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Pogolol
United States12 Posts
Most ZvT's i play I usually hatch first and go muta / ling only(usually the games over by here, but if they go mech ill get ultras, and I usually lose or end the game in a base trade vs bio). Should I go Muta/Ling/Bling or some other combo? I really dont know what to do vs bio in general. Banelings seem like a good choice but Im not sure.. Thanks for any info.. If you see anything else I could improve my gameplay on please let me know! http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14942 -Pogo | ||
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TaKiTaKi
Germany58 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Marooned
Norway161 Posts
Watched the replay real fast. Before I watched I thaught he had 3-3 marines against 1-1 ling/bling or something like that, but you did a good job on upgrades, and were ahead as long as I watched the replay. Nice  Nr. 1 problem in the end there was no banelings. And I kinda didnt notice your creepspread so I will just assume it wasnt there. You should strive to have creep to at least the middle of the map at the time of the big engagement. If t has good marine control he can spread his marines and kill off most if not all of the banelings before they connect off creep. Fact is, a large ball of stimmed marines like that will just rape any ammount of pure lings. He didnt even had to stim. You can surround the outer rimmes of the "ball" but the majority of your lings wont do any damage. With banes you force terran to split his marines or die. Lings are naturally alot better against marines that are spread out, and baneling splash will kill alot of clumped marines unless he splits like a bot. But fixing that is easy, make a baneling nest, research baneling speed, select some lings and hold e. But this is imo what lost you the game: - Lair too fast (you scouted 2 rax. you dont need lair that fast then) - Really fast double evo and a spine (thats 3 drones early on) yet again you scouted a 2 rax, and you made a LOT of lings so the spine was not needed, and you couldnt really afford double upgrades that quick. - You started your spire pretty early, but not shockingly early if you go by the game timer. But, it was inzanely early if you count in the fact that you had 18 harvesters at the time your spire went down. - At the 9 min mark when your spire was halfway'ish you have taken all 4 gasses, and that is good since you plan on going muta, but you have only 11 harvesters on minerals spread out on 2 bases. At the 15 min mark you have 45 workers while the terran has 55. You are behind in harvesters pretty much the entire game witch is not good at all when you take in account that the terran have mules as well :-o | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
Once you see that he is making mass marines you MUST start double upgrading your zerglings. 3/3 marines are insanely strong and you need to have 3/3 lings to have any hope. Your upgrades were good so you're fine on that front. Banelings are good, but you will find that eventually you don't have enough gas to make enough banes to deal with the endless swarm of marines coming out of 20+ barracks. Some zergs have done the following to me and it seems to have worked well. -Harass with mutas and locate his marine ball on the map. Once you see him react to the mutas attack the marines in middle of the map with ling/baneling. A lot of terrans, including me, make the mistake of focusing too much on the mutas so they often won't react fast enough to avoid the banelings in the middle of the map. -Burrow banelings everywhere unless he is massing ravens. The mass marine build is super mineral heavy and relies on MULES. If you can force scans you decrease the number of marines coming out pretty substantially. -Deny expansions as best you can. Drop creep, burrow zerglings, harass a CC turning into a PF, anything to slow down expansions. Mass marine isn't that great unless you can get enough income to constantly build 20+ marines at a time. -Make only enough mutas to deal with drops and then make infestors and banelings. It is extremely difficult to deal with both infestors and banelings at the same time. Plus, as long as you keep the infestors alive you don't have to spend gas to kill the marines. I am only mid-master level player and my micro isn't amazing, this is only my personal experience as a terran using the mass marine/medivac build. | ||
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Pogolol
United States12 Posts
On November 03 2011 06:03 SnipedSoul wrote: I often go mass marine in TvZ and the real key to the strategy is mass expanding and upgrades. The strength of the build is that you are constantly applying pressure to the zerg forcing them to spend gas (banelings) to take out your mineral only units (marines). Once you see that he is making mass marines you MUST start double upgrading your zerglings. 