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[D] Terran DROPS - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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VassiliZaytsev
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada45 Posts
October 12 2011 04:56 GMT
#21
On October 12 2011 01:05 MrInocence wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 01:00 Sated wrote:
The only time I feel helpless in a PvT is when the Terran has good drop play. It feels like I need to leave 3+ Stalkers at each of my bases just to defend the possibility of further drops, only to have my main army crushed by the opponent's because those Stalkers are missing... or vice-versa. The other option would be to build cannons for defence, but those things are damn expensive compared to turrets/spine crawlers and Terran bio kills buildings pretty quickly (Marauders...)

I dunno... I just don't see how people can have trouble dropping in TvP when they drop in TvZ successfully. It seems a lot harder for Toss to defend drops since Phoenix are hardly standard in the same way Mutas are in TvZ, but I'm obviously biased. What, exactly, gives you problems dropping in TvP?

EDIT:

As for targets in PvT, you want to be aiming to take either key pylons or key tech structures. Cybernetics Core, Templar Archives, Dark Shrine etc. Taking out a Nexus is obviously a big deal, but hitting the right tech structure will set back research and prevent the opponent supplementing their army with the units they want.


The same way you feel leaving 3 stalkers hurts your main army, we feel about a medivac with 4 marauders. Being attacked right after sending out a drop midgame can sometimes be a game deciding mistake.


Except.. Pretty sure it would take like 8 stalkers to deny 4 marauders. I play Terran and even I'm pretty sure the response needed by Protoss to stop the drops is like 2-3x more severe than what the Terran spends on the drop. Negating the fact that he can just load up whenever he wants, with stim, kiting, shell and healing, drops become ridiculously effective unless a significantly bigger Protoss force is pulled to deal with them.

Especially in the bigger fights, 4 units can be way more effective taking out pylons and unpowering gateways and sniping tech than they will ever be in max supply fight. I'm sure someone famous once said that the threat of drops can be just as powerful as the drops themselves.
Big Mac
TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
October 12 2011 05:36 GMT
#22
One very key note that I saw that was left out is strategy. Sure doing drops is fun, but it better damn well integrate with your goals in the game.
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
October 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#23
On October 12 2011 13:56 VassiliZaytsev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 01:05 MrInocence wrote:
On October 12 2011 01:00 Sated wrote:
The only time I feel helpless in a PvT is when the Terran has good drop play. It feels like I need to leave 3+ Stalkers at each of my bases just to defend the possibility of further drops, only to have my main army crushed by the opponent's because those Stalkers are missing... or vice-versa. The other option would be to build cannons for defence, but those things are damn expensive compared to turrets/spine crawlers and Terran bio kills buildings pretty quickly (Marauders...)

I dunno... I just don't see how people can have trouble dropping in TvP when they drop in TvZ successfully. It seems a lot harder for Toss to defend drops since Phoenix are hardly standard in the same way Mutas are in TvZ, but I'm obviously biased. What, exactly, gives you problems dropping in TvP?

EDIT:

As for targets in PvT, you want to be aiming to take either key pylons or key tech structures. Cybernetics Core, Templar Archives, Dark Shrine etc. Taking out a Nexus is obviously a big deal, but hitting the right tech structure will set back research and prevent the opponent supplementing their army with the units they want.


The same way you feel leaving 3 stalkers hurts your main army, we feel about a medivac with 4 marauders. Being attacked right after sending out a drop midgame can sometimes be a game deciding mistake.


Except.. Pretty sure it would take like 8 stalkers to deny 4 marauders. I play Terran and even I'm pretty sure the response needed by Protoss to stop the drops is like 2-3x more severe than what the Terran spends on the drop. Negating the fact that he can just load up whenever he wants, with stim, kiting, shell and healing, drops become ridiculously effective unless a significantly bigger Protoss force is pulled to deal with them.

Especially in the bigger fights, 4 units can be way more effective taking out pylons and unpowering gateways and sniping tech than they will ever be in max supply fight. I'm sure someone famous once said that the threat of drops can be just as powerful as the drops themselves.

1 Ht + warpin of 2-3 zealots is plenty to deal with 1 dropship as hasuobs has shown again and again in his recent games. But hey thats hasuobs and most protoss just panic and warpin a round of stalkers as if its SUPPOSED to work against drops. When during warpin protoss units take like 2x damage and terran is free to focus fire protoss still wants stalkers? After the feedback units cant be healed so zealots are more effective. If the terran wants to kite 2-3 zealots around your base withstim then thats fine as well because at least they arent damaging any infrastructure and the longer they stay the more it hurts. If they lift off then their harass hasnt done anything either except misplace 1 ht and 200 mins. Considering the medvac is 100 gas and is pretty valuable in the terran army its not too bad.

