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What bothers me about this is how it plays on the weakness of zerg... like you almost must 14 pool or hatch first to remain competitive... therefore anything else is crazy and does not contribute to you getting better. You see pros losing to this complaining about it.... Anyone can do this... (Is not really true either)
But meh. Great set of replays...
Be good.
When you understand why you reje
huh? He just said that hatch first was hard to deal with when going 6 pool. Apparently his version of the 6 pool isn't meant specifically for hatch first, but 14/14 and I guess 'anything' zerg can do. And I don't know what's so crazy about 14 pool and hatch first, both are very safe and conservative builds. Why would you prefer to 10 pool when you can hatch first?
ill write something about how to counter it decent taday in the evening. basicly the best thing you can do is moving ur drones to a mineralpatch that is inbetween 2 other mineralpatches. keep spamming move command (right click) on this mineralpatch. by this he cant do anything because as soon as he wants to fight there u attackmove out of this and will oneshot a ling because all the drones will attack even tho they are in exactly the same spot. its basicly what you see in the video below only for defense purpose
ah quite original lol! Nice. What about dealing with spines (ie how does hatch firster defend against them or address them, and should they make their own).
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On November 09 2011 03:15 AA.spoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote:
Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._. The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
Delusional much?
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We should all really cheese before learning macro games.
You don't have the right to discuss your macro superiority if you can't get passed the early game without a opponent leaving you alone. There's something to gain from all styles of play, whether it be microing small engagements or making lots of workers.
Imagine if Idra drop his whole personal rule set and properly learned to six pool. You might see his micro management go from "non exsistant" to damn good. Miracles however are not likely occurances.
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On November 09 2011 16:06 Bananasword01 wrote:
We should all really cheese before learning macro games.
You don't have the right to discuss your macro superiority if you can't get passed the early game without a opponent leaving you alone. There's something to gain from all styles of play, whether it be microing small engagements or making lots of workers.
Imagine if Idra drop his whole personal rule set and properly learned to six pool. You might see his micro management go from "non exsistant" to damn good. Miracles however are not likely occurances.
lol cheesing yourself doesn't help you defend against it if its all you do playing against it is how to improve not just 6 pool and be like "well this helps me!" lol.
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very bm chat and very bm playstyle. we can all agree that it is bm to do this, especially on ladder. no matter how much people like to hide it, we all know it. op if you read this, i'm very disappointed and especially disgusted in your decision to flaunt this here for attention/pride. why are you teaching people to 6pool...[2] i was also surprised when you called people bm for being upset when you did this to them. is it worth inflicting emotional pain on people for wins like this? maybe focus more on having fun and less on taking advantage of people in desperate attempt for wins.
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Wow congrats on doing this man. Im surprised you made it all the way to GM!
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On November 09 2011 16:08 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 16:06 Bananasword01 wrote:
We should all really cheese before learning macro games.
You don't have the right to discuss your macro superiority if you can't get passed the early game without a opponent leaving you alone. There's something to gain from all styles of play, whether it be microing small engagements or making lots of workers.
Imagine if Idra drop his whole personal rule set and properly learned to six pool. You might see his micro management go from "non exsistant" to damn good. Miracles however are not likely occurances. lol cheesing yourself doesn't help you defend against it if its all you do playing against it is how to improve not just 6 pool and be like "well this helps me!" lol.
By cheesing you'll learn similar small scale T1 micro required to defend the same cheese when you start playing macro games.
i.e. If you're winning by crossing the map with drones and microing them, then you'll have that skill and the defenders advantage when you're the one playing for the long game and standard.
How could you even dispute that with your blue robe on, or did you get it by making tonnes of drones?
