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[G] Experimental Proxy-Spine Crawler Rushes - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Conquerer67
Profile Joined May 2011
United States605 Posts
November 18 2011 22:34 GMT
#21
Ok, all-in spine rush w/ proxy hatch. If it's unscouted, it makes bank. If it gets scouted, you lose.
I hate when people compare SC2 and rochambeu. One race isn't fucking supposed to counter another one. | Protoss isn't OP. Their units on the other hand....
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 18 2011 22:56 GMT
#22
On November 19 2011 07:34 Conquerer67 wrote:
Ok, all-in spine rush w/ proxy hatch. If it's unscouted, it makes bank. If it gets scouted, you lose.

Well there's a game there he scouted and I still won, it's stronger than you'd think
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
sanddbox_sc2
Profile Joined October 2011
United States173 Posts
November 18 2011 23:12 GMT
#23
Yeah this sounds a lot like a typical Tang build. It's not at all viable vs someone that can scout.
Zariel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia1285 Posts
November 18 2011 23:51 GMT
#24
In any case a zerg that builds a proxy hatchery and starts building spines is a pretty boss idea, at the same time a little BM as well. Like a big F-U to your opponent.
sup
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
November 19 2011 00:18 GMT
#25
On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in



That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in...


As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this).

A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot).
Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry.
Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =)
21 is half the truth
Zariel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia1285 Posts
November 19 2011 00:31 GMT
#26
Well to understand you, I guess your saying in a Terran scenario (say a 9min mark):

- Using 1 medivac to drop at an expansion constantly is a strategy.
->Low-risk (due to not using many units/resources to 'commit', but a limited reward

- Using 3 medivacs to drop at a base is a more risky strategy.
-> Higher risk than 1 medivac (you use more resources), much higher reward as it can kill a lot more stuff potentially

- Using 5 medivacs to drop in a base is nearly considered an all-in
-> Well, your using nearly all your troops possible to make an attack, if you get caught out, you pretty much lose
sup
BrassMonkey
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada84 Posts
November 19 2011 02:16 GMT
#27
On November 19 2011 09:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote:
On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in



That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in...


As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this).

A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot).
Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry.
Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =)





My definition of all in is something that MUST do damage or the game is pretty much over. Imagine if you will you spine crawlered someone base. You got their gateway, cybercore and forge but warp gate is already done. You cannot reach his nexus with your crawlers and his army is holding you off. How exactly do you transition out of this without instantly dying. Just because you have a lair and not a proxy hatch doesnt mean your not all in. That build has absolutely no smooth transitions, not to mention the amount of drones you've sacrificed teching and building spines.

Your question as to why not play risky can be answered quite easily. There are two forms of risk. Calculated risk (I will build 10 drones now in the hope he wont attack and therefore will be in a much stronger position later), and plain risk (I will build spines and hope he doesnt scout it.) In one case, the risk can be punished with an attack but if held off you will be way ahead. In the other risk, if you dont win, its over.
TOO EZ
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
November 19 2011 02:32 GMT
#28
On November 19 2011 09:31 Zariel wrote:
Well to understand you, I guess your saying in a Terran scenario (say a 9min mark):

- Using 1 medivac to drop at an expansion constantly is a strategy.
->Low-risk (due to not using many units/resources to 'commit', but a limited reward

- Using 3 medivacs to drop at a base is a more risky strategy.
-> Higher risk than 1 medivac (you use more resources), much higher reward as it can kill a lot more stuff potentially

- Using 5 medivacs to drop in a base is nearly considered an all-in
-> Well, your using nearly all your troops possible to make an attack, if you get caught out, you pretty much lose


Nice example. To analyze it from a risk/reward perspective:

* the risk of getting the medivacs scouted is always the same, regardless how many you send
* the major element of a drop is the element of surprise and you usually profit, that your opponent is out of position. This effect is independent of the drop-size. However the larger the drop, the more damage you'll deal until his army arrives.
* an all-in drop pays off only if your opponent has not a matching army
* the larger the drop, the weaker your defense against counter attacks.
* a conclusion is: far expansions can be dropped with one medi only, since it takes a lot of time until defending army arrives. If you drop the main you'll probably need more than one medivac, since you have less time to deal damage. So dropping the main is more risky than dropping far expansions, however the reward in the main might be worth it (e.g. tech snipe)

21 is half the truth
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
November 19 2011 03:36 GMT
#29
On November 19 2011 11:16 BrassMonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 09:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote:
On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in



That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in...


As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this).

A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot).
Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry.
Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =)
My definition of all in is something that MUST do damage or the game is pretty much over.