When dropping protoss I find the robo and forge the most valuable targets. If you can get an upgrade advantage over protoss it can really mess with when toss can fight you. Probes are nice too but i dont like the odds of escaping from behind mineral lines on most maps.
theBOOCH
Profile Joined November 2010
United States832 Posts
October 12 2011 06:16 GMT
#24
Totally with you on this. Diamond Terran around 25-30 ish. I haven't won a game in ages (at least not a good one). I finally kind of figured out TvT, but TvP and TvZ just suck. The reality is, if you play a long macro game, you just CAN'T attack into your opponent. You just won't win. This is especially true in TvZ, but TvP as well. It DOES NOT matter how far ahead you are in economy. If you trade armies, you lose. So you have to drop drop drop. I'm working on it hardcore, but I haven't figured it out.
If all you're offering is Dos Equis, I will stay thirsty thank you very much.
justjuice
Profile Joined January 2010
New Zealand165 Posts
October 12 2011 07:00 GMT
#25
On October 12 2011 15:16 theBOOCH wrote:
Totally with you on this. Diamond Terran around 25-30 ish. I haven't won a game in ages (at least not a good one). I finally kind of figured out TvT, but TvP and TvZ just suck. The reality is, if you play a long macro game, you just CAN'T attack into your opponent. You just won't win. This is especially true in TvZ, but TvP as well. It DOES NOT matter how far ahead you are in economy. If you trade armies, you lose. So you have to drop drop drop. I'm working on it hardcore, but I haven't figured it out.

I generally don't post in the strategy forum for obvious reasons but I just wanted to comment on this just in case newbies read this and believed it.
This is absolutely NOT true. Drops help to get you ahead in some way but it is not something necessary to win the game.
It is absolutely possible to win any match up with good micro and macro and 0 drops.
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
October 12 2011 07:19 GMT
#26
--- Nuked ---
itstheTB
Profile Joined August 2011
61 Posts
October 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#27
On October 12 2011 06:58 Gros Bill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 06:39 itstheTB wrote:
you dont need to drop vs. P, you can just 1/1 or 1/1/1 all in.

... or MarineKingPrime fast expand fast ghostacademy timing push.
... or go lategame with 3+ bases and have 8+ Ghosts (and if they are dumb
and go Colossus, 10+ Vikings). Land your vikings to fight ground when Colossus dead.

Should be GG fast.

May you share a link, a replay or a vod about this MKP fast expand, fast ghost timing push please ?

Apparently I got warned because "im posting crap on this forum", yet the strategies I suggest are Korean.

You should find the MarineKing timing in some GSL match, not sure exactly which one but it was either up/down August or group play GSL October.
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
October 12 2011 08:21 GMT
#28
On October 12 2011 17:01 itstheTB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 06:58 Gros Bill wrote:
On October 12 2011 06:39 itstheTB wrote:
you dont need to drop vs. P, you can just 1/1 or 1/1/1 all in.

... or MarineKingPrime fast expand fast ghostacademy timing push.
... or go lategame with 3+ bases and have 8+ Ghosts (and if they are dumb
and go Colossus, 10+ Vikings). Land your vikings to fight ground when Colossus dead.

Should be GG fast.

May you share a link, a replay or a vod about this MKP fast expand, fast ghost timing push please ?

Apparently I got warned because "im posting crap on this forum", yet the strategies I suggest are Korean.

You should find the MarineKing timing in some GSL match, not sure exactly which one but it was either up/down August or group play GSL October.

You got warned cos we are talking about drops and when to do it/why you should do it and you pull out random builds that have nothing to do with the plays discussed and dont even make any sense "or go lategame with 3+ bases and have 8+ Ghosts"

Right . .
Cibron
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden253 Posts
October 12 2011 08:45 GMT
#29
I have no problems skipping drops vs Toss. Maybe it would help my play but I don't find it necessary unless I'm really far ahead and can afford the risk. My bio deathballs can go toe to toe against all toss armies as long as I have enough ghosts (and vikings).

Dropping Zerg on the other hand I find almost necessary. Only sensible way to get that mutablob away from my base for 15 seconds and to force lings away. Besides since zergs don't have warp ins it's easier to deal damage.

ZOMGY (¬O_o)¬ || BeastyQQ FTW!! ||
Tonem
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia91 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-12 08:54:21
October 12 2011 08:53 GMT
#30
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 12 2011 04:31 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
[image loading]
-------------
DROP Game at 9:30, on Shattered Temple. Fire team alpha (2 drop ships) comes in and does a stutter-death-path shooting whatever you deem a priority. Medivacs should heal for as long as possible, but be sure to pull them away from the maurauders once stalkers are close by. They should be gathered to the edge where your forces can be picked up after they have been cornered at Alpha-prime.