3/3 marines are insanely strong and you need to have 3/3 lings to have any hope. Your upgrades were good so you're fine on that front. Banelings are good, but you will find that eventually you don't have enough gas to make enough banes to deal with the endless swarm of marines coming out of 20+ barracks. Some zergs have done the following to me and it seems to have worked well. -Harass with mutas and locate his marine ball on the map. Once you see him react to the mutas attack the marines in middle of the map with ling/baneling. A lot of terrans, including me, make the mistake of focusing too much on the mutas so they often won't react fast enough to avoid the banelings in the middle of the map. -Burrow banelings everywhere unless he is massing ravens. The mass marine build is super mineral heavy and relies on MULES. If you can force scans you decrease the number of marines coming out pretty substantially. -Deny expansions as best you can. Drop creep, burrow zerglings, harass a CC turning into a PF, anything to slow down expansions. Mass marine isn't that great unless you can get enough income to constantly build 20+ marines at a time. -Make only enough mutas to deal with drops and then make infestors and banelings. It is extremely difficult to deal with both infestors and banelings at the same time. Plus, as long as you keep the infestors alive you don't have to spend gas to kill the marines. I am only mid-master level player and my micro isn't amazing, this is only my personal experience as a terran using the mass marine/medivac build. Thanks for the help, ill try and harass as much as I can with Mutas, but I really didnt feel comfortable going up against the number of turrets that were up untill i had 20+ mutas on the map. But as a terran how do you lose this match? The way you describe it just sounds as if the Zerg is just defending endlessly against the swarm of marines, but when would I really attack? Mutas are there for harass but I dont see them winning the game unless its a base trade scenario. For exmaple, if I kill your army in mid, and I get to your base with my army in shambles,you could clean up the remaining lings/blings, right? And once you do kill the rest of my army, i need to make mine back as fast as yours to defend against your marines that are going to push out a second time? Actually now that I think about it my mutas harass may slow that marine production down.. hmm.. Nevertheless, where do you lose when doing this strat vs Z? Also I will try the burrowed lings.. I've seen it done but never think to do it in a game, thanks .You say only make enough mutas to deal with drops, but if I do this, then I lose some of my harass, no(Im afraid if I dont make enough mutas, turrets will just be too big a threat to do any harass)? Thanks for the help though! Much appreciated. On November 03 2011 05:25 TaKiTaKi wrote: Haven't watched the replay, but regarding your question about Bio: Yes, Banelings are way to go. Bio doesn't have any AOE so Banelings are super effective. Ling/Bling/Muta is the reason why Bio isn't standard in TvZ anymore. When I say bio I mean yeah MMM, but also I usually see 4-5 tanks mixed in aswell. On November 03 2011 05:57 Marooned wrote: Hey man, Watched the replay real fast. Before I watched I thaught he had 3-3 marines against 1-1 ling/bling or something like that, but you did a good job on upgrades, and were ahead as long as I watched the replay. Nice Nr. 1 problem in the end there was no banelings. And I kinda didnt notice your creepspread so I will just assume it wasnt there. You should strive to have creep to at least the middle of the map at the time of the big engagement. If t has good marine control he can spread his marines and kill off most if not all of the banelings before they connect off creep. Fact is, a large ball of stimmed marines like that will just rape any ammount of pure lings. He didnt even had to stim. You can surround the outer rimmes of the "ball" but the majority of your lings wont do any damage. With banes you force terran to split his marines or die. Lings are naturally alot better against marines that are spread out, and baneling splash will kill alot of clumped marines unless he splits like a bot. But fixing that is easy, make a baneling nest, research baneling speed, select some lings and hold e. But this is imo what lost you the game: - Lair too fast (you scouted 2 rax. you dont need lair that fast then) - Really fast double evo and a spine (thats 3 drones early on) yet again you scouted a 2 rax, and you made a LOT of lings so the spine was not needed, and you couldnt really afford double upgrades that quick. - You started your spire pretty early, but not shockingly early if you go by the game timer. But, it was inzanely early if you count in the fact that you had 18 harvesters at the time your spire went down. - At the 9 min mark when your spire was halfway'ish you have taken all 4 gasses, and that is good since you plan on going muta, but you have only 11 harvesters on minerals spread out on 2 bases. At the 15 min mark you have 45 workers while the terran has 55. You are behind in harvesters pretty much the entire game witch is not good at all when you take in account that the terran have mules as well :-o Yeah I'll for sure have to get some blings in the mix next time, I've really been basing my ZvT off of aXa's ZvT build, but I dont do it perfectly and forget a lot of key parts while playing(Well that doesnt help me much does it? lolol). I also noticed I had such few workers.. but didnt realize I had that low..wow.. I do remember being afraid of a huge marine army coming my way and so I did cut a lot of workers but I also had a lot of larvae that I couldnt spend because of being mineral starved for awhile.. obviously from lack of workers, lol. :/ Ill have to keep in mind to keep making workers, thanks for the tips and analysis. Much appreciated <3 -Pogo | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
