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On October 29 2011 05:43 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 04:53 Anihc wrote:
I've stopped doing fast colossus > fast 3rd, and now just do gateway/immortal fast 3rd. The reason why I did the fast colossus in the past is because every zerg went infestors and colossus was good against infestors. The metagame has changed a bunch since the patch so yes the fast colossus is falling out of favor. I still like the super fast robo though (I pretty much spend my first gas on warpgate tech and then robo), and you'll have fast obs and fast warp prism too. What are your thoughts on the scouting timing with the observer? Do you feel like you need to have a full scout before you take your third? What are you looking for? How many gates do you get before taking your third? Do you get an obs, a prism and an immortal before taking your third? How do you react if Z delays his third for a lair tech (muta, infestor, roach timing)?
I'm not a GM, so take my advice for what it's worth. Constant problems that come across in PvZ are:
1) You feel desperate to constantly scout before obs is available. You must always have a good feeling of what the Zerg is doing. You must sac probes and find creative ways to scout using Zealots to achieve this.
2) You are scared that Zerg will make an army instead of drones.
3) You don't know what tech he's going for. So you just blindly pick a "strong" tech like Colo.
5 gate robo is the most standardist of the standard after you FFE. However, there is a problem with this. The obs takes forever to reach your opponent's base. You start raking up a lot of minerals during this time because you're:
1) Afraid to expand to a third because the Zerg could have a huge army.
2) Don't know what to do because you don't know the Zerg's tech.
So, my solution to this problem is that you get Hallucination and an early sentry. Hallucination allows for a one-time scout to see if the Zerg has just been making pure drones, or an army. If he's making pure drones, I don't like to pressure because you just get owned by quick Zerg production and you can't retreat from it. So if he's pure drones I just expand and cannon up the third. If he has an army, obviously get a bigger army yourself, and during this time you will have obs to see if the Zerg is continuing to make an army, or make drones.
During this time make your observers. There's is not a better time to make them, so make like 4 of them, seriously. You need to cover all important aspects of the zerg: His tech, his army size, and when he's taking expos. Keep one near your army so you can keep up with his army if he moves out and you have perfect forcefields.
This allows you to play a reactionary Protoss vs Zerg without have to pick a blind tech. You can actually say to yourself (Hmm he's making a lot of roaches, maybe I should make some immortals. Oh he's putting down a hydra den, I need colo now.)
Edit: I also want to add that against 2 base muta, it's a difficult thing to scout. You really have to master the zealot/probe sac scouting. It's something that I'm not adept at yet. So if you do happen to perfectly scout it, I think the best reaction is to go double stargate into phoenix. There are just so many flaws with the blink stalker thing/cannons in the main. How are you going cover everything with cannons? Are you sure you have enough blink stalkers at each base to counter the mutas? What about huge zergling counter attacks? Shit, hope you have enough zealots to deal with that. People really underestimate how quick you can pump out phoenix off of 2 stargates with chrono. Your gateways are left alone so you can continue to warp in a lot of zealots to counter any huge zergling counterattacks. You can take your third safely. Then you just play standard (scout and react).
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my only problem when doing this build is that mass ling infestor push...just feel like you need that colossi/storm to deal with that
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On October 30 2011 04:14 .kv wrote:
my only problem when doing this build is that mass ling infestor push...just feel like you need that colossi/storm to deal with that
I've seen Huk defend this with zealots and sentries and cannons, with great forcefields and sim-city. I'm sure it's really tough but I think it is possible to survive it.
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On October 30 2011 04:14 .kv wrote:
my only problem when doing this build is that mass ling infestor push...just feel like you need that colossi/storm to deal with that
well, obviously you can stay longer on 2base if you scout 2base play by zerg. Also like someone said before, it's not impossible to defend it with gateway units, but I guess you have to spread out sentries and have a good simcity etc.
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Would love to see some replays of this
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I still like to open stargate after FFE and then simply go a mild harass (if they already have spores just 1 void and 1 phoenix) and then get quick robo.
Scout them with the phoenix(es) while minimizing their creep spread with obs + void. Stargate play still sets you up best for going a quick third imo, without it you can't really punish them for moving out (with void + phoenix you can at least kill a few roaches for free if they move out). It also helps to stop that muta switch which is nearly inevitable if you don't go stargate and quick three bases. Most maps a muta switch gives them such a big advantage if you need to defend 3 bases that i consider stargate tech a must at that point.
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On November 01 2011 04:12 Markwerf wrote:
I still like to open stargate after FFE and then simply go a mild harass (if they already have spores just 1 void and 1 phoenix) and then get quick robo.
Scout them with the phoenix(es) while minimizing their creep spread with obs + void. Stargate play still sets you up best for going a quick third imo, without it you can't really punish them for moving out (with void + phoenix you can at least kill a few roaches for free if they move out). It also helps to stop that muta switch which is nearly inevitable if you don't go stargate and quick three bases. Most maps a muta switch gives them such a big advantage if you need to defend 3 bases that i consider stargate tech a must at that point.
Teching stargate+robo and taking a fast third leaves you without an army. And having a single stargate doesn't do crap against a muta transition. Your comment seems to suggest an entirely different strategy than the one described in this thread.
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I tried this build today and just got owned by a 200/200 roach army. I killed a hatch, ~10 drones, some lings and 2 overlods with my warp prism harass. He attacked me when I was about 140 supply and on 2 colossus. I probably didn't execute it right but somehow I feel like a passive defensive zerg is just gonna roll this build just like he rolls any fast third build from protoss.
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On November 01 2011 05:45 Whalecore wrote:
I tried this build today and just got owned by a 200/200 roach army. I killed a hatch, ~10 drones, some lings and 2 overlods with my warp prism harass. He attacked me when I was about 140 supply and on 2 colossus. I probably didn't execute it right but somehow I feel like a passive defensive zerg is just gonna roll this build just like he rolls any fast third build from protoss.
The goal of the fast third + harass is to keep up with Zerg's economy. I don't know how you wound up down 60 food, but it sounds like your problems were more about macro and forcefield micro than they were about strategy.
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EPT
