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I am a low masters level player and I'm completely stumped as to how I lose these games. It starts out as a pretty standard ZvP where he opens FFE and I take a quick 3rd. I drone up and start making units once lair tech is completed.
However, at around the 11-12 minute mark he then begins his push of 5-6 Sentries 3-4 Archons and about 18-21 Chargelots with +2 attack. In combination with forcefields his army absolutely shreds mine despite the fact that I'm going the composition that is supposed to beat it.
I've looked at the replays two times each. The first replay I would say I lost simply due to making too many lings and not enough roaches. The second replay where I get matched up against him and I KNOW he's going to do the same exact build and I prepare for it and he still beats me despite the fact that the supply count is 157/200 against 113/200.
I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. I've been keeping my money low the entire time. I have the better econ and production and I've been hitting my injects fairly well.
The only thing I could come up with after watching them a 3rd time was to micro better but I honestly don't know.
This is my first time posting a help thread and I read the guidelines but I don't know how to put the download links for the replays so here's the links where I hosted them.
Game 1
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Regressor_vs_(P)AceHardware/14256
Game 2
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)AceHardware_vs_(Z)Regressor/14257
Feedback appreciated.
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Second game:
After suiciding some lings, the real engagement happened at about 12:33.
You had 22 roaches (1/0) and 8 lings (0/0).
Total value of 1850 mins and 550 gas
He had 20 zealots (2/0) , 3 archons (2/0), and 4 sentries (2/0).
Total value of 2500 mins and 1300 gas.
You engaged horribly by running your roaches right into melee range. For once on this engagement zerg has the range advantage - you do NOT want to run into his zealots and archons. After doing this, you attempt to run away.
You get chased back to your base, and again run as close to his army as you possibly can, horrible idea again.
So -
you had an inferior army with inferior upgrades and engaged poorly. There is no reason you should have won that battle.
Macro better.
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On October 09 2011 17:06 fdsdfg wrote:
Second game:
After suiciding some lings, the real engagement happened at about 12:33.
You had 22 roaches (1/0) and 8 lings (0/0).
Total value of 1850 mins and 550 gas
He had 20 zealots (2/0) , 3 archons (2/0), and 4 sentries (2/0).
Total value of 2500 mins and 1300 gas.
You engaged horribly by running your roaches right into melee range. For once on this engagement zerg has the range advantage - you do NOT want to run into his zealots and archons. After doing this, you attempt to run away.
You get chased back to your base, and again run as close to his army as you possibly can, horrible idea again.
So -
you had an inferior army with inferior upgrades and engaged poorly. There is no reason you should have won that battle.
Macro better.
I guess I'm just not getting the part where I need to macro better when I'm 40-50 supply ahead in both games.
Also how am I supposed to match a protoss in upgrades mid game? I'm really curious about how a Zerg does that against a protoss who is chronoing weapons upgrades.
The reason I ran up to him was to snipe his archons.
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In my experience (as a platinum player), this is a really counter intuitive composition to beat. I don't know why, but roaches don't seem to do too well against zealot archon, even tho it should.
I usually go banelings whenever I'm up against this. Since his army is almost 85% melee units, banes make your army really hard for him to engage.
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On October 09 2011 17:09 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 17:06 fdsdfg wrote:
Second game:
After suiciding some lings, the real engagement happened at about 12:33.
You had 22 roaches (1/0) and 8 lings (0/0).
Total value of 1850 mins and 550 gas
He had 20 zealots (2/0) , 3 archons (2/0), and 4 sentries (2/0).
Total value of 2500 mins and 1300 gas.
You engaged horribly by running your roaches right into melee range. For once on this engagement zerg has the range advantage - you do NOT want to run into his zealots and archons. After doing this, you attempt to run away.
You get chased back to your base, and again run as close to his army as you possibly can, horrible idea again.
So -
you had an inferior army with inferior upgrades and engaged poorly. There is no reason you should have won that battle.
Macro better. I guess I'm just not getting the part where I need to macro better when I'm 40-50 supply ahead in both games. Also how am I supposed to match a protoss in upgrades mid game? I'm really curious about how a Zerg does that against a protoss who is chronoing weapons upgrades. The reason I ran up to him was to snipe his archons.
Your army was 44 supply (all roaches, very supply inefficient), and his was 60 supply.
You had a lot more drones, and your queens, and a lot of roaches being built. All of these add to supply, and none of those helped in the engagement.
Macro decides how big of an army you have at any given point, and at the point he decided to attack, his army was a lot bigger than yours.
To stay closer to even with upgrades, don't let your evo chamber sit idle until 8 minutes in.