Based on Intuition, stim and move fireteam Beta into his natural, killing all his probes. If he leaves zealots and sentries behind, fight them. If he has a large chunk of his army there, you have 16 medivacs worth of units in his main. Start shooting at his units, instead of his tech. (unless there is a robo ripe for the taking.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
[image loading]
-----------------------------------------------------
Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Alpha's unload spot. His army should be very near, get 3 probes and evacuate to his main ASAP, making sure the drop ship does not die. (EMPHASIS ON ASAP, he will be warping in stalkers at his main if he has brains.). If no stalkers, kill probes at alpha prime. If he has stalkers warping in his main, kill them with Fireteam Alpha, but have the drop ship fly to evacuation point Beta. Where there should be no units at that location.

SIMULTANEOUSLY Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Beta's unload spot. Their objective is to kill pylons and to get out safely. Nothing more. Do not engage units(unless.... will go over this point soon), the medivac should be at evacuation point B' where it will be as close to the cliff as possible.

X seconds After fireteam Alpha and Beta have dropped, based on your own intuition, run in with Fireteam Gamma. You will most likely see some sentries and zealots. Unite fireteam Gamma with Beta if you think you can take them. If not, veer Fireteam Beta to rendezvous with Fireteam Alpha and do as much damage as possible before returning to evacuation point Beta.

---------------------------------
---------------------------------
[image loading]
---------------------------------
Different expansions have different vulnerabilities. The age old adage goes, never fight a losing battle, unless your opponent is losing.

---------------------------------
---------------------------------
[image loading]
---------------------------------
Different expansion layout again. This one is more sensitive to timing.
Fireteam alpha gets dropped first, to make a path towards a' and then a''.
Fireteam beta comes in when his units (red) are in the bottom right corner of his base. Go straight for the probes, then back up stutter stepping whatever pylons you can kill. Pull out with dropships at the same location you came in as.
---------------------------------


Do this for every map and you will be a god.
THEPPLsELBOW
Profile Joined November 2010
United States190 Posts
October 12 2011 15:39 GMT
#31
On October 12 2011 10:18 MrInocence wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 05:21 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
On October 12 2011 05:18 JinDesu wrote:
Multiple key things to consider -

Can you hide in your base behind bunkers and drop them while their army is out on the map?
Can you show your army at his front and drop behind to put the onus of splitting to him?

Against zerg, dropping 8 marines works wonders because a pack of stim marines in a tight spot can kill multiple times their worth in zerglings. Doing so against protoss doesn't really work, so you have to sacrifice some spots for the marauder. Sometimes I think you can't really do a single medivac drop on a toss and expect to see results like what you see in TvZ - instead, 2 is needed to get the DPS to snipe a building like the robotics or templars.

Bunkers are not needed unless his army size >>> yours. If he is in the middle of the map for whatever reason, drop everything you have on his main. Protoss cannot win base trades with collosus tech vs bio.


1. Where the hell did you get those pictures =o, made them yourself?

2. Can i include them in my original or second post?

Yes made them myself.

Go for it. Make things easier for everyone.
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
October 16 2011 03:10 GMT
#32
On October 12 2011 17:01 itstheTB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 06:58 Gros Bill wrote:
On October 12 2011 06:39 itstheTB wrote:
you dont need to drop vs. P, you can just 1/1 or 1/1/1 all in.

... or MarineKingPrime fast expand fast ghostacademy timing push.
... or go lategame with 3+ bases and have 8+ Ghosts (and if they are dumb
and go Colossus, 10+ Vikings). Land your vikings to fight ground when Colossus dead.

Should be GG fast.

May you share a link, a replay or a vod about this MKP fast expand, fast ghost timing push please ?

Apparently I got warned because "im posting crap on this forum", yet the strategies I suggest are Korean.

You should find the MarineKing timing in some GSL match, not sure exactly which one but it was either up/down August or group play GSL October.

Go back to bnet forums plox
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
October 16 2011 03:14 GMT
#33
It is absolutely possible to win any match up with good micro and macro and 0 drops.

The requirements for both go up incredibly if you dont do drops.

If your not doing drops vs Zerg you have to consider all avenues of counter attacks when you move out. You have to siege every Xel Naga Tower while macroing. It becomes much more demanding.

Send a drop out early when you know it will be safe. Do as much damage as you can but keep it alive at all costs. Use 1-2 drops to pull him out of position while you take a good position. Good positions:
- slightly defend you
- ruin his rally point
- allow you to attack many different things with small groups of marines
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
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