On October 11 2011 04:51 Lazermonkey wrote: The most common mistake I see is people trying to engage in the mineral line. DON'T do that. You will fight 3ish drones vs 3ish zerrglings and you will lose most, if not all of your workers. Even if you surround him(and rly, if you get your lings surrounded when 6pooling you deserve to lose, there isn't really much else to be looking at...) he can just take a few steps back and avoid that easily. A much better way of engageing is to fight him in the open. Pull ALL your drones and it should be 14-15 drones vs 6 zerglings. When his reinforcements arives your pool should be complete or at least close to be complete. with your won lings + queen you can simply overproduce him.
btw, if you opened gas, make sure you take your drones off gas the second you see him 6pool. If you gathered enough for speed you should prolly delay it a bit. Once you survive it's more or less GG anyways!
Engaging in the mineral line is most optimal, most of the time. You simply try to mine as much as possible, and when he comes close, tell them to mine the furthest away patch, when they run to you, click the closest patch, if he tries to attack, then attack with insta-surround. If not, then you're buying time and it's better than in the open, and you can sneak extra mining in.
On October 11 2011 03:51 ThyHate wrote: So yeah, everyone right now is facepalming thinking "not this thread again" But I DID read most of the thread about it. I tried all the advices, I tried fighting with drones with mineral patch micro / running until the lings arrive / building spines.
Whether it's with drones pulled + 1 spine, or no drones + 2 spines, or no drones nor spine, I just lose.
All I am asking is a replay of someone defending it, when the 6 pool was scouted very late. because all the replays I find right now either don't work anymore, or the 6 pool is scooted very early.
(I always 13gas 14pool , I'm diamond rank1 playing masters)
Thanks in advance..
no offense but if you can't hold off a 6 pool with a 13g 14 pool that's quite bad. i seriously think your micro is far below average if you aren't able to hold this type of aggression off, after all it's only 6 lings and you have 14ish drones...
maybe you should try giving him some micro tips rather than bashing on how below average he is
ok, do this build instead, it rapes 6 pool, and almost any other zerg fast aggro opener out there. drone til 10, double extractor trick, 2 more drones, cancel 1 gas, save for pool, 3 in gas til 88 gas, pull drones 1 at a time so u get 100 gas, get ling speed, 3 sets of lings, then a queen, then an ovie, then more lings if they are constant ling aggro, if you can't stop a 6 pool with this build i don't know what to say.
This build is god awful. Don't use it. Sure, it beats 6pool, but you might as well advise someone to merely go 10pool every game. At least that way they'll solidly beat 6pools and hatch first.
why would you 10 pool when you could get 2 extra drones and ling speed? sure you get your pool like...10 seconds sooner, but what difference is that goingto make when you have to run across the entire map
I actually posted a first person game of me defending the 6 pool (he was random as well) AND me scouting very late.
True, he doesn't build a spine, but good positioning is key. I find vs 6 pool with no spines is to just run your drones OFF creep. Lings lose a lot of their speed off creep and can barely catch drones, while you wait for your lings / queen to pop.
VS 6 pool with spine(s) is a bit more difficult. you basically need to mine as much as you can and if you can engage his lings with a concave (or surround) then do it, but sometimes waiting and building spines of your own helps more than engaging and losing tons of drones. it really depends on your placement and on his placement of the spine. hope this helps a bit.
I usually just lure them into the mineral line and used to drone stack thingy to surround.
BUT I always wait for my lings to pop too, regardless of whether or not he is attacking the pool;
The way LeetDooD didn't panic when his spawning pool was near imminent death was how to do it. Just build all the lings you can before it goes down and if you can squeeze a queen too all the better.
Funny how you couldn't understand what I said when like 3 people repeated it verbatim =) What I'm saying is SURROUND and or DELAY until you can overwhelm.
You do surround marines with lings, right? It's exactly the same.
On October 11 2011 05:02 the p00n wrote: I have played a lot of zerg offrace and never felt like playing ZvZ, which is why I 6pooled with all drones or 7pooled every single game in zvz on ladder. There was a trend in the games I lost.
How to autowin 6 or 7pools (doesn't work vs 9pool) with 13/14 or 14/14:
1. Grab all your drones, run them outside of your base (click mineral of a base far away) 2. Wait until you have a lot of lings, send drones back, rape him
Make sure you don't lose the lings that just popped.
I think this is typically great advice.
Those advocating "drone drill" I'm convinced have never actually faced 6 pool before or have only played a really awful 6 pooler.
If you 6 pool with 14/14 or something similar and try to defend for 20-25 seconds with a drone surround, not only will you lose 5-6 drones (possibly all if its a hard 6 pool), but you likely won't kill any lings at all.
Most people when they drone drill go from opposite sides of the mineral line, and when even with high latency I don't have any trouble out-microing this because it's so easy to time.
If you drone drill at all, you have to take center close patches or adjacent patches. This alone gives you the possibility of defending a good 6 pool with a drone drill.
Your goal also needs to be not killing off all the lings, but just killing one or two at a time with surrounds while waiting for your lings. Also, don't be afraid to drone hard if you don't see reinforcements. If it's only 6 early lings, you're much better off with 17-18 drones rather than 14.
Straight 6 pool is trivial to defeat. I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said here. Just whatever you do, don't lose drones. If you have to run around, then do so. Eventually your lings will hatch and he'll have to keep his distance, and then his situation becomes more dire by the second. Don't even make a spine, just make a queen.
