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Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games.
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On October 13 2011 12:24 Asday wrote:
Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games.
idk, I think it counts as being cost effective considering at that point in the game you should easily be able to afford that many banelings and it would be a worthwhile investment if it keeps your Broodlords from instantly popping like zits.
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On October 13 2011 12:26 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:24 Asday wrote:
Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games. idk, I think it counts as being cost effective considering at that point in the game you should easily be able to afford that many banelings and it would be a worthwhile investment if it keeps your Broodlords from instantly popping like zits.
If you mis-count, and are missing a row of banelings (one archon's worth), all your brood lords still die. Go to a unit tester, and check out the margin for error. Pretty fucking ridiculous. If it's that easy to get wrong, I call it cost ineffective.
I agree with your point, though. Time not important, only life important.
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You can use hold position spine crawlers to keep units clumped for more efficient baneling hits. It is interesting but I don't know if it's useful or not.
Try it out in a unit tester, you can kill 50+ archons with 20 banelings and 5 spine crawlers:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GFCfo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gBJkx.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0Iguv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rin9q.jpg)
Wow!
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The Mothership should be removed from the Game.
The Vortex is a Clutch ability that allows Protoss to come back in situations where they have lost and use a clutch strat to win with Arhcon Toilet.
I'll post a Replay of mine showing how ridiculously Effective the Archon Toilet can be.
I had 3/3 Upgrades Mass Roach a few dozen lings 6-7 Infestors... Mostly Roach Army though and it got annihilated by Zealot Archon which Roach is supposed to Counter..
The Roach army was 2/2 Upgrades during the Engagement and the Zealot/Archon Army with MotherShip was only 1 attack upgrades that's it
My Army absolutely Melted he attacked one of my bases And i as i pursued his army to stop him from attacking my mining base he used his mothership right on the mass of my army.
I didn't have any corruptors at the time because i was maxed out but doesn't really make a difference when you realise Motherships vortex Outranges. everything Zerg has and most Smart protoss will just keep their Death Ball right underneath it.
Its a situation where a much worse players can easily get a win by using Clutch Dirty Tactics to beat a superior Player.
Replay's right here for anyone wanting to analyze.
http://replayfu.com/download/N19qDn
Honestly Zerg shouldn't have to attempt all these gimmicks to counter something that seems extremely abusive.. and can slaughter 12 broodlords in 3 seconds flat.
The Video posted in the OP isn't really indicative of what happens in a real situation..
Most Smart Protoss vortex Brood lords Sometimes 2 Vortexes So Spreading your Army like the one guy claimed doesn't really help too much. They can throw a few Archons in and your entire Air Army Evaporates in Seconds. It works well against Ground armys too if you watch my Replay.
The Protoss is supposed to send the Archons in First and from Different Angles of the Vortex When they send them in For best Effect.
The Video in The OP Is kind a bit misleading on what most people will do when they vortex you.... If you watch the Vidoe the Archons don't really get many shots at all on the Brood Lords because they don't Spawn under them like Most Protoss do because they send the Archons in First and from the a few different Angles and the Archons Spawn all around when the Vortex Releases the Armies and They get Huge Splash off on the Broods.
In the Replay in the OP The Archons aren't really released under the Broodslords but just far enough so only 1-2 Archons actually get Shots at the Broods.
This Baneling Strat seems like a great Idea; as a Zerg it's frustrating to have to be 'prepared to use such Gimmicks as these to actually try and counter these Strats.
But from now on if i See Archon Zealot comps Or Mother Ship Toilets... I'll try the 30 Baneling Toilet.
I'm hoping Blizzard Removes the Mothership the Vortex thing always seems overpowered to me its just a really gimicky situation where you can lose your whole army if you don't 'Spread' or 'Position' It Right..
But Protoss can just 1A their Death Ball... Sorry if it seems whiny i'm just not seeing how the Mothership's abilities are really that Fair. Because you have to have more skill than your enemy to successfully defend these kind of strats.
