The most frequent thing you can read on these forums is “Macro Better”, and for good reason. Your “Macro”, your ability to manage your economy and production will greatly outweigh all the other factors in your game until the highest of levels. So we should “Macro Better”, but as the benevolent day[9] teaches us, stating a problem isn’t the same as stating a solution. We’ve all told ourselves “I shouldn’t miss injections” and “I shouldn’t supply block myself”, but we still do it. The following is my solution to the problem of zerg macro. It has made my play faster, better, and much more fun, not to mention taking my maxing times from around 18 minutes to a flat 14.
The Problem: Missed injection, supply blocks, unused larvae. All leading to weak macro.
The Solution: Synchronizing all macro actions to larvae spawn cycle.
Larvae spawn is the lion share of zerg’s production and occurs optimally in 40 second synced cycles over all your hatches. It is the heart beat of the swarm. What I’ve done is construct my entire macro cycle in synchronization with this cycle, this synchronizes optimally with the combined time of the natural hatchery larvae production and an overlords builds time, and somewhat less optimally with creep spreading. With some minor memorization it also allows synchronization of tech buildings with larvae spawn.
Prepping for the cycle: 1. Bind single hatchery to hotkey [4] (Preferably not your soon to be lair) 2. Bind all hatcheries to hotkey [5] 3. Bind all queens to hotkey [6] 4. Set mouse-4 as backspace 5. Set mouse-5 as camera location 6. Constantly single tap [4] as you play
*Obviously you can use different specific hotkeys; these are simply the ones I prefer.
The reason we bind the single hatchery to [4] is so that when we single tap it we will see the single hatch info screen, WHICH HAS A HUGE BAR FOR LARAVE SPAWN TIMING. This is our timeline; our entire cycle must be executed within this time. The only problem with this is that a hatch that is researching, upgrading or making a queen will show that timer instead, you should pick the hatch you don’t intend to upgrade to lair as your timer. In case both your hatches are busy, you can bind a single queen to [4] and use its energy as a counter, thou this is much less graphically convenient then a hatch.
Executing the cycle:
Cycle v.2 in response to comments (more strict focus on macro and the core principals) + Show Spoiler +
Timer Resets >> 1. Inject all your hatches (I use 6 to select all queens then cycle hatches with mouse-4) 2. Make units with your larvae (8 larvae from the spawn) 3. Spread creep (I use ctrl+mouse-5 to set camera to my creep tumors then go mouse-5, select all tumors, spread, reset camera ) 4. Decide whether your next cycle will be of 1 supply per larvae units (Lings/Drones) or 2 supply units (Everything else but Ultralisks, at which point your supply is probably maxed anyway). 5. Make Overlords (Your hatches natural larvae creation will now provide you with larvae at a perfect timing; you should now make overlords in accordance to your decision in the previous step. If you’re going for 1supply units – 1 overlord per two hatches; 2 supply units – 1 overlord per hatch. With 2 bases and a macro hatch it becomes either an alternating 1-2-1-2-… for 1 supply units or a 2-3-2-3-… for 2 supply units) making the overlords separately from units also means you can give them a dedicated rally point with ease. 6. Create an additional hatch (20/40) if applicable. Hatch will be in sync with the cycle. 7. Start making a new queen (30/40) if applicable. Queen will be in sync with the cycle. *. Tap [4] occasionally to see how the timer progresses. Timer Resets >>
Timer Resets >> 1. Inject all your hatches (I use 6 to select all queens then cycle hatches with mouse-4) 2. Make units with all your larvae (8 larvae from the spawn) 3. Make Overlords (Your hatches natural larvae creation will now provide you with larvae at a perfect timing. If you’re going for lings or drones – 1 overlord per two hatches; any other units – 1 overlord per hatch. *. Tap [4] occasionally to see how the timer progresses. Timer Resets >>
Timer Resets >> 1. Inject all your hatches (I use 6 to select all queens then cycle hatches with mouse-4) 2. Make units with your larvae (8 larvae from the spawn) 3. Spread creep (I use ctrl+mouse-5 to set camera to my creep tumors then go mouse-5, select all tumors, spread, reset camera ) 4. Scout and think (Reposition your current overlords, send some lings around and think about what you see. You have to decide whether your next cycle will be of 1 supply per larvae units (Lings/Drones) or 2 supply units (Everything else but Ultralisks, at which point your supply is probably maxed anyway). 5. Make Overlords (Your hatches natural larvae creation will now provide you with larvae at a perfect timing; you should now make overlords in accordance to your decision in the previous step. If you’re going for 1supply units – 1 overlord per two hatches; 2 supply units – 1 overlord per hatch. With 2 bases and a macro hatch it becomes either a 1-2-1 cycle for 1 supply units or a 2-3-2 cycle for 2 supply units) 6. Build another hatchery if applicable (Best to drop the hatch on 20/40 on the timer) 7. Make a queen if you want another one (This should be timed to 30/40 on the timer – your new queen will be synchronized with the current cycle) 8. Reposition drones if required Timer Resets >>
Keeping to this cycle will not only make sure you inject on time, it will synchronize your overlord production with your larvae so you will supply cap less and help you spread creep and utilize the larvae you have. You will also have synchronized queen and be able to synch your tech buildings with available larvae.
Tech building synchronization timings to spawn larvae timer: Roach warren - 25/40 Hydralisk den - 0/40 Spire - 20/40 Infestation pit (Taking into account the research time as well) - 30/40 Ultralisk Cavern - 15/40
Hope you guys have as much fun with this as I’m having; it made playing zerg into a much more flowing and rewarding experience for me. GL HF!
okay i'll try but you can basicly also just set everysingle queen and hatch on a hotkey press em all and in 2 secs u injected 3 hatches? thats what i do and it works out fine aswell
I think that Hatchery cycling is very important to zerg macro.
However, I would like you to mention gas timings: because it is the worst thing in the world when you have all your tech timings, larve, injections, a good read on your opponent, and ONLY 100 min with 650+ gas; from to much gas to early.
On October 11 2011 19:40 dayshadow wrote: okay i'll try but you can basicly also just set everysingle queen and hatch on a hotkey press em all and in 2 secs u injected 3 hatches? thats what i do and it works out fine aswell
Sure, as long as you have an isolated hatch for the timer, your golden.
On October 11 2011 19:42 EndOfLine wrote: I think that Hatchery cycling is very important to zerg macro.
However, I would like you to mention gas timings: because it is the worst thing in the world when you have all your tech timings, larve, injections, a good read on your opponent, and ONLY 100 min with 650+ gas; from to much gas to early.
I don't think gas timings fall under the subject of this guide. This isn't strategy dependent, unlike gas timings, which are totally strategy dependent.
Very interesting I will give it a shot, but, for the most part I have my injects timed automatically, except in late game then I miss them quite a few times! This may help me during the late game.
I love how you include when to place buildings to be complete on larvae pop! Thanks for that. I think my biggest problem is making OLs on my cycles I useally just power units out, But I think this will help me stop getting capped so much.
I do have a ton of unused larvae during late game too, Thanks bro maybe this will help me get out of my 1v1 slump; about to get demoted :\.
On October 11 2011 20:45 Ataxsus wrote: This is brilliant. Do you by chance have a replay of you employing this method, just so I have a good idea of what it looks like when its done right.
Thanks, All of my replays from about the last 2 months are using this method. To be honest I'm a bit embarrassed to share them, I'm not very good. I'll look over them when I get home tonight and see if I can find one that's clean enough to upload.
This definitely makes things very smooth to execute. Ideally you time your tech and production out so that you're not wasting time by "waiting" for the right heart beat to make stuff (e.g. build order planning).
Day9 would be proud for figuring out the math
Unfortunately any time you're forced to defend from an attack (such as harass or any other situation where you're forcibly missing injects, etc.) you'll experience "arrhythmia." Here, good players will already have had this "heart beat" internalized more through instinct rather than a set in-game timer which is less vulnerable to the previously mentioned hiccups. That said, this mindset is a good place to start, I especially like your metaphor.
On October 11 2011 21:16 dicedicerevolution wrote: This definitely makes things very smooth to execute. Ideally you time your tech and production out so that you're not wasting time by "waiting" for the right heart beat to make stuff (e.g. build order planning).
Day9 would be proud for figuring out the math
Unfortunately any time you're forced to defend from an attack (such as harass or any other situation where you're forcibly missing injects, etc.) you'll experience "arrhythmia." Here, good players will already have had this "heart beat" internalized more through instinct rather than a set in-game timer which is less vulnerable to the previously mentioned hiccups. That said, this mindset is a good place to start, I especially like your metaphor.
Hi, Obviously you're gonna get intterupted, your'e also gonna make mistakes, de-sync queens, lose queens, miss overlords, forget to check [4] constantly and every other error under the sun. But you have something to come back to, a rhytem to realign to. The rythem helps you not to forget becuase your overlords spawn just as your injects do, and your first larave after you use the spawned larave from the inject come up just as you need to make overlords. It's self-reinforcing, thats actually an even stronger reminder then the visual one, overlords into larvae, larvae into overlords.
An additional advantage using the hatch as a timer instead of the queen is that once you miss an inject with a queen you won't have that easy 0-25 timer anymore. with the hatch it's either counting down, or it isn't.
Good idea, but cumbersome execution, having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking especially in the late game with a lot to do.