This happens to a lot of zergs, it's just a case of 'superior economy, inferior everything else'.
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The thing is, zealots are - in spite of what people might say - very cost effective. They have decent dps (1 unmicroed zealot beats 1 unmicroed roach at no upgrades) and soak a lot of damage. In addition, they are extremely potent vs lings. Archons are super potent vs ANY zerg unit, but especially zerglings due to their splash damage. And finally, sentries provide guardian shield and forcefield, reducing your ranged units damage and your mobility.
I watched only your second replay due to time pressure :p
you block his expo with a hatch. Why? Forward to the time where you cancel it; he is 1 worker ahead, has his cyber core started and his gas mining. Your economy is similar, but his tech is ahead of what it should be. Had you just gone drones, queens and expand yourself, you had been even in economy still but his tech had been worse. I have found through trial and error that blocking the protoss expo is simply not worth it.
Now to the battle itself.
1. You assumed he was doing the same thing. You didnt scout his main. Always do this.
2. Scoot'n'shoot. Zealot/archon turns ANY zerg combo to much if you just move those roaches in close and personal, and then have them fight standing still. Roach: range 4. Archon: range 4. Zealot: between archons and roaches. Abuse the fact the zealots charge in: roach volley, move back. Roach volley, move back. Roach volley, move back. You easily have the units to beat this, but you suicide the units in to melee with the zealots, letting them do all their damage, and getting trapped by forcefields.
3. You say your injects were up to speed, yet around when your army is destroyed you float 1200 mineral and 1100 gas. Macro hatch. In addition you were oversaturated in your main.
4. Hydralisks! This may sound like an odd idea since hydralisks really suck in many cases. But if you had scouted his base, seen only gateway and archon potential. What you need to do is get burrow, and get hydralisks with range. You had plenty of gas, why not exchange the 8 roaches in the back of your army that aint hitting anything due to range, with 8 hydralisks that even does better dps and will still outrange the archons? Burrow will let you evade forcefields. He had no detection. Bain forcefields and give youur 3rd base time to kick in with the high production.
5. If you're really cheeky, make baneling land mines :p
In short: your macro and unit production was decent. You have less larvae than you can spend, solve this either by injecting even better, or making more hatches. Your unit micro is not good; roaches vs zealot sentry stalker is all about getting them close this is true. But vs short range splash such as archons, you want to mimic terrans: scoot'n'shoot. And them, dont engage off creep near his base! Wait until he is at your base, with maximum possible units out for you. You should've won this game 2 hands down 
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On October 09 2011 17:14 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 17:09 sagefreke wrote:On October 09 2011 17:06 fdsdfg wrote:
Second game:
After suiciding some lings, the real engagement happened at about 12:33.
You had 22 roaches (1/0) and 8 lings (0/0).
Total value of 1850 mins and 550 gas
He had 20 zealots (2/0) , 3 archons (2/0), and 4 sentries (2/0).
Total value of 2500 mins and 1300 gas.
You engaged horribly by running your roaches right into melee range. For once on this engagement zerg has the range advantage - you do NOT want to run into his zealots and archons. After doing this, you attempt to run away.
You get chased back to your base, and again run as close to his army as you possibly can, horrible idea again.
So -
you had an inferior army with inferior upgrades and engaged poorly. There is no reason you should have won that battle.
Macro better. I guess I'm just not getting the part where I need to macro better when I'm 40-50 supply ahead in both games. Also how am I supposed to match a protoss in upgrades mid game? I'm really curious about how a Zerg does that against a protoss who is chronoing weapons upgrades. The reason I ran up to him was to snipe his archons. Your army was 44 supply (all roaches, very supply inefficient), and his was 60 supply. You had a lot more drones, and your queens, and a lot of roaches being built. All of these add to supply, and none of those helped in the engagement. Macro decides how big of an army you have at any given point, and at the point he decided to attack, his army was a lot bigger than yours. To stay closer to even with upgrades, don't let your evo chamber sit idle until 8 minutes in. This happens to a lot of zergs, it's just a case of 'superior economy, inferior everything else'.
What unit what I make against that composition besides Roaches??
Should I be starting my attack upgrades before Lair tech?
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On October 09 2011 17:19 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 17:14 fdsdfg wrote:On October 09 2011 17:09 sagefreke wrote:On October 09 2011 17:06 fdsdfg wrote:
Second game:
After suiciding some lings, the real engagement happened at about 12:33.
You had 22 roaches (1/0) and 8 lings (0/0).
Total value of 1850 mins and 550 gas
He had 20 zealots (2/0) , 3 archons (2/0), and 4 sentries (2/0).
Total value of 2500 mins and 1300 gas.