Definitely opinion vs opinion here but I think that's a terrible definition. It's like saying 6pool is all in because it must do some form of damage, well no shit why wouldn't it do damage? Unless you made lings to /dance around your base they will always do some form of damage.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 19 2011 15:22 GMT
#30
I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
November 19 2011 15:28 GMT
#31
whats ur mid highmaster eu account. tangssc or so with 20 wins and 40 loses and 300 points in master?
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
chingchong99
Profile Joined November 2011
Nauru64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-19 15:44:24
November 19 2011 15:44 GMT
#32
On November 20 2011 00:28 Bad_Habit wrote:
whats ur mid highmaster eu account. tangssc or so with 20 wins and 40 loses and 300 points in master?


CoachTang. he has like 500 points or something.
~900 pts masters toss @ EU | Looking for a practice partner, pm me!
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
November 19 2011 16:05 GMT
#33
On November 20 2011 00:22 TangSC wrote:
I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright.

Yes, but normal in game attacks don't always rely on not being scouted.

Take a ZvP for example, say the P went FFE --> 6 gate blink pressure while taking third, and the Zerg went 3 hatch before Lair.

Your opponent can know full well you're going 6 gate blink, while taking a third behind it. You can then just sit at his ramp and scare him into making more and more units while you catch up in econ, or you can try to kill his third/do damage while escaping with good blink micro.

But with all your builds, if you get scouted you SHOULD ALWAYS lose. You're not executing any attacks that are leading to a mind game or micro battle between players, you're executing builds that flat out either will work or they won't. There's nothing new about this, it's been done before.

All-ins in certain situations, like taking advantage of an opponent's greed or him cutting a slight corner in his build, make sense (i.e. Using spotting OL to see how many cannons FFE player built, then punishing him for only building 1 cannon with Roach/Ling all in, and even if he might scout it, his extra cannons might not get down in time.

There's no such thinking in your builds. It's just flat out "Well I sure hope he doesn't scout me at all for the entire game". That's it.
I love crazymoving
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 19 2011 16:22 GMT
#34
On November 20 2011 01:05 Flonomenalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2011 00:22 TangSC wrote:
I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright.

Yes, but normal in game attacks don't always rely on not being scouted.

Take a ZvP for example, say the P went FFE --> 6 gate blink pressure while taking third, and the Zerg went 3 hatch before Lair.

Your opponent can know full well you're going 6 gate blink, while taking a third behind it. You can then just sit at his ramp and scare him into making more and more units while you catch up in econ, or you can try to kill his third/do damage while escaping with good blink micro.

But with all your builds, if you get scouted you SHOULD ALWAYS lose. You're not executing any attacks that are leading to a mind game or micro battle between players, you're executing builds that flat out either will work or they won't. There's nothing new about this, it's been done before.

All-ins in certain situations, like taking advantage of an opponent's greed or him cutting a slight corner in his build, make sense (i.e. Using spotting OL to see how many cannons FFE player built, then punishing him for only building 1 cannon with Roach/Ling all in, and even if he might scout it, his extra cannons might not get down in time.

There's no such thinking in your builds. It's just flat out "Well I sure hope he doesn't scout me at all for the entire game". That's it.

It's pretty unlikely they'll scout your proxy location. And even if they do, if they're already committed to taking a FFE it's very difficult to hold even if they scout.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 19 2011 17:17 GMT
#35
Someone used this against me on Shakuras recently, but I hit a lucky timing with +1 stalkers/zealots and 6 VRs. He had hydras, but with gateway support and 6 vrs, hydras just die.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-19 22:46:51
November 19 2011 19:53 GMT
#36
Lol, I already feared I would be in the replay pack ^^

I'm not sure what's the best way to react to it. I scouted it instantly but decided to make a lot of cannons and got destroyed. I think it's best to make an extra gateway and a stargate for voidrays, cb units out of the gates and add a bunch of cannons as late as possible.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
paintfive
Profile Joined September 2011
785 Posts
November 19 2011 20:37 GMT
#37
experimental? people have been doing this for ages... of course i've only faced it on public customs because it's such a silly strat.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#38
On November 20 2011 04:53 Arcanefrost wrote:
Lol, I already feared I would be in the replay pack ^^

I'm not sure what's the best way to react to it. I scouted it instantly but decided to make a lot of cannons and got destroyed. I think it's best to make an extra gateway and a stargate for voidrays, cb units out of the gares and add a bunch of cannons as late as possible.

I think you're right with vrays, once you get to 3 it's very difficult to keep my spines alive.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
llKenZyll
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States853 Posts
November 19 2011 22:48 GMT
#39
While this may be a good idea, I think a better way would be to get your two bases up and create a queen at the natural hatchery when it completes. Then, you drone up while sending the queen at your natural to the protoss. Once the queen gets close, you bring a drone and build a hatchery outside the protoss's natural. You cancel the hatchery and poop a tumor on the remaining creep left behind from the hatchery. Then you just make spines and win. Comes pretty quick and you dont need hydras.
Yeah I haven't tested or played with this or anything, just theorycrafting here.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
November 19 2011 23:01 GMT
#40
why is the guide called "...experimental..." when it's a guide? seems like a contradiction... anyways your ideas aren't really refined or new but more of a calling to use spines more. I can agree on that.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
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