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Proxy Spine Crawler Rushing
Examples/Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
The Concept:
+ Show Spoiler + Hello TeamLiquid users! Thanks for taking the time to check out a fun post on the spine-crawler rush! *Queue dramatic theme music* I warn you – this is not a strategy I recommend using at the top levels. It's more of an experimental/for fun style, definitely not something that will maximize your SC2 improvement. I've been practicing proxy spine crawler rushing in every matchup on my mid/high master EU account. Doing it blindly, I have a roughly 50-60% win-rate with it. I've noticed, however, that against Forge-fast Expand and 1barracks CC, this number is dramatically higher - with proper execution, this build is extremely powerful against greedy opponents. Does this mean you should do cheesy rushes every game? Absolutely not, but it's a lot of fun to experiment with new styles and I encourage everyone to have some fun and try this out! Instead of building my first expansion at my natural, I build a proxy hatch somewhere near my opponent's expansion and keep an overlord (in case I need high ground vision) nearby. By getting a queen and spines at the proxy right away, I can make creep tumours and slow-push into their natural. ![[image loading]](http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/Screenshot2011-11-1813_01_08.jpg) Spine crawlers do heavy damage to buildings, making speedling runbys very effective!
The Build (ZvT/ZvP):
+ Show Spoiler +There are quite a few ways of doing this build, but the way I recommend first is the spine/speedling all-in, where you basically creep up with the spines and use them to break a hole for your lings to get in and do damage.
9Overlord
15Pool
16Gas
16Proxy Hatch (When it's half done, send 3 drones to build spines and use proxy-hatch larva to create additional drones)
Start your speed and then take guys out of gas - you want EXACTLY 16 drones mining 2 per patch - after you have those 16 drones, you make only lings (be sure to replace any drones you take to build spines at your proxy)
Once your queen is out, use the energy all on tumours - you want to aggressively creep forward with spinecrawlers asap. Keep building more and more lings, you'll need them to 1) Defend your spines
2) Runby and kill workers
ZvP Hydra/Spine Variation:
+ Show Spoiler + My personal favorite, we skip lings entirely to get a very fast hydra den and use spines and hydras to push at 7:30. ![[image loading]](http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/Screenshot2011-11-1813_02_27.jpg) By having an overlord with my creep/spines, I can attack up the high ground and eventually push right up the ramp. 9Overlord 15Pool 17 Proxy Hatch 16Queen 18/18 Gas (Extractor to get your only set of lings to kill scouting worker) 4:35 Lair 4:50 3-5 Spines 6:00 Hydra Den Use all gas on hydras, all minerals on spines/queens. 7:30 Hydras are on the field! Keep pushing the creep/spines closer and using hydras in conjunction with spines to do HEAVY dps
Summary
+ Show Spoiler +So there you have it...the spinecrawler rush. As a rule of thumb, you'll want between 5 and 8 spinecrawlers - never let them get your spinecrawler count too low and you'll win. Be aware that some players will turtle up on one base and go into voidrays or dts, but remember you have a fast lair with your hydra build - and with your ling build, you can either get a few spores or just constantly build queens. For those looking to defend this style, I recommend voidrays or tanks.
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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Hehe, this actually reminds me of ZvP on Metal close positions, where I'd make like 5 spines and push the creep rapidly, and go like roach hydra ling off 2 base and win (was hard on ST close tho...).... though that wasn't proxied and was off 2 base econ and not 1 base :D
>_>
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So when do we get gas with the ZvP hydra version....
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why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Overall I liked this guide, reminiscent of NesTea's spinecrawler rush. What really made it for me, though, was....
On November 19 2011 04:34 TangSC wrote:
There are quite a few ways of doing this build, but the way I recommend first is the spine/speedling all-in, where you basically creep up with the spines and use them to break a hole for your lings to get in...
That's... that's an amazing pun. Creep up. It semi made my day. :D Keep up the good punning.
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your Country52797 Posts
If I do a decent amount of damage but don't kill them, how would I transition?
Seems like an allin.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 19 2011 05:27 TehTemplar wrote:
If I do a decent amount of damage but don't kill them, how would I transition?
Seems like an allin.
I imagine the transition would probably involve taking your own natural;; like most sort of proxy attacks, this is an all-in, but also like most proxy attacks it can do a fair amount of damage. I'd say, take your natural expansion, drone up, and scout aggressively. Against a terran player, it's possible he expoed in-base, etc, and it could become a macro game. It really depends how much damage your dealt though.
