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Now people are talking about walling in a vortex? Jesus fuck, why didn't I think of- WAIT A MINUTE I REMEMBER, BECAUSE THAT WOULD NEVER EVER BE FEASIBLE. Not even in 4v4s.
On October 13 2011 13:45 Keyz1 wrote:
As the OP, I appreciate all the great feedback. I've been messing around with it more and I'll be updating the original post real soon since I didn't cover as much as I could yesterday. *I'll add another video link to contribute to more actual demos.
1 - Some of the tests that I did show that in a real game scenario, a Protoss player who sends in a couple of Archons can easily close in on your broodlords with the rest of their army once the vortex is over, so a high Ultralisk count is actually essential. This prevents stalkers and Collossus from closing in. They'll also give your broodlords enough time to retreat back to Overseers, and Infestors as tanking units if you need time to regroup rather than attack right away.
2 - You can also disrupt any AoE from the Archons if you have a high enough baneling count. 40 Banelings and 8 Ultralisks prevented 7 Archons from giving my Broodlords any damage whatsoever.
3 - The perfect unit composition that's vortex proof seems to be something like: 12 Broodlords, 8 Ultralisks, 10 Infestors, 35 Banelings. This is assuming the Protoss player does not send in more than 7 Archons, which usually they don't, but even then your still pretty safe.
Ultras are pretty worthless, you wanna aim for ~8 banelings per archon, and preferably nothing else in the vortex, as it'll bump into the banes, and be in a place an archon could be receiving splash.
As for the collosus stalker force, you're kinda expected to have a roach hydra force.
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On October 13 2011 13:45 Keyz1 wrote:
As the OP, I appreciate all the great feedback. I've been messing around with it more and I'll be updating the original post real soon since I didn't cover as much as I could yesterday. *I'll add another video link to contribute to more actual demos.
1 - Some of the tests that I did show that in a real game scenario, a Protoss player who sends in a couple of Archons can easily close in on your broodlords with the rest of their army once the vortex is over, so a high Ultralisk count is actually essential. This prevents stalkers and Collossus from closing in. They'll also give your broodlords enough time to retreat back to Overseers, and Infestors as tanking units if you need time to regroup rather than attack right away.
2 - You can also disrupt any AoE from the Archons if you have a high enough baneling count. 40 Banelings and 8 Ultralisks prevented 7 Archons from giving my Broodlords any damage whatsoever.
3 - The perfect unit composition that's vortex proof seems to be something like: 12 Broodlords, 8 Ultralisks, 10 Infestors, 35 Banelings. This is assuming the Protoss player does not send in more than 7 Archons, which usually they don't, but even then your still pretty safe.
You should also make a Video of 2 Seperate Groups of the Zerg army Split up evenly
Say try 6 broods in each control Group 20 roaches few infestors/fewlings/1-2 Ultralisks in Each Control Group.
Then show the MotherShip Vortex both Zerg Armies Send in 2-4 Archons into Each Vortex with half of each Protoss army also being Sent in to each separate vortex.
Just to show that sometimes even spreading your army ; if you don't have the Banelings will also get you killed as well.
This would be a good example of how effective and good this Strategy is versus Zerg if the Protoss knows what he's doing.
Hopefully this Baneling Strat works out i'll try it next time i come up against an Protoss Mother Ship Toilet.
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On October 13 2011 13:50 Asday wrote:Now people are talking about walling in a vortex? Jesus fuck, why didn't I think of- WAIT A MINUTE I REMEMBER, BECAUSE THAT WOULD NEVER EVER BE FEASIBLE. Not even in 4v4s. Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:45 Keyz1 wrote:
As the OP, I appreciate all the great feedback. I've been messing around with it more and I'll be updating the original post real soon since I didn't cover as much as I could yesterday. *I'll add another video link to contribute to more actual demos.
1 - Some of the tests that I did show that in a real game scenario, a Protoss player who sends in a couple of Archons can easily close in on your broodlords with the rest of their army once the vortex is over, so a high Ultralisk count is actually essential. This prevents stalkers and Collossus from closing in. They'll also give your broodlords enough time to retreat back to Overseers, and Infestors as tanking units if you need time to regroup rather than attack right away.
