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I'm a (rank 3-4ish) diamond T who has finally begun to figure out Terran harassment, and how absolutely critical it is to the race. My macro game ladder win/loss vs zerg is pretty much 100% after I started using multipronged drops. My win/loss vs toss is well below 50%; I haven't won a single decent macro game vs Toss in a while (and I'm figuring out tvp drops).
This topic absolutely requires its own thread. Understanding when, where, and how to drop is what separates a good TvZ or TvP game from one where the Terran is overwhelmed.
Essentially, while playing SC2, Terran, into the lategame, your winning condition is to outmultitask your opponent by engaging in all different fronts while maneuvering your main army for (mainly) defense, or sometimes aggressive purposes.
TvZ
Small Drops against an AI that can multitask perfectly is, in most cases, very cost ineffective. But you're playing against a human. Marine drops demand attention from the Zerg, exactly the same way Mutalisks demand attention from you. The longer the threat is untreated, the more damage it will do. And, it takes less effort to initiate drop harassment than it is to defend drop harassment in TvZ. Even Grandmasters are humans, but instead of defending from one drop, they need to worry about defending multiprong drops WHILE harrassing WHILE securing more expansions WHILE positioning their army WHILE macroing. And the player who can do these things better, more often, wins the game. This is true for pros as well.
Drops TvZ force a reaction from your opponent, or else they lose an expo and 15 drones.
Drops are HIGHLY COST EFFECTIVE in TvZ.... Marines are plentiful and cheap, and Zerg cannot attack into a seigeline even if you're missing 16 marines and 2 medivacs.
TvP
Same concept, but a huge difference. Drops are much more valuable. A Zerg cannot amove into your seiged main army that's missing 16 marines and win. A Toss can. So you have to be extremely careful about your main army when your drops are doing their job. Drops usually force a poorly positioned warpin cycle, which decreases their main army force, which makes them unable to amove your smaller army and win.
I haven't completely figured out tvp drops yet, I need some help here. LOOK BELOW FOR SOME REALLY GOOD TVP DROP TIPS FROM "SCARE CROW"
Thread was motivated by this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274178 , Look at Poster Scare Crow
QUOTE- Drops in TvP and TvZ are very, very different, and the reason is very simple: Protoss doesn't have Mutalisks, and cannot pick off a Medivac that's not near solid ground. A successful drop is defined differently in TvP because your Medivac is not on a one-way trip, unlike TvZ. Also, because Protoss army builds linearly like yourself instead of Zerg (which builds in bursts), you can't afford to lose drops- because that means your army is growing slower than his.
If you force him to pull his Probes, your drop is successful. If you kill off his warp in cycle before his main Stalker army arrives, your drop is successful. You want to take advantage of Protoss's lack of speed by keeping at least 2 Medivacs hidden around to drop his main and his third as often as you can. You want to scan inbetween your two drops to see how well he splits his army to deal with your drops. The one time he messes up in the splitting, you can sacrifice that drop to snipe as much as you can.
This also makes it very hard for Protoss to move against you -END QUOTE
I don't claim that my knowledge on this subject is complete. This post will be updated, edited and elongated with the info from this thread. Side note, I haven't figured out TvT drops yet :/
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Wait, so what responses do you want in this thread?
You kinda took some kind guys advice, re-worded each part into headings/intros into a thread.
Hell, even your "TvZ" section sounds like his quote, not that its too general, it just sounds really really odd...
I dont think people can really discuss game sense, drops are still around your multitasking skill too.
That, and you should be adding replays/doing the research yourself. Now that i think about it, you just made a OP without doing any research yourself.
You should go download a bunch of replays (QxC is a good player to start) and start watching his replays to plug them into your op post, create content to show then for us to discuss.
Unless you want us to do it for you?
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Sorry for the wall of text... hope people take time to read this, it's a very important topic.
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On October 12 2011 00:53 Snackysnacks wrote:
Wait, so what responses do you want in this thread?
You kinda took some kind guys advice, re-worded each part into headings/intros into a thread.
Hell, even your "TvZ" section sounds like his quote, not that its too general, it just sounds really really odd...
I dont think people can really discuss game sense, drops are still around your multitasking skill too.
1. Discuss what goal dropping achieves in each specific matchup.
2. Did I miss anything about dropping?
3. Any small micro tips? (Drop in mineral line or out of sight, best medivac pathings, etc)
And TvZ dropping is something I recently 'figured out', so that guy's advice hit home.