Bio lacks AoE and is very mineral heavy. If you burrow banelings everywhere and force scans, those scans are not mules mining. The lack of AoE also means that nothing will be able to kill all of your banelings in one or two shots. Yes, he can stim and kite you, but all you have to do is run by with your speedlings and have your speedlings trap him while your banelings hit him from the front. He had 3/3 while you had 1/1...Don't ever neglect upgrades, they pay for themselves. | ||
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
On November 03 2011 06:25 Pogolol wrote: Thanks for the help, ill try and harass as much as I can with Mutas, but I really didnt feel comfortable going up against the number of turrets that were up untill i had 20+ mutas on the map. But as a terran how do you lose this match? The way you describe it just sounds as if the Zerg is just defending endlessly against the swarm of marines, but when would I really attack? Mutas are there for harass but I dont see them winning the game unless its a base trade scenario. For exmaple, if I kill your army in mid, and I get to your base with my army in shambles,you could clean up the remaining lings/blings, right? And once you do kill the rest of my army, i need to make mine back as fast as yours to defend against your marines that are going to push out a second time? Actually now that I think about it my mutas harass may slow that marine production down.. hmm.. Nevertheless, where do you lose when doing this strat vs Z? Also I will try the burrowed lings.. I've seen it done but never think to do it in a game, thanks .You say only make enough mutas to deal with drops, but if I do this, then I lose some of my harass, no(Im afraid if I dont make enough mutas, turrets will just be too big a threat to do any harass)? Thanks for the help though! Much appreciated. -Pogo Mass muta isn't that great against only marines, mutas are great against marine/tank because they can snipe tanks making your banelings much more effective. You can make a few mutas to scare the terran into making a lot of turrets or discouraging him from drops. If a few drops get thwarted by mutas Terrans tend to back off on dropping unless they are super pro like MMA. The strength of mutas is to keep the terran in his base so you can take extra expansions and get a lot of gas and larvae. Mass marine players don't care about mutas, they'll leave 15 marines and a few turrets at each base then move out with another 50+ marines. If you spend all your gas on mutas the marines will simply kill a base or two and you might end up having to sacrifice all your mutas just to survive. Then the endless swarm of marines begins and you're kind of screwed. I lose when zerg has a decent number of infestors and banelings. You only have to clean up 2-3 groups of marines to gain all the momentum. 95% of the power of making only marines is that when one army dies you have another 40+ marines sitting at your rally ready to go. If you wipe out 2-3 armies in short order using infestors and banelings then you should get some breathing room to take a base or tech up. If the terran insists on making only marines the entire game 3/3 ultras with chitinous plating are quite good, they soak up a ton of shots from the marines. I think a 3/3 ultra can take 184 shots from a 3/3 marine before it dies. I also lose when zergs keep me from mass expanding. Mass marine requires an insane mineral income to be effective. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
My overarching game plan in ZvT is roughly so: 15 hatch, 15 pool, 15 gas, allowing for fairly quick mineral economy while defended against most pressure. When comfortable or necessary, baneling nest on 2 base, as well as another gas and upgrades, heading for 1/1 reasonably fast. The theory is that ling/baneling should be enough tech to hold any reasonably standard ground army push he's likely to do anytime soon, and the evo chamber does allow for prevention of banshee harass. Grab a lair if he doesn't seem to be doing anything too devious. Baneling speed is pretty damn necessary if he's coming at you with a marine/tank push. Using the safety of ling/baneling: Drone up your bases fully (still only 2 gas!) take a third base and a macro hatch, and start considering grabbing a spire. I'm not experienced enough to know any triggers that would make mutas more / less effective, but I do know they slow the crap out of a terran pushes and make them a heck of a lot more scared to move out. Spire timing is a big random series of ??? for me, but I'm typically trying to get them at a time that allows me to use them to keep him in his base until my third is done and fully saturated, and my fourth is on its way. I'm by far not the best player in the world, but I've found this general series of goals carries me through a lot of ZvT and keeps me feeling safe and reasonably prepared to deal with whatever he's hoping to send at me... including mass marines. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
