EPTOn October 12 2011 15:10 Anihc wrote:
32 banelings = 8 roaches.
I'd take 32 banelings anyday.
32 banelings = 8 roaches.
I'd take 32 banelings anyday.
Except they cost 4 times the gas and 2.66 times the minerals?
[PvZ] Archon Toilet Counter. - Page 2
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
Except they cost 4 times the gas and 2.66 times the minerals? | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On October 12 2011 15:10 Anihc wrote: 32 banelings = 8 roaches. I'd take 32 banelings anyday. Why does your math seem so wrong to me....... is it because its 3am and im half asleep? despite the fact that i should be sleeping.... i got 1600/800 for 32 banes...... im 8 roaches cost: 600/200 | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
On October 12 2011 14:46 Anihc wrote: You know what a better counter is to vortex? Spread out your army and don't throw everything into it. And have the protoss player easily clean up one half of your army while the rest is vortexed, great idea buddy. Seriously, think a little before posting? | ||
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Magus.423
France33 Posts
And if you can't use them in a vortex, you can use them in a drop. So it's not useless. | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
On October 12 2011 16:13 AGIANTSMURF wrote: Why does your math seem so wrong to me....... is it because its 3am and im half asleep? despite the fact that i should be sleeping.... i got 1600/800 for 32 banes...... im 8 roaches cost: 600/200 He's talking about supply, which is the most important resource in the lategame, 8 roaches is 16 supply, 32 banelings is 16 supply. Roaches are dead supply vs lategame protoss anyway. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2011 15:21 ETisME wrote: that is a completely flawed argument. You would be fighting with less supply than he has and if he landed it on a choke point, you can't engage there until the whole vortex is finished. So what's better, fighting with less supply or fighting with no supply? Especially if you keep some brood lords and infestors out of the vortex, those units can still do damage to the protoss army regardless. It's not always easy for the protoss to maneuver around his own vortex either. | ||
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ETisME
12391 Posts
On October 12 2011 16:29 Anihc wrote: So what's better, fighting with less supply or fighting with no supply? Especially if you keep some brood lords and infestors out of the vortex, those units can still do damage to the protoss army regardless. It's not always easy for the protoss to maneuver around his own vortex either. you think it makes a difference? without roaches, what is going to protect the broodlords and infestors? it's not like blink stalkers cannot "spread out" to kill off the infestors and broodlords, especially when broodlords are spread out.... | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2011 16:20 Snusdosa wrote: And have the protoss player easily clean up one half of your army while the rest is vortexed, great idea buddy. Seriously, think a little before posting? Not only have I thought plenty about it, I've also had personal experience in hundreds of games at a very high level of play with motherships and vortexes. What about you? Of course fighting with half your army is a disadvantage; fighting with none of your army is even worse, which will be what happens if you throw everything into the vortex. Although its very dependent on both sides' army composition and the terrain where you're fighting, a lot of times it's hard for the protoss to maneuver around his own vortex, and units outside the vortex will still survive. Also, even in small numbers against a much bigger protoss force, a handful of infestors + broodlords can still do damage. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2011 16:24 Snusdosa wrote: He's talking about supply, which is the most important resource in the lategame, 8 roaches is 16 supply, 32 banelings is 16 supply. Roaches are dead supply vs lategame protoss anyway. Correct, he said late game so I assumed cost was irrelevant (or at least secondary). I don't even considered a maxed 200/200 roach army to be late game, that can happen by 14-15 minutes. EDIT: I guess I'll comment on the OP's idea (and I'm editing this to avoid triple posting :p): I actually like your idea with banelings, they are great late game units due to their supply efficiency and I don't know why no zergs ever do it. Surprisingly, I have never ever had anyone throw banelings into my vortex before, but I can't imagine it would end up poorly for the zerg. Ultralisks on the other hand I have seen, and are actually really good for the zerg in a vortex (because they're big and quickly spread units out, do splash damage of their own, and have a lot of HP so they don't die in 1 shot). So while your examples and "tests" are a bit unrealistic, banelings + ultras definitely are better against vortex than other standard more standard zerg compositions. I still however still believe that the best "counter" is to just spread out your army and not let everything get vortexed. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On October 12 2011 14:46 Anihc wrote: You know what a better counter is to vortex? Spread out your army and don't throw everything into it. I agree, if you go for a good arc instead of having one big ball with the radius of the vortex spell, you can negate a lot of the damage. Banelings are a nice idea, but... what if he doesn't vortex but uses the mothership like kiwikaki for the recall? You have 32 banelings that are effectively worthless (or "situational" at best) against his archons/colossi/sentries/whatever.... and banelings are not free. Or even: He vortexes but _doesn't_ move in his army but instead just fights half your army? Sure, if he vortexes, moves in his whole army and you do have them, you win, but hoping on the opponent making big mistakes leads to poor play. | ||