2 - You can also disrupt any AoE from the Archons if you have a high enough baneling count. 40 Banelings and 8 Ultralisks prevented 7 Archons from giving my Broodlords any damage whatsoever.
3 - The perfect unit composition that's vortex proof seems to be something like: 12 Broodlords, 8 Ultralisks, 10 Infestors, 35 Banelings. This is assuming the Protoss player does not send in more than 7 Archons, which usually they don't, but even then your still pretty safe.
Ultras are pretty worthless, you wanna aim for ~8 banelings per archon, and preferably nothing else in the vortex, as it'll bump into the banes, and be in a place an archon could be receiving splash. As for the collosus stalker force, you're kinda expected to have a roach hydra force.
Yeah I'm not sure of the Baneling to Archon ratio, but 35-40 seems like a safe number to stick with. You can't just make like 70 Banelings in theres 12 archons, probably won't have the supply room with all the other supporting units.
The reason for the Ultralisks are essential, as I updated the main post. Roach/Hydra is good, but Collossus melt Roach/Hydra eventually. Ultralisks melt Stalker/Collossus, and can tank for a lot longer. With no more Archons in your way, Ultralisks are fantastic, especially when in unisen WITH broodlings.
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On October 13 2011 13:47 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 05:01 roymarthyup wrote:On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? archon toilet should not be nerfed. its the only counter to MASS BROOD LORDS. if zerg wants to counter archon toilet, stop relying on mass brood lords. instead stop at 4-5 broodlords, and get mass roaches with some ultralisks and some banelings to deal with zealots because zealots with upgrades counter ultralisks (and no, i dont see a problem with zealots countering ultralisks) archon toilet is good vs air units but bad against mass roaches since roaches are pretty clunkly and spread quickly after a vortex if the toss has storm+zealots it gets hard because storm takes out the banelings and storm also takes out your anti air (hydras). in this scenario as zerg you must forget banelings and have ultralisks+ tons of roaches and a econ advantage. engage with the ultras+roaches and the zealots should get vaporized then retreat and send half of your roaches around the map to flank. your goal is to take out his templars/collossi with roach flanks so your hydras dont melt. carriers and voidrays both kill roaches+ultras slowly, so if the toss has air you deal with it by killing his ground army/zealots and then retreat and flank and mass more roaches then once youve taken out a big part of his ground army you pump out 25 hydras to deal with the air Archon Toilet isn't the Only Counter you can get Void Rays too and 'Spread em' So Fungal isn't as Effective. Void Rays are pretty good vs Corruptors too and pretty good vs most units.
Oh I see, so now it's impossible for zerg to spread out their units against a vortex, but protoss should definitely do so vs fungal? You do know that both of these spells are instant, and that vortex comes from a single, vibrant, huge, slow flying turtle shell, while the other comes from multiple faster units that can move while burrowed. I wonder which one is easier to see coming? Anyone who can't spread before a mothership gets to the battlefield should not be arguing about what is overpowered or underpowered.