BTW sorry for the balance whine just really frustrated with people abusing Archon Toilet on the Ladder
And in Real Game Situations this Baneling Thing Isn't Exactly The Safest Strat because they don't always Send in their Whole Army Sometimes Just a Bunch of Archons..
As you can see in my Replay though Archon Toilets Work Even Well against Pure Ground Armies.
As my 2/2 Upgrades Roach Army Melted to his 1+ attack Protoss Army in 5 seconds.
Sorry for the Bad Grammar
/EndRant
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On October 13 2011 12:46 Asday wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:26 BeeNu wrote:On October 13 2011 12:24 Asday wrote:
Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games. idk, I think it counts as being cost effective considering at that point in the game you should easily be able to afford that many banelings and it would be a worthwhile investment if it keeps your Broodlords from instantly popping like zits. If you mis-count, and are missing a row of banelings (one archon's worth), all your brood lords still die. Go to a unit tester, and check out the margin for error. Pretty fucking ridiculous. If it's that easy to get wrong, I call it cost ineffective. I agree with your point, though. Time not important, only life important.
Yeah, I was playing around with this a couple weeks ago, it's pretty ridiculous what happens if you can't insta-kill the Archons, it's basically you have to instantly kill them all or it's all for nothing so a rather razor-thin margin for error which makes it pretty scary.
But...I just had a bit of an epiphany while writing this...couldn't you just use Infestors to Fungal and keep the Archons from entering the toilet in the first place?
Ok wait maybe I think I got it now. What you need to do is get an infestor and research neural parasite....then what you do is take over a probe and build your own nexus and start making your own Archons to throw into the vortex to counter the enemy's archons! brilliant!
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On October 13 2011 12:59 Tunzi wrote:You can use hold position spine crawlers to keep units clumped for more efficient baneling hits. It is interesting but I don't know if it's useful or not. Try it out in a unit tester, you can kill 50+ archons with 20 banelings and 5 spine crawlers: Wow!
OMG LOLOLOL nice find!!! holy shit!
does this mean that the archon toilet may have been nerfed too much if zerg can simply counter like that? (considering that you can still do splash damage now even after the invincibility time, it seems they still want you to be able to do the toilet but just to a much lesser or expensive degree, vs completely removing any chance of splashing due to the vortex)
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On October 13 2011 13:07 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:46 Asday wrote:On October 13 2011 12:26 BeeNu wrote:On October 13 2011 12:24 Asday wrote:
Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games. idk, I think it counts as being cost effective considering at that point in the game you should easily be able to afford that many banelings and it would be a worthwhile investment if it keeps your Broodlords from instantly popping like zits. If you mis-count, and are missing a row of banelings (one archon's worth), all your brood lords still die. Go to a unit tester, and check out the margin for error. Pretty fucking ridiculous. If it's that easy to get wrong, I call it cost ineffective. I agree with your point, though. Time not important, only life important. Yeah, I was playing around with this a couple weeks ago, it's pretty ridiculous what happens if you can't insta-kill the Archons, it's basically you have to instantly kill them all or it's all for nothing so a rather razor-thin margin for error which makes it pretty scary. But...I just had a bit of an epiphany while writing this...couldn't you just use Infestors to Fungal and keep the Archons from entering the toilet in the first place?
It's certainly possible... but that's a lot of energy. Assuming 2 fungals gets all the archons for 4 seconds, that's 10 fungals to lock them down for 20 seconds. Not to mention that's a long time to expose your infestors without full army support. I'm sure its worth using in certain situations though, like if the vortex zones your army from theirs so your infestors are protected?
I want my 8 second fungal back... and not just for this reason obviously. T.T
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On October 12 2011 14:46 Anihc wrote:
You know what a better counter is to vortex? Spread out your army and don't throw everything into it.
In Most Situations that's just not feasible if you spread your army too Thin Blink Stalkers Come in and Annihilate.
So we have to spread our army out into 2-L3 separate groups with the perfect army comp certain amount of roachs/infestors under/by the Brood Lords to ward off blink stalker while Trying to Snipe the MotherShip.
