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Introduction:
Hi Everybody. I'm Nyast, a mid-master's Protoss player, and today I want to share with you a build that I've been practicing and that has given me a fair number of wins in the past 2 months. I have a win/loss ratio of around 60% with it, and when I lose it's usually due to an execution problem or to my inability to scout and adapt to what the opponent is doing, not to an inherent flaw with the build.
Many players have probably done it or a variation of it in the past months, so I do not claim that it's 100% original, however I haven't met any player on ladder, on streams or in tournaments execute it, so it's certainly not mainstream or popular right now.
The goal:
Like any Protoss, you've probably played a decent number of forge-first fast expands builds. And like any Protoss, you've found that although you were pretty safe in the early game, you were unable to punish a Zerg from taking a fast third and then flooding you with mass units in the mid game. Zerg's macro quickly becomes unstoppable if he knows what he's doing. A quick stargate is one way to put some pressure back but even that can quickly be stopped by a Zerg that knows how to scout or drops a couple of spores..
Enter the 10 gate ! The goal of the 10-gate is to punish greedy Zergs and to enter the mid-game with a strong economic/macro advantage. You are going to sacrifice a little bit of your early economy to put some ultra fast pressure on the Zerg, expand as fast ( and often faster ) than he does, while being safe and teching quickly.
Most of the time, this build immediately outright kills any hatch-first build. Against a 14+ pool first, you can delay his hatchery by a minute or two compared to your nexus ( and if you feel like playing cheesy, you will even be able to set up a contain ). You will be relatively safe against any cheese ( fast pools )..
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gMraM.jpg)
Mid-game, 12 more probes, a B3 faster than his. How does it feel to be in a Zerg's shoes ?
Build order, the early game:
The build order is simple but the execution and the timings have to be perfect. You're going to need more than a dozen games before it "feels" right. There are tons of possible variations around this build, but I only use two of them, which I find particularly strong. Those two variations start the same and change based on whether you're going to scout a hatch or a pool first.
The common part:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon (at your natural), scout
10 Gate (chrono 2 times your nexus for probes afterwards)
14 Pylon (at your natural if he hatched first or you didn't scout him yet; at his natural in other cases)
15 Zealot (chrono boosted), send to his natural asap
Versus a hatch-first:
+ Show Spoiler +17 Forge
17 Zealot (chrono boosted, rallied to first zealot)
19 Pylon (at his natural)
20 Canon x2 (at his natural)
22 Nexus
22 Canon (at your natural), in defense
22 Cybernetics core, close full wall
Versus a pool-first:
+ Show Spoiler +18 Zealot (chrono boosted, rallied to first zealot)
20 Forge
22 Nexus
22 Canon (at your natural)
24 Pylon (this normally compensates for the loss of your 2nd pylon at his natural)
25 Cybernetics core, close full wall
26 Pylon
28 Canon (at your natural)
Keep building probes as long as you have money, but never prioritize them over zealots/pylons/forge production. Stop building probes around 19-20, accumulate minerals for canons and/or the nexus. Resume probes production ( chrono boosted ) after you've successfully set up a contain or closed the wall at your natural.
After the wall is finished, I usually get the 2 gas in my main immediately, research warp, chrono a sentry and drop a stargate or two. Then I quickly produce a voidray to help defending all-ins. If the all-in doesn't come, I'll continue producing voidrays and phoenix and harass his B3. More about this stage in the next sections.
Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Against a 14+ pool, you can also attempt a canon rush ( along with your 2 zealots ). This is usually unsuccessful if the Zerg has scouted your zealots with a drone or an overlord and over-produces zerglings. If he produces few zerglings ( <= 10 ), you can attempt a canon rush. I don't do it since it's a bit cheesy, and the goal of this build is to enter the mid-game with an economic advantage in a macro game, not to kill your opponent immediately ( unless he's doing a greedy hatch first ). However you should be aware that if you fail that canon rush, you will most likely fall behind.
Notes and timings:
Versus fast-pool/cheese:
+ Show Spoiler +The build is relatively safe versus a fast pool cheese. I've even successfully hold some 6-pools in close pos. Take half of your probes before (this is key) the zerglings arrive at your natural. Drop a second pylon at your natural. Chrono your zealots. Try to form a little choke with only enough room for 1 zealot in hold-position. As you micro your probes and zealots, chrono a second zealot and drop a forge. Make a canon asap, and when the canon is up, save your minerals and drop a nexus. Proceed with the rest of the build like it was a normal game, and don't worry: even if you lose 6-7 probes, you still have the advantage.
On some maps like Tal'D'arim, some Zergs attempt 6-pools in the hopes that the Protoss will go nexus or forge at 15. They bypass the canon and go harass the main. This build is really good in this scenario, as the map is huge, and you'll have a zealot out before his zerglings arrive. Zerg's reactions when they realize their 6-pool has no chance of passing is priceless.. most simply gg and quit, but one time a Zerg told me: "wtf, never seen such an early gate on that map.."