You engaged horribly by running your roaches right into melee range. For once on this engagement zerg has the range advantage - you do NOT want to run into his zealots and archons. After doing this, you attempt to run away.
You get chased back to your base, and again run as close to his army as you possibly can, horrible idea again.
So -
you had an inferior army with inferior upgrades and engaged poorly. There is no reason you should have won that battle.
Macro better. I guess I'm just not getting the part where I need to macro better when I'm 40-50 supply ahead in both games. Also how am I supposed to match a protoss in upgrades mid game? I'm really curious about how a Zerg does that against a protoss who is chronoing weapons upgrades. The reason I ran up to him was to snipe his archons. Your army was 44 supply (all roaches, very supply inefficient), and his was 60 supply. You had a lot more drones, and your queens, and a lot of roaches being built. All of these add to supply, and none of those helped in the engagement. Macro decides how big of an army you have at any given point, and at the point he decided to attack, his army was a lot bigger than yours. To stay closer to even with upgrades, don't let your evo chamber sit idle until 8 minutes in. This happens to a lot of zergs, it's just a case of 'superior economy, inferior everything else'. What unit what I make against that composition besides Roaches?? Should I be starting my attack upgrades before Lair tech?
Your composition was fine. Hydras or infestors would have been nice, but it isn't very important. What is important is that he invested a lot more money into his army than you did.
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As a Toss player, I can say from experience that mass banelings DECIMATE THE FUCK out of zeal/archon. Forget roach/ling, that's a stupid composition against this. Just make banes. Lings to clean up afterward with any leftover minerals/larvae. Preferably with OL speed/drops. GG.
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On October 09 2011 17:19 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 17:14 fdsdfg wrote:On October 09 2011 17:09 sagefreke wrote:On October 09 2011 17:06 fdsdfg wrote:
Second game:
After suiciding some lings, the real engagement happened at about 12:33.
You had 22 roaches (1/0) and 8 lings (0/0).
Total value of 1850 mins and 550 gas
He had 20 zealots (2/0) , 3 archons (2/0), and 4 sentries (2/0).
Total value of 2500 mins and 1300 gas.
You engaged horribly by running your roaches right into melee range. For once on this engagement zerg has the range advantage - you do NOT want to run into his zealots and archons. After doing this, you attempt to run away.
You get chased back to your base, and again run as close to his army as you possibly can, horrible idea again.
So -
you had an inferior army with inferior upgrades and engaged poorly. There is no reason you should have won that battle.
Macro better. I guess I'm just not getting the part where I need to macro better when I'm 40-50 supply ahead in both games. Also how am I supposed to match a protoss in upgrades mid game? I'm really curious about how a Zerg does that against a protoss who is chronoing weapons upgrades. The reason I ran up to him was to snipe his archons. Your army was 44 supply (all roaches, very supply inefficient), and his was 60 supply. You had a lot more drones, and your queens, and a lot of roaches being built. All of these add to supply, and none of those helped in the engagement. Macro decides how big of an army you have at any given point, and at the point he decided to attack, his army was a lot bigger than yours. To stay closer to even with upgrades, don't let your evo chamber sit idle until 8 minutes in. This happens to a lot of zergs, it's just a case of 'superior economy, inferior everything else'. What unit what I make against that composition besides Roaches?? Should I be starting my attack upgrades before Lair tech?
I open the same way you do vs a FFE, with roach/ling and a third base. I transition into baneling drops after though, and would have a nest up in the time that those pushes come.
I've dealt with these pushes before, and 10+ banes makes it more comical than frightening. I've seen that entire push evaporate in a second if they dare to engage, and if they don't, you have a huge lead from your 3 base income.
To repeat what another poster said, you shouldn't be running straight into his army with your roaches, you need to kite as much as possible until the zealots are dead.
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against a critical mass of zealot + charge + sentries, you could make like 2 infestors and fungle his zealots then rape it with your roachs or banelings.
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Okay so from what I'm getting from your guys' feedback so far is that:
1. Kite zealots as much as you can with roaches
2. Alternatives such as banelings, hydras or infestors would've destroyed this composition as opposed to roach/ling
Is there anything else?
When should I be getting my upgrades? I always throw down an evo around 6:30 in case I need spores for Void rays or DTs.
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Fast melee upgrades would be helpful but are not necessary. Do NOT make hydras, they get ripped to shit even worse than roaches against this. Do not make roaches. Do not waste gas on infestors. Just make banelings dude. That is literally all you need to know. MAKE BANELINGS AND WIN GG EZPZ.
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all protoss ground loses to roach/ling+baneling drops.
