EPT[PvZ] Archon Toilet Counter. - Page 4
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:10 Asday wrote: You tell me what blink stalkers feel like when you have your brood lords spread out. You WANT to spread out your broodlord vs blink stalker though.... so they can't get under all with one blink and your broodlings zone them out for you. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:15 Atreides wrote: You WANT to spread out your broodlord vs blink stalker though.... so they can't get under all with one blink and your broodlings zone them out for you. Uhhh, I highly disagree. If Broodlords are spread out it's actually very easy for Blink Stalkers to just pick them off 1 by 1 because not all of your Broodlords are going to be in range of each other to deal damage, you just lack the raw firepower to actually do anything against a large army. By the time Protoss are actually moving out with a Mothership odds are that they have a pretty significant death ball to back it up, meaning it's going to vaporize just about anything unless you've got a large amount of Broods all assaulting the ball in unison. Even without the Mothership Zergs still have to spread their Broodlords out to reduce the damage of Storm but the Zerg still has to keep the Broodlords fairly close to each other to be of any use. So like, lets say Zerg is spread out a decent amount but not too far, well then Vortex is still going to catch a large portion of the Zerg army since a lot of the ground forces have to be under the Broodlords or they die to Stalkers, meaning still nearly half your army will be split apart with a single Vortex allowing the other half of your army to just get demolished. Also, contrary to popular belief, if a Zerg loses a 200/200 army they can only really remax it a few times at most before their half of the map is running dry on minerals meanwhile Protoss keeps demolishing the Zerg force while losing something absurd like 20 supply in every major engagement. On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote: I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? I think Mothership actually does effect balance a lot more than people are giving credit for. The reason we still hardly see Motherships at a pro level is because Protoss players are for some reason, incredibly reluctant to explore new things in my opinion. A lot of Zerg players have known for quite some time that Motherships are incredibly powerful if Protoss just actually learn to properly utilize them, it's only just recently that using the Mothership has started to become more mainstream. Months ago many Zergs tried telling Protoss players to use Warp Prisms because it's only a 100 gas one-time investment for permanent mineral-only harassment against Zerg and were called idiots and told that Warp Prism was trash and nobody ever uses it because it's trash. Well, now you see Warp Prism used against Zerg constantly. Zerg players have also been saying for a long time that Mothership is incredibly powerful to the point of being nearly broken, once again for the longest time Protoss respond by saying that the Mothership is trash and a joke gimmick unit, but now a few of them are starting to realize that the Zergs were right. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote: I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? I've seen it a lot recently, do to the two guides (one by Plexa, other one by I can't remember). I actually ran a practice session with one of my practice partners where we played 5 games in a row of him going 1gate expo -> Mothership/Archon. Usually with MS play they can't really put pressure until the MS comes out so I've won either by doing roach all-ins (if not properly scouted... one void ray won't really stop the roaches from killing all the buildings) or by playing greedy and double expanding/mass muta play (since the mothership can't ever catch the mutas, and even if the mothership does vortex... if you're fast enough you can move the mutas right as the vortex ends to minimize the splash damage so they don't all die. It is ridiculous difficult to deal with though, you can't really engage the army without losing all of it, so you either need to have a huge resource advantage where you can keep remaxing, or you need to play the ling/muta style where his army can really never catch yours. | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
Spread out does not = having them 20 range apart. Spread out means slightly apart, so that a vortex only hits 2-3 even with 20 broods you could spread out so a vortex hit 4 at most and still ahve all broods attack stalkers regardless of which brood they tried focus. I suppose you shouldn't spread tanks either since then they can be picked off? NO, they got an insane range so they can cover each other despite being spread, and broodlords also got an insane range. I latest today spread broodlords in ZvP against blink stalkers, and it is extremely good due to preventing a single blink from killing 5-10 broods, as when you spread out it turns into 1-2 EDIT: also I would love to know what protoss deathball can lose 20 supply to infestor brood When I have met groundarmy+mothership comps I have not in a long long time had half