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i think his ZvT 6pool is actually extremely powerful on all maps with a rush distance less than or equal to taldar arim (which isnt saying much, however newer GSL maps seem to have a even bigger rush distance)
most terran will 9depot, 12rax, gas, OC after rax, depot after OC (completing the wall) as their standard bo
and this ZvT 6pool totally destroys that because the workers start fighting the terran right as hes trying to make that depot then lings come and can kill the rax forcing it to lift off or die, and the marine gets killed as it tries to come out, then the drones+lings kill all the terran SCV's
this type of 6pool ive never really seen before. it seems to be the strongest way to 6pool terran.
the 6pool+drones Idra did to jinro long ago in the GSL wasnt as strong as this because this one has drones attacking/harassing the 2nd depot way earlier
i think this strategy could cause a bunch of problems for terrans in tournaments trying to open 9/12+gas/OC because their zerg opponent could simply decide to use this 6pool and instant-win
however, this 6pool will auto lose to a 12/14 rax that walls the ramp with 2rax/depot. and that would be the safest terran build if you thouht your enemy might 6pool
i think the way to beat this going 9/12 is you build your depot+ rax by your CC, then if lings come you build the marine and make a bunker next to the rax and rally the rax into the bunker (does that work? i think it does) that way your marine wont die and it can go into the bunker
if your enemy doesnt 6pool, then you use 2nd depot + factory at your ramp to wall off. problem here is you have to fly your barracks to complete the wall, or probably you can just finish the wall with your third depot and not need to fly out your rax that way you dont lose rax production time
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On November 09 2011 16:15 kysBad_Habit wrote:
very bm chat and very bm playstyle. we can all agree that it is bm to do this, especially on ladder. no matter how much people like to hide it, we all know it. op if you read this, i'm very disappointed and especially disgusted in your decision to flaunt this here for attention/pride. why are you teaching people to 6pool...[2] i was also surprised when you called people bm for being upset when you did this to them. is it worth inflicting emotional pain on people for wins like this? maybe focus more on having fun and less on taking advantage of people in desperate attempt for wins.
You should read the guy who has this blog about drone rushing. It was spotlighted even!
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By cheesing you'll learn similar small scale T1 micro required to defend the same cheese when you start playing macro games.
I don't think you know what you are talking about at all lol.
It's generally agreed that there are a lot of all-ins/cheese that are much easier to execute than defend against, like 1/1/1 and 2 rax. Even the best pros lose to 2 rax, but to execute a 2 rax is quite easy. Some things, such as Select's Shakuras 2 rax where you ramp blocks on the large ramp, or plain old ramp wall-in cannon rushes, are just plain abusive and win through flawed map design, and even regardless, are just extremely easy to execute but very tough to hold.
So... i dont think you really know what you are talking about.
There's also a lot of cheeses where micro is less important than just having the right response (you could micro like a pro with blink, stalkers, or stargate against 1/1/1, or you can just go 1 gate expand robo and hold it with no micro and take less losses). Sometimes micro is important, like knowing how to how a 6 pool when going hatch first, but you are micro'ing drones, not zerglings, so the micro is totally different.
How could you even dispute that with your blue robe on, or did you get it by making tonnes of drones?
Wow. You won't last here long.
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Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something.
Thx for making the game a bit more annoying.
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Thought quite a bit about this yesterday.
I have come to the opinion that this is actually an OK thing to do, I think old cheeses should never be forgotten, ultimately you want your standart BO to be safe against everything and you want to be able to win even if your opponent would maphack. I think it might prevent something like the second coming of ActionJesus(Pun semi-intended). By that I mean, if pro's get cheesed every now and again they will not fall for it in a tournament, meaning we see less upsets, possibly..
So it's OK as long as you don't win this way against me. (I have a tendency to rage hard if someone wins just because I forgot something)
Also this might finally forces Protoss to build the Forge near their ramp and think of better Simcities afterwards.
I always get my forge on the top of my ramp, because I got 6pooled quite often.
OP, is there a way to win if I get a 13 forge at the top of my ramp? I mean I should be able to block you out completely and get a Cannon pretty fast.
And please, edit the text blocks in your spoilers so that you can read this "guide" without vomiting all over it. I really tried but always lost myself in the sheer amount of letters....
On November 09 2011 16:48 Ksyper wrote:
Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something.
Thx for making the game a bit more annoying.