The idea of cycling around larva spawn is good, I use it, but you don't need to check your hatchery. Remember that your hatcheries have natural spawn larva, if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop, which is not efficient. Instead, you should constantly be producing from your natural larva to keep the larva count down, and whenever you get a surge in larva count, that tells you your inject larva came out, which is a marker for you to inject again, spread creep, etc..
This way, you can maximize your larva efficiency and not miss inject at the same time.
Also, for overlords, whenever your inject larva comes out, you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords, this should become a natural habit so that you don't need to keep track of it.
On October 12 2011 01:42 w3jjjj wrote: Good idea, but cumbersome execution, having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking especially in the late game with a lot to do.
The idea of cycling around larva spawn is good, I use it, but you don't need to check your hatchery. Remember that your hatcheries have natural spawn larva, if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop, which is not efficient. Instead, you should constantly be producing from your natural larva to keep the larva count down, and whenever you get a surge in larva count, that tells you your inject larva came out, which is a marker for you to inject again, spread creep, etc..
This way, you can maximize your larva efficiency and not miss inject at the same time.
Also, for overlords, whenever your inject larva comes out, you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords, this should become a natural habit so that you don't need to keep track of it.
I disagree.
"having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking" - I don't think a single tap every ~8 seconds is a lot of multitaking.
"if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop" - Nope, those natural larave are the ones I'm using for the overlords
"you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords" - Definitly wrong. If you create your overlords as your larave spawn you will have them before you need them. You just used all your larvae, your overlords build in 25 seconds. you now have your new overlords and a supply cap lead, but you only have as many larave as your hatchs, let's assume 2. it's better to delay the overlords to your first larave that spawns naturally after you inject as THOSE overlords will pop just as your larave does.
interesting method to focus more on the battlefied, sadly i don't have free easy to access shortcuts for that. Still should help alot of people out that have problems with the extra zerg macro mechanics.
On October 12 2011 02:37 FeyFey wrote: interesting method to focus more on the battlefied, sadly i don't have free easy to access shortcuts for that. Still should help alot of people out that have problems with the extra zerg macro mechanics.
I'm not sure I follow? do you mean the extra mouse keys? You can just use other hotkeys for that. It's just the way I do it.
The most helpful points you bring up: larva/structure timings, and spreading creep cycles. The problem I see is that usually the structures for which this is most important (spire, hydra den) come enough into the game (~9-10minutes) where it's hard to have all your injects synchronized, where as roach warren timings usually depend on when your queen is being built. I would say that a better way to time the tech structures is with gas/minerals.
The idea to set camera location to creep is interesting and worth trying; I also like that you actively move overlords as you spread creep. Combining the two tasks is helpful as they achieve a similar goal of map vision/control.
The problem I have with your cycle is that you don't include battle/harass, unless that's what you mean by step 4 (unclear in that case). I find myself missing injections, forgetting to spread creep and overlords when I'm microing mutas lings or roaches, and as a result I have to force myself to try and inject in the middle of battle. It's not hard to macro super well when you're left alone, the hard part is to do it while under pressure. That said having an outline for what your ideal macro should look like is always something good to fall back on.
But for something productive, this is very cool and a great resource! :D I think every race actually goes through this as well; it's like a mental checklist of things to look at just to improve macro.
I'm working on doing a few things like this, basically following the -refresh injects -build units -check creep spread(this needs major work!) -do other macro-y, scouty stuff(new tech buildings, new upgrades, new expansions, reposition ovies around base) -build overlords with the first "natural" larva spawned after inject bits.
I'm nowhere near good enough to sync up building or queen timers but everything else should work pretty well.
On October 12 2011 01:42 w3jjjj wrote: Good idea, but cumbersome execution, having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking especially in the late game with a lot to do.
The idea of cycling around larva spawn is good, I use it, but you don't need to check your hatchery. Remember that your hatcheries have natural spawn larva, if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop, which is not efficient. Instead, you should constantly be producing from your natural larva to keep the larva count down, and whenever you get a surge in larva count, that tells you your inject larva came out, which is a marker for you to inject again, spread creep, etc..
This way, you can maximize your larva efficiency and not miss inject at the same time.
Also, for overlords, whenever your inject larva comes out, you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords, this should become a natural habit so that you don't need to keep track of it.
I disagree.
"having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking" - I don't think a single tap every ~8 seconds is a lot of multitaking.
"if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop" - Nope, those natural larave are the ones I'm using for the overlords
"you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords" - Definitly wrong. If you create your overlords as your larave spawn you will have them before you need them. You just used all your larvae, your overlords build in 25 seconds. you now have your new overlords and a supply cap lead, but you only have as many larave as your hatchs, let's assume 2. it's better to delay the overlords to your first larave that spawns naturally after you inject as THOSE overlords will pop just as your larave does.
Time spent on thinking is a limited resource as it slows down your execution. Production cycling mechanics should be automatic with as little thinking time needed as possible, so you can save your thinking time for more strategic decisions. An example, anyone can have super high apm in the beginning by repeating useless tasks that require no thinking, its just clicking speed, but as the game progresses, one's true apm drops much lower because he has to think, and thinking takes up valuable time from execution. The more thinking time you spend on mechanics, such as a macro cycle, the less thinking time you have for making strategic decisions.
I'm not disagreeing with your idea of larva cycle, I said that's what I use, although my advice is to reduce/eliminate tasks in your cycle that requires thinking time.
The first point I raised is that you don't need to spend time to check the hatchery. The point of checking the hatchery is to see the progress of your larva inject, but I'm saying that if you just focus on keeping your larva count down, then anytime when you notice a surge in larva count, that automatically tells you your larva inject just popped. You might not think checking a hatchery involves much thinking but it does, every time you check your brain is measuring the progress of that larva spawn bar and making a decision of whether the bar is nearing its end. I guarantee it slows you down. Whenever you are producing, you brain naturally assess how many larva you are seeing, that is a task you have to do and are already doing, and it tells you the same information as checking a hatchery, making the hatchery idea a redundant task that yields no benefits.
For my second point regarding overlords, your said to use the in between larva cycle time to think about what units to make and how many overlords to make, so that you don't make too many overlords. I'm saying that making overlords is not a task that deserves any thinking time. In the early game you should have a bo ready that prevents you from making too many overlords, as resources are low at this point, but once into the mid-late game, it rarely ever hurts your game to have an extra overlord or two. I'm saying that if you mark your overlord production with a larva inject cycle, always make a couple when your inject pops, you can avoid spend any thinking time at all on overlords and use that time elsewhere, sure you might make an extra few overlords, but the benefit of not having to think about overlords ever in your game far outweighs having a couple of extra overlords flying around, plus it keeps you safe from a supply block if your opponent snipes a few overlords.
In a lot of pro games you will see a player's supply limit continues to grow even when they are exchanging a lot of units, resulting in extra supply not needed. It might seem like a waste of resource, but this is exactly what I'm talking about, production cycles are fully automatic for the pros they just don't waste time thinking about things like "oh l lost some marines so I don't need to make a depot for a while". They'll notice "oh I have extra supply now from exchanging units and not stopping depot production", then they'll chill on the depot for a short while and go back to full automatic mechanics again.
That said, as long as you are not wasting time thinking about overlords, you can mark the timing of your overlords to anything you like, so if you like to make overlords AFTER you finish an inject production cycle, and using natural larva to do so, by all means. I simply mark my overlord production to the inject cycle because it's my habit. As long as it's automatic and you don't waste time on it, it's the right way to practice.
wow w3jjjj, That was fascinating and extremely well said! I got to admit I've never taken "Think-time" into account as a resource. Fascinating perspective!
We seem to be much closer in our opinions then what I thought you ment in your previous post. I have to admit that with time I found myself looking at that single-hatch display less and less, and using the cycle of overlord-larvae-overlord-larave more. But, this was written as a guide and that was how I started and I consider an important step in the learning process. It gives you a feeling of the urgency required by your macro, as well as a feel for the timing of the spawnns.
In regrads to going over-supply I would say this should be as streamlined as any other element in the game, if people do crazy worker splits and agrue BO diffrences that come to dozens of minerals, or avoid queueing marines, then going over-supply is just as bad, and we'll both agree that nothing is worse then being supply capped.
The way I minized the thinking with the overlords is to split my production to two types ( 1supply per larave versus 2supply per larave). I don't try to count my larave and do the math, I rely on using all my avilable larave and knowing that I can either get 4 or 8 supply from each larvae spawn.
I remapped 0 to spacebar, and always keep a single hatchery on it, so I can watch larva progress by tapping spacebar. this frees up 4 for more army control groups.
OMG this is so good to me thank you very much, I try to find this type of article about zerg a lot , I am a master protoss, recently switch to random, so I try to play zerg + terran a lot on other account, I have a hard time with Production cycle and hot keying with zerg because I did not know the timing well and the race is basically about macro queen hatch and larva, terran is OK for me.
On October 12 2011 05:02 IcemanAsi wrote: In regrads to going over-supply I would say this should be as streamlined as any other element in the game, if people do crazy worker splits and agrue BO diffrences that come to dozens of minerals, or avoid queueing marines, then going over-supply is just as bad, and we'll both agree that nothing is worse then being supply capped.
