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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:33 instantdry wrote: i thought u meant 10 gateways =) Same here. I thought he meant 10-gate in a "4-gate" way rather than a "9 pylon, 13 gateway" kinda way. X-D That said, interesting build. I might give it a go but I'm not really a big fan of air play honestly. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On November 25 2011 23:56 Alpina wrote: Also in that pic zerg is on 48 drones in 14:25 min in game, if all you made to him is that few zealot harass in early game then this zerg is just awful. If I remember well, in that game that was because I successfully snipped his third, so he couldn't produce drones on 3 bases ( especially as he also had to produce lings to kill the zealots ). | ||
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eteran
Germany83 Posts
On November 25 2011 23:56 Alpina wrote: Interesting, never faced this. I guess you can really annoy zerg if you harass with zealot and move him in between the minerals. But overall I think 14 or 15 pool shouldn't have any problems with it. You send first queen to help and make like 8 lings and you defended. I doubt you gonna delay hatch for few minutes. Making 8 lings that early in the game, instead of 2, is great for the P. That could have been 3 drones instead. And for every ~30 seconds that you can delay the hatch its annother 4 drones. On November 26 2011 01:10 Lightspeaker wrote: I might give it a go but I'm not really a big fan of air play honestly. After the initial opening you can transition into pretty much anything you want. When I suspect immediate agression I throw down a total of 3 cannons and start to chrono out sentries. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 26 2011 01:26 eteran wrote: Making 8 lings that early in the game, instead of 2, is great for the P. That could have been 3 drones instead. And for every ~30 seconds that you can delay the hatch its annother 4 drones. Yes, but he made gateway and then few zealots, why don't you count money and time protoss spent on this? I think this may go into toss favour only if he controls his zealots perfectly and/or zerg reacts wrong, like making roach warren and ton of lings to kill 2 zealots (just like in one of OP's replay). | ||
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InvXXVII
Canada242 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
As a zerg player who opens 11overpool or 14gas14pool expand often, I feel like this style might be a bit weaker. If I drone scout an earlier-than-usual gateway(or, especially, a chronoboost on the first zealot), I make extra zerglings. Wouldn't the pressure be shut down quite easily with queen/lings? You'd be starting with an economic disadvantage and it would be harder to defend your expansion from pure-ling or roach-ling timing attacks. User was warned for this post | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote: I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs. did you read guide? It's nothing to do with 10 gateways. It's a 10gate 9pylon, 10 gateway. BTW OP, if you're building gate on 10, a 10 pylon is better than 9pylon. | ||
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iRk
Sweden83 Posts
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huh1231
United States2 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote: I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs. I'm not in love with this guide but I think it's definitely worth a few tries before it gets dismissed so quickly. Protoss in general are trying to find ways to pressure the Zerg early while still being able to transition into a mid game lead. As far as I know, no one has been able to find a consistent way of doing this against a standard Zergo opening. Our options right now are FFE to match Zerg and be vulnerable to all-in (ala Leenock v Naniwa) or push early and do severe damage. Everyone is trying to find that middle ground where we can push early without needing to do severe damage while we macro at home. This might be able to do it but i'm skeptical. I need to see exactly how much damage I need to do with my early game investments (chrono, probe cuts, 2 zealots, dead pylon, etc...) to make it worthwhile. Damage needs to be done, it's just a matter of how much and how consistently you can get that damage done. Obviously, needing to do less damage means that we can get to that damage more consistently. I think a lot of people fail to realize that this game is about how consistently you can achieve something rather than if it's possible at all. Now TangSC... it's pretty obvious that you didn't read this guide at all before replying. You have links to lessons and your own strategy website in your signature so I can't help but think you're not really here to contribute to the community as much as you are trying to promote your own work. I think your credibility in the community just went out the window with this one. | ||
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Aftershock912
United States15 Posts
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JMC4
United States261 Posts
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-Jackal-
38 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote: I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs. lol you serious Tang? I have watched/read some of your work and for the most part you do a good job... but in this case you have let yourself down. Read the post before commenting with that sort of generic garbage. | ||
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-Jackal-
38 Posts
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BlueBoxSC
United States582 Posts
On October 28 2011 00:18 EndOfLine wrote: As Zerg, it pains me to say that I like this thread...  lol Agreed. This is an extremely well-written guide, and I almost want to go out and try this build against AI now. | ||
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LanTAs
United States1091 Posts
It looks really vulnerable to a 10 pool (this is after watching the replay), and definitely looks like it will kill a 15 hatch easily. Still, i feel like going double stargate is really risky and really begs the zerg not to scout inside your base so that you can autowin, but other than that, i think this build will have a hard time against earlier pool timings. Other than that, the build looks quite solid :D | ||
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Elefes
Russian Federation164 Posts
Sorry, I just can't be silent :D Nice guide, although early zealot pressure into Stargate is a bit common in current PvZ metagame (hello, greedy eco builds!), so.. I kinda reminds me all these 'gaiz, gaiz, PvP Phoenix builds roll!!!' Well, yeah, they roll at the moment, but... edit: haha, 10-gate posts are epic! you guys don't understand, that's to counter the infamous 6 pool(s)! | ||
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houstil
France57 Posts
At that time my ZvP standard was Nestea's 12 pool into 19 hatch. And it took me some time to figure out the best way to react. It's really hard to not under-commit/over-commit to the 2 Zlots/cannon pressure. Full slow lings/queen + a few drones seem the way to go if the P try to set up the cannon contain but you really need a good micro to not loose any drones or your fat-ass-off-creep queen. A real problem with this opening is also to scout it in time to produce the 4-5 pairs of lings needed to calm down those angry zealots. Drone scout might be mandatory but it's really not standard in the current ZvP metagame where every little bit of economy matter to catch on a greedy nexus first. It's a definite hard counter to hatch first and it's sill can apply some strong pressure against a standard pool timing. I would consider it like a Protoss version of the Terran 2rax-pressure, but it might not be as cheese-proof (6-7-8 pool should be hard to deal with although Nyast stated that it's defendable). I can't say if this opening can become a ZvP standard but it's solid enough to be a good BoX surprise option and should do well on ladder because it's really uncommon. I hope to see more of this kind of games, leads to a more interesting play than the current no rush 8 version of ZvP. Gratz to Nyast for such a well-written guide, we will soon call you The Revolutionist : ). (this is just a joke, calm down you BW hardcore fan). | ||
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HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:04 Jackal888 wrote: lol you serious Tang? I have watched/read some of your work and for the most part you do a good job... but in this case you have let yourself down. Read the post before commenting with that sort of generic garbage. I don't feel I let myself down at all, several other people posted making the same mistake I did. | ||
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