EPT[H] Mid-masters, completely stuck ZvP cannot win.
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
The first agressive move I do on most maps, is to plant my hatchery on their expansion if they try to FFE. This delays their FFE by more than a minute if you do it properly, and easily pays back the 75-150 minerals you lose cancelling said hatch. It more often than not also forces an extra cannon, if he doesn't want to wait for his first Zealot to stop you from keeping up the rebuilding of the hatch everytime it nears completion. This alone delays a 6-7gate with up to a minute. It delays 2sg openers even longer. If I fail on getting the hatch down at his natural, my agressive move is getting early ling upgrades. 1/1 lings deal extremely well with massive gateway pushes, if you engage it early enough. My 2c | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
a pretty straightforward way to dealing with ffe. Greedy protoss deserves to have this done to them, and I feel like you absolutely have to be aggressive. And make them spend there money elsewhere than tech and probes or risk dying. People keep calling it semi all in or cheese but thats a bit unfair considering doing anything to get ahead on macro that isnt safe is just as cheesy. Either way going the 1 base roach pressure/all in means you control the temp of where the protoss spends his money and additionally keeps him on his heels since he has no scouting for a while. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
if they do manage to get in their and kill your third, contain them, send lings to their nat or third. OR go kill their natural. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. On November 22 2011 23:01 Rebs wrote: http://sc2casts.com/cast6367-Naniwa-vs-Leenock-2-Best-of-3s-MLG-Providence-2011-Finals a pretty straightforward way to dealing with ffe. Greedy protoss deserves to have this done to them, and I feel like you absolutely have to be aggressive. And make them spend there money elsewhere than tech and probes or risk dying. People keep calling it semi all in or cheese but thats a bit unfair considering doing anything to get ahead on macro that isnt safe is just as cheesy. Either way going the 1 base roach pressure/all in means you control the temp of where the protoss spends his money and additionally keeps him on his heels since he has no scouting for a while. you really suggest roach all in when he asks what to do in zvp?^^ Also in that game where you linked leenock failed to bust him so dunno why you even post that. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Rohan
United Kingdom83 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:07 Alpina wrote: Well there are a lot of ways to kill protoss :D i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. you really suggest roach all in when he asks what to do in zvp?^^ Also in that game where you linked leenock failed to bust him so dunno why you even post that. Not to slam you here or anything, but if a Protoss player wanders into your base with +1 zealots and you only have lings and queens you're going to get destroyed in the most comical way possible. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
droning too hard not scouting or both. User was warned for this post | ||
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weiliem
2072 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:18 Rohan wrote: Not to slam you here or anything, but if a Protoss player wanders into your base with +1 zealots and you only have lings and queens you're going to get destroyed in the most comical way possible. well since nowadays early +1 zealot pressure is common you can make 1 spine in 3rd just in case, then 2 queens + spine and few lings gonna defend no problem. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
If they do want to do some 7 gate shenanigans, I make a million zerglings on top of my already standing ~25 Roach army and destroy his army AND third. Then take my third after he's done sobbing about me not letting him out of his base. If I don't see aggression coming. Hey insta-free saturation. User was warned for this post | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:07 Alpina wrote: Well there are a lot of ways to kill protoss :D i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. you really suggest roach all in when he asks what to do in zvp?^^ Also in that game where you linked leenock failed to bust him so dunno why you even post that. sigh.. yea and thats actually better because its an example of where it can go wrong by allowing scouting. Theres 4 games all with either busts or pressure transitions after that to maybe take a look at those before being critical, because you know when you criticize with incomplete info your just a douchebag. Either way it isnt intended to kill, but can if the toss is to greedy. And really +1 lings and blings to hold 7 gate ? Thats got to be against the most retarded toss who doesnt know where the +1 on attack starts on his forge and presses G while trying to forcefield. Youd need ridiculously good flanking and maybe maybe hold of the 7 gate. You will lose a third most of the time,infact the current korean meta even the muta transition is off usually of roach pressure when the toss goes forge fe. | ||
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XcelShark
Bulgaria17 Posts