While the Protoss can just keep his whole army in one Clump.
There's a stark disparity of skill requirement involved in the Situation Protoss just 1a their Death Ball Around while Zerg is Forced to do this Crazy Spreading and/or Get Corruptors Destroyed by Blink Stalkers while Trying to Snipe the Mother Ship. While Keeping your 3 Army Groups Split up Seperated and Avoid Getting them Vortexed.
Its a bit annoying because your forced to do so much. While Protoss in this situation have a much easier time executing this strategy.
As a Zerg trying to Defend against this it makes u ragey Especially if they cut off one of your Expo's and you can't get to it because they will just Vortex your Army.
It's also not fun when your maxed out on your Zerg Army and you see the Mothership and you hadn't made Corruptors yet. Because then you're almost Forced to Throw away your army or Turn Drones into Spines to Free up Supply For Corruptors.
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On October 13 2011 13:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:59 Tunzi wrote:You can use hold position spine crawlers to keep units clumped for more efficient baneling hits. It is interesting but I don't know if it's useful or not. Try it out in a unit tester, you can kill 50+ archons with 20 banelings and 5 spine crawlers: Wow! OMG LOLOLOL nice find!!! holy shit! does this mean that the archon toilet may have been nerfed too much if zerg can simply counter like that? (considering that you can still do splash damage now even after the invincibility time, it seems they still want you to be able to do the toilet but just to a much lesser or expensive degree, vs completely removing any chance of splashing due to the vortex)
That's not really gonna be feasible in a real game situation or would be really hard to pull off. You'd have to have Creep there and 5 Spines At the Spot where it Happens..
The Protoss Chooses where to Engage not the Zerg Especially when they have the MotherShip.
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On October 13 2011 13:14 Gelenn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:07 BeeNu wrote:On October 13 2011 12:46 Asday wrote:On October 13 2011 12:26 BeeNu wrote:On October 13 2011 12:24 Asday wrote:
Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games. idk, I think it counts as being cost effective considering at that point in the game you should easily be able to afford that many banelings and it would be a worthwhile investment if it keeps your Broodlords from instantly popping like zits. If you mis-count, and are missing a row of banelings (one archon's worth), all your brood lords still die. Go to a unit tester, and check out the margin for error. Pretty fucking ridiculous. If it's that easy to get wrong, I call it cost ineffective. I agree with your point, though. Time not important, only life important. Yeah, I was playing around with this a couple weeks ago, it's pretty ridiculous what happens if you can't insta-kill the Archons, it's basically you have to instantly kill them all or it's all for nothing so a rather razor-thin margin for error which makes it pretty scary. But...I just had a bit of an epiphany while writing this...couldn't you just use Infestors to Fungal and keep the Archons from entering the toilet in the first place? It's certainly possible... but that's a lot of energy. Assuming 2 fungals gets all the archons for 4 seconds, that's 10 fungals to lock them down for 20 seconds. Not to mention that's a long time to expose your infestors without full army support. I'm sure its worth using in certain situations though, like if the vortex zones your army from theirs so your infestors are protected? I want my 8 second fungal back... and not just for this reason obviously. T.T
Eh, I just tested it out a bit and it turns out to be completely worthless, ahhh well. It sounded much better in theory. The thing is, to fungal the archons your infestors have to be just outside of the opposite side of the vortex, and at about max fungal range this places the archon just outside the opposite of the vortex...the big problem lies in the fact that your broodlords still come out of the vortex all clumped in a tiny ball and archons lying just outside the vortex are still in range to kill them.
Was worth testing anyways I suppose.
