you have ZERO creep spread. Why don't you ever replace the OL's that die at his base? You can easily hot key them to take the long way to his base so they are ready to go in after the first few die. 10 min mark he hasn't expanded he hasn't pushed you have no idea what is going on and you need intel VERY VERY BAD.... When he moves out you run your whole army home, which is really bad because you don't even have a fighting retreat nor do you pressure his front door. This is the point that you need to stall... He want's to attack but you cannot let him because you don't have a big enough army... However, if he splits his army it's to small to fight yours effectively hence he has to ball. If you had drop tech you could drop his main while he was attacking piligaging his tech bulidings bulidings. In this specific game you could have pressured his front door becuase you had some units and it wasn't really defended. My rule of thumb is if I have 3 bases I need 4 hatches. You also always should consider haveing an extra for a base you expect to die if attacked... Your production was just reduced by a 1/3 losing your 3rd base. After killing his cols, you have no route to counter because of the sentries and wall. Your corruptors are useless now as well since there are no cols, and you are not going to hive still. After that you keep making roach ling, while he transitions to immortal stalker/sentries... You know that's a much stronger combo than what you have.... Again HYDRA's are amazing again here, they will eat though the stalkers, rape the sentries and immortals..... The roaches are just fodder for them. Summary of why you lose -Poor scouting -Poor tech choices -Poor decision making I'm going to go ahead and assume the other 2 replays are the same. Pm me if you want to chat some more. Lates. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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holydevil
United States145 Posts
It's a 9 ov, 14 ext, 14 pool, 15 ov + Q + 2 lings, 20 hatch, 22 2nd queen, drone to 26-29 and drop roach at 5:00. Drone up to 34 and make ov's to 68 while makeing roaches (5-9?) and lings behind it. When you attack you want to go lair and get a third. | ||
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Makura
United States317 Posts
You mentioned protoss having so many options but if I have found when I'm playing a macro game, cutting some "macro" for additional safety is really nice. blind early evo chamber allows for fast +1 melee (im a fan of ling based play but i suppose you could do range instead) and allows reaction spores (or in my case) 2 blind spores. If dts or air dont come, you are limiting where observers can see so hide your tech a lil better (just a little). I almost always get a macro hatch prior to taking a 3rd because it ensures safety from 2 base all ins from sear production and often, the toss will blindly send (usually on shakuras) 6-8 zealots to your 3rd which you can deny vision of until then with speedlings over roach play and then get that free pick off while keeping ur 2 base REALLY sateratured and then have urself a nice transfer when you take a 3rd or if your comfortable double expanding. in addition, zerg has a lot of "all ins" that can be done and are really fun to do usually cause they involve nydus play. I often like to go 14/14 and at 15 speed, 6 lings and queen. You'd be amazed how many times you can get run bys simply cause the toss expects ~2 lings and be a HUGE annoyance plus allows you to work on your multi tasking early. If you kill enough a roach all in can follow (yes it will be delayed cause its reactionary but it works so well if they spend an enterity trying to clean out 4-5 (usually 1-2 die from running by the cannon) lings. Another thing is if ur behind from early play, dont be afraid to all in (speedling fast nydus all in is super effective into hydras if they play super turtly at their natural after losing their main). Failing to get the nydus down once doesnt ensure loss either if you keep at it from multiple points (perhaps try distrcting with an overseer). GL | ||
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RaKooNs
United Kingdom397 Posts
On November 22 2011 22:55 Xana wrote: I find the keyword is agression, in one way or the other. The first agressive move I do on most maps, is to plant my hatchery on their expansion if they try to FFE. This delays their FFE by more than a minute if you do it properly, and easily pays back the 75-150 minerals you lose cancelling said hatch. It more often than not also forces an extra cannon, if he doesn't want to wait for his first Zealot to stop you from keeping up the rebuilding of the hatch everytime it nears completion. This alone delays a 6-7gate with up to a minute. It delays 2sg openers even longer. If I fail on getting the hatch down at his natural, my agressive move is getting early ling upgrades. 1/1 lings deal extremely well with massive gateway pushes, if you engage it early enough. My 2c This is a really dumb suggestion on a map such as shakuras, im a protoss player and i know that that ramp is impenetrable. I'm not sure what the answer to you're query is but it is certainly not agression. | ||
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