Also, slap down creep tumors in his nat and try to spread them away from his base to connect with your creep highway from your base. It will slow down his expansion and give you solid map vision.
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On November 19 2011 05:21 Host- wrote:
So when do we get gas with the ZvP hydra version....
Just a tad later, right after the hatch
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On November 19 2011 05:27 TehTemplar wrote:
Seems like an allin.
I recommend you view the post history of the OP.
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On November 19 2011 05:27 TehTemplar wrote:
If I do a decent amount of damage but don't kill them, how would I transition?
Seems like an allin.
That can't be right, an All-in guide by Tang??? 
Hmm seems pretty straightforward to me, dunno if this is really a guide worthy.
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Not to steer away from the Spine Crawler rushes, I've been bling busting a fair bit as cheesing is quite fun once in a while so I think I can provide a few tips for that.
5 Blings for a pylon/supply depot
13 for a forge/gateway
vT if they have a depotraxdepot wall, have your 5 blings hit the rax, the splash damage hits both depots and kils them both.
In regards to the actual spine crawler rush. I've been using the aXa version of it, with overlords pooping creep, 3 spines into nydus and can very much vouch for the effectiveness of something like this. Will definitely try this variation out though, straight into Hydras seems alot more potent than just lings.
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Umm... I can't understand how any Toss in masters would lose to this. I must be highly overestimating Masters skill, but off of a FFE, shouldn't you be actively scouting, as Toss? You should scout expansion timing, and if no expo, look around for proxies while throwing up cannons. Then if it's not Roach/Ling all in, expect 1 base shenanigans like nydus or spine rush?
I mean, this is so much more of a give away than the 2 base variant with fast Lair... yeah sorry, it's okay for ZvP but I don't like it as much. If you lose to this in ZvT.... well, you just got caught with your pants down and flat out no scouting. 1 base zerg in ZvT... it's either roaches, baneling bust, or proxy. That's it. Scan main base for roach/bane, when none is seen, proxy is obvious.
This is the kind of scouting I expect to run into when I hit masters... am I overestimating? No offense to masters players, I know you're all better than me.
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About this spinecrawler/hydra stuff etc, i have been doing kinda same thing.
I go for 12pool, 18 hatch and i put down my gas 19-21. If i scout FFE I occasionaly go for lair + 3 spines + hydra + speedlings (delayed speed, lair before speed) timing and it hits about 7:00 mark, what do i have about then is 3 gas with 9 drones mining and 2 fully saturated mineral-lines. I have only 4 lings on field so i need to be active with them and so on and im doing only drones because I want to have good eco (sometimes i can put down 3rd, but mby its me playing badly and missing injects) When my lair finishes, i put down hydra den, I have overlord highway ready for hydras, 1 overlord to poop creep outside of protoss vision and 3 drones to do 3 spines, and rallying some zerglings there to defend if protoss scouts it. the timing of this is right before ppl usually put down most of their gateways, but instead of when they see my 3 spines and some lings, mby hydras if I want to break wall-off faster they put down extra cannons instead of gateways. Im sorry that i dont have any exact BO / replay to show you incase if anyone is intrested in this.
But remember this is only high-diamond / low-masters level of execute / play. I just felt to share this, mby more economical build not so cheesy  .
How this differs from tang's build is; later spines and less, less zerglings because of droning (after lair I do 10-14 zlings to defend spines) expand with workers (approx. 39 workers), and slightly later hydras, but i have noticed that VR or DT's don't come so fast as my hydras so its same situation!
I'm not sure how clear this is, but i just wanted to share this to you! i hope you get hang of it!
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On November 19 2011 05:27 TehTemplar wrote:
If I do a decent amount of damage but don't kill them, how would I transition?
Seems like an allin.
You could take another base near your proxy, but this is a pretty big commitment - it's more or less an all-in. There will be 5% of games where it's theoretically correct to expand and sack the proxy but usually you want to commit to containing them to one base or killing them.
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On November 19 2011 05:42 Flonomenalz wrote:
Umm... I can't understand how any Toss in masters would lose to this. I must be highly overestimating Masters skill, but off of a FFE, shouldn't you be actively scouting, as Toss? You should scout expansion timing, and if no expo, look around for proxies while throwing up cannons. Then if it's not Roach/Ling all in, expect 1 base shenanigans like nydus or spine rush?