I think w3jjjj's point is that over-supply usually happens after or around the 10min mark, i.e. when you can't dedicate thinking time to decide how much supply you need for your production. The point of worker splitting and early BO optimization is that the starcraft economy grows exponentially, so that perturbations (i.e. differences in economy value due to different builds/splits) from early on grow larger with time; on the contrary perturbations due to oversupply at the 10 minute mark are not going to be as significant by 10-15 minutes.
If your thinking capacity is finite, perhaps you can actually achieve better economy by doing something other than oversupply.
Of course no one wants to be wasteful with oversupply but developing the skill of dealing with it is not a priority given how well people are playing around 10-15minutes right now.
This sounds familiar to the "tick" that I heard talked about on some Day9 daily I believe. Basically all pro-gamers have a tick going on in their head where they follow a set execution of things. Such as checking supply, then you check your unit production, and then you check your macro stuff (did I mule, inject, build drones), and finally scout.
Basically works like a state machine, where you are constantly moving through different states (you'll understand if you're a computer engineer :D). This is how I macro as zerg. It works really well with the notification that larvae inject is done. Obviously you need to prioritize things efficiently. I think inject is priority number 1, then scout, then decide what to make (drones, overlord, units). Constantly cycling these states is essentially this cycle you are talking about. Hmm, maybe I'll have to go make a finite state machine that simulates this .
On a side note, I found that constantly hitting larvae inject timer makes zerg VERY OP. If you are struggling with zerg, the first thing you should do is work on nailing this timer each and every time at least into the mid game.
On October 12 2011 01:42 w3jjjj wrote: Good idea, but cumbersome execution, having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking especially in the late game with a lot to do.
The idea of cycling around larva spawn is good, I use it, but you don't need to check your hatchery. Remember that your hatcheries have natural spawn larva, if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop, which is not efficient. Instead, you should constantly be producing from your natural larva to keep the larva count down, and whenever you get a surge in larva count, that tells you your inject larva came out, which is a marker for you to inject again, spread creep, etc..
This way, you can maximize your larva efficiency and not miss inject at the same time.
Also, for overlords, whenever your inject larva comes out, you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords, this should become a natural habit so that you don't need to keep track of it.
I disagree.
"having to check that single hatchery takes a lot of multitasking" - I don't think a single tap every ~8 seconds is a lot of multitaking.
"if you wait for a full larva cycle then you have natural larva sitting around waiting for the inject larva to pop" - Nope, those natural larave are the ones I'm using for the overlords
"you should always begin a production cycle with a couple of overlords" - Definitly wrong. If you create your overlords as your larave spawn you will have them before you need them. You just used all your larvae, your overlords build in 25 seconds. you now have your new overlords and a supply cap lead, but you only have as many larave as your hatchs, let's assume 2. it's better to delay the overlords to your first larave that spawns naturally after you inject as THOSE overlords will pop just as your larave does.
Time spent on thinking is a limited resource as it slows down your execution. Production cycling mechanics should be automatic with as little thinking time needed as possible, so you can save your thinking time for more strategic decisions. An example, anyone can have super high apm in the beginning by repeating useless tasks that require no thinking, its just clicking speed, but as the game progresses, one's true apm drops much lower because he has to think, and thinking takes up valuable time from execution. The more thinking time you spend on mechanics, such as a macro cycle, the less thinking time you have for making strategic decisions.
I'm not disagreeing with your idea of larva cycle, I said that's what I use, although my advice is to reduce/eliminate tasks in your cycle that requires thinking time.
The first point I raised is that you don't need to spend time to check the hatchery. The point of checking the hatchery is to see the progress of your larva inject, but I'm saying that if you just focus on keeping your larva count down, then anytime when you notice a surge in larva count, that automatically tells you your larva inject just popped. You might not think checking a hatchery involves much thinking but it does, every time you check your brain is measuring the progress of that larva spawn bar and making a decision of whether the bar is nearing its end. I guarantee it slows you down. Whenever you are producing, you brain naturally assess how many larva you are seeing, that is a task you have to do and are already doing, and it tells you the same information as checking a hatchery, making the hatchery idea a redundant task that yields no benefits.
For my second point regarding overlords, your said to use the in between larva cycle time to think about what units to make and how many overlords to make, so that you don't make too many overlords. I'm saying that making overlords is not a task that deserves any thinking time. In the early game you should have a bo ready that prevents you from making too many overlords, as resources are low at this point, but once into the mid-late game, it rarely ever hurts your game to have an extra overlord or two. I'm saying that if you mark your overlord production with a larva inject cycle, always make a couple when your inject pops, you can avoid spend any thinking time at all on overlords and use that time elsewhere, sure you might make an extra few overlords, but the benefit of not having to think about overlords ever in your game far outweighs having a couple of extra overlords flying around, plus it keeps you safe from a supply block if your opponent snipes a few overlords.
In a lot of pro games you will see a player's supply limit continues to grow even when they are exchanging a lot of units, resulting in extra supply not needed. It might seem like a waste of resource, but this is exactly what I'm talking about, production cycles are fully automatic for the pros they just don't waste time thinking about things like "oh l lost some marines so I don't need to make a depot for a while". They'll notice "oh I have extra supply now from exchanging units and not stopping depot production", then they'll chill on the depot for a short while and go back to full automatic mechanics again.
That said, as long as you are not wasting time thinking about overlords, you can mark the timing of your overlords to anything you like, so if you like to make overlords AFTER you finish an inject production cycle, and using natural larva to do so, by all means. I simply mark my overlord production to the inject cycle because it's my habit. As long as it's automatic and you don't waste time on it, it's the right way to practice.
The only problem I have with all of this is that 'tapping' to check the progress of certain timers is a common action that pros do. It's fundamental mechanic. So to call it a waste of "thinking time" is flat out wrong.
That said, you could tap your hatchery key (5, in this case) and simply look at the larva counts, or your method, constantly attempt to use your larva, so you notice when the larva swell occurs as soon as an inject is done. You're actually carrying out the same action as tapping 4, you're just using a different method.
Counting larva is a great method, and the one I personally use. But, one of the benefits of checking a single hatch (assuming your injects are synced*) is that you can see when an inject is ABOUT to pop, which could be helpful at some specific points in the game. For example, if your units are near the enemy base, or you know you're near your opponent's army, knowing the inject is in 5-10 seconds could allow you to back your units to a safe point, hit the inject, and go back about your business, whereas knowing the inject just FINISHED might happen just as you need to respond to your opponent's nearby army.
Awesome guide, though I'm not agreeing with the specific hotkeys. Like you said though, that's more player-specific. I use my middle mouse button as my backspace key personally, with all queens on ` and hatcheries on f1. My spacebar is my single hatch. Mouse 3 for me is Show Last Message, so that I can quickly snap to "Our Forces are under attack" and other messages. Still, really cool guide.
On October 12 2011 05:56 Nemireck wrote: That said, you could tap your hatchery key (5, in this case) and simply look at the larva counts, or your method, constantly attempt to use your larva, so you notice when the larva swell occurs as soon as an inject is done. You're actually carrying out the same action as tapping 4, you're just using a different method.
Producing from your larva should be done constantly regardless of whether you use any timers. In contrast, checking a hatchery is an extra action on top of producing from larva, therefore it is not another method, it is simply redundant. There is no need to actively count your larva. When you produce constantly from natural larva, its only gonna be a few larva at a time, so whenever you have a larva surge from inject finishing, your brain will "feel" the difference. I use "feel" because I don't ever "count" the amount of larva, may be there's a better way to describe it, but producing from 3 larva "feels" different from producing from 12, I don't know if I had 12 or 13 or 14 larva, I just "feel" that I have made more stuff and therefore an inject must have finished, so I should begin a new cycle.
I use tapping to check on upgrades and buildings in construction, such as a spire, but not for larva inject because from producing stuff I already have the timer in my head, I don't need another tapping action to tell me that my inject has finished. You say pros use tapping, of course they do, but are you sure they use it for larva cycles? Like using a hatchery to check larva spawn? If they do I've never heard of it.
I think your valid point is that checking the hatchery allows you to know beforehand that an inject is about to finish, but I still believe that such knowledge is not worth the extra thinking time spent. As for your example, if you are about to attack an opponent, you are trying to hit a timing, (may be it's to hit before a tech unit comes out, or simply catching a window where the opponent's army is out of position), therefore you should never back off and delay the attack just to do a production cycle... your attack gets delayed a few seconds, some more enemy units finish, their main army gets closer to defend, etc... A major action like attacking should take priority over things like larva inject and creep spread, delaying a few injects is much better than to miss an attack timing and/or to lose a lot of units. That said, you don't really need to shift your attention from the battle to inject larva or produce units. It's a lot of multitasking but that's what separates the pros from the noobs. Pros are producing units even during an engagement. That's why I don't think knowing beforehand when an inject is about to finish is that valuable, certainly not worth the thinking time spent on checking a hatchery.
I have to either get a new keyboard or get use to using 5 and 6 as hatches with 6 being my single hatch, but my 6 feels..too far. Im too used to 4 being all of my queens, I been told from my friends that i have pretty good injections.
On October 12 2011 05:56 Nemireck wrote: That said, you could tap your hatchery key (5, in this case) and simply look at the larva counts, or your method, constantly attempt to use your larva, so you notice when the larva swell occurs as soon as an inject is done. You're actually carrying out the same action as tapping 4, you're just using a different method.