Handling the canon rush:
+ Show Spoiler +
When you attempt to punish a hatch-first ( this happens in ~40% of my games, as most maps in the pool are 2v2s, a lot of Zergs feel safe by going hatch first ! ), your second pylon should go down near his natural around 3'30. It doesn't matter if he scouts it, or has an overlord on top of it. Your forge should be completing soon, and your first zealot is almost here. Zergs are used to defending canon rushes by pulling out half their drones, but here with your zealot it doesn't work. When the first lings appear, micro your zealot around, do not engage if he has more than 4 zerglings ! Make him run in circles, he doesn't have speed yet. If his lings attack the pylon, attack the lings, then retreat when he engages.. rinse and repeat. Retreat between mineral patches in hold position. Snipe the queen if there are few lings and he sends his queen, it'll be off creep. Retreat hurt zealots away for a while, wait til shields recharge, and reengage. Buy some time for the canons to go up !
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/STMyu.jpg)
Greedy Zergs must be punished: you will have 2 zealots, 2 probes and 2+ canons going up, think of how many lings you need to defend that..
Zerg's responses:
Scenario 1: you succesfully set up a contain with canons
Don't get excited too quickly: there's a timing where a Zerg can all-in you, and you don't have your tech yet. I've lost a fair number of games due to feeling too confident at this stage, so get ready to feel the desperation of a Zerg ! However as you experience the build, you'll become better at holding those all-ins. The key here is to scout him regularly with your remaining probes/zealots and see what he's teching to. Try to see if he makes a second hatchery in-base, took some gas, and fast techs to lair. Check his units, do you see some roaches ? Does he have speedlings yet ? All those hints will be critical in preparing against his response..
- zerglings/bannelings (hints: quick gas, no lair, no roaches, 2nd hatch in base, tons of speedlings..):
+ Show Spoiler +He will attempt to bypass your canons, morph into bannelings in front of your entrance, and hit you before you can have too many sentries. The key here is to reinforce your wall with more gates, chrono sentries, chrono the warp and drop 5-6 canons.. don't be afraid to go overboard, you're on two bases, he cannot compete economically so if you survive you'll be in good shape !
- roaches (hints: few zerglings, roach warren):
+ Show Spoiler +The good news is that he'll have to deal with your canons at his natural first. As soon as you see roaches attacking your canons at his natural, drop 5-6 canons at your wall, chrono your warp/sentries, chrono your first voidray. It shouldn't be too hard to resist, and as soon as your voidray is done, he's extremely far behind.. just play safe from now on, harass with your air, take a third, tech to colossi.. and you should have no trouble in the mid/end game.
- nydus (hints: fast lair):
+ Show Spoiler +Spread pylons in your main, around the cliffs. Remember where his overlords come from, that's the most likely spot for a nydus. If he still hasn't busted your contain at his natural by 7', it's very likely to be a nydus. Check the mini-map very often. If he successfully spawns a nydus in your main, you can only hope that your voidray is not too late, as you won't have enough gate units to hold. As soon as you see the nydus, don't hesitate to take 8 probes and surround it !
- exotic stuff (hints: fast lair?):
+ Show Spoiler +Once somebody went fast mutas on 1 base. Another one made a nydus.. in another corner of the map, to bypass my contain and expand. So far none of those responses have worked against me, as I have a quick stargate or two, so I have map control and can easily harass.
- roaches/lings bust and double-expo:
+ Show Spoiler +While most of the Zergs tend to go all-in when they're behind, a few of them will still attempt to play a macro game, bust your canons, attempt to poke at your choke and immediately retreat. They'll double-expo and go into mass droning mode. Continue with the build as if it was a standard macro game, go air harass and take a third asap.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sNLj0.jpg)
The result of a failed all-in. The game is litterally in the bag: I have twice the number of probes, my tech is ready and I'm getting my B3 while he's barely taking his B2
Scenario 2: you delayed his expansion, forced him to produce a lot of zerglings, but did not contain him
+ Show Spoiler +
Most Zergs will attempt a macro game and take a fast third. At this point you should be chrono boosting probes like crazy, you will still hold the economic advantage until 9-10'. See the next section about the build transitions in the mid-game.
One thing I like to do in this scenario is drop a second gate ( sometimes before the cybcore, to complete the wall ), produce 4-6 zealots and make a small push on his likely third. This doesn't delay your air tech too much since it's mostly limited by your gas. The advantage of this small push is that you can either outright kill his third, either it forces him to produce a lot of lings, but this also allows you to scout what he's doing. If you see roaches, drop a couple more canons at your natural and retreat, do not lose the zealots, and chrono your voidray.
The mid-game:
We're now into the mid-game, and he's not all-inning you ( or he already did and failed ). Your first voidray is out, you have a couple canons in your natural, you are safe. You're still equal or in front of him economically, but if he took a fast third, he's soon going to take the lead ! The goal now is to keep that advantage.
If he did not all-in you at all, drop a second stargate. Chrono voidrays until you have 3-4 of them, then continue to produce phoenixes ( all chrono boosted ) with a rally point. Go harass his third with your voidrays: the goal here is to pressure him, force a ton of queens and spores. If you see a lot of queens and spores at his third when you arrive ( for example because he had an overseer and saw your stargates earlier ), harass the main. Lift and snipe the queens, delay him as much as possible, and don't forget to check his tech path !
Most of the time, a good Zerg will successfully defend your harass. You should then use the voidrays to prevent creep spread, hold the Xel'naga towers and snipe as many overlords as you can. Use the phoenixes to regularly scout his army composition and tech path.