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On October 13 2011 13:22 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 14:46 Anihc wrote:
You know what a better counter is to vortex? Spread out your army and don't throw everything into it. In Most Situations that's just not feasible if you spread your army too Thin Blink Stalkers Come in and Annihilate. So we have to spread our army out into 2-L3 separate groups with the perfect army comp certain amount of roachs/infestors under/by the Brood Lords to ward off blink stalker while Trying to Snipe the MotherShip. While the Protoss can just keep his whole army in one Clump. There's a stark disparity of skill requirement involved in the Situation Protoss just 1a their Death Ball Around while Zerg is Forced to do this Crazy Spreading and/or Get Corruptors Destroyed by Blink Stalkers while Trying to Snipe the Mother Ship. While Keeping your 3 Army Groups Split up Seperated and Avoid Getting them Vortexed. Its a bit annoying because your forced to do so much. While Protoss in this situation have a much easier time executing this strategy. As a Zerg trying to Defend against this it makes u ragey Especially if they cut off one of your Expo's and you can't get to it because they will just Vortex your Army. It's also not fun when your maxed out on your Zerg Army and you see the Mothership and you hadn't made Corruptors yet. Because then you're almost Forced to Throw away your army or Turn Drones into Spines to Free up Supply For Corruptors.
Way to contribute nothing but whining. The spreading your units out issue has been discussed in great detail in this thread, have you not bothered to read it at all? Please don't post like this.
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On October 13 2011 13:24 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 13 2011 12:59 Tunzi wrote:You can use hold position spine crawlers to keep units clumped for more efficient baneling hits. It is interesting but I don't know if it's useful or not. Try it out in a unit tester, you can kill 50+ archons with 20 banelings and 5 spine crawlers: Wow! OMG LOLOLOL nice find!!! holy shit! does this mean that the archon toilet may have been nerfed too much if zerg can simply counter like that? (considering that you can still do splash damage now even after the invincibility time, it seems they still want you to be able to do the toilet but just to a much lesser or expensive degree, vs completely removing any chance of splashing due to the vortex) That's not really gonna be feasible in a real game situation or would be really hard to pull off. You'd have to have Creep there and 5 Spines At the Spot where it Happens.. The Protoss Chooses where to Engage not the Zerg Especially when they have the MotherShip.
Not to mention it would be incredibly easy for the Protoss to just kill the Spines with Colossus or Stalkers.
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On October 13 2011 13:27 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:22 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 12 2011 14:46 Anihc wrote:
You know what a better counter is to vortex? Spread out your army and don't throw everything into it. In Most Situations that's just not feasible if you spread your army too Thin Blink Stalkers Come in and Annihilate. So we have to spread our army out into 2-L3 separate groups with the perfect army comp certain amount of roachs/infestors under/by the Brood Lords to ward off blink stalker while Trying to Snipe the MotherShip. While the Protoss can just keep his whole army in one Clump. There's a stark disparity of skill requirement involved in the Situation Protoss just 1a their Death Ball Around while Zerg is Forced to do this Crazy Spreading and/or Get Corruptors Destroyed by Blink Stalkers while Trying to Snipe the Mother Ship. While Keeping your 3 Army Groups Split up Seperated and Avoid Getting them Vortexed. Its a bit annoying because your forced to do so much. While Protoss in this situation have a much easier time executing this strategy. As a Zerg trying to Defend against this it makes u ragey Especially if they cut off one of your Expo's and you can't get to it because they will just Vortex your Army. It's also not fun when your maxed out on your Zerg Army and you see the Mothership and you hadn't made Corruptors yet. Because then you're almost Forced to Throw away your army or Turn Drones into Spines to Free up Supply For Corruptors. Way to contribute nothing but whining. The spreading your units out issue has been discussed in great detail in this thread, have you not bothered to read it at all? Please don't post like this.
So you agree a Protoss can Execute an engagement with a MotherShip Easier than a Zerg Can Defend it?
Sorry for the purported 'whining' But how do you find 2-3 Archons Melting 15 Brood Lords Balance\
Not to Mention the Slow Speed of Broods makes these kind of Engagements With the MotherShip a bit of a Nightmare
User was warned for this post
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Someone's suggesting bringing baller crawlers to the fight...? What the FUCK planet do you live from, and how much is the internet connection to earth? I'm all for stupid shit in team games, but 1v1 imbalance is serious internet business.
