EPT[G] Experimental Proxy-Spine Crawler Rushes - Page 2
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 19 2011 07:34 Conquerer67 wrote: Ok, all-in spine rush w/ proxy hatch. If it's unscouted, it makes bank. If it gets scouted, you lose. Well there's a game there he scouted and I still won, it's stronger than you'd think | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1312 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote: That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in... As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this). A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot). Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry. Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =) | ||
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Zariel
Australia1312 Posts
- Using 1 medivac to drop at an expansion constantly is a strategy. ->Low-risk (due to not using many units/resources to 'commit', but a limited reward - Using 3 medivacs to drop at a base is a more risky strategy. -> Higher risk than 1 medivac (you use more resources), much higher reward as it can kill a lot more stuff potentially - Using 5 medivacs to drop in a base is nearly considered an all-in -> Well, your using nearly all your troops possible to make an attack, if you get caught out, you pretty much lose | ||
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BrassMonkey
Canada84 Posts
On November 19 2011 09:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this). A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot). Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry. Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =) My definition of all in is something that MUST do damage or the game is pretty much over. Imagine if you will you spine crawlered someone base. You got their gateway, cybercore and forge but warp gate is already done. You cannot reach his nexus with your crawlers and his army is holding you off. How exactly do you transition out of this without instantly dying. Just because you have a lair and not a proxy hatch doesnt mean your not all in. That build has absolutely no smooth transitions, not to mention the amount of drones you've sacrificed teching and building spines. Your question as to why not play risky can be answered quite easily. There are two forms of risk. Calculated risk (I will build 10 drones now in the hope he wont attack and therefore will be in a much stronger position later), and plain risk (I will build spines and hope he doesnt scout it.) In one case, the risk can be punished with an attack but if held off you will be way ahead. In the other risk, if you dont win, its over. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On November 19 2011 09:31 Zariel wrote: Well to understand you, I guess your saying in a Terran scenario (say a 9min mark): - Using 1 medivac to drop at an expansion constantly is a strategy. ->Low-risk (due to not using many units/resources to 'commit', but a limited reward - Using 3 medivacs to drop at a base is a more risky strategy. -> Higher risk than 1 medivac (you use more resources), much higher reward as it can kill a lot more stuff potentially - Using 5 medivacs to drop in a base is nearly considered an all-in -> Well, your using nearly all your troops possible to make an attack, if you get caught out, you pretty much lose Nice example. To analyze it from a risk/reward perspective: * the risk of getting the medivacs scouted is always the same, regardless how many you send * the major element of a drop is the element of surprise and you usually profit, that your opponent is out of position. This effect is independent of the drop-size. However the larger the drop, the more damage you'll deal until his army arrives. * an all-in drop pays off only if your opponent has not a matching army * the larger the drop, the weaker your defense against counter attacks. * a conclusion is: far expansions can be dropped with one medi only, since it takes a lot of time until defending army arrives. If you drop the main you'll probably need more than one medivac, since you have less time to deal damage. So dropping the main is more risky than dropping far expansions, however the reward in the main might be worth it (e.g. tech snipe) | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On November 19 2011 11:16 BrassMonkey wrote: My definition of all in is something that MUST do damage or the game is pretty much over. Definitely opinion vs opinion here but I think that's a terrible definition. It's like saying 6pool is all in because it must do some form of damage, well no shit why wouldn't it do damage? Unless you made lings to /dance around your base they will always do some form of damage. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
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chingchong99
Nauru64 Posts
On November 20 2011 00:28 Bad_Habit wrote: whats ur mid highmaster eu account. tangssc or so with 20 wins and 40 loses and 300 points in master? CoachTang. he has like 500 points or something. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On November 20 2011 00:22 TangSC wrote: I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright. Yes, but normal in game attacks don't always rely on not being scouted. Take a ZvP for example, say the P went FFE --> 6 gate blink pressure while taking third, and the Zerg went 3 hatch before Lair. Your opponent can know full well you're going 6 gate blink, while taking a third behind it. You can then just sit at his ramp and scare him into making more and more units while you catch up in econ, or you can try to kill his third/do damage while escaping with good blink micro. But with all your builds, if you get scouted you SHOULD ALWAYS lose. You're not executing any attacks that are leading to a mind game or micro battle between players, you're executing builds that flat out either will work or they won't. There's nothing new about this, it's been done before. All-ins in certain situations, like taking advantage of an opponent's greed or him cutting a slight corner in his build, make sense (i.e. Using spotting OL to see how many cannons FFE player built, then punishing him for only building 1 cannon with Roach/Ling all in, and even if he might scout it, his extra cannons might not get down in time. There's no such thinking in your builds. It's just flat out "Well I sure hope he doesn't scout me at all for the entire game". That's it. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 20 2011 01:05 Flonomenalz wrote: Yes, but normal in game attacks don't always rely on not being scouted. Take a ZvP for example, say the P went FFE --> 6 gate blink pressure while taking third, and the Zerg went 3 hatch before Lair. Your opponent can know full well you're going 6 gate blink, while taking a third behind it. You can then just sit at his ramp and scare him into making more and more units while you catch up in econ, or you can try to kill his third/do damage while escaping with good blink micro. But with all your builds, if you get scouted you SHOULD ALWAYS lose. You're not executing any attacks that are leading to a mind game or micro battle between players, you're executing builds that flat out either will work or they won't. There's nothing new about this, it's been done before. All-ins in certain situations, like taking advantage of an opponent's greed or him cutting a slight corner in his build, make sense (i.e. Using spotting OL to see how many cannons FFE player built, then punishing him for only building 1 cannon with Roach/Ling all in, and even if he might scout it, his extra cannons might not get down in time. There's no such thinking in your builds. It's just flat out "Well I sure hope he doesn't scout me at all for the entire game". That's it. It's pretty unlikely they'll scout your proxy location. And even if they do, if they're already committed to taking a FFE it's very difficult to hold even if they scout. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
I'm not sure what's the best way to react to it. I scouted it instantly but decided to make a lot of cannons and got destroyed. I think it's best to make an extra gateway and a stargate for voidrays, cb units out of the gates and add a bunch of cannons as late as possible. | ||
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paintfive
785 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 20 2011 04:53 Arcanefrost wrote: Lol, I already feared I would be in the replay pack ^^ I'm not sure what's the best way to react to it. I scouted it instantly but decided to make a lot of cannons and got destroyed. I think it's best to make an extra gateway and a stargate for voidrays, cb units out of the gares and add a bunch of cannons as late as possible. I think you're right with vrays, once you get to 3 it's very difficult to keep my spines alive. | ||
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
Yeah I haven't tested or played with this or anything, just theorycrafting here. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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