There are many transitions possible out of this build in the mid-game, I'll quickly mention a couple of them:
Mass gates play:
+ Show Spoiler +
Drop a twilight while you're preparing your voidrays, add some more gates ( 6-8 ), research blink, upgrades at the forge. When you start to move for your harass, destroy a canon or a gate at your natural, warp in some sentries/zealots/stalkers, take your B3, put a pylon and some canons. Normally he'll be too busy with your harass to prevent your B3, but beware of the response as soon as he scouts your third, he will most likely go all-in, produce a ton of lings/roaches/hydras and attempt to kill it. Spawn as many gate units as possible, micro, force-fields..
If you scouted: mass lings and probable mutas:
+ Show Spoiler +
If you already have two stargates ( that's what I usually do with this build when the Zerg plays a macro game ), drop a third stargate. Chrono phoenixes. Produce many gates, tons of zealots, some canons to defend your minerals lines and take your third expansion when you can.
If you only had one stargate, go mass gates play with blink, add some templars/archons and.. try to survive..
Double-stargate double-robo:
+ Show Spoiler +
I usually do this transition when I see he's teching hydras with my phoenixes when I harass him. I stay on ~3 gates, then I drop 2 robos asap, a robo bay and transition colossi 2-by-2, chrono boosted. I add more gates and produce mass chargelots, and once I feel confident enough, I take my third ( usually around 13-14' ). Upgrades are very important, a second forge may help.
Maps:
This build is particularly good on maps with a choke/ramp at the natural.
It's not good on Xel'naga caverns and on Metalopolis: the natural is too open. I have roughly 50% win/loss ratio when I do the build on those maps. Zerg's all-ins are very hard to defend, as canons cannot cover all the space.
It is decent on Shattered Temple, although a bit more risky than other maps. Get ready to close off your wall before you drop your nexus at 22 !
On Antiga Shipyards, your second pylon should be at your natural in all cases, whether he hatch or pool firsts. That's because it's not possible to completely close off your wall without a second pylon, the range isn't high enough.
Summary:
The goal of this build is to put pressure on the Zerg 2-3 times before the mid-game.
1. Early 2 zealots pressure (with a canon rush if he hatch-firsts).
2. [optional] More zealots pressure, 4-6 zealots from double-gates, especially if your early zealot pressure didn't do much. Try to kill his third, or at least scout what he's doing.
3. Air harass from one or two stargates ( one if he all-ins, two if he plays a macro game ). Forces him to produce queens, spores, overlords.. sometimes you can even snipe his B3 or his main.
When you do this right, you'll be in the mid-game with an economic advantage and the same number of expansions ( or if you really outplayed him in the early game, you can have an advance in expo count.. ). You will have map control thanks to your air, you can easily scout him and react to what he's doing. Congrats !
Replays:
Vs Hatch first:
+ Show Spoiler +
Vs Pool first:
+ Show Spoiler +7 pool: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-237753.jpg) Another 7-pool with mass lings and nydus attempt, transition into hydras: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238548.jpg) 10 pool: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238549.jpg) 14 pool 15 gas: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238208.jpg) 11 pool 19 gas: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-235029.jpg) 13 pool into roaches (this is an example of containment vs pool 1st, the variation I described above..): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238551.jpg)
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I immediately opened this thread when I saw it because I've been doing the same style of build for awhile now, although I've been inconsistent/inactive so I've been deranked to high diamond. Will read the guide more later!
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I feel like 10gate doesn't do enough damage to justify the economy sacrifice, and like the 2gate follow-up it can put you significantly behind if the zerg scouts well. If you do a zealot pressure your tech is very late so I agree on going for stargate into blink because you can't get enough colossi out anyways. You don't really have the ability to take a fast third so it's best to try and do some serious damage with air + blink/sentry (like naniwa did at blizzcon). I do love how sick air+gateway can be, but it's a little too dependant on early/midgame damage imo.
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As Zerg, it pains me to say that I like this thread... 
lol
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Great read. Appears quite effective.
*commences yabot*
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How far behind are you if you fail to stop the fast hatch and lose the zealots probes and pylon?
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I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. As a zerg, it sounds like you're almost betting on someone playing hatch-first, which might be okay since so many maps are 2v2. I've played against this opening 6-8 times before, and I haven't lost a single time.
If you assume that the zerg goes 14/14 (safer build), 2 zealot pressure isn't really new, and it's easily dealt with if the zerg micros queen + ling + drone. From there you just transition into regular 2 base protoss with options to do whatever you want. You're almost certainly going to lose the two zealots, and start out behind. This gives zerg freedom to macro up even harder. Why not just open regular 13 gate and save yourself the 200 minerals + chronoboosts?
2 stargate is tough to deal with, but only if the zerg doesn't scout it (which means he deserves to lose, anyway). Like you said, most good zergs will defend it with relatively minimal loss. If you're chronoing 4 void rays + phoenixes, and you don't do some SIGNIFICANT damage to justify it, there is no way you can defend the "zerg all-in." I don't see how the 2-robo, 2-stargate transition can work out, since you'll have almost no ground support (besides maybe some zealots. I doubt you'll have charge because that is A LOT OF GAS). Regular hydra roach can probably devour this, unless you can somehow get 3 bases going without the zerg noticing it at all.