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Gelenn
United States87 Posts
On October 12 2011 16:38 Anihc wrote: Not only have I thought plenty about it, I've also had personal experience in hundreds of games at a very high level of play with motherships and vortexes. What about you? Of course fighting with half your army is a disadvantage; fighting with none of your army is even worse, which will be what happens if you throw everything into the vortex. Although its very dependent on both sides' army composition and the terrain where you're fighting, a lot of times it's hard for the protoss to maneuver around his own vortex, and units outside the vortex will still survive. Also, even in small numbers against a much bigger protoss force, a handful of infestors + broodlords can still do damage. While the "spread your army" advice is all well and good, it isn't all that practical. It basically translates to "never attack the protoss army anywhere that involves your units moving through a choke within casting range of the mothership." Considering how much more mobile a lategame protoss deathball (with a mothership/recall) is than a broodlord infestor deathball, this is extremely challenging. I would rather try to figure out a tactic that doesn't rely on my opponent screwing up and stupidly engaging my spread out army when he can just recall in my main and vortex everything when I run back to defend. I dislike strategies that rely on my opponent's mistakes. | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
Not only have I thought plenty about it, I've also had personal experience in hundreds of games at a very high level of play with motherships and vortexes. What about you? Of course fighting with half your army is a disadvantage; fighting with none of your army is even worse, which will be what happens if you throw everything into the vortex. Although its very dependent on both sides' army composition and the terrain where you're fighting, a lot of times it's hard for the protoss to maneuver around his own vortex, and units outside the vortex will still survive. Also, even in small numbers against a much bigger protoss force, a handful of infestors + broodlords can still do damage. Sure, i just think your first post had a poor choice of words. There really is no counter to a vortex, only different kinds of reactions to one going down and splitting up is one of them, it kinda explains itself that fighting with half your army can never be beneficial so saying that is how you "counter" a vortex isn't really right. A counter to something is a strategy that causes the engagement or result of an event to end up favoring you, in ZvP i think banelings is the only thing i've seen that might counter a vortex. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:08 Gelenn wrote: While the "spread your army" advice is all well and good, it isn't all that practical. It basically translates to "never attack the protoss army anywhere that involves your units moving through a choke within casting range of the mothership." Considering how much more mobile a lategame protoss deathball (with a mothership/recall) is than a broodlord infestor deathball, this is extremely challenging. I would rather try to figure out a tactic that doesn't rely on my opponent screwing up and stupidly engaging my spread out army when he can just recall in my main and vortex everything when I run back to defend. I dislike strategies that rely on my opponent's mistakes. I never give advice that is not practical. Do I literally have to spell out the fact that I don't theorycraft my posts like the majority of people here? You greatly overestimate both the mobility of a mothership and the radius of the vortex. It's pretty hard to be vortexed by surprise (giving you plenty of time to spread out your army, and when the vortex is actually cast, you still have time to not move the rest of your army into it), and if you let a mothership mass recall into your main then it's your fault for having poor map awareness (I know that it's been done to the best of players, but still. it's not an easy feat and still preventable by the zerg). | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