1.In the game against prOpOink on shakuras plateau you got way behind in economy from the start of the game.Your hatches at the natural and at the third were very late so you lacked drones.This resulted in lack of units when he pushed you so that is the reason you lost the third without even giving reasonable fight. Your natural ended up late because of the pylon block and that's the reason most zergs go for early pool like 11 overpool. - if forces protoss to be little bit on their toes because of the early zerglings and it helps you deal with the probe harass and put the hatches down in time. The second very big thing in that game was that took a very early gas for that type of play. - you wasted a drone with an extractor that you didn't use for a while and then you started mining gas when you barely had minerals for support drone production.When protoss FFE's i think you can delay the ling speed a lot more. -your overlord that scouted his base saw only some gateways being started and you did have another around his base . And without seeing DT shrine or stargate you put down a lot of spores which cut a lot of resource and drones early in the game.Next time make sure to use all the ways possible to get the information you need before starting to prepare for everything.When you end up behind from the beginning little things like this decide the outcome of the game. : ) I think those are the big things that lost you that game otherwise i don't see any strategic flaws . The upgrades were good decision the roach warren and the delayed lair also. : ) 2.The second game on Shakuras Plateau against DrSmoke was a lot better but the thing that killed you i think was that you overdroned and didn't have enough units for the push. - Your hatches were late again because of the late pool and the pylon block but that just made your economy even with the protoss instead of shooting you up in supply. - Your overlord scout saw everything you needed . The fast collossi play. So the roach / corrutor mix would have been ok but you made around 17 drones just before he moved out and if those were roaches it would have been a different story.Even the collossi were without the range upgrade. - Then some little things like upgrading +1 melee when you are going roaches is not preferable if you have no plan to use them lings that early. 3.The game on metalopolis you chose fast 3 bases against 3 gate expand player but he didn't punish you for that and it would have been ok but you overdroned a bit and you made 20 lings in a time where you didn't really have to , which slowed down your economy.If you had made drones instead of those lings and you were hitting all of your larvae injects you would have crushed the push . 4.The game on Nerazim Crypt was just messed up from the beginning.He went for Nexus first and you didn't apply instant pressure so he had a lot more probes than you had drones.And then he was extra greedy so you managed to get some damage with the roaches but then you also had to build 10 spores(and btw 10 spores is too much) and fell behind in workers again.And for me there the game ends.You just didn't react in time to punish the nexus first and then you overreacted to the stargate play. | ||
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getdeadplz
United States116 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:07 Alpina wrote: Well there are a lot of ways to kill protoss :D i use muta ling bling style. Since toss nowadays goes into FFE pretty much always i get 3rd very early, then drone until ~7:40. While droning add quite a few queens, so you have 1 at each base and two at 3rd base. I get +1 and ling speed at around ~6+ minute, also baneling nest. Now after 7:40 you just mass lings cause you don't know what he is doing usually. Then after lair is done i make overseer and make sure what's up. Then make spire and make mutas at around 13 minute mark, of course depends on what he is doing, if it is 2 star phoenix then mutas come much later when you have ton of them. On 7 gate part, if you start producing speedlings at 7:40 or so then you should hold any 7 gate cause you got +1, and if you got banelings ready you are fine for sure. Btw after lair always get bling speed asap. In all honesty this strategy is countered by a 7 gate hard maybe on a mapp like shattered temple you'll have a prayer but ff will sheild the toss from you melee units. To OP i have been having success still with 11 OVERPOOL into 18 hatch then taking a third around 33 supply you need to send in a few overlord throughout the game one at the 7: min mark is the biggest... 7:20 i believe is the stargate timing no matter what i like to throw down 2 gas roach warren and evo at 7 min and my overlord start his entrance soon after. STARGATE PLAY If your overlord scouts stargate 3 spores a base and drone hard with only a few lings on the map. HEAVY GATES if you see mass gates going down you should mass ling roach til the push and when you have a sufficent roach count (I like about 10) use 200 gas for spire. continue ling roach production til an attack or expand and as soon as he pushes crushes and if he expands for the engagement. LATER TRANSITION when you crush the first push make about 8 mutas send to the base take 2 expos and go into a heavy ling muta spine compisition, throw down infestation pit, baneling nest, and tech to hive. at this point you should be at around 2-1 upgrades and be focsing on an ultra muta bane and a medium size ling army to crush the protss death ball. I will edit my post after watch replays when i arrive home tonight but i thought it was nessary to give my 2c on the match -up first  hope i helped this is one of my first post im working on the teamliquid way so if i do anything wrong feel free to pm me about it so i can