I mean, this is so much more of a give away than the 2 base variant with fast Lair... yeah sorry, it's okay for ZvP but I don't like it as much. If you lose to this in ZvT.... well, you just got caught with your pants down and flat out no scouting. 1 base zerg in ZvT... it's either roaches, baneling bust, or proxy. That's it. Scan main base for roach/bane, when none is seen, proxy is obvious.
This is the kind of scouting I expect to run into when I hit masters... am I overestimating? No offense to masters players, I know you're all better than me.
As far as NA is concerned, yea they're pretty bad. Yup, you're supposed to keep a scout out on the map and have a means of checking up on the zerg when you wall yourself off with a FFE but pretty much no one actually does that. When you don't know what the Zerg is up to TvZ one option is to throw down a scan, but that would be giving up an early game mule and no terran would ever do that.
As for myself, my macro still slips hardcore once in awhile, I make dumb micro mistakes, I completely misread my opponent's build, I do get supply blocked every now and then, but I hold my own in masters. So no, masters players aren't all that 98-percentile gods you think they should be.
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This isn't about what's going to beat the best players or what's the most viable build, it's a fun way to mix things up.
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I warn you – this thread is more of an experimental/for fun style and not necessary something I would recommend for maximizing your SC2 improvement.
Can you add this disclaimer to all of your past and future guides as well? Thank you.
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On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in
That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in...
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On November 19 2011 06:53 Tunzi wrote:Show nested quote +I warn you – this thread is more of an experimental/for fun style and not necessary something I would recommend for maximizing your SC2 improvement. Can you add this disclaimer to all of your past and future guides as well? Thank you.
Haha good one ^^ I don't always all-in though!
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
Nestea invented this pretty much, but with a very fast lair for overlord creep drop and it was vs a FFE that used the nexus as part of the wall
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Ok, all-in spine rush w/ proxy hatch. If it's unscouted, it makes bank. If it gets scouted, you lose.
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On November 19 2011 07:34 Conquerer67 wrote:
Ok, all-in spine rush w/ proxy hatch. If it's unscouted, it makes bank. If it gets scouted, you lose.
Well there's a game there he scouted and I still won, it's stronger than you'd think
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Yeah this sounds a lot like a typical Tang build. It's not at all viable vs someone that can scout.
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In any case a zerg that builds a proxy hatchery and starts building spines is a pretty boss idea, at the same time a little BM as well. Like a big F-U to your opponent.
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On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in...
As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this).
A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot).
Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry.
Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =)
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Well to understand you, I guess your saying in a Terran scenario (say a 9min mark):
- Using 1 medivac to drop at an expansion constantly is a strategy.
->Low-risk (due to not using many units/resources to 'commit', but a limited reward
- Using 3 medivacs to drop at a base is a more risky strategy.
-> Higher risk than 1 medivac (you use more resources), much higher reward as it can kill a lot more stuff potentially
- Using 5 medivacs to drop in a base is nearly considered an all-in
-> Well, your using nearly all your troops possible to make an attack, if you get caught out, you pretty much lose
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On November 19 2011 09:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote:On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in... As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this). A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot). Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry. Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =)
My definition of all in is something that MUST do damage or the game is pretty much over. Imagine if you will you spine crawlered someone base. You got their gateway, cybercore and forge but warp gate is already done. You cannot reach his nexus with your crawlers and his army is holding you off. How exactly do you transition out of this without instantly dying. Just because you have a lair and not a proxy hatch doesnt mean your not all in. That build has absolutely no smooth transitions, not to mention the amount of drones you've sacrificed teching and building spines.
Your question as to why not play risky can be answered quite easily. There are two forms of risk. Calculated risk (I will build 10 drones now in the hope he wont attack and therefore will be in a much stronger position later), and plain risk (I will build spines and hope he doesnt scout it.) In one case, the risk can be punished with an attack but if held off you will be way ahead. In the other risk, if you dont win, its over.
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On November 19 2011 09:31 Zariel wrote:
Well to understand you, I guess your saying in a Terran scenario (say a 9min mark):
- Using 1 medivac to drop at an expansion constantly is a strategy.
->Low-risk (due to not using many units/resources to 'commit', but a limited reward
- Using 3 medivacs to drop at a base is a more risky strategy.