I doubt it was ever OPs intention to become the greatest gamer of all time/win tournaments/stay Rank1 for the next 17 Months with this build
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Bulgaria511 Posts
i cant believe how many trolls are eating this thread.give this guy a break,hes teaching you things noone would care to teach you.the micro tricks,the hold position trick with injured drones,the hold position trick when attacking with drones,the trick with the mineral patch between other 2 mineral patches....the ones who really disgust here are you,unthankful phylosophers stuck in bronze.
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On November 09 2011 17:21 rEalGuapo wrote:Thought quite a bit about this yesterday. I have come to the opinion that this is actually an OK thing to do, I think old cheeses should never be forgotten, ultimately you want your standart BO to be safe against everything and you want to be able to win even if your opponent would maphack. I think it might prevent something like the second coming of ActionJesus(Pun semi-intended). By that I mean, if pro's get cheesed every now and again they will not fall for it in a tournament, meaning we see less upsets, possibly.. So it's OK as long as you don't win this way against me. (I have a tendency to rage hard if someone wins just because I forgot something) Also this might finally forces Protoss to build the Forge near their ramp and think of better Simcities afterwards. I always get my forge on the top of my ramp, because I got 6pooled quite often. OP, is there a way to win if I get a 13 forge at the top of my ramp? I mean I should be able to block you out completely and get a Cannon pretty fast. And please, edit the text blocks in your spoilers so that you can read this "guide" without vomiting all over it. I really tried but always lost myself in the sheer amount of letters.... Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 16:48 Ksyper wrote:
Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something.
Thx for making the game a bit more annoying. I doubt it was ever OPs intention to become the greatest gamer of all time/win tournaments/stay Rank1 for the next 17 Months with this build
to beat 6pool you wanna 14forge (double chronoboosts before forge) and scout at 9 and 14 (assuming your 9 didnt find him yet)
only FFE on maps where you can wall with 2gate/forge and a single pylon. if you cant do this 6pool beats you
cut probe production at i think 16, this gives you enough minerals to finish the wall if you scout 6pool
you scout 6pool, you complete 2gate/forge wall then make a cannon behind it. zergs attack the wall, by the time a forge/gateway goes down all your probes should be there to fight/block (you wanna pull your probes at the perfect time so they arrive fast enough to block and stop a runby) to attack the lings and prevent a runby. remake wall and cannon protects it.
if you dont scout 6pool, drop nexus then cannon
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On November 09 2011 16:31 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +By cheesing you'll learn similar small scale T1 micro required to defend the same cheese when you start playing macro games. I don't think you know what you are talking about at all lol. It's generally agreed that there are a lot of all-ins/cheese that are much easier to execute than defend against, like 1/1/1 and 2 rax. Even the best pros lose to 2 rax, but to execute a 2 rax is quite easy. Some things, such as Select's Shakuras 2 rax where you ramp blocks on the large ramp, or plain old ramp wall-in cannon rushes, are just plain abusive and win through flawed map design, and even regardless, are just extremely easy to execute but very tough to hold. So... i dont think you really know what you are talking about. There's also a lot of cheeses where micro is less important than just having the right response (you could micro like a pro with blink, stalkers, or stargate against 1/1/1, or you can just go 1 gate expand robo and hold it with no micro and take less losses). Sometimes micro is important, like knowing how to how a 6 pool when going hatch first, but you are micro'ing drones, not zerglings, so the micro is totally different. Show nested quote +How could you even dispute that with your blue robe on, or did you get it by making tonnes of drones? Wow. You won't last here long.
Higher Micro skill = Less requirement to commit fully to a cheese defence, allowing for you to come out of such situations well ahead. e.g. Get a cannon that can't move, or micro your T1 that can counter attack. Drones and zergling micro are not that far different and the ability to execute things on the side are precisely the same. It's like you're trying to call me out on stupidity while presenting a point that half agrees and half doesn't because of some situations... except that I claim you should do it in order to learn for the situation where micro matters, before working on standard builds that may require deviations that you may not have to fully commit to with better micro. It's all important sure but how can I be wrong to say you should start on one end of the spectrum rather than the other. Answer is objectively I'm not.