do better in the future. Goodluck with zvp and hope this improves your experience! | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 22 2011 23:41 Rebs wrote: sigh.. yea and thats actually better because its an example of where it can go wrong by allowing scouting. Theres 4 games all with either busts or pressure transitions after that to maybe take a look at those before being critical, because you know when you criticize with incomplete info your just a douchebag. Either way it isnt intended to kill, but can if the toss is to greedy. And really +1 lings and blings to hold 7 gate ? Thats got to be against the most retarded toss who doesnt know where the +1 on attack starts on his forge and presses G while trying to forcefield. You will lose a third most of the time,infact the current korean meta even the muta transition is off usually of roach pressure when the toss goes forge fe. Youd need ridiculously good flanking and maybe maybe hold of the 7 gate. roach bust with hatch cancel is complete all in and I saw it many times pros doing and always fail. Maybe on map like xel naga or metalopolis if toss is doing FFE, but on other maps it's just don't work vs. anyone who knows how to defend. and yeah I usually (not always ofc) defend 7 gate with just mass lings even without banelings. You get 4 hatches with 4 queens and ling production is just insane. Of course if toss is doing 7 gate on a map like antiga and goes straight to 3rd killing rocks then you probably going to lose 3rd, but in such a small choke it will be very hard to defend no matter what units you got. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
This happens to me with every MU, some MU feels really easy at times and some MU feels impossible, just watch some pro games and copy them or take a short break. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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fubusama
74 Posts
vs FFE: (before 7minute mark) Roach/Ling all-in Quick 3rd (4 minute) vs 6/7 gate Rush (~9minute) Roach w/ Burrow vs Stargate Queens, Evo/spores, Drones (drones are the key here) It's usually a tight battle when those mid-game attacks come from toss, but as long as you're hitting your injects you should be able to just barley hold it; saturate your 3rd then run him over. | ||
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zazzn
Canada54 Posts
On Antiga or abyss you can 7 pool and usually hope that they don't scout you first, because 90% of protoss are greedy and will ffe that map... you transition in to droning right away and do what ever damage you can do then go in to a normal game. Shakurus you can do the spine cheese by gasing at 14 and pooling at 13 and just making sure he doesn't 3 pilon wall you. Get speed with you first 100 then next 100 goes to lair and spine him and drone up to about 30.... I make 4-5 roaches with the spines and nothing but lings to follow up. usually does so much damage because they are not ready... Especially good if they go void or phoneix. Another way to play on the maps where they are FFE is to not be so greedy... 14 pool, drone to 15, try to expand if he blocks make 1 set of lings and a queen. Also take a gas, and expand when you can or take 3rd spot..You'll want to use the lings to see if he's making zealots to do the kiwikaki zealot bulid up to kill /stall the 3rd... if you see more than 1-2 zealots I make a roach warren at the 5:30-6:00 min mark and make 3-4 roaches. I also get a fairly fast lair shortly after because my army at the 8:00-9:00 mark is going to be a bunch of ling/hydra's. This will stop any type of air harassment, any gateway all in garbage. The lings are usually made before the hydras 16-20 just to make sure he cannot move out right away and stall long enough for my better econ to kick in. Meanwhile drop tech should have been researching soon after the lair was done and you should have been on all 4 gas when the lair was 1/2 way done. This also stops DT because the fast lair will allow overseeers really quick..... After you stop any sort of early aggression, you expand 2 more times possibly 3 if you can... You will always lose 1/2 during the fighting and your goal is to split his army if he pulled back and is going cols to fight the hydras....Your drop tech should be done and he'll probably be going to expand... as he does that you need to drop the main with 3 lords full of hydra/roach drop the natural, and all newly created units kill the 3rd..... the drops at the main and natural are not to be lost just to make him move his army so you can kill the 3rd.... By about that time all your corruptors should be coming out and your army would be in OL's picked up after doing the harass attack... you'll be making a bunch more men at your base, and teching to hive.... When the are in place you attack the front door with the new units corruptors come from the back and you drop again back on the main and natural.... if you don't win the game there you will at least have killed his cols traded a good amount of army and while you reloading with units you'll also going to morph the corruptors in to BL and win the game. Basically, I now understand if you stay on tier 2 tech vs toss you will almost ALWAYS lose unless they are just crap. You can get away with no BL/Ultra on Terran and zerg but not on toss you absolutely need BL because you can never trade properly with toss and especially when you have to have 80 drones of supply along with queens and all sorts of other crap that eats up supply form army. | ||
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