Try to not start lair versus Terran until you have the following things: - 16 drones on minerals in the main (20+ is better). - 16 drones on minerals in the expansion (20+ is better). - 3 drones on gas in main. - 3 queens. - +1 melee upgrade started - +1 carapace upgrade started. - Macro hatch started. That will improve your game ... tenfold. You are staying on way too few drones way too long. 2) When you start lair, grab 2nd 3rd and 4th gas, and make a baneling nest. Make 9 more drones to saturate the gas. Immediately on lair tech, start +2 carapace +2 melee attack and baneling speed (if you can afford it). Then put down spire and or infestation pit. This will set you up great for the midgame, feel free to be aggressive, expand, defend, etc. You need either some infestors, or mutas, to deal with medivac healing. If he goes mech heavy, you need roaches. Otherwise ling baneling heavy, with mutas and or infestors, is great vs everything Terran does. | ||
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TheUltimate
82 Posts
I play mass marine exclusively vs zerg, and I tend to win when the zerg invests any gas at all in mutas. Banelings are good for the early/mid game, but you need an infestor/bane combo in the late game if the Terran is at all capable of marine splitting. If you do get lots of spare gas (unlikely unless you're already ahead), I suppose 6 mutas would be good for shutting down drops (infestor/baneling is very slow), but usually 2 spines on every mineral line will be sufficient (until they hit 3/3). Make sure it's 2 spines though, as together they one-shot marines and make medivacs useless. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
my tvz atm is just poke with hellions (i dont commit) and go mass marine hellion push. the zergs generally just build spines/lings and tech to muta and dies to my push or atleast lose their natural. (na masters) works 80% of the time. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
You can do a couple of strategies to beat mass marines. As mentioned before, double upgraded lings and banelings are great vs. marines. The thing is though, do you make infestors or mutalisks? Well, I am a Terran that really likes to drop. If I saw that my opponent went mutas though, I would just not drop as much. Simple as that. 2-2 Marines absolutely shred mutas, no matter what the cost, no matter what the supplies. It's just that simple. I don't recommend that you go mutas BLINDLY, only do them as a reaction. If your opponent does this strategy, there are a few windows that he is completely weak and vulnerable. Before 1-1 finishes in one of those periods. 1-1 should be finishing no earlier than 8 minutes (or 7:30 if he's really fast and greedy) and before that time you are free to do whatever you want. If he opens 2 rax FE, just hold off his pressure (sorry I'm a Terran I can't really help you with that  ) and try to not make lings. When you hold his pressure, you can do a few things. You can go for a baneling bust (which is risky because if he ends up going tanks you're screwed) or you can go for a faster third. I'd recommend starting your third at 7 minutes, and getting double upgrades in time with that (starting the upgrades at 7 minutes or earlier that is) and then getting early lair and going into infestors.Power up to a solid 50 drones, and then make a huge army and get lots of tech/upgrades. You need to get this solid army for when he does push out with upgraded marines. You don't want to get caught in a bad position, but you want to know where his army is. Marines are HORRIBLE if you catch them off guard. Flank attacks, counter attacks, surrounds, you name it. You can do a ton of damage. If his marines are spread out though, you can't get great damage off on them. The thing about mutalisks that are good in this matchup: They give you complete map domination. That can work, but if they do a mass expanding strategy WHILE mass teching, that leaves them extremely vulnerable no matter how you slice it. If they do that, don't let that **** fly and go kill him!  The mutalisks won't win you engagements, and they are very expensive. Use them to DELAY PUSHES AND TO KILL PRODUCTION!!!!!!!****** That's huge if you're going to use mutalisks correctly vs this strategy. You cannot engage the marines. Even if you think you can, you're wrong. It just looks so tempting, right? WRONG! Don't use them to kill any marines. Just poke around, pick off addons, and the biggest snipe of all would be his armory/engineering bays. tl;dr The major points of this are that you need to have: A.) Double upgrades to keep up with the Terran B.) Mutas if he is dropping a lot or Infestors if you feel like he is going to make big pushes C.) Just deny his bases D.) Get Hive tech units, probably Ultralisks and Infestors combined or Broodlords and Infestors. Note: I'm a high diamond Terran, so I'm not THAT great at this game so you're probably better than me. Just trying to give a little bit of a Terran's insight. | ||
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DesolateDrone
United States16 Posts
One thing I noticed was early one there was an over production of lings, just keep hitting that D button. you want as many drones as you can get. There were a few missed larvae injects, a bit nit picky, but something I noticed. Lair came much too early. Also your third wasn't being mined out of for quite some time. Most of this is macro stuff, but if you can keep up on these things, youll be able to make the units to keep up with the mass marine style. Banlings would have been really nice in this situation, and you're also right about thinking infestors could work. Fungal is a great tool to use on marines. But just drone, drone hard and you'll find styles like this much more easy to deal with. Best of luck to ya | ||
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