I think it's a creative build, but it really capitalizes on the zerg's mistakes and feels a bit all-inish to me. The eco-sacrifice makes it so that you HAVE to do enough damage to me, or I just roll you over in mid-game with basically any composition (ling/roach, roach/hydra, roach/infestor, ling/bling/infestor, muta transtiion...... the list goes on). I just don't think a player is ever in a good position if he MUST do damage to get even or gain advantage
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Nice guide I'll try it asap
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Seems to be pretty interesting I like the build it does sound a little odd I can see this punishing hatch first though not to sure on long rush distance maps how it will feel with the 2 zealot pressure but I guess if your cannon rushing at the same time it gets tricky.
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Thanks to Nyast I often use this build from bronze to diamond, and the 2 stargates/2 robotics transition is very effective when zerg's player do mass hydralisk or spore...! I got a good ratio in PvZ although this isn't a perfect build as people said.
The harder is to survive at the begining if the zerg's player goes all-in...
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On October 28 2011 00:36 jhk0219 wrote:
I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. As a zerg, it sounds like you're almost betting on someone playing hatch-first, which might be okay since so many maps are 2v2. I've played against this opening 6-8 times before, and I haven't lost a single time.
If you assume that the zerg goes 14/14 (safer build), 2 zealot pressure isn't really new, and it's easily dealt with if the zerg micros queen + ling + drone.
OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.
I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?
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Is this build viable vs 1base roach w/ proxy hatch?
Any experiences with that?
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FINALLY! I LOVE YOU! \o/
I cannot beat Zergs currently. My W/L ratio vs Z is about 10% right now. Thank you! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! <3333
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You are all in and autolose vs 12-13 pool I think, I always 13 pool and have met this twice = easy free wins. Won't delay hatch and keep losing units to slow lings with minimum micro.
You are going all in hoping to delay hatch with this build and if you don't - you lose.
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On October 28 2011 00:48 Lordcamel wrote:
OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.
I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?
Yeah, that's pretty much correct.
It's relativement safe from cheese, it punishes a hatch first even on Tal'D'arim when scouted in last position, and against a "standard" 14 pool+, you pay 200 ( 2 zealots ) to delay his hatchery up to 5'30-6' ( while yours is already in progress ).
In the event he mass produces lings and forces you to wall off before dropping a nexus, well.. he produced a lot of lings early game, so that should at least "pay" for the cost of the 2 zealots and slightly delayed eco.
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On October 28 2011 00:48 Lordcamel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 00:36 jhk0219 wrote:
I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. As a zerg, it sounds like you're almost betting on someone playing hatch-first, which might be okay since so many maps are 2v2. I've played against this opening 6-8 times before, and I haven't lost a single time.
If you assume that the zerg goes 14/14 (safer build), 2 zealot pressure isn't really new, and it's easily dealt with if the zerg micros queen + ling + drone.
OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding. I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?
Did you tl;dr my entire post? Please actually read before you try to criticize what I said.
I said this would be effective against a hatch-first build. I said that off the start. I was pointing out that I don't see the advantage of 10-gate when the zerg is doing 14/14.
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Had this done to me for my season 4 placement match.
Thanks for writing it up. I'm definitely going to be scouting my front a little bit harder to watch for that early pylon and aggression.
11/18 pool hatch is starting to look better and better then the 15/16 hatch/pool I've been doing.
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On October 28 2011 03:19 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 00:48 Lordcamel wrote:
OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.
I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ? Yeah, that's pretty much correct. It's relativement safe from cheese, it punishes a hatch first even on Tal'D'arim when scouted in last position, and against a "standard" 14 pool+, you pay 200 ( 2 zealots ) to delay his hatchery up to 5'30-6' ( while yours is already in progress ). In the event he mass produces lings and forces you to wall off before dropping a nexus, well.. he produced a lot of lings early game, so that should at least "pay" for the cost of the 2 zealots and slightly delayed eco.
He doesn't actually need to produce a lot of lings to defend it early game. The reason why zerg players send the initial queen to natural immediately after production of the second one is precisely because of this kind of early pressure. 2 stalker, 1zealot 1 stalker, 2 zealot can all be defended with queen + drone/lings. If the zerg is good with micro, he'll most likely lose maybe 1-2 lings + no drones and come out ahead.
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On October 28 2011 03:42 jhk0219 wrote:
He doesn't actually need to produce a lot of lings to defend it early game. The reason why zerg players send the initial queen to natural immediately after production of the second one is precisely because of this kind of early pressure. 2 stalker, 1zealot 1 stalker, 2 zealot can all be defended with queen + drone/lings. If the zerg is good with micro, he'll most likely lose maybe 1-2 lings + no drones and come out ahead.
Oh sure, I'm not disputing the fact that a Zerg can defend it. In fact, there's no way a Zerg cannot defend it. The whole point of the rush is to delay his hatchery and force him to produce zerglings instead of drones. Now imagine the situation: there's a pylon in his natural and 2 zealots are incoming.
He doesn't have speed yet.
How long can you delay the hatchery with zealots micro, until he has too many lings you can't handle anymore ? Don't forget he has to kill the pylon first, and he's busy with your zealots. If he targets the pylon, you snipe some zerglings. If he attacks your zealots, you pull back and delay your pylon being destroyed.