On October 13 2011 13:07 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:46 Asday wrote:On October 13 2011 12:26 BeeNu wrote:On October 13 2011 12:24 Asday wrote:
Destiny's testing on stream now.
So far:
Infested Terrans are horseshit.
Ultralisks are horseshit.
Banelings are cost-ineffective, but so far the only way to save your brood lords.
With +3 melee against +3 shields, you need ~8 banelings per Archon. This means you need an accurate count of his archons, and a lot of banelings ready whenever you engage.
Cost ineffective as shit, but the protoss shouldn't have any archons left, and you should still have all your BLs, so you can hopefully roll him.
Still don't know how it'd work in games. idk, I think it counts as being cost effective considering at that point in the game you should easily be able to afford that many banelings and it would be a worthwhile investment if it keeps your Broodlords from instantly popping like zits. If you mis-count, and are missing a row of banelings (one archon's worth), all your brood lords still die. Go to a unit tester, and check out the margin for error. Pretty fucking ridiculous. If it's that easy to get wrong, I call it cost ineffective. I agree with your point, though. Time not important, only life important. Yeah, I was playing around with this a couple weeks ago, it's pretty ridiculous what happens if you can't insta-kill the Archons, it's basically you have to instantly kill them all or it's all for nothing so a rather razor-thin margin for error which makes it pretty scary. But...I just had a bit of an epiphany while writing this...couldn't you just use Infestors to Fungal and keep the Archons from entering the toilet in the first place?
No, because the entirety of the rest of the Protoss arsenal exists.
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On October 13 2011 13:27 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:24 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 13 2011 13:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 13 2011 12:59 Tunzi wrote:You can use hold position spine crawlers to keep units clumped for more efficient baneling hits. It is interesting but I don't know if it's useful or not. Try it out in a unit tester, you can kill 50+ archons with 20 banelings and 5 spine crawlers: Wow! OMG LOLOLOL nice find!!! holy shit! does this mean that the archon toilet may have been nerfed too much if zerg can simply counter like that? (considering that you can still do splash damage now even after the invincibility time, it seems they still want you to be able to do the toilet but just to a much lesser or expensive degree, vs completely removing any chance of splashing due to the vortex) That's not really gonna be feasible in a real game situation or would be really hard to pull off. You'd have to have Creep there and 5 Spines At the Spot where it Happens.. The Protoss Chooses where to Engage not the Zerg Especially when they have the MotherShip. Not to mention it would be incredibly easy for the Protoss to just kill the Spines with Colossus or Stalkers.
You may not be able to pull it off, but its use is still there. Just the possibility of this happening if the Protoss is on creep helps a lot. Plus, who wouldn't have a bunch of spine crawlers on the map that late in the game? Though you're right they wouldn't put their entire army into the toilet.
Just wondering is it possible to build buildings around the vortex? What if you made a square of evolution chambers? Though I guess it wouldn't make sense since a Protoss would only vortex if they would catch a significant amount of the zerg army.
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On October 13 2011 13:32 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 13:27 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 13:22 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 12 2011 14:46 Anihc wrote:
You know what a better counter is to vortex? Spread out your army and don't throw everything into it. In Most Situations that's just not feasible if you spread your army too Thin Blink Stalkers Come in and Annihilate. So we have to spread our army out into 2-L3 separate groups with the perfect army comp certain amount of roachs/infestors under/by the Brood Lords to ward off blink stalker while Trying to Snipe the MotherShip. While the Protoss can just keep his whole army in one Clump. There's a stark disparity of skill requirement involved in the Situation Protoss just 1a their Death Ball Around while Zerg is Forced to do this Crazy Spreading and/or Get Corruptors Destroyed by Blink Stalkers while Trying to Snipe the Mother Ship. While Keeping your 3 Army Groups Split up Seperated and Avoid Getting them Vortexed. Its a bit annoying because your forced to do so much. While Protoss in this situation have a much easier time executing this strategy. As a Zerg trying to Defend against this it makes u ragey Especially if they cut off one of your Expo's and you can't get to it because they will just Vortex your Army. It's also not fun when your maxed out on your Zerg Army and you see the Mothership and you hadn't made Corruptors yet. Because then you're almost Forced to Throw away your army or Turn Drones into Spines to Free up Supply For Corruptors. Way to contribute nothing but whining. The spreading your units out issue has been discussed in great detail in this thread, have you not bothered to read it at all? Please don't post like this. So you agree a Protoss can Execute an engagement with a MotherShip Easier than a Zerg Can Defend it? Sorry for the purported 'whining' But how do you find 2-3 Archons Melting 15 Brood Lords Balance\ Not to Mention the Slow Speed of Broods makes these kind of Engagements With the MotherShip a bit of a Nightmare
Random capitalisation doesn't make up for bad grammar. Use the shift key responsibly, or not at all.