I don't care what anyone says, a competent spine crawler rush is hard to beat when you don't scout it. I've watched a lot of pros stream, and about the only technique they have in common is that after they lose, they accuse the other guy of being a newbie. While that could lead to lifelong psychological anguish, but doesn't solve the problem at hand.
My personal prefs, are if the spine is out on the edge of the creep out of range of mineral line, and you can't kill it before lings come, just let it complete. It can poke at my buildings for the next two minutes if it wants. When pool completes, build lings, build a spine, then a second spine in your mineral line. If he tries to move the spine forward too early a move him, and you'll damage his lings and spine, but then get out of the way. Eventually you'll have two spines, reasonable lings and a bunch of drones, just move the spines in range of his and a move, and then let the lings and spines do their jobs and you win.
But if he builds his spine right next to your hatch or in a pocket where it is in range of your mineral line, you have to kill it now. There's no alternative, if that thing gets up, you lose. Frankly I don't know how to win against that for sure. I do it once in awhile to other zergs and they only win if they scouted my pool and adjusted their build, or I majorly screw up. Sorry. I'd love to hear a better solution.
On October 11 2011 03:51 ThyHate wrote: So yeah, everyone right now is facepalming thinking "not this thread again" But I DID read most of the thread about it. I tried all the advices, I tried fighting with drones with mineral patch micro / running until the lings arrive / building spines.
Whether it's with drones pulled + 1 spine, or no drones + 2 spines, or no drones nor spine, I just lose.
All I am asking is a replay of someone defending it, when the 6 pool was scouted very late. because all the replays I find right now either don't work anymore, or the 6 pool is scooted very early.
(I always 13gas 14pool , I'm diamond rank1 playing masters)
Thanks in advance..
no offense but if you can't hold off a 6 pool with a 13g 14 pool that's quite bad. i seriously think your micro is far below average if you aren't able to hold this type of aggression off, after all it's only 6 lings and you have 14ish drones...
i would like to face ur 13/14 then he has even less minerals because he builds the gas on 13 what is very early.
i crush alot of 13 straight pools with my 7pool allin so i doubt anyone could win me with 13/14 unless its a big map and crossed posi
Here is the build I usually do if I scout an early pool:
13 pool 18 gas 17 spine (in mineral line) 16 queen 18 overlord
Delay the attack as long as you can by running your drones around the mineral patch and try to get a surround. If he had pulled drones, make sure you engage OUTSIDE the mineral line. Once queen and spine are up you are good to go.
I held an 8 pool with 6 lings, and 6 drones and 2 spines with this yesterday. I can upload the replay later if you are really interested.
Edit: This is Destiny's method he taught on stream during the summer. It works well and you can just roach ling all in after that.
On October 12 2011 01:00 lhr0909 wrote: I held an 8 pool with 6 lings, and 6 drones and 2 spines with this yesterday. I can upload the replay later if you are really interested.
Watch DRG hold it off on TL attack, that is a really good replay of exactly what to do. He even dances his zerglings before the engagement because it is that easy.
On October 12 2011 01:00 lhr0909 wrote: I held an 8 pool with 6 lings, and 6 drones and 2 spines with this yesterday. I can upload the replay later if you are really interested.
I'd like to see that. What league are you?
I'm unsurprised by it. It's a 13-pool. A 14-pool _also_ demolishes early pools - the extra dozen seconds you get lings out, plus the lack of guys wasted on gas, is really nice.
One of the (many) advantage's to Nerchio's 14pool/15gas play.
Not the best micro from both players (yes, one of them is me), but here are a few things I've learned from losing to other 6 Pools, especially when you go for 14/14 and late scout a 6 Pool
a. Take Drones off Gas ASAP b. Delay the Spine for as long as possible c. Drone drilling > Ling micro in the mineral line d. Versus a 6 Pool with Spine, getting your own Spine is the tactic that requires the least micro to pull off
In this replay I went for Spine. The point of the Spine is to allow you to make enough units to bumrush your opponent without his Lings harassing your Drone line. I was only aggressive when his Spine was repositioning. Take what you want from the replay.
If you want a better example of how to hold off a 6 Pool, there was a game in the NASL where a Zerg 7 Pooled ?Ret? on Xel Naga Caverns and brought 2 Spines, and ?Ret? killed it with superb micro
Not the best micro from both players (yes, one of them is me), but here are a few things I've learned from losing to other 6 Pools, especially when you go for 14/14 and late scout a 6 Pool
a. Take Drones off Gas ASAP b. Delay the Spine for as long as possible c. Drone drilling > Ling micro in the mineral line d. Versus a 6 Pool with Spine, getting your own Spine is the tactic that requires the least micro to pull off
In this replay I went for Spine. The point of the Spine is to allow you to make enough units to bumrush your opponent without his Lings harassing your Drone line. I was only aggressive when his Spine was repositioning. Take what you want from the replay.
If you want a better example of how to hold off a 6 Pool, there was a game in the NASL where a Zerg 7 Pooled ?Ret? on Xel Naga Caverns and brought 2 Spines, and ?Ret? killed it with superb micro
This is an absolutely perfect example of how to drone drill.
For some reason it became common from somewhere some months ago that to "drone drill" you mineral walk opposite sides of the mineral line and that's just plain awful. What you do clicking nearby close patches is absolutely perfect.
Anyone looking for how to drone drill should definitely watch that, good vid.
EPT