The goal here is to buy as much time as possible. I can frequently buy a minute or two, which added to the larvae going into zerglings, ensures that I have a slight economic advantage for a while.
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If the zerg 9 drone scouts and drops a warren, on a hatch first how to you make this build work?
I guess this relies on the Zerg not scouting or scouting and not reacting to the 10 gate. Seeing an early gateway with chrono should be a pretty big red flag right?
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i thought u meant 10 gateways =)
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What's the advantage of 9pylon/10gate over 10pylon/10gate?
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On October 28 2011 04:37 scorch- wrote:
What's the advantage of 9pylon/10gate over 10pylon/10gate?
That's what I don't get.
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Do you have any replays of you playing against someone doing an 11-13 pool with this build with no gas except the one vs Blinkyz? Love a game regardless of whether you win or lose it.
In that replay he did the worst possible thing:
- He had the drone in position and killed your pylon and the mineral in the bank
- He had 4 zerglings that can kill a zealot without losing a single zergling.
... he ran away and didn't try to put down his hatch which you couldn't have stopped.
It seems to me that you should never be able to significantly hinder it and just lose your first 2 zealots against an early pool, but do you have any replays where someone is actually reacting properly at all? And at that point, you would be pretty much dead in the water because of your uneconomic opening?
If you want to try some kind of practice game tomorrow give me a PM? I just can't see this as viable, and I'd love to test it out.
In all ways, I think that running around with a probe and just dropping a fake gateway in that position right before pylon dies is better if you can do it.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
On ne dit pas B3 en anglais, mais "third" en abrégé. Bien des lecteurs ont dû se demander d'où sortait cette expression.
( One does not abbreviate "third base" to "B3" but "third" in English. I bet a lot of readers here have been puzzled as to why you were calling it thus. )
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9 pilon 10 gate gets ur gate a tad bit fater, coz ur not wating for the pilon.
10 pilon 10 gate is tad bit more economical coz u get ur 10th probe minining more time.
but the dif is really small.
User was warned for this post
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On October 28 2011 00:36 jhk0219 wrote:
I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening.
A 13-gate doesn't allow you to fast expand at 22 ( if you meant the classical 13-gate followed by cybcore/gas and waiting for a zealot and 1-2 sentries before putting your nexus down ) while delaying Zerg's expo at the same time. It is punished by a Zerg that produces a lot of lings, you won't have enough sentries to defend it and you won't have a forge yet. It also doesn't punish a hatch first, and it's harder to defend a 6-pool with it.
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3 more replays, all versus earlier pools:
Another 7-pool with mass lings and nydus attempt, transition into hydras:
10 pool:
13 pool into roaches (this is an example of containment vs pool 1st, the variation I described in the OP..):
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I love the Zerguys theorycrafting about it. Of course you can think of a way to defend this build once you know what it is, how it works and what's its goal. Problem is: it all looks pretty good when you guys talk about your mad micro skillz, but I wanna see it done in-game.
OP states he's mid-master, so this is not your ordinary low-league-cheesy-play, guys. Really, come on... OP has made a beautiful guide with lots of variations, it's all very detailed and looks pretty solid.
Plus, you Zeguys seem to think he wants to end the game with his initial 2 Zealots (LOL!), when his stated goal is to have somewhat of an advantage.
Really, I think you Zerguys are overreacting to this. It's an awesome build, which I'm still perfecting (mid-diamond yet, I'm sorry), but it's been working wonders so far.
Thank you again, OP :DD
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On October 28 2011 04:59 aebriol wrote:
In that replay he did the worst possible thing:
- He had the drone in position and killed your pylon and the mineral in the bank
- He had 4 zerglings that can kill a zealot without losing a single zergling.
... he ran away and didn't try to put down his hatch which you couldn't have stopped.
It seems to me that you should never be able to significantly hinder it and just lose your first 2 zealots against an early pool, but do you have any replays where someone is actually reacting properly at all? And at that point, you would be pretty much dead in the water because of your uneconomic opening? I just watched that game and I was about to say EXACTLY that. I always open 11 pool 18 hatch ZvP, and there's no way I'm going to delay the expo and go 1 base roach all-in, just because you sent 2 zealots early on. I mean what? I can make as many lings as needed to defend, defend the expo easily, with good micro I can trade quite effectively. Meanwhile your core's extremely delayed, you have no very early expo nor any pressure potential.
Low Master zerg here.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Nazgul told me to do 10gate a lot in beta, but this seems far more refined than when I did it!
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This build definetly deserves more love. I picked it up just after it was posted and used it as my standard PvZ build for about 4 weeks now. It carried me from high diamond to a stable decent mid master in that timeframe, and improved my PvZ winrate from about 40% to 70%.
Ever since I felt my PvZ lacked 3 things: being able to put on early pressure; failure to scout for early allins/pressure in time to react; inability to punish hatch first since i'm terrible in cannon rushing. Now hatch first builds feel like freewins, sometimes I even let the Zerg take the hatch first if he attempts to. Against more standard builds I can apply often times enough pressure to delay his expo by a fair amount, hindering him to drone up too soon and slowing down 2 base allins. The only time I feel like i'm a little bit behind is against 11 pool 18 hatch. Maybe one should skip the 2nd zealot in that case to get the expo and cannon down faster, since pressure wont do too much. After the early game I have been transitioning into pretty much everything, from double stargate, 6-8 gate pushes, zealot immortal +1 push.