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banelings, lots of banelings with roach. 
he wanna charge u? go ahead.
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just make banes dont worry about the forcefields from the sentries. you have to doa couple dummies try to make him waste ffs and then engage preferrably from two sides one with banes other roaches and then gg
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My ideal composition against this is roach baneling. Roaches take less damage from the archons because of their larger footprint, and banelings obviously destroy the zealots without him being able to do much.
Burrow can also really help in this situation, helping to avoid forcefields if you grab burrow move, but more importantly (and my favourite technique for zerg)... baneling mines! Since he went early TC, he shouldnt have much in the way of robo tech, meaning no detection. If he hasn't seen burrow yet, then a line of roaches blocking a choke with 20 banelings burrow in front means if he engages you, it's GG. All the zealots will just poof, and then it's roach on archon which is a winning fight in most cases.
EDIT - that said, another huge thing that has been mentioned is kiting. There's no reason to allow those 20 zealots to do much, if any, dps. Keep backin up to kite them over baneling minefields .
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High masters here you take a fast third and end up with like 55 drones. You can seriously end up with like 75 drones ESPECIALLY if he is going a +2 attack. Mass roach with burrow would have stomped this so hard.
DRONE HARDER WHEN HE DOES A FORGE FIRST
Stop listening to people saying "oh banelings so good oh this is right oh start microing better"
Just drone much much harder in the early game in this situation and you would have been UNIT CAPPED 200/200 at the 12-13 minute mark, unit cap with mass roaches and you would crush any push
Just gg don't say stupid shit after games, just say GG and watch your replay don't let emotions get in the way of your thought process
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Banelings are one possible option, but I reckon the best option for countering this is:
1: Drone like a greedy bastard
2: Mass a fuckload of roaches with burrow
3: Just go fucking kill him
Edit: Just do what he said:
On October 09 2011 23:24 TTneko wrote:
High masters here you take a fast third and end up with like 55 drones. You can seriously end up with like 75 drones ESPECIALLY if he is going a +2 attack. Mass roach with burrow would have stomped this so hard.
DRONE HARDER WHEN HE DOES A FORGE FIRST
Stop listening to people saying "oh banelings so good oh this is right oh start microing better"
Just drone much much harder in the early game in this situation and you would have been UNIT CAPPED 200/200 at the 12-13 minute mark, unit cap with mass roaches and you would crush any push
Just gg don't say stupid shit after games, just say GG and watch your replay don't let emotions get in the way of your thought process
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Like said before, drone like a fucking mad-man, and @ the ten-minute mark when you scout the twilight-council/DT-shrine, you have to have gotten some sort of tech. Some sort of tech. If you're @ ten minutes and without infestors/mutalisks/some tech, you're dead. Roaches and lings don't cut it against zealot archon. Lings and roaches supposed to beat zealot archon? Give me a break.
Macro better. Three-four infestors with the rest roaches will roast this any day. Two fungals and GG, to be honest.
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imo you need to add hydras vs zeo archon, there dps destroys everything once they have support units like roaches
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On October 09 2011 17:42 Lakona wrote:
As a Toss player, I can say from experience that mass banelings DECIMATE THE FUCK out of zeal/archon. Forget roach/ling, that's a stupid composition against this. Just make banes. Lings to clean up afterward with any leftover minerals/larvae. Preferably with OL speed/drops. GG.
I actuly enjoy fighting bane vs zeals. I can split cost effectively on toss side even with 60-80 supply armies, it takes 5 banes to kill a zeal so if less than 3 zeals on average take bane hits or you manage to land some on archons, you win the cost effectiveness battle and roll him
It is always good to have 5-6 banes though so he cant ever blow zeal charge - or his entire army gets 1shot if he misclicks.
If you want to beat zeal/archon, spread creep well (no mobile detection mostly) and just kite him around with GREATER ARMY VALUE of speed roaches. He cant deal with it. As said earlier in the thread, being 50 supply up is irrelevant if his ARMY VALUE is higher than yours. Good luck
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On October 10 2011 02:48 peppilepew wrote:
imo you need to add hydras vs zeo archon, there dps destroys everything once they have support units like roaches
I wouldnt do this ever.