-> Higher risk than 1 medivac (you use more resources), much higher reward as it can kill a lot more stuff potentially
- Using 5 medivacs to drop in a base is nearly considered an all-in
-> Well, your using nearly all your troops possible to make an attack, if you get caught out, you pretty much lose
Nice example. To analyze it from a risk/reward perspective:
* the risk of getting the medivacs scouted is always the same, regardless how many you send
* the major element of a drop is the element of surprise and you usually profit, that your opponent is out of position. This effect is independent of the drop-size. However the larger the drop, the more damage you'll deal until his army arrives.
* an all-in drop pays off only if your opponent has not a matching army
* the larger the drop, the weaker your defense against counter attacks.
* a conclusion is: far expansions can be dropped with one medi only, since it takes a lot of time until defending army arrives. If you drop the main you'll probably need more than one medivac, since you have less time to deal damage. So dropping the main is more risky than dropping far expansions, however the reward in the main might be worth it (e.g. tech snipe)
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On November 19 2011 11:16 BrassMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 09:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On November 19 2011 07:11 BrassMonkey wrote:On November 19 2011 05:23 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
why not try fast lair and use ovie creep ? a proxy hatch is quite an investment and makes this pretty much all in That is suggesting that fast lair, ovie creep and spine crawlering your opponents natural is not all in... As you do not require that much damage then to be even, its less all-in. its still risky, but wtf why not play risky ? at least its a matter of risk/reward. i think getting nat+fast lair into spine rush has a better risk/reward than proxy hatch (that's probably why nestea prefers this). A lot of you "serious" guys don't get it, imho. There is no hard line between "serious" play and all-in. There are risky builds involving pushes which *have to* pay off. And there are less risky builds which are more forgiving in case your harass/attack fails. A risky build with a high probability of success is good (ofc the winrate might depend on skill level a lot). Pushes/semi-all-ins are urgently needed metagame-wise in order to prevent the other races from cutting corners to much. There is a reason why a lot of P and Terrans do not scout all that much against zerg, as most Zergs play the same greedy macro style, so no need to worry. Any win depends on your opponent making errors (else the game would be imbalanced), so there is no fundamental difference between cheese and a long-winded macro game. Cheese just squeezes the gamble in a shorter time frame =) My definition of all in is something that MUST do damage or the game is pretty much over.
Definitely opinion vs opinion here but I think that's a terrible definition. It's like saying 6pool is all in because it must do some form of damage, well no shit why wouldn't it do damage? Unless you made lings to /dance around your base they will always do some form of damage.
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I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright.
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whats ur mid highmaster eu account. tangssc or so with 20 wins and 40 loses and 300 points in master?
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On November 20 2011 00:28 Bad_Habit wrote:
whats ur mid highmaster eu account. tangssc or so with 20 wins and 40 loses and 300 points in master?
CoachTang. he has like 500 points or something.
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On November 20 2011 00:22 TangSC wrote:
I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright.
Yes, but normal in game attacks don't always rely on not being scouted.
Take a ZvP for example, say the P went FFE --> 6 gate blink pressure while taking third, and the Zerg went 3 hatch before Lair.
Your opponent can know full well you're going 6 gate blink, while taking a third behind it. You can then just sit at his ramp and scare him into making more and more units while you catch up in econ, or you can try to kill his third/do damage while escaping with good blink micro.
But with all your builds, if you get scouted you SHOULD ALWAYS lose. You're not executing any attacks that are leading to a mind game or micro battle between players, you're executing builds that flat out either will work or they won't. There's nothing new about this, it's been done before.
All-ins in certain situations, like taking advantage of an opponent's greed or him cutting a slight corner in his build, make sense (i.e. Using spotting OL to see how many cannons FFE player built, then punishing him for only building 1 cannon with Roach/Ling all in, and even if he might scout it, his extra cannons might not get down in time.
There's no such thinking in your builds. It's just flat out "Well I sure hope he doesn't scout me at all for the entire game". That's it.
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On November 20 2011 01:05 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 00:22 TangSC wrote:
I don't think "all-in" or "cheese" should be regarded so negatively, because if you're executing an attack it's almost guaranteed SOME measure of damage and those with the best fundamentals and execution will be able to pull out of a situation where they committed to an attack and didn't win the game outright. Yes, but normal in game attacks don't always rely on not being scouted. Take a ZvP for example, say the P went FFE --> 6 gate blink pressure while taking third, and the Zerg went 3 hatch before Lair. Your opponent can know full well you're going 6 gate blink, while taking a third behind it. You can then just sit at his ramp and scare him into making more and more units while you catch up in econ, or you can try to kill his third/do damage while escaping with good blink micro. But with all your builds, if you get scouted you SHOULD ALWAYS lose. You're not executing any attacks that are leading to a mind game or micro battle between players, you're executing builds that flat out either will work or they won't. There's nothing new about this, it's been done before. All-ins in certain situations, like taking advantage of an opponent's greed or him cutting a slight corner in his build, make sense (i.e. Using spotting OL to see how many cannons FFE player built, then punishing him for only building 1 cannon with Roach/Ling all in, and even if he might scout it, his extra cannons might not get down in time. There's no such thinking in your builds. It's just flat out "Well I sure hope he doesn't scout me at all for the entire game". That's it.
