EPTI guess this relies on the Zerg not scouting or scouting and not reacting to the 10 gate. Seeing an early gateway with chrono should be a pretty big red flag right?
[G] PvZ: enter the 10-gate ! - Page 2
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TwoMagTrav
United States195 Posts
I guess this relies on the Zerg not scouting or scouting and not reacting to the 10 gate. Seeing an early gateway with chrono should be a pretty big red flag right? | ||
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instantdry
Canada308 Posts
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scorch-
United States816 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:37 scorch- wrote: What's the advantage of 9pylon/10gate over 10pylon/10gate? That's what I don't get. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
In that replay he did the worst possible thing: - He had the drone in position and killed your pylon and the mineral in the bank - He had 4 zerglings that can kill a zealot without losing a single zergling. ... he ran away and didn't try to put down his hatch which you couldn't have stopped. It seems to me that you should never be able to significantly hinder it and just lose your first 2 zealots against an early pool, but do you have any replays where someone is actually reacting properly at all? And at that point, you would be pretty much dead in the water because of your uneconomic opening? If you want to try some kind of practice game tomorrow give me a PM? I just can't see this as viable, and I'd love to test it out. In all ways, I think that running around with a probe and just dropping a fake gateway in that position right before pylon dies is better if you can do it. | ||
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Kyrillion
Russian Federation748 Posts
( One does not abbreviate "third base" to "B3" but "third" in English. I bet a lot of readers here have been puzzled as to why you were calling it thus. ) | ||
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ximae
181 Posts
10 pilon 10 gate is tad bit more economical coz u get ur 10th probe minining more time. but the dif is really small. User was warned for this post | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On October 28 2011 00:36 jhk0219 wrote: I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. A 13-gate doesn't allow you to fast expand at 22 ( if you meant the classical 13-gate followed by cybcore/gas and waiting for a zealot and 1-2 sentries before putting your nexus down ) while delaying Zerg's expo at the same time. It is punished by a Zerg that produces a lot of lings, you won't have enough sentries to defend it and you won't have a forge yet. It also doesn't punish a hatch first, and it's harder to defend a 6-pool with it. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Another 7-pool with mass lings and nydus attempt, transition into hydras: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238548.jpg) 10 pool: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238549.jpg) 13 pool into roaches (this is an example of containment vs pool 1st, the variation I described in the OP..): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-238551.jpg) | ||
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Avan
Brazil121 Posts
OP states he's mid-master, so this is not your ordinary low-league-cheesy-play, guys. Really, come on... OP has made a beautiful guide with lots of variations, it's all very detailed and looks pretty solid. Plus, you Zeguys seem to think he wants to end the game with his initial 2 Zealots (LOL!), when his stated goal is to have somewhat of an advantage. Really, I think you Zerguys are overreacting to this. It's an awesome build, which I'm still perfecting (mid-diamond yet, I'm sorry), but it's been working wonders so far. Thank you again, OP :DD | ||
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Qxz
Canada189 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:59 aebriol wrote: I just watched that game and I was about to say EXACTLY that. I always open 11 pool 18 hatch ZvP, and there's no way I'm going to delay the expo and go 1 base roach all-in, just because you sent 2 zealots early on. I mean what? I can make as many lings as needed to defend, defend the expo easily, with good micro I can trade quite effectively. Meanwhile your core's extremely delayed, you have no very early expo nor any pressure potential.In that replay he did the worst possible thing: - He had the drone in position and killed your pylon and the mineral in the bank - He had 4 zerglings that can kill a zealot without losing a single zergling. ... he ran away and didn't try to put down his hatch which you couldn't have stopped. It seems to me that you should never be able to significantly hinder it and just lose your first 2 zealots against an early pool, but do you have any replays where someone is actually reacting properly at all? And at that point, you would be pretty much dead in the water because of your uneconomic opening? Low Master zerg here. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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eteran
Germany83 Posts
Ever since I felt my PvZ lacked 3 things: being able to put on early pressure; failure to scout for early allins/pressure in time to react; inability to punish hatch first since i'm terrible in cannon rushing. Now hatch first builds feel like freewins, sometimes I even let the Zerg take the hatch first if he attempts to. Against more standard builds I can apply often times enough pressure to delay his expo by a fair amount, hindering him to drone up too soon and slowing down 2 base allins. The only time I feel like i'm a little bit behind is against 11 pool 18 hatch. Maybe one should skip the 2nd zealot in that case to get the expo and cannon down faster, since pressure wont do too much. After the early game I have been transitioning into pretty much everything, from double stargate, 6-8 gate pushes, zealot immortal +1 push. So thanks for that guide Nyast! | ||
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sjukungen1
Burkina Faso59 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On October 28 2011 03:16 aebriol wrote: You are all in and autolose vs 12-13 pool I think, I always 13 pool and have met this twice = easy free wins. Won't delay hatch and keep losing units to slow lings with minimum micro. You are going all in hoping to delay hatch with this build and if you don't - you lose. Why...? None of those claims make sense. The best part of this build is letting you interact with the zerg asap. This includes microing against lings with zealot + probe (you need more than 6 a-move lings) and continuing to force more lings as your zealots rally in. You should never lose a unit until they engage out of desperation or you are getting a good trade = 3 or more lings / zealot. I'm not sure how 12-13 pool gets an edge compared to a higher econ 14 pool... your nat hatch doesn't kick in until far after the damage has been dealt, even if protoss just leaves. The object is to attack the zerg's most precious resource, larva allocation. The part that might be counterintuitive is that you go 10gate into forge. How is that not super cheesy right? But the option to cannon offensively lets you severely punish zergs who try to skate on low zergling count. Alternatively it lets you expand safely even when the zerg overreacts. In either case, you're going to have more probes than they do at the point where both of you have a completed nat. There might be a way to deflect this and drone hard with some kind of spinecrawler option after holding off zealot + cannon threat with micro, but it seems like the best way for zerg to proceed is stay safe with ling count, then do a roach pressure off one round while drone / take 3rd. On November 25 2011 20:06 sjukungen1 wrote: If you are playing on a map with an easy accessable third base and open gateway first in your natural you would get wrecked before forge is up by any zerg who knows what he's doing since you can't wall off properly. If you put a pylon in zerg natural he will just build his expansion at the third location. (this applies to any pool first build) You must be mistaken about how fast a 10gate chrono zealot comes out. If you take your 3rd after hatch block, you get cannon'd there and then it's even worse because you have no queen to help defend. | ||
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Poelie
Netherlands53 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Regardless, good writing  | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
The reason I "only" have a 60% winrate with it is, as I said, because it usually makes games that are pretty excentric. It's not easy to evaluate what the Zerg's reaction will be. You need to know asap if he's going to all-in you ( in which case you win if you survive ), or if he's going to play macro ( in which case you have delayed your tech a bit, you need to tech as fast as possible ). Failure to identify an all-in when you're going macro will outright lose you the game. | ||
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Imperium11
United States279 Posts
On October 28 2011 00:46 chtiungdor wrote: Thanks to Nyast I often use this build from bronze to diamond, and the 2 stargates/2 robotics transition is very effective when zerg's player do mass hydralisk or spore...! I got a good ratio in PvZ although this isn't a perfect build as people said. The harder is to survive at the begining if the zerg's player goes all-in... Look i don't have a problem with the OP's build, but I am skeptical of of replies like this with one comment which absolutely agree with and compliment the build. Not to mention the fact that this poster is from France while the OP is from Belgium, two francophone countries. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
Also in that pic zerg is on 48 drones in 14:25 min in game, if all you made to him is that few zealot harass in early game then this zerg is just awful. | ||
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