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Destiny theorycrafted this extensively yesterday, 8 banelings per archon is a safe bet. It should kill all archons immediately when vortex ends, leaving your brolords with full HP. Here is the VOD:
http://www.twitch.tv/steven_bonnell_ii/b/297339240
He makes the conclusion around 1:00:00 into the VOD
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On October 13 2011 22:37 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 13 2011 05:01 roymarthyup wrote:On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? archon toilet should not be nerfed. its the only counter to MASS BROOD LORDS. if zerg wants to counter archon toilet, stop relying on mass brood lords. instead stop at 4-5 broodlords, and get mass roaches with some ultralisks and some banelings to deal with zealots because zealots with upgrades counter ultralisks (and no, i dont see a problem with zealots countering ultralisks) archon toilet is good vs air units but bad against mass roaches since roaches are pretty clunkly and spread quickly after a vortex if the toss has storm+zealots it gets hard because storm takes out the banelings and storm also takes out your anti air (hydras). in this scenario as zerg you must forget banelings and have ultralisks+ tons of roaches and a econ advantage. engage with the ultras+roaches and the zealots should get vaporized then retreat and send half of your roaches around the map to flank. your goal is to take out his templars/collossi with roach flanks so your hydras dont melt. carriers and voidrays both kill roaches+ultras slowly, so if the toss has air you deal with it by killing his ground army/zealots and then retreat and flank and mass more roaches then once youve taken out a big part of his ground army you pump out 25 hydras to deal with the air Archon Toilet isn't the Only Counter you can get Void Rays too and 'Spread em' So Fungal isn't as Effective. Void Rays are pretty good vs Corruptors too and pretty good vs most units. Oh I see, so now it's impossible for zerg to spread out their units against a vortex, but protoss should definitely do so vs fungal? You do know that both of these spells are instant, and that vortex comes from a single, vibrant, huge, slow flying turtle shell, while the other comes from multiple faster units that can move while burrowed. I wonder which one is easier to see coming? Anyone who can't spread before a mothership gets to the battlefield should not be arguing about what is overpowered or underpowered.
Great response. Now, if spreading your units actually managed to do anything useful in the face of Vortex we would have a great solution here. Unfortunately, even with split units you are still getting a large portion of your army removed from the battle crippling you in the face of any major engagement.
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On October 13 2011 22:37 Fig wrote:
Oh I see, so now it's impossible for zerg to spread out their units against a vortex, but protoss should definitely do so vs fungal? You do know that both of these spells are instant, and that vortex comes from a single, vibrant, huge, slow flying turtle shell, while the other comes from multiple faster units that can move while burrowed. I wonder which one is easier to see coming? Anyone who can't spread before a mothership gets to the battlefield should not be arguing about what is overpowered or underpowered.
How can you even compare infestors to a spell caster that flies, has 700 hp, 2 armor, a strong standard attack, cloaking aura, and with a 20 second completely disabling spell that hits at 2.5 radius. Not to mention fungals need to be chained, and the units hit can still attack while stunned.
Not to mention that even if the Zerg does spread out his broodlords, the mothership still makes it impossible for zerg to engage a protoss in the late game. Even with the worst casted vortex you should easily be able to remove 30-40 supply, making it super easy to snipe any crucial units that did not get vortexed (broods / infestors)
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On October 12 2011 12:21 Trusty wrote:
Got some replays? even unit tester?
I thought with the 1.5seconds invincibility after Vortex, ground units could spread out fast enough to avoid the '1 hit KO splash' syndrome. Air units spread out slower, so they are still affected.
Well what the 1.5 sec thing fixed was putting like exactly enough archons into the vortex to kill the other units inside. You can still put a few more in and when the 1.5 sec expires you still do significant damage most likely still killing all enemy units.
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On October 13 2011 14:02 Keyz1 wrote:
The reason for the Ultralisks are essential, as I updated the main post. Roach/Hydra is good, but Collossus melt Roach/Hydra eventually. Ultralisks melt Stalker/Collossus, and can tank for a lot longer. With no more Archons in your way, Ultralisks are fantastic, especially when in unisen WITH broodlings.
Ultras really aren't that useful considering they can never really catch Colossus or Stalkers, Protoss Tier1 counters them, Void Rays also melt them very very fast and Archons hold up fine against them as well. Like really, what's the point? I mean sure they can be useful to add a few into your army just for the hell of it I guess but I would never consider calling Ultralisks "essential".
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On October 14 2011 05:59 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 14:02 Keyz1 wrote:
The reason for the Ultralisks are essential, as I updated the main post. Roach/Hydra is good, but Collossus melt Roach/Hydra eventually. Ultralisks melt Stalker/Collossus, and can tank for a lot longer. With no more Archons in your way, Ultralisks are fantastic, especially when in unisen WITH broodlings.
Ultras really aren't that useful considering they can never really catch Colossus or Stalkers, Protoss Tier1 counters them, Void Rays also melt them very very fast and Archons hold up fine against them as well. Like really, what's the point? I mean sure they can be useful to add a few into your army just for the hell of it I guess but I would never consider calling Ultralisks "essential".
