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Hello everyone, i wanted to ask you for some advice, because this unit composition is really causing some trouble to me. Zerg opens with Speedlings, while i go for a FFE, then transitions into Mutas. First thing is, how do i scout them? I feel like Hallucination and Observers come too late, if you go for a FFE. Anyway, i scouted it when the Spire was 90% complete, what do i do now? Stargates would come waaay too late, yes, Phoenix are very strong vs Mutas, but i just wouldnt get out enough of them, So i turtle up with cannons and have Stalkers in my mineral lines, until i get Archons. He still keeps doing damage, there's always something to snipe for Mutas. With the Archons, i wanted to take the gold, when around 30 Roaches just crushed everything i had, Mutas came to clean up the rest of it.
My question is, what counters both Mutas AND Roaches? Not much, i believe; Mutas get countered by Archons and Storm, when in big numbers, maybe Blinkstalkers but i always feel like you need AoE damage to counter Mutas, because otherwise he can just contain you, have complete map control, take 10 expos and build a ton of stuff, because i cant move out.
Problem now is, that Archons and Storm are not the best way to go vs Roaches, especially when Zerg can macro up while you are under pressure.
Roaches get countered by Immortals and Void Rays, which both are pretty bad against Mutas. When i turtle really hard, which i guess always is a bad idea, Broodlords own me while Zerg is on 6 Bases. My abilities to harass the opponent is limited as well, because he has complete map control, things like drops will just be shut down immediately.
And yes, i know, i could go for an all-in push when i see the Mutas, but that's not what i want to do, because i want to get better 
Btw im in high dia on EU, if that's important, but i don't think so.
Please help me guys, i lost 5 games today against this style and i cant figure out how to counter it. Thanks a lot and sorry for my bad grammar!
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You defend muta with blink stalkers and some cannons while you tech to storm. salkers with templar support deal very well with roaches. On some maps you can take early 3rd, but if you havent taken it before mutas were out it would be hard to secure it. Also, try to scout better. If you suspect mutas you can 6-7 gate and win.
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Hi Shark.
I am by no means an expert but I have had similar problems in the past. I find that if there is a build im weak against I force them to go down a different build. Day9 covered a build that I thought might be off use to you.
here is a link: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-356-p1-controlling-game-flow-5618434
A less helpful tip switch to Terran and just build thors and 1a. :D
Hope I helped
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On October 11 2011 02:19 gejfsyd wrote: You defend muta with blink stalkers and some cannons while you tech to storm. salkers with templar support deal very well with roaches. On some maps you can take early 3rd, but if you havent taken it before mutas were out it would be hard to secure it. Also, try to scout better. If you suspect mutas you can 6-7 gate and win.
How can i possibly suspect Mutas? And with a FFE, i cant just go for a 6gate all-in and hope that it's gonna work, because i just can't scout Mutas in time...
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Do you have any replays? It could just be inferior multitasking to the Zerg which lead to him just having a much larger army. Blink Stalkers with fast Attack upgrades should kill both Muta and Roach provided you're not being seriously out-macro'd. Roaches win against Blink Stalker only with Infestor support, which is obviously not possible if he went Muta.
You could also be getting your Robo late, or not being active with your units, or not actively looking for a third/poking the front with a Probe. These are all possible, but I don't think I can provide anything more specific than "scout better, macro better, upgrade faster, have more army, control well, don't overmake Cannons" if I don't see any of the games.
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Well, i didn't really want a replay anylasis, i just wanted to know how to theoratically counter this build, i know i don't play amazing, i simply want you guys to tell me what you would do, thing is, when i go mass Blink Stalker, Every time i move out is an all-in, right? Because he wrecks my mineral line with Mutas then, and when i leave Stalkers behind, my army becomes too small. But thanks a lot anyways, i guess i will try to scout faster and go for either Blink into Storm or Phoenix, if i get to scout it reaaally early.
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Mass blink stalkers can do well against both units, and a few cannons (3-5) per mining base can do an excellent job of scaring off mutas. It's not perfect, but it's your best bet.