Zealots annihilate hydras 1v1, and hydras are more expensive. They cant run, either. Roaches are better simply because they are faster
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On October 10 2011 08:12 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 17:42 Lakona wrote:
As a Toss player, I can say from experience that mass banelings DECIMATE THE FUCK out of zeal/archon. Forget roach/ling, that's a stupid composition against this. Just make banes. Lings to clean up afterward with any leftover minerals/larvae. Preferably with OL speed/drops. GG. I actuly enjoy fighting bane vs zeals. I can split cost effectively on toss side even with 60-80 supply armies, it takes 5 banes to kill a zeal so if less than 3 zeals on average take bane hits or you manage to land some on archons, you win the cost effectiveness battle and roll him It is always good to have 5-6 banes though so he cant ever blow zeal charge - or his entire army gets 1shot if he misclicks. If you want to beat zeal/archon, spread creep well (no mobile detection mostly) and just kite him around with GREATER ARMY VALUE of speed roaches. He cant deal with it. As said earlier in the thread, being 50 supply up is irrelevant if his ARMY VALUE is higher than yours. Good luck
You don't want to a-move your banelings into a zealot/archon ball - you want to just move through them. This gives two advantages:
1) way more splash damage (since you're not at their front lines)
2) forces the protoss army to waste shots on banes
When both zealots and archons can effectively 2-shot zerglings, the latter is pretty important. Getting those numbers down early is really useful.
I like bane drops too, unless they have blink stalkers. Then it feels like it's never going to work properly.
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On October 09 2011 18:13 Lakona wrote:
Fast melee upgrades would be helpful but are not necessary. Do NOT make hydras, they get ripped to shit even worse than roaches against this. Do not make roaches. Do not waste gas on infestors. Just make banelings dude. That is literally all you need to know. MAKE BANELINGS AND WIN GG EZPZ.
First of all, i think burrow is really important, because if he goes templar he probably wont have an obs.
How many banes do you normally have around that time?
I would have thought Hydra made more sense.
They synergise upgrades with the roach, and have greater range than both archons and zeals.
I feel like banes are great but they can be hit and miss, whereas you have a bit more control with the hydras. If you do fend it off, you also have an army, whereas with banes you'd have to resupply.
It also means he kinda has to go robo as a followup, because HT's aren't great against roaches, and Stargate isn't ideal against Hydras. So a spire is next on the shopping list, and you should be ahead if you hold it.
I can see your point, but i'm just wondering if hydras are a bit safer. That does come down to how many banes you have though, and what upgrades you have, +1 attack effect the hits on a zealot?
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I can't believe so many people are suggesting hydras. Or even mass banelings. Wtf, please don't listen to that garbage advice. Hydras are horrible against chargelot/archon. Yes I understand that roach/hydra does more DPS than just pure roach, but the problem with hydras is that you can't retreat, you get into 1 bad situation and game is over. Roaches are much more versatile.
All you need is mass roach. If you want to be cute, add some infestors, or add some banelings, or add burrow, but really all you need is mass roach.
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to genericaly defeat the zealot archon pushes , you need roaches , lots of them.. and speed.. if the attack lasts long enough start getting a few hydras.. its key to kite zealots. and to pick some zealots when he retreats or when he is reagrouping..just walk near him and some will charge to you...kill em and go back.. always figth on creep..spine crawlers also help A LOT
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I think your missing the main point. making banes/hydra/infestor is not the answer.
The first poster had it right when he said your army was alot weaker (value wise) and you didnt micro properly.
There might be some fancy tricks or secret build that will stomp that composition, but the standard roach ling can do it as well.
You just need to step up your game, and macro better. It will help you get better faster i the long run.
In this case its better if you can win by having 10 more roaches then last game, then if you can win by sneaking in some baneling mines.
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I watched the second replay since that seems to be the most critical of the two. Theoretically, you should have won that game. You were ahead by a base, had map control, and had a huge economic lead. The BIGGEST problem I saw was your lack of an army.
When you first engaged, you had a decent amount of roaches and lings. If you knew that he was going for zealot/archon, why would you get lings after the initial few that are needed for map control and retaking your natural? That was a waste of larva. Those could have been more roaches, which you so desperately needed.
While your injects seemed fine, you just couldn't remax fast enough. A macro hatch or two would have definitely change the outcome. By the time he reached your base, you were floating close to 1000 minerals and 1000 gas. Obviously you were spending as much as you could, but you simply did not have the larva to allow you to spend your money when you needed it.
His upgrades did not really matter. You simply couldn't produce units quick enough.
One other minor thing that could have helped was burrow (and perhaps burrow movement). He had no detection, and the threat of burrow could have either stalled 'til you could get reinforcements, or make him retreat until he got an observer, which would have given you enough time to get infestors ready.
Anything else you could have done would have been iffy. Banelings might have helped, but if there are enough sentries, FFs completely nullify them.
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Engage as close to his side of the map as possible and kite back, good creep spread helps too, since both zealots and archons have less range than roaches you can hit him the whole way to your base while you create units that will be effective, this can also sometimes slow down the push a little as they may miss some warp ins and such.
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EPT