Well, the infestors just sit there doing nothing actually. They have fungal, but don't know what it does......infested terrans are pretty gimp too......
enough sarcasm,
Fungal + Ultralisk AoE, where the stalker/collossi you gonna run?
Fungal + ITs, where the voids gonna run?
Add Broodlings at the same time.
Majority of the archons died in the toilet, they're not in the way anymore.
Think before you post.
gl hf.
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Sorry if this was mentioned already, but won't the invuln after the toilet make this irrelevant?
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On October 14 2011 11:12 PraetorialGamer wrote:
Sorry if this was mentioned already, but won't the invuln after the toilet make this irrelevant?
Brood lords spread out too slowly to avoid archon splash.
On October 13 2011 22:37 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 13 2011 05:01 roymarthyup wrote:On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? archon toilet should not be nerfed. its the only counter to MASS BROOD LORDS. if zerg wants to counter archon toilet, stop relying on mass brood lords. instead stop at 4-5 broodlords, and get mass roaches with some ultralisks and some banelings to deal with zealots because zealots with upgrades counter ultralisks (and no, i dont see a problem with zealots countering ultralisks) archon toilet is good vs air units but bad against mass roaches since roaches are pretty clunkly and spread quickly after a vortex if the toss has storm+zealots it gets hard because storm takes out the banelings and storm also takes out your anti air (hydras). in this scenario as zerg you must forget banelings and have ultralisks+ tons of roaches and a econ advantage. engage with the ultras+roaches and the zealots should get vaporized then retreat and send half of your roaches around the map to flank. your goal is to take out his templars/collossi with roach flanks so your hydras dont melt. carriers and voidrays both kill roaches+ultras slowly, so if the toss has air you deal with it by killing his ground army/zealots and then retreat and flank and mass more roaches then once youve taken out a big part of his ground army you pump out 25 hydras to deal with the air Archon Toilet isn't the Only Counter you can get Void Rays too and 'Spread em' So Fungal isn't as Effective. Void Rays are pretty good vs Corruptors too and pretty good vs most units. Oh I see, so now it's impossible for zerg to spread out their units against a vortex, but protoss should definitely do so vs fungal? You do know that both of these spells are instant, and that vortex comes from a single, vibrant, huge, slow flying turtle shell, while the other comes from multiple faster units that can move while burrowed. I wonder which one is easier to see coming? Anyone who can't spread before a mothership gets to the battlefield should not be arguing about what is overpowered or underpowered.
If protoss spreads out their brood lords, small packs of blink stalkers WILL fuck them up. If Protoss spreads out his void rays, what's the Zerg gonna do? Send in the corruptors? Oh wait, void rays are cost efficient versus those.
Don't even mention fungal, 'cause the voids are in small groups. You fungalled 3 of them? Fantastic, let me bring another 9 over to clean up your pitiful infestors.
Why is FG being called into question here anyway? It's fairly balanced in its current state, which is more that can be said for the archon toilet, WHICH, is what this thread's about.
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On October 14 2011 11:05 Keyz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:59 BeeNu wrote:On October 13 2011 14:02 Keyz1 wrote:
The reason for the Ultralisks are essential, as I updated the main post. Roach/Hydra is good, but Collossus melt Roach/Hydra eventually. Ultralisks melt Stalker/Collossus, and can tank for a lot longer. With no more Archons in your way, Ultralisks are fantastic, especially when in unisen WITH broodlings.
Ultras really aren't that useful considering they can never really catch Colossus or Stalkers, Protoss Tier1 counters them, Void Rays also melt them very very fast and Archons hold up fine against them as well. Like really, what's the point? I mean sure they can be useful to add a few into your army just for the hell of it I guess but I would never consider calling Ultralisks "essential". Well, the infestors just sit there doing nothing actually. They have fungal, but don't know what it does......infested terrans are pretty gimp too...... enough sarcasm, Fungal + Ultralisk AoE, where the stalker/collossi you gonna run? Fungal + ITs, where the voids gonna run? Add Broodlings at the same time. Majority of the archons died in the toilet, they're not in the way anymore. Think before you post. gl hf.