So thanks for that guide Nyast!
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If you are playing on a map with an easy accessable third base and open gateway first in your natural you would get wrecked before forge is up by any zerg who knows what he's doing since you can't wall off properly. If you put a pylon in zerg natural he will just build his expansion at the third location. (this applies to any pool first build)
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I have been doing this in almost all my PvZ independent of what map for about 2-3 weeks, and it always puts me ahead and provides ample room for a transition. Usually I have a huge econ lead, sometimes also a tempo lead, but generally you must sacrifice pieces of these to convert to a tech / strategic advantage. In any case I completely vouch for this purely coincidentally, for what it's worth.
On October 28 2011 03:16 aebriol wrote:
You are all in and autolose vs 12-13 pool I think, I always 13 pool and have met this twice = easy free wins. Won't delay hatch and keep losing units to slow lings with minimum micro.
You are going all in hoping to delay hatch with this build and if you don't - you lose.
Why...? None of those claims make sense. The best part of this build is letting you interact with the zerg asap. This includes microing against lings with zealot + probe (you need more than 6 a-move lings) and continuing to force more lings as your zealots rally in. You should never lose a unit until they engage out of desperation or you are getting a good trade = 3 or more lings / zealot. I'm not sure how 12-13 pool gets an edge compared to a higher econ 14 pool... your nat hatch doesn't kick in until far after the damage has been dealt, even if protoss just leaves. The object is to attack the zerg's most precious resource, larva allocation.
The part that might be counterintuitive is that you go 10gate into forge. How is that not super cheesy right? But the option to cannon offensively lets you severely punish zergs who try to skate on low zergling count. Alternatively it lets you expand safely even when the zerg overreacts. In either case, you're going to have more probes than they do at the point where both of you have a completed nat.
There might be a way to deflect this and drone hard with some kind of spinecrawler option after holding off zealot + cannon threat with micro, but it seems like the best way for zerg to proceed is stay safe with ling count, then do a roach pressure off one round while drone / take 3rd.
On November 25 2011 20:06 sjukungen1 wrote:
If you are playing on a map with an easy accessable third base and open gateway first in your natural you would get wrecked before forge is up by any zerg who knows what he's doing since you can't wall off properly. If you put a pylon in zerg natural he will just build his expansion at the third location. (this applies to any pool first build)
You must be mistaken about how fast a 10gate chrono zealot comes out. If you take your 3rd after hatch block, you get cannon'd there and then it's even worse because you have no queen to help defend.
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As a zerg I open with an 11overpool on common FFE maps to punish any type of greedy play. Now I have a feeling that a 10gate vs 11pool will give you an automatic economic setback for the protoss. Would you be willing to play a few games against me to test this out? (Poelie.285)
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It's weird to write a guide about something that gives you a 60% winrate. I would guess that if PvZ happens to be your strongest matchup you have at least that much already, and if it's your weakest, it won't bring it over 50% either.
Regardless, good writing 
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Glad to see that some people find it useful
The reason I "only" have a 60% winrate with it is, as I said, because it usually makes games that are pretty excentric. It's not easy to evaluate what the Zerg's reaction will be. You need to know asap if he's going to all-in you ( in which case you win if you survive ), or if he's going to play macro ( in which case you have delayed your tech a bit, you need to tech as fast as possible ). Failure to identify an all-in when you're going macro will outright lose you the game.
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On October 28 2011 00:46 chtiungdor wrote:
Thanks to Nyast I often use this build from bronze to diamond, and the 2 stargates/2 robotics transition is very effective when zerg's player do mass hydralisk or spore...! I got a good ratio in PvZ although this isn't a perfect build as people said.
The harder is to survive at the begining if the zerg's player goes all-in...
Look i don't have a problem with the OP's build, but I am skeptical of of replies like this with one comment which absolutely agree with and compliment the build. Not to mention the fact that this poster is from France while the OP is from Belgium, two francophone countries.
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Interesting, never faced this. I guess you can really annoy zerg if you harass with zealot and move him in between the minerals. But overall I think 14 or 15 pool shouldn't have any problems with it. You send first queen to help and make like 8 lings and you defended. I doubt you gonna delay hatch for few minutes.
Also in that pic zerg is on 48 drones in 14:25 min in game, if all you made to him is that few zealot harass in early game then this zerg is just awful.
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On October 28 2011 04:33 instantdry wrote:
i thought u meant 10 gateways =)
Same here. I thought he meant 10-gate in a "4-gate" way rather than a "9 pylon, 13 gateway" kinda way. X-D
That said, interesting build. I might give it a go but I'm not really a big fan of air play honestly.
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On November 25 2011 23:56 Alpina wrote:
Also in that pic zerg is on 48 drones in 14:25 min in game, if all you made to him is that few zealot harass in early game then this zerg is just awful.
If I remember well, in that game that was because I successfully snipped his third, so he couldn't produce drones on 3 bases ( especially as he also had to produce lings to kill the zealots ).