Producing from your larva should be done constantly regardless of whether you use any timers. In contrast, checking a hatchery is an extra action on top of producing from larva, therefore it is not another method, it is simply redundant. There is no need to actively count your larva. When you produce constantly from natural larva, its only gonna be a few larva at a time, so whenever you have a larva surge from inject finishing, your brain will "feel" the difference. I use "feel" because I don't ever "count" the amount of larva, may be there's a better way to describe it, but producing from 3 larva "feels" different from producing from 12, I don't know if I had 12 or 13 or 14 larva, I just "feel" that I have made more stuff and therefore an inject must have finished, so I should begin a new cycle.
It "feels" like more larva because your brain is capable of doing an instant count that tells you it was "more than 3 that time". Counting your larva and "feeling" that it's more larva is exactly the same thing, you're griping on a technicality of semantics.
And yes, pros use tapping to stay on top of their injects. Many pros don't hotkey their queens, they hotkey their individual hatcheries instead and tap them regularly, when an inject is ready, they 55, box queen, inject. Others work off larva counts like we do, but if, for instance, they have a maxed army, you still see them tapping their hatcheries even with no units to make, and a player like Idra, who uses the All Hatcheries on 4, individual queens on 5/6/7 (interestingly, he never makes more than 3 queens, or at least didn't at IEM), will check his hatch key regularly when his army is maxed, I assume to keep an eye on larva counts on his hatcheries and hit his injects. (by the way, his setup not allowing for individual hatchery tapping may be one of the reasons he often misses late-game injects).
I'm going to try this, although my concern with stuff like this is that whenever I pick up a useful tip/method and start practicing it my overskill just crashes down. For example, I tried to switch from my "all hatches/all queens" hotkey setup to the more elegant Idra-like setup, and I managed to demote myself from Plat to Gold in literally no time at all. Had I not switched back to the hotkey scheme I grew comfortable with, I think I had a great chance to end up in Silver.
I have some practical questions however: 1) If my natural larva is OL larva, what do I do with the leftover natural larva? You (the OP) said that I should build 1 OL if I plan to build 1-sup units, or 2 OL if I playn 2-sup units.. but wouldn't I be leftover with a few larva which would "desynchronize" this cycle?
2) What about the Zerg general principle of having "spare" supply mid-game if you can afford it, just in case you failed to scout and get hit by a nasty timing push? Or any other time when you either get supply-blocked or have surplus supply? Should you stick with the cycle or should you skip the OL-producing phase?
I think devoting 2 keys to hatches is a bit redundant. Just having your F2 Hotkey over your main should be enough at a quick glance how much time your larvae respawn timer is at and frees up hotkeys.
I am just wondering : how much time does it take to implement in your play? Cause I feel it would be kind of painful to get used to it (not perfectly, but at least having something functional) . More precisely, when do you manage to do it without focusing your thought on it?
For instance, I know changing hotkeys took me about a week or so to become natural again... so what about this cycle order?
I use the hot-keying an extra hatch thing to check larvae spawn. But my hotkey set up and injections methods are different.
I bind all hatches to 1. Extra hatch to 2. All my queens to 3. Hotkey backspace to `.
Creep spreading queen to 4. Units to 5 and 6.
So what i do throughout the game is tab 5 tab 2; constantly alternating between extra hatch and units. And to inject i use the backspace method; only diff is a bind backspace to `. ( Press 3 + V + hold shift(let go V) + press ` with middle finger)
with spreading creep i just double tap my creeep spreading queen.
And i dont think tabbing the extra hatch is troublesome at all. Its just like terran players tabbing their production buildings to check if there are any not producing.
As for Overlord. 1 overlord for every hatch i have. unless its roaches on 2 bases then i'll make 3-4 OLs.
And from all the numerous hotkey changes i underwent, good way to relearn hotkey setups is to unbind the old hotkeys that u still use out of habit. so when u press them ingame nothing will happen haha
The method I use is I just hit space for the camera to center on any hatch to check for larvae spawn, then hit double "3" (in my case) for centering back to my army.
Thus, I circumvent the upgrading / building queen thing. Your method isn't quite as helpful in the first 7 minutes of the game or so, when scouting and doing things on the map with your sccouts / units is most importtant.
On October 12 2011 18:01 baba44713 wrote: I'm going to try this, although my concern with stuff like this is that whenever I pick up a useful tip/method and start practicing it my overskill just crashes down. For example, I tried to switch from my "all hatches/all queens" hotkey setup to the more elegant Idra-like setup, and I managed to demote myself from Plat to Gold in literally no time at all. Had I not switched back to the hotkey scheme I grew comfortable with, I think I had a great chance to end up in Silver.
I have some practical questions however: 1) If my natural larva is OL larva, what do I do with the leftover natural larva? You (the OP) said that I should build 1 OL if I plan to build 1-sup units, or 2 OL if I playn 2-sup units.. but wouldn't I be leftover with a few larva which would "desynchronize" this cycle?
2) What about the Zerg general principle of having "spare" supply mid-game if you can afford it, just in case you failed to scout and get hit by a nasty timing push? Or any other time when you either get supply-blocked or have surplus supply? Should you stick with the cycle or should you skip the OL-producing phase?
1) Yes. In theory the additional larvae in a consistent 2hatch 1supply/per larave production will eventually force you to make an additional overlord in on of the cycles. However, in the real game, you lose consistent supply to building construction and losing scouting units. This seems to balance it out in practice. Even if that doesn't happen you don't desynchronize the cycle, you just need to add an additional overlord once every few cycles ( 1- 1 - 1 - 2 sort of thing)
2) "Spare" supply means you must also have "Spare" larvae and "Spare" resources. None of these seem to be optimal. Not sure what exactly you mean with this.
This is just a helping cycle to manage your macro, it doesn't replace having to react to the game, obviously if you had a 200/200 army and traded and now you're 100/200 - don't make overlords. Seems obvious.
On October 12 2011 12:38 Nemireck wrote: And yes, pros use tapping to stay on top of their injects. Many pros don't hotkey their queens, they hotkey their individual hatcheries instead and tap them regularly, when an inject is ready, they 55, box queen, inject. Others work off larva counts like we do, but if, for instance, they have a maxed army, you still see them tapping their hatcheries even with no units to make, and a player like Idra, who uses the All Hatcheries on 4, individual queens on 5/6/7 (interestingly, he never makes more than 3 queens, or at least didn't at IEM), will check his hatch key regularly when his army is maxed, I assume to keep an eye on larva counts on his hatcheries and hit his injects. (by the way, his setup not allowing for individual hatchery tapping may be one of the reasons he often misses late-game injects).
Thanks, there is always room to learn from the pros, although Idra doesn't do it is not adding much weight, seeing he's one of the better pros.. Anyway, do you know specifically which pros do it and if there's a stream available? I'll definitely check it out.
This was definitely an interesting read and I will consider invorporating this in my play. I do have some concern with your OL management though. An inject cycle is 40s, and natural larvae time is 15s. Add to this 25s (unsure about this, but I think that this was your nummer ) for the OL and it looks very tight. Unless you build the OL right as the larva appears it seems like you will be supply blocked as the inject spawns. This means you can't spend the popping larva, and furthermore delays the next natural larva spawn since you have unspent inject larva, which delays the next OL leading to a negative spiral.
Is this something you have found to be a problem or is it just a matter of getting into the rythm of not missing the overlords?
On October 13 2011 03:08 Mitosis. wrote: This was definitely an interesting read and I will consider invorporating this in my play. I do have some concern with your OL management though. An inject cycle is 40s, and natural larvae time is 15s. Add to this 25s (unsure about this, but I think that this was your nummer ) for the OL and it looks very tight. Unless you build the OL right as the larva appears it seems like you will be supply blocked as the inject spawns. This means you can't spend the popping larva, and furthermore delays the next natural larva spawn since you have unspent inject larva, which delays the next OL leading to a negative spiral.
Is this something you have found to be a problem or is it just a matter of getting into the rythm of not missing the overlords?
Too be honest the problem never came up, maybe I'm not fast enough :D
Take into accout that it takes about half a second for the larvae to hit the ground, that queens can inject only about a second after the spawn happens and other natural delays and it just never seems to be an issue for me.
On October 12 2011 12:38 Nemireck wrote: And yes, pros use tapping to stay on top of their injects. Many pros don't hotkey their queens, they hotkey their individual hatcheries instead and tap them regularly, when an inject is ready, they 55, box queen, inject. Others work off larva counts like we do, but if, for instance, they have a maxed army, you still see them tapping their hatcheries even with no units to make, and a player like Idra, who uses the All Hatcheries on 4, individual queens on 5/6/7 (interestingly, he never makes more than 3 queens, or at least didn't at IEM), will check his hatch key regularly when his army is maxed, I assume to keep an eye on larva counts on his hatcheries and hit his injects. (by the way, his setup not allowing for individual hatchery tapping may be one of the reasons he often misses late-game injects).
Thanks, there is always room to learn from the pros, although Idra doesn't do it is not adding much weight, seeing he's one of the better pros.. Anyway, do you know specifically which pros do it and if there's a stream available? I'll definitely check it out.
Sen, and most of the Korean pros that I've seen streaming, use the individual Hatchery hotkeys instead of queen hotkeys.
Like I said, Idra still taps, but he's tapping once maxed to keep an eye on the larva numbers, when they swell, it's time for an inject.