It's pretty unlikely they'll scout your proxy location. And even if they do, if they're already committed to taking a FFE it's very difficult to hold even if they scout.
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Someone used this against me on Shakuras recently, but I hit a lucky timing with +1 stalkers/zealots and 6 VRs. He had hydras, but with gateway support and 6 vrs, hydras just die.
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Lol, I already feared I would be in the replay pack ^^
I'm not sure what's the best way to react to it. I scouted it instantly but decided to make a lot of cannons and got destroyed. I think it's best to make an extra gateway and a stargate for voidrays, cb units out of the gates and add a bunch of cannons as late as possible.
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experimental? people have been doing this for ages... of course i've only faced it on public customs because it's such a silly strat.
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On November 20 2011 04:53 Arcanefrost wrote:
Lol, I already feared I would be in the replay pack ^^
I'm not sure what's the best way to react to it. I scouted it instantly but decided to make a lot of cannons and got destroyed. I think it's best to make an extra gateway and a stargate for voidrays, cb units out of the gares and add a bunch of cannons as late as possible.
I think you're right with vrays, once you get to 3 it's very difficult to keep my spines alive.
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While this may be a good idea, I think a better way would be to get your two bases up and create a queen at the natural hatchery when it completes. Then, you drone up while sending the queen at your natural to the protoss. Once the queen gets close, you bring a drone and build a hatchery outside the protoss's natural. You cancel the hatchery and poop a tumor on the remaining creep left behind from the hatchery. Then you just make spines and win. Comes pretty quick and you dont need hydras.
Yeah I haven't tested or played with this or anything, just theorycrafting here.
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why is the guide called "...experimental..." when it's a guide? seems like a contradiction... anyways your ideas aren't really refined or new but more of a calling to use spines more. I can agree on that.
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On November 20 2011 07:48 Lebzetu wrote:
While this may be a good idea, I think a better way would be to get your two bases up and create a queen at the natural hatchery when it completes. Then, you drone up while sending the queen at your natural to the protoss. Once the queen gets close, you bring a drone and build a hatchery outside the protoss's natural. You cancel the hatchery and poop a tumor on the remaining creep left behind from the hatchery. Then you just make spines and win. Comes pretty quick and you dont need hydras.
Yeah I haven't tested or played with this or anything, just theorycrafting here.
I tried that a few times - using my 3rd base as the proxy and it's just too late, the spines are too delayed  I've had the greatest success with a well-timed 1base into Proxy hatch with 3 spines right away and a few more added on and then using mass ling or pure hydra/spine to slowpush.
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Then, you drone up while sending the queen at your natural to the protoss.
I dont see a queen doing a quiet travel in a serious game. Any unit can kill a queen out of creep, even a very few probes (well I will assume queen is covered by lings, but still a zealot will kill her before she even reach a watchtower imo)
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On November 20 2011 08:40 Tikan wrote:I dont see a queen doing a quiet travel in a serious game. Any unit can kill a queen out of creep, even a very few probes (well I will assume queen is covered by lings, but still a zealot will kill her before she even reach a watchtower imo)
Yes but you can guard her.
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How do people lose to Tang with builds like this....
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On November 20 2011 15:53 schmutttt wrote:
How do people lose to Tang with builds like this....
It's very hard to hold once the spines are up and creep is started. Shouldn't imply that the players shouldn't have lost, it's not like it's something they've run into often.
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On November 21 2011 07:44 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 15:53 schmutttt wrote:
How do people lose to Tang with builds like this.... It's very hard to hold once the spines are up and creep is started. Shouldn't imply that the players shouldn't have lost, it's not like it's something they've run into often.
Just means they're bad @ scouting & reacting.