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On November 25 2011 23:56 Alpina wrote:
Interesting, never faced this. I guess you can really annoy zerg if you harass with zealot and move him in between the minerals. But overall I think 14 or 15 pool shouldn't have any problems with it. You send first queen to help and make like 8 lings and you defended. I doubt you gonna delay hatch for few minutes.
Making 8 lings that early in the game, instead of 2, is great for the P. That could have been 3 drones instead. And for every ~30 seconds that you can delay the hatch its annother 4 drones.
On November 26 2011 01:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
I might give it a go but I'm not really a big fan of air play honestly.
After the initial opening you can transition into pretty much anything you want. When I suspect immediate agression I throw down a total of 3 cannons and start to chrono out sentries.
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On November 26 2011 01:26 eteran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 23:56 Alpina wrote:
Interesting, never faced this. I guess you can really annoy zerg if you harass with zealot and move him in between the minerals. But overall I think 14 or 15 pool shouldn't have any problems with it. You send first queen to help and make like 8 lings and you defended. I doubt you gonna delay hatch for few minutes. Making 8 lings that early in the game, instead of 2, is great for the P. That could have been 3 drones instead. And for every ~30 seconds that you can delay the hatch its annother 4 drones.
Yes, but he made gateway and then few zealots, why don't you count money and time protoss spent on this? I think this may go into toss favour only if he controls his zealots perfectly and/or zerg reacts wrong, like making roach warren and ton of lings to kill 2 zealots (just like in one of OP's replay).
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What do you mean by 10 gate?
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EDIT: I found the name of the thread - and the introductory paragraph about "goals" to be misleading and assumed he meant some sort of 10-gate midgame push, which is clearly excessive. As for doing a 9pylon 10gate, I think it opens a lot of chances to punish greedy opponents early on - which I like! I still appreciate the effort Nyast put into the thread and have a few questions:
As a zerg player who opens 11overpool or 14gas14pool expand often, I feel like this style might be a bit weaker. If I drone scout an earlier-than-usual gateway(or, especially, a chronoboost on the first zealot), I make extra zerglings. Wouldn't the pressure be shut down quite easily with queen/lings? You'd be starting with an economic disadvantage and it would be harder to defend your expansion from pure-ling or roach-ling timing attacks.
User was warned for this post
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I feel that this build is more of just hoping that they go hatch first and be able to punish it, and if they don't hope that they don't scout the chronos on the gate and then just end up way behind after they initial aggression.
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On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs.
did you read guide?
It's nothing to do with 10 gateways.
It's a 10gate 9pylon, 10 gateway.
BTW OP, if you're building gate on 10, a 10 pylon is better than 9pylon.
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Sounds nice, will try this one out directly!
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On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs.
I'm not in love with this guide but I think it's definitely worth a few tries before it gets dismissed so quickly. Protoss in general are trying to find ways to pressure the Zerg early while still being able to transition into a mid game lead. As far as I know, no one has been able to find a consistent way of doing this against a standard Zergo opening. Our options right now are FFE to match Zerg and be vulnerable to all-in (ala Leenock v Naniwa) or push early and do severe damage. Everyone is trying to find that middle ground where we can push early without needing to do severe damage while we macro at home. This might be able to do it but i'm skeptical. I need to see exactly how much damage I need to do with my early game investments (chrono, probe cuts, 2 zealots, dead pylon, etc...) to make it worthwhile. Damage needs to be done, it's just a matter of how much and how consistently you can get that damage done. Obviously, needing to do less damage means that we can get to that damage more consistently. I think a lot of people fail to realize that this game is about how consistently you can achieve something rather than if it's possible at all.
Now TangSC... it's pretty obvious that you didn't read this guide at all before replying. You have links to lessons and your own strategy website in your signature so I can't help but think you're not really here to contribute to the community as much as you are trying to promote your own work. I think your credibility in the community just went out the window with this one.
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intesting concept. i dislike FFE as Toss bc the Z can sit back and expo freely and they can all in you if they see only one cannon. but alot of P's have success with it so good for them
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This looks very nice can't wait to try it out
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On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs.
lol you serious Tang? I have watched/read some of your work and for the most part you do a good job... but in this case you have let yourself down. Read the post before commenting with that sort of generic garbage.
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Btw, nice guide... I have been playing with 2 gate openings against zerg and they can be somewhat effective... I have struggled to hold off quick roach play and the inclusion of the early forge would give me a way to protect my natural expo against this type of counter attack pressure. Keep up the good work.
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On October 28 2011 00:18 EndOfLine wrote:As Zerg, it pains me to say that I like this thread... lol
Agreed. This is an extremely well-written guide, and I almost want to go out and try this build against AI now.
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At first, i thought that this would be a batshit crazy three base ten warp gate timing attack... but alas i was wrong ._.
It looks really vulnerable to a 10 pool (this is after watching the replay), and definitely looks like it will kill a 15 hatch easily. Still, i feel like going double stargate is really risky and really begs the zerg not to scout inside your base so that you can autowin, but other than that, i think this build will have a hard time against earlier pool timings. Other than that, the build looks quite solid :D
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Russian Federation164 Posts
PvX: enter the 9 pylon!