Nice thread which I'm sure will help a lot of people. Allow me to share my own method though: I have camera positions for every base, then I tap one of them to see if injects are due. When they are, I go 9(select all queens; I use razer naga) F2 V click, F3 V click, F4 V click etc. For creep (which is every 30 seconds rather than the ~43-45 of injects) I have an active tumor bound to 8, so when I spread I just take note of the game timer, bind the new tumor to 8 and then spread all active tumors. Ideally I do the same exactly 30 seconds later.
Another reason I like to have every base bound to a camera position is to quickly get to buildings to upgrade and to deal with drops faster. If I have a drop going on in the main i can double tap 1 to see my lings, grab some of them, F2 and right click without having to move the mouse. It's probably not much faster than moving the mouse to the minimap and clicking, but I'll take any tiny advantage I can get.
Oh and I forgot; lining up building timings with injects. The idea is nice for tight timings I would say. I do something similar in a build I have been working on vs Protoss, where instead of lining up my roach warren with inject timings, I line evo chamber, lair and roach warren up so that +1, roach speed and burrow finish at the same time. This absolutely smashes a 2 base warpgate "allin" and lets you kill him outright. If he does something else, the early lair lets you scout with an overseer quite early, and I have been thinking about going straight to hydras if I spot a robo building, cancelling burrow and maybe even roach speed. Otherwise, evo chamber AND lair are both up relatively early, so any dt and stargate play should be easy to defend.
Actually, I've always used a similar approach. I didn't like much other approaches in fact:
- looking at larva count increasing isn't always good if I sometime get slow on macro or deliberately stock larva up
- looking at queen energy isn't always good if my macro slip off a bit and I happen to have too much energy on queens.. they aren't good timers anymore
On the other hand, single hatch tapping has always been good.. but I always binded the main one, to be able to quickly morph it to lair and such.. binding a secondary one is a good idea!
What I've never thought about, instead, is the overlord timing.. usually I just produced some together with my units. On a secondary note, your overlord timing also makes it really easy to adjust waypoints each time, to avoid sending overlords to the front by mistake
Thanks for that, I couldn't figure out what the best use for my other extra button on my mouse.
A camera creep hotkey seems like a great idea! I will try it out, as I have already made one of them as a backspace and my middle mouse button is camera drag.
I've been practicing this against AI yesterday (I'm Plat btw). Well here are my findings.
Pros - my macro improved drastically, particularly my injects and creep spreading. Before I always seemed to lack larva, now I had trouble actually finding what to do with all the larva I have (and only on two base!). In fact, merely by clumsily practicing this method I was outmacroing Very Hard AI so much it was ridiculous. - there is something eerily zen in going through the motions and see your gameplay improve seemingly without trying too much. - hatch-as-timer and creep-camera-save are terrific. I think that those techniques alone can improve every Zerg's gameplay immensely, even though if they opt not to adapt the entire "cycle" thingie.
Cons - my game awareness plummeted. My scouting was worse, my strategic thinking was non-existent, my reaction time was horrible. Against AI it's not a problem, what with it being so predictable and downright moronic, but I'm pretty scared how it would look against real people who won't merely politely attack every 2 minutes. - it seems very easy to mess up a cycle if you get just a little bit late with your natural OL production, since you get inject larva but have no space to spend it. I got around this by slightly overproducing OLs in the beginning so I have more leeway, but that feels suboptimal and kinda ruins the point of the cycle.
So basically, I think this cycle is giving me Diamond-level macro while pushing my overall skill down towards Gold or Silver. I can't say I'm not enjoying this technique, I'm just unsure whether I will be able to stick with it too long, especially if I see a drastic decrease of my ladder status.
On October 14 2011 17:37 baba44713 wrote: I've been practicing this against AI yesterday (I'm Plat btw). Well here are my findings.
Pros - my macro improved drastically, particularly my injects and creep spreading. Before I always seemed to lack larva, now I had trouble actually finding what to do with all the larva I have (and only on two base!). In fact, merely by clumsily practicing this method I was outmacroing Very Hard AI so much it was ridiculous. - there is something eerily zen in going through the motions and see your gameplay improve seemingly without trying too much. - hatch-as-timer and creep-camera-save are terrific. I think that those techniques alone can improve every Zerg's gameplay immensely, even though if they opt not to adapt the entire "cycle" thingie.
Cons - my game awareness plummeted. My scouting was worse, my strategic thinking was non-existent, my reaction time was horrible. Against AI it's not a problem, what with it being so predictable and downright moronic, but I'm pretty scared how it would look against real people who won't merely politely attack every 2 minutes. - it seems very easy to mess up a cycle if you get just a little bit late with your natural OL production, since you get inject larva but have no space to spend it. I got around this by slightly overproducing OLs in the beginning so I have more leeway, but that feels suboptimal and kinda ruins the point of the cycle.
So basically, I think this cycle is giving me Diamond-level macro while pushing my overall skill down towards Gold or Silver. I can't say I'm not enjoying this technique, I'm just unsure whether I will be able to stick with it too long, especially if I see a drastic decrease of my ladder status.
You'll have to learn the technique first before you get game sense and stuff back. You cannot expect to learn this method and have it set into your brain right away.
Currently, you are still spending a lot of processing time to the new macro method, if you do this regularly, this amount of time will decrease, leaving you to focus on game awareness and other stuff.
You are thus describing something that is very logical and totally expected.
On October 11 2011 19:55 darkscream wrote: did you just fix zerg macro
Never thought of it as broken :D But this definitely fixed my macro, Like I said I went from maxing on 18+ to 14.
A flat 14 in a game or against a computer? cause i can max out at 14 if i am never attacked and i can make at 16-18 if i am attacked i bind my base camera to my middle mouse button and i dont use camera even though i should
You'll have to learn the technique first before you get game sense and stuff back. You cannot expect to learn this method and have it set into your brain right away.
Currently, you are still spending a lot of processing time to the new macro method, if you do this regularly, this amount of time will decrease, leaving you to focus on game awareness and other stuff.
You are thus describing something that is very logical and totally expected.
I understand this. However I'm now in a frame of mind that I need not only to learn this cycle, but also adapt it to my skill level, especially when it comes to OLs.
For example I love how this technique prepares OL with your natural larva, and then cashes it in with your injected larva. In theory it sounds great. In practice however, this keeps supply-blocking me since proposed step 4 of the cycle (scout and think) makes me miss the 15-sec mark which I absolutely need to hit if I want my natural OLs make room for injected larva units. Additionally, it seems to add another another layer of thinking ahead which I am unable to deal with - before I kinda conditioned myself to always build units and OLs in parallel, keeping my supply slightly ahead of requirements. This was clumsy and suboptimal, but still made it so I never really heard "We require more Overlords" message anymore. Now, thinking about how many OLs I need made it come back with the vengeance, and boy I was not happy to hear it.
TL;DR - because of my noobish Plat skills I think I'll try to stick with inject/produce/spread creep cycle, I'll stick with the hatch timer, but I'll ditch the OL-from-natural-larva bit for my good old OLs+units method. At least for now.
This is a nice guide for macroing during a calm and steady game but doing this cycle concistensly when you have to multitask, manage multiple army group and react quickly to imminent threats is really hard.
In fact I think that a good player should be able to prioritize his actions while being able to hit his injections on time during a high pressure scenario. My injects are close to perfect against the IA but late game against a good human opponent make me feel really dumb with my full energy queens, not good enough QQ.
I tried to use the in-game timer to know when to inject (adding 40 second is easy but I tend to forget to look at the timer before injecting). I have to admit that the "tapping hatch method" is easier but one big annoyement is that you loose the larvae progress bar when getting a knew queen or some upgrade. Do you have a solution regarding this issue ?
Timer Resets >> 1. Inject all your hatches (I use 6 to select all queens then cycle hatches with mouse-4) 2. Make units with your larvae (8 larvae from the spawn) 3. Spread creep (I use ctrl+mouse-5 to set camera to my creep tumors then go mouse-5, select all tumors, spread, reset camera ) 4. Scout and think (Reposition your current overlords, send some lings around and think about what you see. You have to decide whether your next cycle will be of 1 supply per larvae units (Lings/Drones) or 2 supply units (Everything else but Ultralisks, at which point your supply is probably maxed anyway). 5. Make Overlords (Your hatches natural larvae creation will now provide you with larvae at a perfect timing; you should now make overlords in accordance to your decision in the previous step. If you’re going for 1supply units – 1 overlord per two hatches; 2 supply units – 1 overlord per hatch. With 2 bases and a macro hatch it becomes either a 1-2-1 cycle for 1 supply units or a 2-3-2 cycle for 2 supply units) 6. Build another hatchery if applicable (Best to drop the hatch on 20/40 on the timer) 7. Make a queen if you want another one (This should be timed to 30/40 on the timer – your new queen will be synchronized with the current cycle) 8. Reposition drones if required Timer Resets >>
Keeping to this cycle will not only make sure you inject on time, it will synchronize your overlord production with your larvae so you will supply cap less and help you spread creep and utilize the larvae you have. You will also have synchronized queen and be able to synch your tech buildings with available larvae.
Tech building synchronization timings to spawn larvae timer: Roach warren - 25/40 Hydralisk den - 0/40 Spire - 20/40 Infestation pit (Taking into account the research time as well) - 0/40 Ultralisk Cavern - 15/40
Hope you guys have as much fun with this as I’m having; it made playing zerg into a much more flowing and rewarding experience for me. GL HF!