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I think it's also important to point out how defensive drops force Protoss to be. If he adds four cannons around his base, that's the equivalent of 4 stalkers and a zealot, which could be an entire warp-in cycle. Since he's without those units, he's forced to play back, and you're able to establish siege lines, map control, more expansions, etc.
I'm curious though--if they get Stargate tech, and get like, 4 phoenixes, those are as good as mutas in shutting down drops. In that case, would it be better to just attack with your full force from the front?
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On October 12 2011 01:00 Sated wrote:
The only time I feel helpless in a PvT is when the Terran has good drop play. It feels like I need to leave 3+ Stalkers at each of my bases just to defend the possibility of further drops, only to have my main army crushed by the opponent's because those Stalkers are missing... or vice-versa. The other option would be to build cannons for defence, but those things are damn expensive compared to turrets/spine crawlers and Terran bio kills buildings pretty quickly (Marauders...)
I dunno... I just don't see how people can have trouble dropping in TvP when they drop in TvZ successfully. It seems a lot harder for Toss to defend drops since Phoenix are hardly standard in the same way Mutas are in TvZ, but I'm obviously biased. What, exactly, gives you problems dropping in TvP?
EDIT:
As for targets in PvT, you want to be aiming to take either key pylons or key tech structures. Cybernetics Core, Templar Archives, Dark Shrine etc. Taking out a Nexus is obviously a big deal, but hitting the right tech structure will set back research and prevent the opponent supplementing their army with the units they want.
The same way you feel leaving 3 stalkers hurts your main army, we feel about a medivac with 4 marauders. Being attacked right after sending out a drop midgame can sometimes be a game deciding mistake.
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On October 12 2011 01:00 whoopingchow wrote:
I think it's also important to point out how defensive drops force Protoss to be. If he adds four cannons around his base, that's the equivalent of 4 stalkers and a zealot, which could be an entire warp-in cycle. Since he's without those units, he's forced to play back, and you're able to establish siege lines, map control, more expansions, etc.
I'm curious though--if they get Stargate tech, and get like, 4 phoenixes, those are as good as mutas in shutting down drops. In that case, would it be better to just attack with your full force from the front?
I have a feeling that TvP metagame will evolve into a flurry of small army engagements. DTs, warp prism drops, and proxy pylons will be protoss expansion denial. Marauder drops, hellion drops and hellions (starting to become popular in korea), cloak ghosts and nukes. This will prompt toss to leave HTs in base and leave some warpgates ready for action.
From that metagame, phoenixes might see a new purpose as drop deniers.
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On October 12 2011 01:09 MrInocence wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 01:00 whoopingchow wrote:
I think it's also important to point out how defensive drops force Protoss to be. If he adds four cannons around his base, that's the equivalent of 4 stalkers and a zealot, which could be an entire warp-in cycle. Since he's without those units, he's forced to play back, and you're able to establish siege lines, map control, more expansions, etc.
I'm curious though--if they get Stargate tech, and get like, 4 phoenixes, those are as good as mutas in shutting down drops. In that case, would it be better to just attack with your full force from the front?
I have a feeling that TvP metagame will evolve into a flurry of small army engagements. DTs, warp prism drops, and proxy pylons will be protoss expansion denial. Marauder drops, hellion drops and hellions (starting to become popular in korea), cloak ghosts and nukes. This will prompt toss to leave HTs in base and leave some warpgates ready for action. From that metagame, phoenixes might see a new purpose as drop deniers.
I really like what Kiwikaki did, with the 5-8 chronoboosted zealots to go out and deny expansions in his games against Stephano, but I haven't really seen it used against T (probably bc of kiting reasons...), but I definitely think it has some viability against early 2rax pushes, esp if there's a sentry too. I definitely agree that PvX (where X =/= P) is evolving to experimenting with those smaller engagements. That sort of makes me sad, because then the old Terran MMM is strong against that...
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/54m8T.jpg)
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DROP Game at 9:30, on Shattered Temple. Fire team alpha (2 drop ships) comes in and does a stutter-death-path shooting whatever you deem a priority. Medivacs should heal for as long as possible, but be sure to pull them away from the maurauders once stalkers are close by. They should be gathered to the edge where your forces can be picked up after they have been cornered at Alpha-prime.