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On November 21 2011 07:52 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 07:44 TangSC wrote:On November 20 2011 15:53 schmutttt wrote:
How do people lose to Tang with builds like this.... It's very hard to hold once the spines are up and creep is started. Shouldn't imply that the players shouldn't have lost, it's not like it's something they've run into often. Just means they're bad @ scouting & reacting.
So negative lol maybe they could have held a bit better, doesn't mean they're bad
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I've held this rush before with stargate asap, then denied his third. But this Zerg was hardly near GM, just high masters, so idk... It is VERY hard to hold though, I must admit, I barely won.
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On November 21 2011 13:15 xlava wrote:
I've held this rush before with stargate asap, then denied his third. But this Zerg was hardly near GM, just high masters, so idk... It is VERY hard to hold though, I must admit, I barely won.
Did you forge fast expand? I think your response was correct in getting a very fast stargate, in my experience with this build fast vrays has been the hardest to break. As long as you rapidly spread your creep/spines and keep constant queen production at your proxy you should be able to break it before too many voidrays come out.
It'll then come down to micro and game sense, as you'll either need to defend your spines with queens (or hydras if you transitioned) while quickly pushing into the protoss base - if he keeps his natural he wins so you MUST deny that base. Once he's contained to one base, you should be able to out produce him with spines/spores/lings/queens but against a smart player it'll be a tight defense (and a very fun game  )
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On November 20 2011 08:40 Tikan wrote:I dont see a queen doing a quiet travel in a serious game. Any unit can kill a queen out of creep, even a very few probes (well I will assume queen is covered by lings, but still a zealot will kill her before she even reach a watchtower imo)
I think the queen would take WAY too long to be effective.
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On November 21 2011 07:52 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 07:44 TangSC wrote:On November 20 2011 15:53 schmutttt wrote:
How do people lose to Tang with builds like this.... It's very hard to hold once the spines are up and creep is started. Shouldn't imply that the players shouldn't have lost, it's not like it's something they've run into often. Just means they're bad @ scouting & reacting.
Meh, people don't know how to react to something until they lose to it.
@Post above me
How would that take long? It would take shorter than getting hydras, thats for true.
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Hey,
I've been doing this build for quite some time now. I call it the Attack Hatch. Forces the Protoss to not be complacent. Even if they scout it, it may be hard to stop. I find it best against FFE Protoss.
The real idea is to use the creep as a weapon and come rolling in like a tidal wave using spine crawlers, smashing their buildings and eating up anything the creep touches. Make a minimum of 5 spine crawlers, make more as you need them. Timing is everything, kill the scouts, and get the drones to the hatch as it pops. It's important to continue queen production at the Attach Hatch to counter any void ray play. The Queen's primary role is to heal the spine crawlers and support. You only need 2-3 tumors as long as they don't kill them, rest of energy for healing. Get full saturation of minerals at main then make zerglings. One spray on hatch with first queen at main, then run that bitch to the attack hatch and make a tumor.
Micro like a crazy person.
Here are 3 replays:
http://thegamespage.com/staff/knp/sc2replays/Nov_2011/
These are a gas-less variation, with a focus on making queens and attacking asap. I could have done a better job expanding behind the attack in these replays. Protoss' best option IMO is to go fast Immortals to shut down the push.
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On November 23 2011 11:19 knp wrote:Hey, I've been doing this build for quite some time now. I call it the Attack Hatch. Forces the Protoss to not be complacent. Even if they scout it, it may be hard to stop. I find it best against FFE Protoss. The real idea is to use the creep as a weapon and come rolling in like a tidal wave using spine crawlers, smashing their buildings and eating up anything the creep touches. Make a minimum of 5 spine crawlers, make more as you need them. Timing is everything, kill the scouts, and get the drones to the hatch as it pops. It's important to continue queen production at the Attach Hatch to counter any void ray play. The Queen's primary role is to heal the spine crawlers and support. You only need 2-3 tumors as long as they don't kill them, rest of energy for healing. Get full saturation of minerals at main then make zerglings. One spray on hatch with first queen at main, then run that bitch to the attack hatch and make a tumor. Micro like a crazy person. Here are 3 replays: http://thegamespage.com/staff/knp/sc2replays/These are a gas-less variation, with a focus on making queens and attacking asap. I could have done a better job expanding behind the attack in these replays. Protoss' best option IMO is to go fast Immortals to shut down the push.
Thanks for the replays, I agree with queen production at expansion and saving a lot of energy for transfuse. I've been having trouble against immortals, do you ever beat players who respond with fast immortals?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HlyA8.jpg)