You'll have to learn the technique first before you get game sense and stuff back. You cannot expect to learn this method and have it set into your brain right away.
Currently, you are still spending a lot of processing time to the new macro method, if you do this regularly, this amount of time will decrease, leaving you to focus on game awareness and other stuff.
You are thus describing something that is very logical and totally expected.
I understand this. However I'm now in a frame of mind that I need not only to learn this cycle, but also adapt it to my skill level, especially when it comes to OLs.
For example I love how this technique prepares OL with your natural larva, and then cashes it in with your injected larva. In theory it sounds great. In practice however, this keeps supply-blocking me since proposed step 4 of the cycle (scout and think) makes me miss the 15-sec mark which I absolutely need to hit if I want my natural OLs make room for injected larva units. Additionally, it seems to add another another layer of thinking ahead which I am unable to deal with - before I kinda conditioned myself to always build units and OLs in parallel, keeping my supply slightly ahead of requirements. This was clumsy and suboptimal, but still made it so I never really heard "We require more Overlords" message anymore. Now, thinking about how many OLs I need made it come back with the vengeance, and boy I was not happy to hear it.
TL;DR - because of my noobish Plat skills I think I'll try to stick with inject/produce/spread creep cycle, I'll stick with the hatch timer, but I'll ditch the OL-from-natural-larva bit for my good old OLs+units method. At least for now.
Hi Baba,
I'm happy to hear you're trying this out, and I'm thrilled that it's improving your Macro!
I think your over complicating step 4 as this shouldn't be that complex a decision, it comes down to an A/B decision. You're either using the next round of larvae for 1 supply units, which are either ings or drones ( in case you should make 1 overlord per 2 hatch ) or your making 2 supply units, which is almost everything else ( 1 overlord per hatch ). You see, I think the use of natural larvae for overlords is really the heart of this process, much more important then the single hatch timer, it forces you to keep overlord production constant and the overlord hatch and resulting supply jump is a great reminder to inject and make units. thus using the larvae and so on, and so on.... I would recommend that once you get into the mid-game you make a small buffer of 1-2 overlords but no more, this will both help you with supply cap and allow you to do some more scouting, losing an overlord to gain information is cheap, getting supply capped to do the same is a problem. If I know I'm going to sacrifice some overlords to scouting I make some additional ones in the unit phase of cycle.
to answer another users question, if you also have a macro hatch then it becomes 1-2-1, that is: 1st cycle - make 1 overlord 2nd cycle - make 2 overlords ....repeat
or if you're making 2 supply units: 1st cycle - make 2 overlords 2nd cycle - make 3 overlords ....repeat
On October 11 2011 19:55 darkscream wrote: did you just fix zerg macro
Never thought of it as broken :D But this definitely fixed my macro, Like I said I went from maxing on 18+ to 14.
A flat 14 in a game or against a computer? cause i can max out at 14 if i am never attacked and i can make at 16-18 if i am attacked i bind my base camera to my middle mouse button and i dont use camera even though i should
In a game, but when the other player places light pressure or pressures incompetently. I don't know how good/bad that is compared to other players but it definitely improves for me when I execute the cycle.
On October 14 2011 23:11 houstil wrote: This is a nice guide for macroing during a calm and steady game but doing this cycle concistensly when you have to multitask, manage multiple army group and react quickly to imminent threats is really hard.
In fact I think that a good player should be able to prioritize his actions while being able to hit his injections on time during a high pressure scenario. My injects are close to perfect against the IA but late game against a good human opponent make me feel really dumb with my full energy queens, not good enough QQ.
I tried to use the in-game timer to know when to inject (adding 40 second is easy but I tend to forget to look at the timer before injecting). I have to admit that the "tapping hatch method" is easier but one big annoyement is that you loose the larvae progress bar when getting a knew queen or some upgrade. Do you have a solution regarding this issue ?
Losing the larvae bar on the hatch is in my eyes the single largest blunder by blizzard's UI team in this game, it's inexcusable! The larvae spawn is very heart of zergs play, more important then anything else. Hell, even in the project 'A' videos from gsl, when Nestea is coaching Yellow, he tells him the single most important thing is not to miss injects or you're dead. And I think the man knows a thing or two about zerg :D (I'm such a Nestea groupie it's getting ridiculous)
As for solutions: 1. Don't use your lair hatch as the timer, that upgrade takes for ever. 2. you still get a minor indication, it's this small green square top left, that means that hatch is in process. 3. A queen takes just a bit longer then the spawn, so if it's a queen you can still use the timer, sort-of.
On October 14 2011 18:36 TheGreenMachine wrote: Very nice thread! This is almost exactly how I do my cycle.
The only differences being I don't use hotkeys for my creep tumors I prefer minimap for that.
Also I don't hotkey a single hatchery but I definitely will start! That looks so useful.
Can you elaborate further/in more detail how you use the minimap for creeping? In my mind it this would require all creep tumors in a control group.... But that control group needs to be updated frequently (add freshly spawned tumors & remove old tumors w/ control & ctrl+shift clicks), or doesn't it?
How do you do this via the minimap?
On a side note: I'm mid silver league and I only recently discovered that queens don't have to spawn every single tumor, but that amazingly the tumors themselves can do that =)
You'll have to learn the technique first before you get game sense and stuff back. You cannot expect to learn this method and have it set into your brain right away.
Currently, you are still spending a lot of processing time to the new macro method, if you do this regularly, this amount of time will decrease, leaving you to focus on game awareness and other stuff.
You are thus describing something that is very logical and totally expected.
I understand this. However I'm now in a frame of mind that I need not only to learn this cycle, but also adapt it to my skill level, especially when it comes to OLs.
For example I love how this technique prepares OL with your natural larva, and then cashes it in with your injected larva. In theory it sounds great. In practice however, this keeps supply-blocking me since proposed step 4 of the cycle (scout and think) makes me miss the 15-sec mark which I absolutely need to hit if I want my natural OLs make room for injected larva units. Additionally, it seems to add another another layer of thinking ahead which I am unable to deal with - before I kinda conditioned myself to always build units and OLs in parallel, keeping my supply slightly ahead of requirements. This was clumsy and suboptimal, but still made it so I never really heard "We require more Overlords" message anymore. Now, thinking about how many OLs I need made it come back with the vengeance, and boy I was not happy to hear it.
TL;DR - because of my noobish Plat skills I think I'll try to stick with inject/produce/spread creep cycle, I'll stick with the hatch timer, but I'll ditch the OL-from-natural-larva bit for my good old OLs+units method. At least for now.
Hi Baba,
I'm happy to hear you're trying this out, and I'm thrilled that it's improving your Macro!
I think your over complicating step 4 as this shouldn't be that complex a decision, it comes down to an A/B decision. You're either using the next round of larvae for 1 supply units, which are either ings or drones ( in case you should make 1 overlord per 2 hatch ) or your making 2 supply units, which is almost everything else ( 1 overlord per hatch ). You see, I think the use of natural larvae for overlords is really the heart of this process, much more important then the single hatch timer, it forces you to keep overlord production constant and the overlord hatch and resulting supply jump is a great reminder to inject and make units. thus using the larvae and so on, and so on.... I would recommend that once you get into the mid-game you make a small buffer of 1-2 overlords but no more, this will both help you with supply cap and allow you to do some more scouting, losing an overlord to gain information is cheap, getting supply capped to do the same is a problem. If I know I'm going to sacrifice some overlords to scouting I make some additional ones in the unit phase of cycle.
to answer another users question, if you also have a macro hatch then it becomes 1-2-1, that is: 1st cycle - make 1 overlord 2nd cycle - make 2 overlords ....repeat
or if you're making 2 supply units: 1st cycle - make 2 overlords 2nd cycle - make 3 overlords ....repeat
just so i understand clearly, 1st cycle - 1 lord 2nd cycle- 2 lord 3rd cycle - 1 lord and so on..
and.. 1st- 2 lord 2nd-3 lord 3rd- 2 lord and so on...
so for one supply unit, your making a total of 4 lords per cycle, and 7 lords for 2 supply units for per cycle?
On October 15 2011 03:58 iNotZerg wrote: just so i understand clearly, 1st cycle - 1 lord 2nd cycle- 2 lord 3rd cycle - 1 lord and so on..
and.. 1st- 2 lord 2nd-3 lord 3rd- 2 lord and so on...
so for one supply unit, your making a total of 4 lords per cycle, and 7 lords for 2 supply units for per cycle?
Or you alternate between 1 lord and 2 lord.
Alternate between 1 and 2, obviously. how can you make 7 overlords at once? Why would you? I suggest you re-read the OP. You must have misunderstood somethings.
This is pretty awesome. My cycles are the same. I'll take your advise on hotkey a single hatch, it seems amazing! I also produce overlords on my off cycle, i.e. the natural larvae by hatcheries into overlords, while focusing on the larvae spawn to units
I read through it a few times to try and understand it. I guess the 1-2-1 and the 2-3-2 threw me off. Originally i thought it was for 1 supply = 2 lords = @ 1 hatch and 2 supply = 3 lords = @ 2 hatches.