Based on Intuition, stim and move fireteam Beta into his natural, killing all his probes. If he leaves zealots and sentries behind, fight them. If he has a large chunk of his army there, you have 16 medivacs worth of units in his main. Start shooting at his units, instead of his tech. (unless there is a robo ripe for the taking.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hCLT7.jpg)
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Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Alpha's unload spot. His army should be very near, get 3 probes and evacuate to his main ASAP, making sure the drop ship does not die. (EMPHASIS ON ASAP, he will be warping in stalkers at his main if he has brains.). If no stalkers, kill probes at alpha prime. If he has stalkers warping in his main, kill them with Fireteam Alpha, but have the drop ship fly to evacuation point Beta. Where there should be no units at that location.
SIMULTANEOUSLY Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Beta's unload spot. Their objective is to kill pylons and to get out safely. Nothing more. Do not engage units(unless.... will go over this point soon), the medivac should be at evacuation point B' where it will be as close to the cliff as possible.
X seconds After fireteam Alpha and Beta have dropped, based on your own intuition, run in with Fireteam Gamma. You will most likely see some sentries and zealots. Unite fireteam Gamma with Beta if you think you can take them. If not, veer Fireteam Beta to rendezvous with Fireteam Alpha and do as much damage as possible before returning to evacuation point Beta.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MpeQn.jpg)
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Different expansions have different vulnerabilities. The age old adage goes, never fight a losing battle, unless your opponent is losing.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eygaz.jpg)
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Different expansion layout again. This one is more sensitive to timing.
Fireteam alpha gets dropped first, to make a path towards a' and then a''.
Fireteam beta comes in when his units (red) are in the bottom right corner of his base. Go straight for the probes, then back up stutter stepping whatever pylons you can kill. Pull out with dropships at the same location you came in as.
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On October 12 2011 04:31 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
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DROP Game at 9:30, on Shattered Temple. Fire team alpha (2 drop ships) comes in and does a stutter-death-path shooting whatever you deem a priority. Medivacs should heal for as long as possible, but be sure to pull them away from the maurauders once stalkers are close by. They should be gathered to the edge where your forces can be picked up after they have been cornered at Alpha-prime.
Based on Intuition, stim and move fireteam Beta into his natural, killing all his probes. If he leaves zealots and sentries behind, fight them. If he has a large chunk of his army there, you have 16 medivacs worth of units in his main. Start shooting at his units, instead of his tech. (unless there is a robo ripe for the taking.
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Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Alpha's unload spot. His army should be very near, get 3 probes and evacuate to his main ASAP, making sure the drop ship does not die. (EMPHASIS ON ASAP, he will be warping in stalkers at his main if he has brains.). If no stalkers, kill probes at alpha prime. If he has stalkers warping in his main, kill them with Fireteam Alpha, but have the drop ship fly to evacuation point Beta. Where there should be no units at that location.
SIMULTANEOUSLY Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Beta's unload spot. Their objective is to kill pylons and to get out safely. Nothing more. Do not engage units(unless.... will go over this point soon), the medivac should be at evacuation point B' where it will be as close to the cliff as possible.
X seconds After fireteam Alpha and Beta have dropped, based on your own intuition, run in with Fireteam Gamma. You will most likely see some sentries and zealots. Unite fireteam Gamma with Beta if you think you can take them. If not, veer Fireteam Beta to rendezvous with Fireteam Alpha and do as much damage as possible before returning to evacuation point Beta.
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Different expansions have different vulnerabilities. The age old adage goes, never fight a losing battle, unless your opponent is losing.
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Different expansion layout again. This one is more sensitive to timing.
Fireteam alpha gets dropped first, to make a path towards a' and then a''.
Fireteam beta comes in when his units (red) are in the bottom right corner of his base. Go straight for the probes, then back up stutter stepping whatever pylons you can kill. Pull out with dropships at the same location you came in as.
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Awesome post is awesome.
edit: 16 Medivacs worth of units by 9:30?! Maphack! :D
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Multiple key things to consider -
Can you hide in your base behind bunkers and drop them while their army is out on the map?
Can you show your army at his front and drop behind to put the onus of splitting to him?
Against zerg, dropping 8 marines works wonders because a pack of stim marines in a tight spot can kill multiple times their worth in zerglings. Doing so against protoss doesn't really work, so you have to sacrifice some spots for the marauder. Sometimes I think you can't really do a single medivac drop on a toss and expect to see results like what you see in TvZ - instead, 2 is needed to get the DPS to snipe a building like the robotics or templars.
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On October 12 2011 05:18 JinDesu wrote:
Multiple key things to consider -
Can you hide in your base behind bunkers and drop them while their army is out on the map?
Can you show your army at his front and drop behind to put the onus of splitting to him?