This is a thread for working out how to get around the fact that the archon BL toilet is fucking bullshit. Coming in here and proclaiming it's fucking bullshit like it's news is like tripping over a midget twice. We know we're small damnit.
If you can think of a feasible way to enter lategame vP, and not have to be ready for some dry humping, and an unsatisfying gg, then by all means, post, but if not, leave.
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On October 12 2011 23:57 zylog wrote:
The baneling vs archon tactic was done in the GSL several months ago, Nestea vs San. Basically everytime San vortexed, Nestea would bring his banes nearby to discourage the archons from going in. However, if I remember correctly San still won after archon toileting Nestea's brood lords.
This.. like i said just doesn't 'feel' right Zerg has to use these Gimmicks to Counter such a strategy that the protoss can abuse so effectively
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As the OP, I appreciate all the great feedback. I've been messing around with it more and I'll be updating the original post real soon since I didn't cover as much as I could yesterday. *I'll add another video link to contribute to more actual demos.
1 - Some of the tests that I did show that in a real game scenario, a Protoss player who sends in a couple of Archons can easily close in on your broodlords with the rest of their army once the vortex is over, so a high Ultralisk count is actually essential. This prevents stalkers and Collossus from closing in. They'll also give your broodlords enough time to retreat back to Overseers, and Infestors as tanking units if you need time to regroup rather than attack right away.
2 - You can also disrupt any AoE from the Archons if you have a high enough baneling count. 40 Banelings and 8 Ultralisks prevented 7 Archons from giving my Broodlords any damage whatsoever.
3 - The perfect unit composition that's vortex proof seems to be something like: 12 Broodlords, 8 Ultralisks, 10 Infestors, 35 Banelings. This is assuming the Protoss player does not send in more than 7 Archons, which usually they don't, but even then your still pretty safe.
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On October 13 2011 05:01 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? archon toilet should not be nerfed. its the only counter to MASS BROOD LORDS. if zerg wants to counter archon toilet, stop relying on mass brood lords. instead stop at 4-5 broodlords, and get mass roaches with some ultralisks and some banelings to deal with zealots because zealots with upgrades counter ultralisks (and no, i dont see a problem with zealots countering ultralisks) archon toilet is good vs air units but bad against mass roaches since roaches are pretty clunkly and spread quickly after a vortex if the toss has storm+zealots it gets hard because storm takes out the banelings and storm also takes out your anti air (hydras). in this scenario as zerg you must forget banelings and have ultralisks+ tons of roaches and a econ advantage. engage with the ultras+roaches and the zealots should get vaporized then retreat and send half of your roaches around the map to flank. your goal is to take out his templars/collossi with roach flanks so your hydras dont melt. carriers and voidrays both kill roaches+ultras slowly, so if the toss has air you deal with it by killing his ground army/zealots and then retreat and flank and mass more roaches then once youve taken out a big part of his ground army you pump out 25 hydras to deal with the air
Archon Toilet isn't the Only Counter you can get Void Rays too and 'Spread em' So Fungal isn't as Effective.
Void Rays are pretty good vs Corruptors too and pretty good vs most units.
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EPT