my army vortexed, the number is much closer to 20% or so | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:11 ThirdDegree wrote: I have a question as to the relevance of this topic. I am not trying to troll or be mean or anything like that, I genuinely want to know. Even if the toilet was never nerfed, how bad would it really be? Do zergs see a lot of MS play? I myself only bring it out when I just want to have a little fun. I know there are strategies that involve the MS, but I feel like they are few and far between. Even with a broken mechanic, does it really affect balance all that much? archon toilet should not be nerfed. its the only counter to MASS BROOD LORDS. if zerg wants to counter archon toilet, stop relying on mass brood lords. instead stop at 4-5 broodlords, and get mass roaches with some ultralisks and some banelings to deal with zealots because zealots with upgrades counter ultralisks (and no, i dont see a problem with zealots countering ultralisks) archon toilet is good vs air units but bad against mass roaches since roaches are pretty clunkly and spread quickly after a vortex if the toss has storm+zealots it gets hard because storm takes out the banelings and storm also takes out your anti air (hydras). in this scenario as zerg you must forget banelings and have ultralisks+ tons of roaches and a econ advantage. engage with the ultras+roaches and the zealots should get vaporized then retreat and send half of your roaches around the map to flank. your goal is to take out his templars/collossi with roach flanks so your hydras dont melt. carriers and voidrays both kill roaches+ultras slowly, so if the toss has air you deal with it by killing his ground army/zealots and then retreat and flank and mass more roaches then once youve taken out a big part of his ground army you pump out 25 hydras to deal with the air | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 13 2011 04:46 NTTemplar wrote: @ Beenu Spread out does not = having them 20 range apart. Spread out means slightly apart, so that a vortex only hits 2-3 even with 20 broods you could spread out so a vortex hit 4 at most and still ahve all broods attack stalkers regardless of which brood they tried focus. I suppose you shouldn't spread tanks either since then they can be picked off? NO, they got an insane range so they can cover each other despite being spread, and broodlords also got an insane range. I latest today spread broodlords in ZvP against blink stalkers, and it is extremely good due to preventing a single blink from killing 5-10 broods, as when you spread out it turns into 1-2 EDIT: also I would love to know what protoss deathball can lose 20 supply to infestor brood When I have met groundarmy+mothership comps I have not in a long long time had half my army vortexed, the number is much closer to 20% or so Well, I might have exaggerated a bit by saying 20 supply, it's probably closer to 40. What unit composition could I be referring to? How about Colossus, Void Ray, Archon, Stalker, Mothership? [I've also seen a few toss mix Carriers into this composition] Also Infestor/Broodlord isn't really that good any more since when facing the deathball I just described about the only thing Fungal is good for is the Stalkers and NP is worthless. Comparing Broodlords to Siege Tanks is pretty pointless though, you spread Siege Tanks mainly to cover more range and because they can't attack at close range and because they do splash damage to each other if they are clumped up whereas Broodlords need to be spread because of the aoe of Storm and Vortex. Not to mention Siege Tanks have something like 4 more range than Broodlords making them much better at covering each other than Broodlords are. I am really curious as to how you would go about spreading 20 Broodlords, like what kind of a formation? Spread them out into a large concave line or like stagger them into a few rows? Actually I don't think it matters which formation because there's big problems with both of these, if you're in a line the Toss can just attack from the edges of the line like I said earlier and pick your units off because they are forced to cover too much ground to properly engage and it's very immobile unless the Toss is just dumb enough to attack it straight on into the center. If you're talking about staggering them in rows you still get the problem where the ones in the front are attacking and the ones behind it aren't in range because you have to keep them on hold position or else they would naturally clump back up as they move forward to attack in range. | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
On October 12 2011 13:08 ChineseWife wrote: why would protoss send his whole army into the vortex? that defeats the purpose of the spell NA protoss's have 1 unit hotkey.  | ||
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Hogger
2 Posts