If it is at a choke that should favor the zerg considering he got BROOD LORDS, the vortex is more likely to keep the stalkers from getting to the broods then. Broods don't have to go into the vortex to combat the stalkers because of the range, the stalkers do however have to go past that choke to combat the broods, and if they blink towards them your own units can now attack the stalkers. Basicly like this: Broods --- choke with vortex --- protoss army Broods shoot over the choke easily with their superior range, while the protoss army can't shoot back without moving into the vortex or blinking over, if they blink over it will be: Broods - Stalkers -- Choke with vortex --- rest of protoss army In this scenario it is easy to see that the stalkers can be combated with your own groundforce. Not to forget you can deal very efficently with the stalker blink with fungals. And just to repeat, if it isn't a choke, you with only moderate amount of effort can spread out enough to have only a small portion of your army vortexed. Take a look at all those games with brood + infestor that get vortexed, and imagine the outcome if those broods were just slightly better spread easily reducing the vortexed brood amount from 50-80% to 10-20%. A lot of the time it turns out that would give zerg a clear win. EDIT: also to add, as anihc said, if half your army won't win the battle, then of course no army won't win it. The most painful thing I personally watch in pro play is when zergs move their entire army into a vortex, it is 99% of the time worse than just letting whatever didn't get vortexed fight. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:26 NTTemplar wrote: If you got infestor brood, then spreading out the broods pretty much wins it. A vortex doesn't have a really big AoE, little spread is needed before an engagement to make that vortex take only a small portion of your army. If it is at a choke that should favor the zerg considering he got BROOD LORDS, the vortex is more likely to keep the stalkers from getting to the broods then. Broods don't have to go into the vortex to combat the stalkers because of the range, the stalkers do however have to go past that choke to combat the broods, and if they blink towards them your own units can now attack the stalkers. Basicly like this: Broods --- choke with vortex --- protoss army Broods shoot over the choke easily with their superior range, while the protoss army can't shoot back without moving into the vortex or blinking over, if they blink over it will be: Broods - Stalkers -- Choke with vortex --- rest of protoss army In this scenario it is easy to see that the stalkers can be combated with your own groundforce. Not to forget you can deal very efficently with the stalker blink with fungals. And just to repeat, if it isn't a choke, you with only moderate amount of effort can spread out enough to have only a small portion of your army vortexed. Take a look at all those games with brood + infestor that get vortexed, and imagine the outcome if those broods were just slightly better spread easily reducing the vortexed brood amount from 50-80% to 10-20%. A lot of the time it turns out that would give zerg a clear win. EDIT: also to add, as anihc said, if half your army won't win the battle, then of course no army won't win it. The most painful thing I personally watch in pro play is when zergs move their entire army into a vortex, it is 99% of the time worse than just letting whatever didn't get vortexed fight. Thank you for clarifying me with that example. Such a situation is exactly what I'm talking about. | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:26 NTTemplar wrote:+ Show Spoiler + If you got infestor brood, then spreading out the broods pretty much wins it. A vortex doesn't have a really big AoE, little spread is needed before an engagement to make that vortex take only a small portion of your army. If it is at a choke that should favor the zerg considering he got BROOD LORDS, the vortex is more likely to keep the stalkers from getting to the broods then. Broods don't have to go into the vortex to combat the stalkers because of the range, the stalkers do however have to go past that choke to combat the broods, and if they blink towards them your own units can now attack the stalkers. Basicly like this: Broods --- choke with vortex --- protoss army Broods shoot over the choke easily with their superior range, while the protoss army can't shoot back without moving into the vortex or blinking over, if they blink over it will be: Broods - Stalkers -- Choke with vortex --- rest of protoss army In this scenario it is easy to see that the stalkers can be combated with your own groundforce. Not to forget you can deal very efficently with the stalker blink with fungals. And just to repeat, if it isn't a choke, you with only moderate amount of effort can spread out enough to have only a small portion of your army vortexed. Take a look at all those games with brood + infestor that get vortexed, and imagine the outcome if those broods were just slightly better spread easily reducing the vortexed brood amount from 50-80% to 10-20%. A lot of the time it turns out that would give zerg a clear win. EDIT: also to add, as anihc said, if half your army won't win the battle, then of course no army won't win it. The most painful thing I personally watch in pro play is when zergs move their entire army into a vortex, it is 99% of the time worse than just letting whatever didn't get vortexed fight Brood Lord are the slowest moving units in the game except slow Overlords, you dont just "spread out" a bunch of Brood Lords, spreading also makes you very vulnerable to blink stalkers. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:33 Snusdosa wrote: Brood Lord are the slowest moving units in the game except slow Overlords, you dont just "spread out" a bunch of Brood Lords, spreading also makes you very vulnerable to blink stalkers. You know what's just as slow as a brood lord? A mothership. Like I said before, it's really hard to be "surprised" (as in before you have time to react) by a mothership/vortex. You have plenty of time. Also I disagree with spreading brood lords being vulnerable to blink stalkers, I find the opposite to be true since if you clump all your BLs together it basically just takes 1 blink and your stalkers can be in range to kill all the brood lords. If you spread them out, you can get in position to kill a few but then you're stuck and can't kill any more because of fungal/broodlings getting in the way. And when I say spread out I don't mean spread out across the map, you just need to spread them out a little so that they can't all get sucked into 1 vortex. Vortex radius is honestly not that big, and I'm beginning to wonder if you've actually even seen one before. | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:33 Snusdosa wrote: Brood Lord are the slowest moving units in the game except slow Overlords, you dont just "spread out" a bunch of Brood Lords, spreading also makes you very vulnerable to blink stalkers. You can easily keep brood lords prematurely spread without much effort, and it does rarely make you any meaningful amount more vulnerable to blink stalkers, in many scenarios it makes them less vulnerable due to requiring the stalkers to move more, in simpler words, 1 blink don't put the stalkers in range to focus fire all brood lords. If you spread broods so they are in a line in relation to your opponent then that is almost exclusively better than clumped. To note, spreading in a row is worse though than clumping most of the time, but I guess I'll state that despite its obviouseness (That is now a word if it wasn't before). | ||
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Gelenn
United States87 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:18 Anihc wrote: I never give advice that is not practical. Do I literally have to spell out the fact that I don't theorycraft my posts like the majority of people here? You greatly overestimate both the mobility of a mothership and the radius of the vortex. It's pretty hard to be vortexed by surprise (giving you plenty of time to spread out your army, and when the vortex is actually cast, you still have time to not move the rest of your army into it), and if you let a mothership mass recall into your main then it's your fault for having poor map awareness (I know that it's been done to the best of players, but still. it's not an easy feat and still preventable by the zerg). I'm not sure why you took on such an aggressive tone with this post. It really is not necessary. I appreciate reading advice from protoss players, since my ZvP is rubbish. Like I said, "spread your army" is great advice. Let me rephrase my point: spreading is great, but is is very difficult to keep an army on the move spread out. I would think any protoss trying to avoid fungals would appreciate the difficulty, at least. On a different note, let's say I see a mothership making its way toward my main, and I do have time to react. What in your opinion is the proper response? If I pull everything to the main doesn't he just attack my exposed front now? To put it another way, vortex and recall are amazing spells for controlling the battlefield and forcing favorable engagements. What are some techniques I can use to force favorable engagements of my own? | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
You know what's just as slow as a brood lord? A mothership. Like I said before, it's really hard to be "surprised" (as in before you have time to react) by a mothership/vortex. You have plenty of time. Also I disagree with spreading brood lords being vulnerable to blink stalkers, I find the opposite to be true since if you clump all your BLs together it basically just takes 1 blink and your stalkers can be in range to kill all the brood lords. If you spread them out, you can get in position to kill a few but then you're stuck and can't kill any more because of fungal/broodlings getting in the way. And when I say spread out I don't mean spread out across the map, you just need to spread them out a little so that they can't all get sucked into 1 vortex. Vortex radius is honestly not that big, and I'm beginning to wonder if you've actually even seen one before. The Vortex range is 9 with a radius of 2.5, you wont get surprised by one. But its not dodged like nothing. Of course i've seen them before... and players that certainly have seen them before are professional zerg players. You think every single one of them reacts poorly to vortexes? No im pretty sure if spreading was the definite answer we'd seen at least one example of a good spread vs vortexes in professional games. As of now, no good answer to vortexes have been found, archon toilet was nerfed because it was deemed too strong vs zerg as zerg dont have an efficient answer to it and all their units are biological but despite the nerf it still works. | ||
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