Sorry, I just can't be silent :D
Nice guide, although early zealot pressure into Stargate is a bit common in current PvZ metagame (hello, greedy eco builds!), so.. I kinda reminds me all these 'gaiz, gaiz, PvP Phoenix builds roll!!!' Well, yeah, they roll at the moment, but...
edit: haha, 10-gate posts are epic! you guys don't understand, that's to counter the infamous 6 pool(s)!
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I played some games against Nyast a few months ago and while his build might not have been as refined as it is now, I must say that it was already a real pain to deal with !
At that time my ZvP standard was Nestea's 12 pool into 19 hatch. And it took me some time to figure out the best way to react. It's really hard to not under-commit/over-commit to the 2 Zlots/cannon pressure. Full slow lings/queen + a few drones seem the way to go if the P try to set up the cannon contain but you really need a good micro to not loose any drones or your fat-ass-off-creep queen.
A real problem with this opening is also to scout it in time to produce the 4-5 pairs of lings needed to calm down those angry zealots. Drone scout might be mandatory but it's really not standard in the current ZvP metagame where every little bit of economy matter to catch on a greedy nexus first.
It's a definite hard counter to hatch first and it's sill can apply some strong pressure against a standard pool timing.
I would consider it like a Protoss version of the Terran 2rax-pressure, but it might not be as cheese-proof (6-7-8 pool should be hard to deal with although Nyast stated that it's defendable).
I can't say if this opening can become a ZvP standard but it's solid enough to be a good BoX surprise option and should do well on ladder because it's really uncommon.
I hope to see more of this kind of games, leads to a more interesting play than the current no rush 8 version of ZvP.
Gratz to Nyast for such a well-written guide, we will soon call you The Revolutionist : ).
(this is just a joke, calm down you BW hardcore fan).
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This build is completely and utterly evil. It's outstanding at any lower level. Kudos and thanks!
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On November 30 2011 13:04 Jackal888 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs. lol you serious Tang? I have watched/read some of your work and for the most part you do a good job... but in this case you have let yourself down. Read the post before commenting with that sort of generic garbage.
I don't feel I let myself down at all, several other people posted making the same mistake I did.
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I lost to this once because it surprised me when I did hatch first, but I haven't lost to it since. This just seems like a flavor of the month build that takes advantage of a hatch first zerg who doesn't scout. Any build that commits itself to outright killing a hatch first player would have the same effect.
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On December 01 2011 05:13 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 13:04 Jackal888 wrote:On November 26 2011 05:16 TangSC wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to write this thread and contribute! I think you make a lot of great points and this style could surely help a lot of players structure their early/mid game against zerg. I do believe, though, that there are better ways of pressuring in the mid game than 10 gateways. I would argue a more standard 6-7gate with +1 is a smaller investment and allows for more effective transitions and economic follow throughs. lol you serious Tang? I have watched/read some of your work and for the most part you do a good job... but in this case you have let yourself down. Read the post before commenting with that sort of generic garbage. I don't feel I let myself down at all, several other people posted making the same mistake I did.
Yeah fair enough... but i just think they for someone who is actively teaching others, you should read forum topics before responding. People will listen to what you say more-so, and you need to have authority in your suggestions. I like a lot of the stuff you do... so don't want to be too critical. Keep up to good work and see you on the NA server
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Great post, and I really like the idea and have been doing 10 gates for a while vs Z! I think it's interesting that you've come up with something pretty nice, but you'll find as you get higher in the ladder that people will just run from your early zealots until lings and drones can beat them down. The problem with this style is, ignoring hatch first because good Zergs rarely if ever do that vs Protoss:
1. Zerg doesn't have to engage ever, you likely will not kill a single drone and just chase bugs or do valueless damage on the hatchery
2. Your base isn't guaranteed to be established after your push
3. You rely on doing damage to get ahead or stay even
My question is, are you better off in all situations compared to a player who FFEs and does zealot pressure after his base is up? You do zealots then expand with forge, why not expand with forge then do zealots? The latter has more safety and better economy, the former is just risky though it can make the later game a lot easier for you.
EDIT: I'd also argue very strongly that FFE is better than this vs a hatch first if your opponent did go that route
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On October 28 2011 04:29 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 03:42 jhk0219 wrote:
He doesn't actually need to produce a lot of lings to defend it early game. The reason why zerg players send the initial queen to natural immediately after production of the second one is precisely because of this kind of early pressure. 2 stalker, 1zealot 1 stalker, 2 zealot can all be defended with queen + drone/lings. If the zerg is good with micro, he'll most likely lose maybe 1-2 lings + no drones and come out ahead. Oh sure, I'm not disputing the fact that a Zerg can defend it. In fact, there's no way a Zerg cannot defend it. The whole point of the rush is to delay his hatchery and force him to produce zerglings instead of drones. Now imagine the situation: there's a pylon in his natural and 2 zealots are incoming. He doesn't have speed yet. How long can you delay the hatchery with zealots micro, until he has too many lings you can't handle anymore ? Don't forget he has to kill the pylon first, and he's busy with your zealots. If he targets the pylon, you snipe some zerglings. If he attacks your zealots, you pull back and delay your pylon being destroyed. The goal here is to buy as much time as possible. I can frequently buy a minute or two, which added to the larvae going into zerglings, ensures that I have a slight economic advantage for a while.
Why aren't they placing the hatches at the third?
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Great read trying out build now thanks for the build.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238421.jpg)
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