Ugh, this is one of the worst responses I've ever gotten. Essential? Really? You have to be kidding me. You just invested a large sum of resources into keeping your Broodlords alive for the end duration and you want to fill your ground force's supply up with Ultralisks? Talk about a waste of money.
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On October 14 2011 13:32 Asday wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 11:12 PraetorialGamer wrote:
Sorry if this was mentioned already, but won't the invuln after the toilet make this irrelevant? Brood lords spread out too slowly to avoid archon splash. Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 22:37 Fig wrote:On October 13 2011 13:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 13 2011 05:01 roymarthyup wrote:On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? archon toilet should not be nerfed. its the only counter to MASS BROOD LORDS. if zerg wants to counter archon toilet, stop relying on mass brood lords. instead stop at 4-5 broodlords, and get mass roaches with some ultralisks and some banelings to deal with zealots because zealots with upgrades counter ultralisks (and no, i dont see a problem with zealots countering ultralisks) archon toilet is good vs air units but bad against mass roaches since roaches are pretty clunkly and spread quickly after a vortex if the toss has storm+zealots it gets hard because storm takes out the banelings and storm also takes out your anti air (hydras). in this scenario as zerg you must forget banelings and have ultralisks+ tons of roaches and a econ advantage. engage with the ultras+roaches and the zealots should get vaporized then retreat and send half of your roaches around the map to flank. your goal is to take out his templars/collossi with roach flanks so your hydras dont melt. carriers and voidrays both kill roaches+ultras slowly, so if the toss has air you deal with it by killing his ground army/zealots and then retreat and flank and mass more roaches then once youve taken out a big part of his ground army you pump out 25 hydras to deal with the air Archon Toilet isn't the Only Counter you can get Void Rays too and 'Spread em' So Fungal isn't as Effective. Void Rays are pretty good vs Corruptors too and pretty good vs most units. Oh I see, so now it's impossible for zerg to spread out their units against a vortex, but protoss should definitely do so vs fungal? You do know that both of these spells are instant, and that vortex comes from a single, vibrant, huge, slow flying turtle shell, while the other comes from multiple faster units that can move while burrowed. I wonder which one is easier to see coming? Anyone who can't spread before a mothership gets to the battlefield should not be arguing about what is overpowered or underpowered. If protoss spreads out their brood lords, small packs of blink stalkers WILL fuck them up. If Protoss spreads out his void rays, what's the Zerg gonna do? Send in the corruptors? Oh wait, void rays are cost efficient versus those. Don't even mention fungal, 'cause the voids are in small groups. You fungalled 3 of them? Fantastic, let me bring another 9 over to clean up your pitiful infestors. Why is FG being called into question here anyway? It's fairly balanced in its current state, which is more that can be said for the archon toilet, WHICH, is what this thread's about.
You seem to not understand an archon toilet. It uses archons, not void rays. If a toss ever has mass stalker (to kill the spread out broodlords in your example), 12 voids (from your example), along with a mothership and plenty of archons, you let him get away with way too much.
Now lets go over the strategic options against a mothership. There can only be one mothership on the map at a time. It is big and slow and can't teleport like it could in the beta. This means that if you want, you can just avoid confrontations with it by backstabbing and counterattacking.
Plus there is always a way to beat something, and if you really want to engage in blob vs blob wars vs a protoss, in this case flanking is the answer. A mothership only has 200 energy max, so at most two vortexes can be used at a time. Come in with corruptors from all sides (corruptors have more than twice the movespeed of a mothership, so no excuse for not getting full surround). Plus fungal holds it in place rather nicely. They take it out as quickly as they can take out 2 collosi. Then fungal their army, retreat, and morph to broods and wreck before another makes it out 160 secs later (sooner with chronoboost).
Also fungal can also be used to hold the archons in place if you ever do let all your broods get vortexed. That way they can't enter the vortex and the toilet never even happens.
Plenty of options. Some easier than others, but I can't believe you are calling vortex overpowered. Don't call something overpowered before you exhaust all possibilities.
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EPT