Please continue to make banelings thinking protoss are dumb enough to send all their units in.. Seriously, did you think before posting it? As a protoss you just can wait till the very end of vortex to send ur units in to make sure there are not banelings coming after. The only scenarios you put forward is against protoss that send all their units or all their archons... and I don't think bronze protoss (yeah, ones who could think of bringing all their units in banelings) do this tech so I don't see the point of this thread except the funny video... User was warned for this post | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 13 2011 05:37 BeeNu wrote: Well, I might have exaggerated a bit by saying 20 supply, it's probably closer to 40. What unit composition could I be referring to? How about Colossus, Void Ray, Archon, Stalker, Mothership? [I've also seen a few toss mix Carriers into this composition] Also Infestor/Broodlord isn't really that good any more since when facing the deathball I just described about the only thing Fungal is good for is the Stalkers and NP is worthless. Comparing Broodlords to Siege Tanks is pretty pointless though, you spread Siege Tanks mainly to cover more range and because they can't attack at close range and because they do splash damage to each other if they are clumped up whereas Broodlords need to be spread because of the aoe of Storm and Vortex. Not to mention Siege Tanks have something like 4 more range than Broodlords making them much better at covering each other than Broodlords are. I am really curious as to how you would go about spreading 20 Broodlords, like what kind of a formation? Spread them out into a large concave line or like stagger them into a few rows? Actually I don't think it matters which formation because there's big problems with both of these, if you're in a line the Toss can just attack from the edges of the line like I said earlier and pick your units off because they are forced to cover too much ground to properly engage and it's very immobile unless the Toss is just dumb enough to attack it straight on into the center. If you're talking about staggering them in rows you still get the problem where the ones in the front are attacking and the ones behind it aren't in range because you have to keep them on hold position or else they would naturally clump back up as they move forward to attack in range. I said this before in this thread to someone else, but you are seriously overestimating the radius of both vortex and storm. Brood lords are already pretty big and have a decent spread by themselves if you just leave them alone. It's not difficult at all to either let them stay spread out, or manually separate them into 2 or 3 groups. I know that when they start attacking they clump up again, but they'll clump up into a line which is still perfectly fine and won't be suspect to just 1 vortex. I just tried this several times in the unit tester, with NO micro or prepositioning at all, I took 10 brood lords and moved them over a short distance to attack a single nexus. Then I vortexed the middle of the brood lords, and still only caught about half of them. Again, this is with NO micro on the zerg part. If the zerg put an ounce of micro into it or just attacked multiple objects like an expansion/cannon line, they would be spread out even more and vortex would catch much less. And this is still not "exposed" to blink stalkers from 1 edge either, yes I understand it's always better for the protoss to engage from the edge rather than the middle but the battle is still going to end badly for the protoss especially when the zerg is in the realm of 10-20 brood lords. No protoss ground army is going to beat that, if you're playing a protoss who is trying to beat your 20 brood lords with stalkers he's a bad protoss and if you're losing 20 brood lords to stalkers you're a bad zerg. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:13 Anihc wrote: I said this before in this thread to someone else, but you are seriously overestimating the radius of both vortex and storm. Brood lords are already pretty big and have a decent spread by themselves if you just leave them alone. It's not difficult at all to either let them stay spread out, or manually separate them into 2 or 3 groups. I know that when they start attacking they clump up again, but they'll clump up into a line which is still perfectly fine and won't be suspect to just 1 vortex. I just tried this several times in the unit tester, with NO micro or prepositioning at all, I took 10 brood lords and moved them over a short distance to attack a single nexus. Then I vortexed the middle of the brood lords, and still only caught about half of them. Again, this is with NO micro on the zerg part. If the zerg put an ounce of micro into it or just attacked multiple objects like an expansion/cannon line, they would be spread out even more and vortex would catch much less. And this is still not "exposed" to blink stalkers from 1 edge either, yes I understand it's always better for the protoss to engage from the edge rather than the middle but the battle is still going to end badly for the protoss especially when the zerg is in the realm of 10-20 brood lords. No protoss ground army is going to beat that, if you're playing a protoss who is trying to beat your 20 brood lords with stalkers he's a bad protoss and if you're losing 20 brood lords to stalkers you're a bad zerg. Ok right, Broodlords are rather large and even with no micro you are only going to catch so many with the Vortex however in a 200/200 army battle what exactly is the Zerg supposed to do once however many Broodlords are caught in the Vortex [not to mention however many Roaches/Hydras/Infestors/Corruptors are caught as well]? Sure spreading units can minimize some of the damage but like what options does the Zerg have from there? Do you just retreat and abandon everything in the Vortex to die for nothing except some Mothership energy or do you keep attacking with your now less than 200 army that gets completely wrecked by the Protoss army because it's not as strong as it should be? I also do want to remind you that a Mothership can potentially cast off 2 Vortex which does take up a lot of surface area. | ||