On October 15 2011 12:44 TTneko wrote: My god, you are giving (obviously) new players a macro cycle to help them not stuff up any of their mechanical aspects of the game
But it's 8 steps long
Do you think bad players will remember 8 step long cycles? Do you think good players need a cycle like this? It doesn't make sense
Hmm, what's a good player? what's a bad one?
Is this guide for a new player who never played a game of starcraft? No I don't think so. Is it for the pro-gamer? Not that either, I wouldn't presume to educate them. Is it for the great majority of silver to diamond players who play and want to improve? I think so.
I'll take your comment into accout thou, I think I'll edit the OP soon with a more strict cycle that more directly highlights the importance of the "inject -> units with spawned larvae ->overlord with natural larave" which is the most important idea here. That should take it to about 4 steps, make it more accomdating for the newer players.
>>spawn larva pops and started again 1. use larva on units 2. make overlords 3. ....? 4. Profit >>end cycle
the "...?" could be anything else needed, these things are usually not part of your cycle but should be done with your spare time. All the rest that is starcraft scouting army movement ect.
or you can just play a lot of games and get a feel for how to play zerg and when to make overlords so you don't get supply blocked. You can also do this during replays by looking where you miss injects and get supply blocked so you can tell yourself the next time you are in that situation, you will remember to do it
On October 16 2011 01:45 TheGreenMachine wrote: A simpler cycle for newer plays would be
>>spawn larva pops and started again 1. use larva on units 2. make overlords 3. ....? 4. Profit >>end cycle
the "...?" could be anything else needed, these things are usually not part of your cycle but should be done with your spare time. All the rest that is starcraft scouting army movement ect.
For a newer player, I'd say overlords before units to make sure you don't overspend on units (pedantics, I know).
And before your step 3, add a specific "look at your resources and spend them" step.
Of course, I could be thinking slightly newer than you.
On October 16 2011 19:39 IcemanAsi wrote: Updated the OP with a slightly more streamlined version of the cycle as well as simplified version for new players.
On October 16 2011 19:39 IcemanAsi wrote: Updated the OP with a slightly more streamlined version of the cycle as well as simplified version for new players.
Thanks! Very nice system.
Thanks :D
I'm working on the problems and fixes sections now.The most obvious ones are:
- Not enough money to spend larvae after spawn - Losing overlords - Losing queens - Having a queen or hatch out of sync - Aligning tech timings in cycle with gas timings for popular openings
If you have anything you would want to flag as a problem that rose up when using this, let me know.
like this guide, will try to use it. One thing you could add is explain the inject method in itself, because there are many people like me who never used it (5 queen, 6 queen, 7 queen, 8 queen and double tap for me) and run into problems like:
-does not work when there is a hatch without queen, they run around -same for macro hatches, i constantly use them without queens.
I must say, the overlord between spawn cycles is a real winner for me. As a low level player who doesn't get much time to practice, it only took me a few games to really get into a better rhythm using this basic concept. I find it helps me focus less on macro while actually performing better.
Previously I'd be so focused on using up larvae, not getting supply blocked, making sure I had good drone saturation and wasn't forgetting to build an army, that I'd forget entirely about scouting or having any sort of map awareness. I was following the basic tenet that you should focus on macro, because you can win on macro alone if you've got that down. But if you don't scout and react, you'll never get the drone/army balance right.
After about half a dozen games getting used to this cycle method, I was learning to tap the hatchery, use minimap injects (an adjustment I wanted to make as backspace injects, while fast, weren't working for me) and checking supply to make overlords in between cycles. I felt myself making better decisions on tech/unit comps because more of my time was now being devoted to checking the minimap and moving my units around. Best of all this was teaching me something really important - I could focus on moving units without forgetting to macro, something which was killing me when I tried to focus on macro alone.
Last game of last night was a 4v4:
1. I did not get supply blocked once. 2. In the early stages of the game, I managed to ling scout all 4 players (buddy protoss sniped a depot and lured the marines away, it was perfect), see their tech, and respond appropriately with a full round of drones, taking extra gas, teching to spire and getting mutas. 3. I massed up 24 mutas in just a few cycles and kept my money low the whole time, and spent the next 5 minutes still macroing and taking a 3rd and 4th base while harassing and being active on the map. 4. I continued to react better to scouting information gained between cycles, getting out brood lords against a thor/tank army in a good time. 5. I scored top for resources, against a mix of diamond/plat/gold players (I'm gold league myself).
I still had 3k+ minerals at one point and dozens of unused larvae at another, but my play up to that game was usually being stuck on tier 1 or 2, massing just one unit type and not tech switching, just trying to macrostomp. I think we've all seen threads telling us that that's good practice (although they would point out that massing lings against colossus is never going to win), and perhaps that practice has helped me ease into this style without too many issues, but personally I feel like it simply left me relying on a flawed system that devoted all my concentration to macroing and left me with no time to think about army positioning, scouting, or true reactive play.
Edit:
On October 16 2011 23:53 KroN wrote: Hi,
like this guide, will try to use it. One thing you could add is explain the inject method in itself, because there are many people like me who never used it (5 queen, 6 queen, 7 queen, 8 queen and double tap for me) and run into problems like:
-does not work when there is a hatch without queen, they run around -same for macro hatches, i constantly use them without queens.
KroN
This is why I switched to minimap injects. I like all queens on 1 hotkey, and I like having queens for creep spread, not just injects, but by using minimap injects I can neglect a hatchery that I know has had its queen sniped, for instance.
like this guide, will try to use it. One thing you could add is explain the inject method in itself, because there are many people like me who never used it (5 queen, 6 queen, 7 queen, 8 queen and double tap for me) and run into problems like:
-does not work when there is a hatch without queen, they run around -same for macro hatches, i constantly use them without queens.
KroN
Hi,
I would rather not dive into that here, as there are other threads which go into the different inject method, and do so well. Suffice it to say that whatever inject method you use is irrelevant to the cycle method and is completely dependent on personal preference, as long as you can execute your injects fast enough as to not delay your use of the spawning larvae.
I still struggle with my macro once I get into the late game with about 5-6 hatches.
I'll have to give this a shot but switch backspace to something else because I only have 3 buttons.
It's hard to get used to this because It's engraved in my brain to spam 1-1 2-2 and so on for each hatch but obviously your method is much quicker. I'm workin on it!
You _must_ have 1 queen per hatch. Or your queen will just run away in the middle of the map screaming out loud "yoooouuuuhhhooooou, come kill me dudes, i like that so much !". If you don't have 1 queen per hatch, you must do injections carefully one by one, so it's slower ^^
But, IcemanAsi is right. Choose the method you like. It makes no difference for this guide.
On October 18 2011 17:00 Magus.423 wrote: This method is quicker but got some issues.
You _must_ have 1 queen per hatch. Or your queen will just run away in the middle of the map screaming out loud "yoooouuuuhhhooooou, come kill me dudes, i like that so much !". If you don't have 1 queen per hatch, you must do injections carefully one by one, so it's slower ^^
But, IcemanAsi is right. Choose the method you like. It makes no difference for this guide.
Hehe, In my mind it was always more: "I got it boss! I got it! Just....let....me.....get.....there.....God I'm out of shape, diet starts tommrow..."
I'm still struggling to keep my mind on injects, and I can see how this might be the solution. Thank you so much! (Not forgetting warpgates as Toss was so much easier...) Also, I actually signed up just to say this. Hey, TL Forums!
That sounds too complicated to me to be honest. I just do it the same way I did in BW. Hotkey each hatch separately and make shit, and if i don't see mutant larva growing I spit on it again. The only exception to this is when I'm mid/late game with lots of mana on my queen(s) and i make extra hatches near the first few and then hotkey them both on the same key and treat it like 1 hatch that I have to spit on twice.
...I didn't comment in this thread in the beginning, because i thought it was obvious that this is the way Zerg should operate. Guess im surprised this is news to some people.
Though yeah i felt that best way to get better with zerg was get a really basic macro cycle going, then just keep adding aspects to the cycle. With Zerg there's honestly always something that you could be doing.
Hi, I'm a Protoss player (high diamond) recently turned zerg. I just always watched replays of zerg and always loved their mechanics of creep etc, so i finally decided to try it - and much to my dismay it turned out I was way worse at it then Protoss.
This cycle kind of logic really helps my macro game but there is just a couple questions I have -
1) How do you get INTO the cycle in the most efficient way? (Remember we don't start with 2 queens/hatches from the get go)
2) The "create units" part doesn't really work all the time for me. A lot of times I'll create units and still have many larvae left over (not knowing which to use for overlords). Also just to clarify I'm supposed to technically make 1 overlord per 8 supply of units i create at once? (8 lings/drones in a row, THEN ovi - OR 4 roaches/hyras/etc THEN ovi ) that's my understanding anyway
If someone could help clear this up I'd be forever grateful!
1) How do you get INTO the cycle in the most efficient way? (Remember we don't start with 2 queens/hatches from the get go)
As soon as you have two queens, one should inject while the other spawns a creep tumor (in direction of your natural), since there is no way you can afford the minerals for two complete injects at such an early stage. If you time it right, they both have 25 energy again at the same time, so the next time, they can both inject at the same time.
2) The "create units" part doesn't really work all the time for me. A lot of times I'll create units and still have many larvae left over (not knowing which to use for overlords).
If you lack resources for units, it means you don't have enough mining workers. Either your bases aren't saturated, you haven't taken all your gases, or you just need to expand again Also, the overlords you need are produced from the naturally spawning larvae after the larvae from the inject are all used up (ideally) for workers or units.