Against zerg, dropping 8 marines works wonders because a pack of stim marines in a tight spot can kill multiple times their worth in zerglings. Doing so against protoss doesn't really work, so you have to sacrifice some spots for the marauder. Sometimes I think you can't really do a single medivac drop on a toss and expect to see results like what you see in TvZ - instead, 2 is needed to get the DPS to snipe a building like the robotics or templars.
Bunkers are not needed unless his army size >>> yours. If he is in the middle of the map for whatever reason, drop everything you have on his main. Protoss cannot win base trades with collosus tech vs bio.
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Well, let's complete the holy trifecta: TvT drops.
Dropping in TvT is a whole different can of worms than TvZ and TvP:
Pros:
-Terran does not have an anti-ground defense structure that can be made en masse without tying up supply (no Spine Crawler, Photon Cannon).
-Terran mounts the slowest reaction to a drop (no Warp-In, no Speedlings, no Mutalisks).
-Terran has no unit that can easily clean up a drop unless they commit similar resources to a defense (no Infestors, no High Templar).
Cons:
-Terran has the best spammable Medivac killer (Missile Turret).
-Frequently impossible to kill the expansion building itself (Planetary Fortress).
-Sensor Towers.
All this can be combined to basically one idea: use larger drops. 16+ Marines in his main is pure hell: he has to pull back a significant portion of his main army to deal with it. Mech Terrans have it worst, as even Hellions can't deal with that many stim'd Marines easily, and one Siege Tank in the main won't stop a drop of that size. Bio Terrans have it easier, but unless they stim over half their army back to fight you, they have to wait until their Medivacs arrive.
This means you want your drops to happen later than the other match-ups. In TvZ you're rushing to get in before Mutalisks, and in TvP your harass starts early and constant, before he has 8+ Gateways that can easily overwhelm a drop. A Terran set up to defend his third will never get back in time before you snipe his main Orbital if he didn't see your drop coming. And when he's running back to save his production, that's when the other two Medivacs should be dropping into his third. 16 Marines can easily take down a OC before it flees, which is a huge pick.
My personal order of focus fire in a drop: SCVs (before they are pulled away), Orbital Command, researching Tech Labs, Reactors, Supply Depots.
Note the lack of production structures on the target list: they're way too sturdy to kill efficiently (you want to eventually escape inside your Medivacs, not suicide), and a supply block makes it much harder to recover than losing a Factory, especially since a lost OC is already costing him 11 supply.
A Planetary Fortress expansion is different. You drop with 1 Medivac. Your objective is to get behind the mineral line, and Hold Position there to deny mining for as long as you can. I recommend picking up and leaving after about 20-30 seconds, as you don't have much staying power with just 8 Marines, and if you can dash before his Vikings get there, you've just successfully denied him over 200 minerals of mining with no losses.
Taking air control is recommended, but not mandatory: Vikings are not nearly fast enough to catch your drop before you unload, so long as you don't walk into his main fleet. If they're chasing you, you can always save a Medivac by dropping the Marines to shoo off the Viking. If his entire fleet is after your drop, try your best to trap him by moving your own fleet and Marines behind his fleet.
Terran Missile Turrets absolutely murder Medivacs, which is why you want to delay your first drop until you can afford to send in multiple Medivacs, so 9 times out of 10 he gets greedy and don't drop a line of Turrets around his main. Try to conceal your Medivacs as well if possible (ie. floating behind your natural so scans don't catch them).
Late-game is no time to stop with drops, as expansions are beyond huge in TvT, because Terran armies take an insane amount of resources to rebuild quickly (you'll generally favor the high food high power units to quickly get a strong army, and no amount of bank survives 4+ Thor production very long). While his main and maybe even natural are unassailable with 10+ Turrets, he cannot cover every inch of every expansion, especially since you can drop a bit further away and then run in. In these cases you want to deny as many expansions (and preferably kill them) as possible. Also, lategame, your Marines likely have attack upgrades, so 1 Medivac of 8 is sufficient for larger maps. In smaller maps, where your opponent must pin his late-game on specific expansions, drop 16, even 24 Marines. Very late-game, almost all his SCVs will be clustered at his last expansions, and if you kill all of them, not even MULEs can keep him in the game.
Here's a replay showcasing drop play, and how much your opponent has to pull to deal with a drop. I am not advocating my BO (past the reaper, FE, 3 rax I was winging it based on what I know of my opponent's situation), but I wanted to show just how hard it is for someone to defend more than 2 bases in a TvT if he doesn't have a wall of Missile Turrets, and how quickly you can destroy expansions:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14223
PS: I am open to critique as well! If you have a different view on how drops should happen, etc. I'd love to hear them!