Honestly are you even trying? Also if TL bans me for calling out a blue robe I'll laugh and depart the old boys club with sufficient proof that it isn't worth my time.
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Although the micro tricks are nice and useful I still think that "strats" that end the game before the 5th minute are stupid cheese and eventually they are gonna get tweaked like we have witnesed with marine building time, zealot building time, no barracks before supply depot, barracks build time increase, units(and cannons) vision up ramps ...etc.
Guess no spawning pool before overlord would destroy your ranking in sc2 and turn all your builds obsolete.
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Nice walkthrough, but for the love of God, fix your spelling. This made it frustrating to read.
It's a mature forum.
Very helpful hints, however
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On November 09 2011 17:35 Giantt wrote:
Although the micro tricks are nice and useful I still think that "strats" that end the game before the 5th minute are stupid cheese and eventually they are gonna get tweaked like we have witnesed with marine building time, zealot building time, no barracks before supply depot, barracks build time increase, units(and cannons) vision up ramps ...etc.
Guess no spawning pool before overlord would destroy your ranking in sc2 and turn all your builds obsolete.
i disagree with this
i feel 6pool should be viable. i think early pools should be a part of the game
meaning, if you suspect your enemy will open something greedy, you can go early pool for instant win
early rushes need to exist for safe builds to be important
i actually thought it was kind of dumb blizzard nerfs everything that beats hatch first in ZvT. rax was nerfed by 5 seconds because of 2rax rushes but i guess its blizzards game they feel hatch first should be zergs standard zvt and anything they feel is overpowered they nerf
also i think marine buildtime has never been nerfed. wasnt it always 25 seconds even in early beta?
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On November 09 2011 17:31 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 17:21 rEalGuapo wrote:Thought quite a bit about this yesterday. I have come to the opinion that this is actually an OK thing to do, I think old cheeses should never be forgotten, ultimately you want your standart BO to be safe against everything and you want to be able to win even if your opponent would maphack. I think it might prevent something like the second coming of ActionJesus(Pun semi-intended). By that I mean, if pro's get cheesed every now and again they will not fall for it in a tournament, meaning we see less upsets, possibly.. So it's OK as long as you don't win this way against me. (I have a tendency to rage hard if someone wins just because I forgot something) Also this might finally forces Protoss to build the Forge near their ramp and think of better Simcities afterwards. I always get my forge on the top of my ramp, because I got 6pooled quite often. OP, is there a way to win if I get a 13 forge at the top of my ramp? I mean I should be able to block you out completely and get a Cannon pretty fast. And please, edit the text blocks in your spoilers so that you can read this "guide" without vomiting all over it. I really tried but always lost myself in the sheer amount of letters.... On November 09 2011 16:48 Ksyper wrote:
Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something.
Thx for making the game a bit more annoying. I doubt it was ever OPs intention to become the greatest gamer of all time/win tournaments/stay Rank1 for the next 17 Months with this build to beat 6pool you wanna 14forge (double chronoboosts before forge) and scout at 9 and 14 (assuming your 9 didnt find him yet) only FFE on maps where you can wall with 2gate/forge and a single pylon. if you cant do this 6pool beats you cut probe production at i think 16, this gives you enough minerals to finish the wall if you scout 6pool you scout 6pool, you complete 2gate/forge wall then make a cannon behind it. zergs attack the wall, by the time a forge/gateway goes down all your probes should be there to fight/block (you wanna pull your probes at the perfect time so they arrive fast enough to block and stop a runby) to attack the lings and prevent a runby. remake wall and cannon protects it. if you dont scout 6pool, drop nexus then cannon
I don't understand your intention, I asked if he can pull off a win even if I get forge first at the top of my ramp and you advise me on how to beat 6pool...?
Guess what with a completed forge at the top of your ramp you can instantly get a Cannon and then complete the walloff with a gate, minimal probe cut required ezpz win from thereon, at least against a friend of mine who doesn't play Zerg and did like his first 6pool to test this.
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If someone can write this much on the simplest build in the game, i expect our liquipedia pages to be chapters upon chapters!
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EPT