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Nortac
United States375 Posts
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:49 Gelenn wrote: I'm not sure why you took on such an aggressive tone with this post. It really is not necessary. I appreciate reading advice from protoss players, since my ZvP is rubbish. Like I said, "spread your army" is great advice. Let me rephrase my point: spreading is great, but is is very difficult to keep an army on the move spread out. I would think any protoss trying to avoid fungals would appreciate the difficulty, at least. On a different note, let's say I see a mothership making its way toward my main, and I do have time to react. What in your opinion is the proper response? If I pull everything to the main doesn't he just attack my exposed front now? To put it another way, vortex and recall are amazing spells for controlling the battlefield and forcing favorable engagements. What are some techniques I can use to force favorable engagements of my own? I'm thinking Anihc did that because people on forums have a tendency to just counter what others say just for the sake of it without trying to take a moment to actually assess what the person means to say. Everybody know this to be true, many times we have seen people even ignore the entire post of a person and just pick one sentence to counter and argue upon. And TL awards the privilege of being a blue poster only to respected and experienced members of the community and the admins have repeatedly told people that the expect others to respect their posts and don't argue with them aggressively. I would say that if you look back to The replies to Anihc's post you will find that the posters werentt too polite themselves. Its one thing to attack the post's content and quite another to attack the poster. However not many people recognize it (and I really hope nobody takes my comment to be target at ANY single individual, Its not my intention to speak anything disrespectful towards anyone). Its one reason many pros don't respond much to The forums anymore, especially the strategy section. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:45 Nortac wrote: Is archon toilet still a major problem? I havent seen to many games decided by it, if any at all O.o Funny you should say that. Last night I was watching Destiny do practice games with Inka, every game that Inka went for a deathball with Mothership he basically wrecked Destiny every time. So then Destiny went around asking other Zerg players how they cope with the Mothership and they all basically responded with "idk, it's hard to deal with". Also, I know this doesn't mean a whole lot, but the only game in IPL that Kiwikaki managed to take a game off of Stephano involved using a Mothership. | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
Against colossus, void ray, archon, stalker, mothership I will use broodlord, infestor, corruptor, lings. Broodlords beat archons, colossus and does well against stalkers, corruptors take down voids and then can either help kill off the colossuses or kill the mothership, infestors should not waste energy on NP, they are purely for fungal which helps with DPS against stalkers along with simply preventing archons, stalkers and voidrays getting to the broodlords. If stalkers are too aggressive they will all die insanely fast to lings, broods and infestors. Without the stalkers brood and corruptor clean up everything else easily. Comparing brood lords to siege tanks is nothing remotely close to pointless when it is about whetever units with a long range can cover each other despite being split. Tanks still cover each other despite being split, you said broods couldn't if they split which is simply false. It is not hard to spread so that only a small portion of the zerg army ends up in the vortex if you do just minimal practice on it, the average pro simply havn't done that. Brood infestor corruptor ling despite quite a supply difference beats colossus void ray archon stalker mothership. Corruptors do really well against voids especially with fungal helping out, mothership is a support unit so combating corruptors with it is just silly. Zerg will win there. Stalkers lose to broods lings and fungals very badly. Archons simply won't be getting in range due to broodlords and fungals, while colossus is just dead to corruptors as well. To put it simple, any lategame army involving voidrays from a P force the Z into corruptors, that is BAD for the protoss. You basicly force him into a unit that counters your mothership and colossus. Because