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you dont need to drop vs. P, you can just 1/1 or 1/1/1 all in.
... or MarineKingPrime fast expand fast ghostacademy timing push.
... or go lategame with 3+ bases and have 8+ Ghosts (and if they are dumb
and go Colossus, 10+ Vikings). Land your vikings to fight ground when Colossus dead.
Should be GG fast.
User was warned for this post
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On October 12 2011 06:39 itstheTB wrote:
you dont need to drop vs. P, you can just 1/1 or 1/1/1 all in.
... or MarineKingPrime fast expand fast ghostacademy timing push.
... or go lategame with 3+ bases and have 8+ Ghosts (and if they are dumb
and go Colossus, 10+ Vikings). Land your vikings to fight ground when Colossus dead.
Should be GG fast.
May you share a link, a replay or a vod about this MKP fast expand, fast ghost timing push please ?
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I would not be suprised if this thread was called Pride's Drop harras technique!
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On October 12 2011 05:21 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:18 JinDesu wrote:
Multiple key things to consider -
Can you hide in your base behind bunkers and drop them while their army is out on the map?
Can you show your army at his front and drop behind to put the onus of splitting to him?
Against zerg, dropping 8 marines works wonders because a pack of stim marines in a tight spot can kill multiple times their worth in zerglings. Doing so against protoss doesn't really work, so you have to sacrifice some spots for the marauder. Sometimes I think you can't really do a single medivac drop on a toss and expect to see results like what you see in TvZ - instead, 2 is needed to get the DPS to snipe a building like the robotics or templars. Bunkers are not needed unless his army size >>> yours. If he is in the middle of the map for whatever reason, drop everything you have on his main. Protoss cannot win base trades with collosus tech vs bio.
1. Where the hell did you get those pictures =o, made them yourself?
2. Can i include them in my original or second post?
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On October 12 2011 04:31 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +------------- DROP Game at 9:30, on Shattered Temple. Fire team alpha (2 drop ships) comes in and does a stutter-death-path shooting whatever you deem a priority. Medivacs should heal for as long as possible, but be sure to pull them away from the maurauders once stalkers are close by. They should be gathered to the edge where your forces can be picked up after they have been cornered at Alpha-prime. Based on Intuition, stim and move fireteam Beta into his natural, killing all his probes. If he leaves zealots and sentries behind, fight them. If he has a large chunk of his army there, you have 16 medivacs worth of units in his main. Start shooting at his units, instead of his tech. (unless there is a robo ripe for the taking. ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Alpha's unload spot. His army should be very near, get 3 probes and evacuate to his main ASAP, making sure the drop ship does not die. (EMPHASIS ON ASAP, he will be warping in stalkers at his main if he has brains.). If no stalkers, kill probes at alpha prime. If he has stalkers warping in his main, kill them with Fireteam Alpha, but have the drop ship fly to evacuation point Beta. Where there should be no units at that location. SIMULTANEOUSLY Drop 1 Medivac worth of units at Fireteam Beta's unload spot. Their objective is to kill pylons and to get out safely. Nothing more. Do not engage units(unless.... will go over this point soon), the medivac should be at evacuation point B' where it will be as close to the cliff as possible. X seconds After fireteam Alpha and Beta have dropped, based on your own intuition, run in with Fireteam Gamma. You will most likely see some sentries and zealots. Unite fireteam Gamma with Beta if you think you can take them. If not, veer Fireteam Beta to rendezvous with Fireteam Alpha and do as much damage as possible before returning to evacuation point Beta. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Different expansions have different vulnerabilities. The age old adage goes, never fight a losing battle, unless your opponent is losing. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Different expansion layout again. This one is more sensitive to timing. Fireteam alpha gets dropped first, to make a path towards a' and then a''. Fireteam beta comes in when his units (red) are in the bottom right corner of his base. Go straight for the probes, then back up stutter stepping whatever pylons you can kill. Pull out with dropships at the same location you came in as. ---------------------------------
A post of this caliber could only come from one named after The Rock's move.
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In TvP: Double drop his main(marines)/third(maruaders) to try and kill the third or force a cancel. Slightly stagger them so he sees the one in the main first. Keep the one in the main alive, its just a distraction. Load up a third dropship(marauders) after this, use 1 dropship as a distraction then try to snipe his forges with the 2 other dropships. If you get his third and the forges, you win. If you dont get the forges and lose the drops hes probably gonna come kill you now so make sure you think ahead for that.
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EPT