On October 19 2011 20:09 statiksc2 wrote: Hi, I'm a Protoss player (high diamond) recently turned zerg. I just always watched replays of zerg and always loved their mechanics of creep etc, so i finally decided to try it - and much to my dismay it turned out I was way worse at it then Protoss.
This cycle kind of logic really helps my macro game but there is just a couple questions I have -
1) How do you get INTO the cycle in the most efficient way? (Remember we don't start with 2 queens/hatches from the get go)
2) The "create units" part doesn't really work all the time for me. A lot of times I'll create units and still have many larvae left over (not knowing which to use for overlords). Also just to clarify I'm supposed to technically make 1 overlord per 8 supply of units i create at once? (8 lings/drones in a row, THEN ovi - OR 4 roaches/hyras/etc THEN ovi ) that's my understanding anyway
If someone could help clear this up I'd be forever grateful!
At full saturation, you can max out 6 roaches per cycles (75min per unit) per hatchery. More expensive units you have to make a unit mix, 1 or 2 mutas and the rest lings, for example, or whatever combination of cycles fits your style.
You also need to build overlords so you have to consider replacing a unit in the cycle with an overlord. I prefer to start with an ovie and then make units; ensures i dont just press and hold a unit button and get stuck with supply block.
If you would start it 0/40 it would mean you'd end up at 10 seconds after the third round being finished..
130 seconds/40 = 3.25
1# 40 seconds taken before first larvae spawn (tot: 40) 2# 40 seconds taken before second larvae spawn (tot: 80) 3# 40 seconds taken before third larvae spawn (tot: 120) 4# 10 seconds into round four which leaves the possiblity that you have spended your larvae (tot: 130)
it would be wiser to start it at 30/40 to sync it
More info in spoiler for those who are confused + Show Spoiler +
Yes, the synchronization makes it a round later but let me explain why this is in harmony with timing larvae: 1. Your larvae isn't 10 seconds idle and the comparison is out of proportion because you get your larvae "earlier" at 30/40 (compared to the infestion pit) than at 0/40.
2. It doesn't matter because you don't lose any larvae starting at 30/40, the only thing that happens is that your infestion pit seems longer because it's delayed in the larvae cycle.
3. Some may argue your infestors will come 30 seconds later. Especially because you usually (personally experience) look at the bar when it's close to finished.
4. Chances exist that if you make it at 0/40 and you follow this method you can make MAX 3 infestors as you invest "orginal" larvae in overlords.
5. Infestors are a big tech investment and take 130 seconds (longest) before you can build them effectively. So if you plan to build infestors you usually plan this ahead and would look on the timer at any point of time, it wouldn't matter building them at 0 or 30 because the
So the infestion pit has to start at 30/40 and thus takes 25% of the first round and then 3 more rounds.
Unless you took 10 seconds as buffer to actually start the research but then you should edit this :D.
If you would start it 0/40 it would mean you'd end up at 10 seconds after the third round being finished..
130 seconds/40 = 3.25
1# 40 seconds taken before first larvae spawn (tot: 40) 2# 40 seconds taken before second larvae spawn (tot: 80) 3# 40 seconds taken before third larvae spawn (tot: 120) 4# 10 seconds into round four which leaves the possiblity that you have spended your larvae (tot: 130)
it would be wiser to start it at 30/40 to sync it
More info in spoiler for those who are confused + Show Spoiler +
Yes, the synchronization makes it a round later but let me explain why this is in harmony with timing larvae: 1. Your larvae isn't 10 seconds idle and the comparison is out of proportion because you get your larvae "earlier" at 30/40 (compared to the infestion pit) than at 0/40.
2. It doesn't matter because you don't lose any larvae starting at 30/40, the only thing that happens is that your infestion pit seems longer because it's delayed in the larvae cycle.
3. Some may argue your infestors will come 30 seconds later. Especially because you usually (personally experience) look at the bar when it's close to finished.
4. Chances exist that if you make it at 0/40 and you follow this method you can make MAX 3 infestors as you invest "orginal" larvae in overlords.
5. Infestors are a big tech investment and take 130 seconds (longest) before you can build them effectively. So if you plan to build infestors you usually plan this ahead and would look on the timer at any point of time, it wouldn't matter building them at 0 or 30 because the
So the infestion pit has to start at 30/40 and thus takes 25% of the first round and then 3 more rounds.
Unless you took 10 seconds as buffer to actually start the research but then you should edit this :D.
You are correct. Thanks for catching this. Correcting OP.
Amazing post. I just recently got promoted to Master's, and this may just be the thing I need to transcend to that next level.
One noob question though: I don't use a gaming mouse; just a regular old computer and a regular old mouse. I've actually been using the "W" key as my backspace for quite a while, as I don't off-race at all and really can't find a use for the key for zerg. Is this suitable?
Well thansk for that post. This really helped me find order in the somewhat chaotic mess that was my macro game. I can now better predict what I need to get to not get supply capped while keeping production going. Practicing your cycle forced me to better understand the mechanics of the race.
Very nice guide, I bookmarked it and plan on implementing it in my play.
Only thing I have to add, is shouldn't you try to stay an overlord or two ahead of what you need just incase a scouting overlord gets sniped so you don't get supply blocked.
Could somebody explain to me what is this on skype? I'm a masters terran that has switched to zerg and I really want to fully understand this method especially the overlord thing because I constantly get supply blocked in games.
How do you end up resync'ing this in the event something gets sniped? Do you just wait to clear all the injects before starting the cycle again?
Thank. Still working on refining a concept for the resync, as you can imagine it's very varied and I still haven't found an answer that's general enough as there are many ways of being thrown off. Otherwise it breaks down into either 'just handle it' or a list of 50 different situations. Neither is good enough, so basically, still working on that one.
On October 28 2011 13:25 Mokss wrote: Could somebody explain to me what is this on skype? I'm a masters terran that has switched to zerg and I really want to fully understand this method especially the overlord thing because I constantly get supply blocked in games.
Thanks
You can ask any question in the thread, I would be very happy to clarify any question.
On October 28 2011 13:25 Mokss wrote: Could somebody explain to me what is this on skype? I'm a masters terran that has switched to zerg and I really want to fully understand this method especially the overlord thing because I constantly get supply blocked in games.
Thanks
You can ask any question in the thread, I would be very happy to clarify any question.
Does this method work for people who use the "idra method"? Like hotkeying every queen.
And I really don't get the cycle part so basically I make overlords then I make units and it goes on? is that correct?
Nice guide, i was using the cycle check thing by binding one hatch but it's actually quite something to remember. I guess with this post i will practice that point especially for the next game, i didn't really realized about all those timing and your OV method is great too.
For the inject method i have to be critical against, i always find some queens wandering when you have more hatch than queens with the backspace method. I prefer to take just a little more time and be sure to inject correctly by using F1 -> F3 to create cam' position, with all my queens on 1, so 1 / F1 / V / Clic /F2 / V / Clic / F3 / V / CLic etc...and F4 is for my creep spread. It's also quite nice to have those cam to spread all your drone correctly and saturate your expend smoothly ( also for defence but i'm still pretty bad and the stress make me forget about those shortcut and i start clicking everywhere ^^ ).
Anyway thanks for that thread, really nice to share with da swarm.
On October 29 2011 03:42 Mokss wrote: A. Does this method work for people who use the "idra method"? Like hotkeying every queen.
B. And I really don't get the cycle part so basically I make overlords then I make units and it goes on? is that correct?
A. Yes, you can use whatever inject method you like and are comfortable with. just make sure you can inject all your hatches quickly.
B. This is covered by the OP but I'll try to clarify: - Your production with zerg is to a great degree dependent on your injects ( from ~60% to 100% if you're pooling larvae ) - A larvae inject takes 40 seconds. - A hatchery which goes from full larvae to no larvae will produce a new one after 15 seconds - An overlord takes 25 seconds to build. - 25 + 15 = 40
Therefore if you wait for your larvae to spawn then inject, make all the larvae you got into units then the next larvae that the hatch will 'produce' will be exactly in time to make an overlord who will spawn exactly in time with your next larvae spawn. And so on, and so on....
As long as you're using all your larvae and taking into account some supply degradation due to making buildings and losing occasional scouts. You know that you will have about 4 larvae every 40 seconds ( you will have a bit more if your'e using all your larvae ) per hatch. Considering that everything but the ultralisk is either 1 supply per larvae or 2 supply per larvae you can easily figure out how many overlords to make every cycle, 1 overlord for every 2 hatches if your making 1 supply per larvae units (lings/drones) or 1 per 1 hatch if your making 2 supply units (everything else). In practice you will have to oversupply every few cycles if you're keeping perfect use of your larvae due to the naturally occurring larvae, not to mention as security and for scouting.
On October 11 2011 19:55 darkscream wrote: did you just fix zerg macro
Never thought of it as broken :D But this definitely fixed my macro, Like I said I went from maxing on 18+ to 14.
maxing out depends on what opponent is doing :D
And also on what your'e doing. This isn't intended for pro-gamer level player, it's for the great majority of players who get supply blocked and miss injects constantly, with nothing to do with the opponent. I would say that in bronze-silver league at least most players hurt themselves with bad macro more then anything the opponent is doing to them. I believe this cycle helps with exactly that.
EPT