of how corruptors+fungal beat voidrays a lategame toss army should generally stay away from void rays. That leaves a protoss ground army+mothership against brood lord, infestor and lings. And the only way to beat that is for the stalkers to kill the broods, which requires a huge supply lead from the protoss. You can afford losing part of the zerg army as it is so strong against stalkers; Fungal keeps them away and deal great damage, lings tear through stalkers very fast, and broods in themself do great against them. Not attempting to say it is impossible for the protoss by any means, but it is in favor of the zerg. In such a 200/200 clash it will come down to positioning to a degree, and after that it is solely whetever the zerg plays worse or not. If the zerg plays well or not is out of the hands of the protoss player, so whetever he wins such a battle depends on whetever the zerg mess up. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On October 12 2011 13:30 AirbladeOrange wrote: This seems too dependent on your opponent doing what you think he will do. What happens if he starts going colossi, immortals, carriers, or something else. You can't rely on an entire composition to beat one tactic of your opponent unless it works on its own as a general strategy. This. I ONLY get mothership if I know the zerg is going BL heavy | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 13 2011 11:20 NTTemplar wrote: @Beenu Against colossus, void ray, archon, stalker, mothership I will use broodlord, infestor, corruptor, lings. Broodlords beat archons, colossus and does well against stalkers, corruptors take down voids and then can either help kill off the colossuses or kill the mothership, infestors should not waste energy on NP, they are purely for fungal which helps with DPS against stalkers along with simply preventing archons, stalkers and voidrays getting to the broodlords. If stalkers are too aggressive they will all die insanely fast to lings, broods and infestors. Without the stalkers brood and corruptor clean up everything else easily. Comparing brood lords to siege tanks is nothing remotely close to pointless when it is about whetever units with a long range can cover each other despite being split. Tanks still cover each other despite being split, you said broods couldn't if they split which is simply false. It is not hard to spread so that only a small portion of the zerg army ends up in the vortex if you do just minimal practice on it, the average pro simply havn't done that. Brood infestor corruptor ling despite quite a supply difference beats colossus void ray archon stalker mothership. Corruptors do really well against voids especially with fungal helping out, mothership is a support unit so combating corruptors with it is just silly. Zerg will win there. Stalkers lose to broods lings and fungals very badly. Archons simply won't be getting in range due to broodlords and fungals, while colossus is just dead to corruptors as well. To put it simple, any lategame army involving voidrays from a P force the Z into corruptors, that is BAD for the protoss. You basicly force him into a unit that counters your mothership and colossus. Because of how corruptors+fungal beat voidrays a lategame toss army should generally stay away from void rays. That leaves a protoss ground army+mothership against brood lord, infestor and lings. And the only way to beat that is for the stalkers to kill the broods, which requires a huge supply lead from the protoss. You can afford losing part of the zerg army as it is so strong against stalkers; Fungal keeps them away and deal great damage, lings tear through stalkers very fast, and broods in themself do great against them. Not attempting to say it is impossible for the protoss by any means, but it is in favor of the zerg. In such a 200/200 clash it will come down to positioning to a degree, and after that it is solely whetever the zerg plays worse or not. If the zerg plays well or not is out of the hands of the protoss player, so whetever he wins such a battle depends on whetever the zerg mess up. Well, aside from you taking a lot of what I said completely out of context [but thats fine I don't really care] I still massively disagree that when Vortex goes off splitting your army is going to make any difference whatsoever. A single vortex can easily capture half your army or a third of your army even and it's too much, you still get demolished. If you can actually show me a decent example of splitting your units to beat an archon toilet I'll admit you have a valid point otherwise this is just theorycrafting which I am not interested in. As it currently stands the single best solution to defeating the archon toilet is by throwing enough banelings into the toilet to instantly kill all of the archons. | ||
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Banchan
United States179 Posts
When doing this IMO it is important to bring/spread at least 4-5 overseers since a mothership can simply cloak all the protoss units after vortex wears off, meaning without detection zerg must time the manual baneling detonation perfectly (almost impossible) in order to pull off a win. | ||
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