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ill talk straight up. i am high master zerg. if you have trouble with this unit, this is really awkward, because both of the units use soo much gas. so there cant be soo much of them on the early game. if you do somekind of timig push, or if you can harras him a bit, it would be enough so much. otherwise, if you make some blink stalkers then transition into archons, would be more then enough gl hf
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Sometimes even after muta's are out warp prisms will provide you an opportunity to pull his muta flock away to defend the air outside his third and try to find your prism. Using this you can know where they are and if there be Muta then there shouldn't be enough roaches to be a problem. Assuming macro being equal my theoretical counter to this composition is as follows. 1 robo worth of low tech units, this means getting enough obs out that you'll always know when the flock is coming. prisms to buy time, attempt snipes -queens-, and in general show aggression around the map to control the expos until muta's. get yourself blink and move towards templar . Use zoning cannons, not cannons in your mineral line. Use an Archon as the cannon in the minneral line, this means muta's will fly over some cannons to get to the sweet stuff only to find the meanest bright blue SOB on the map. Often the cannon shots soften a few enough that your archon racks up kills not just scaring away. Cannons early game sentries at your wall off hold of the roaches early later your obs tell you it's okay to have your stalkers at your ramp because you can see no muta's, when you do FF the ramp and go hunting. 3rd secure composition 2parts blink stalker 1 part immortal-dash of sentries(if they die make them again gaurdian shield only gets better) and a number of high stormlars following but also left in your base somewhere. Props to Geiko for convincing me of this - go all attack upgrades because you're never going to be fighting the mutalisks straight up. they're in and out so you need each shot off to count. and your units won't be down in their armor anyway. hope it helps
Edit - spelling
TL/DR: obs to see muta's coming, stay ahead on attack ups, transition to immortal backbone army after templar tech, use archons in your mineral line.
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My first bit of advice would be to not FFE, personally I think it's just an all-around bad way to play because you're literally stuck in the dark for a very long time. If you do some type of gateway expand you will more easily be able to afford some form of scouting. If you can scout and pick up on the Zerg going for Mutalisks then I would suggest just working into a Blink Stalker army with HT and Archons, if you go for this type of composition while fending off the Zerg from doing too much harassment you can force him to not make a lot of Mutalisks and then you will be able to work Robo tech into your composition.
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Post a replay or we can't help worth shit.
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On October 11 2011 04:56 s1eger wrote:ill talk straight up. i am high master zerg. if you have trouble with this unit, this is really awkward, because both of the units use soo much gas. so there cant be soo much of them on the early game. if you do somekind of timig push, or if you can harras him a bit, it would be enough so much. otherwise, if you make some blink stalkers then transition into archons, would be more then enough  gl hf
Are roaches really gas intensive...? They cost 25, half of a stalker lol. Plus contrary to popular belief, speedroaches are quite cost efficient against blink stalkers with a few upgrades, plus you can 1a and macro where toss has to use 300APM blink micro to not lose.
To the OP, mass blink stalkers is probably STILL your best bet though. Make sure you have 2-3 observers around the map to spot the mutas BEFORE they get to your mineral lines, and make sure you find the dual pronged attack before it hits. Something that people really don't tell you is the fact that even if it involves killing a gateway or pylon, make sure you can be mobile inbetween your bases. Your early game sim-citying will be a pain in the ass when mutas attack you, so it might actually be worth the 150 mineral sacrifice to get to the spot 2 seconds faster and stop 3 more probes from dying from a single volley. The good thing for you is the fact that the mutas dont get the same upgrades as the roaches, so a straight up fight SHOULD be good for you if you manage to stay alive and get to 2/0 or 3/0 upgrades yourself.
Other than that, you have to realize that going straight to high templars with storm + archons costs more gas than mutalisks lol. Instead of rushing to this tech, I'd advise taking a third base, sim citying the entrance so roaches cant bum rape it, and make more gates, more blink stalkers, and SENTRIES. Yes, they will delay your tech, but not only does guardian shield work wonders vs. mutalisks, forcefield is the only thing making your units cost effective vs. mass roaches.
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A strong 6-7 gate +2 timing push around the 10 minute mark will kill any zerg trying to go to muta's. Other than that, go mass blink stalkers / 2-3 collossus deathball can handle the roaches and muta's quite well.
Storm is an alternative also. It really comes down to macro also however. If you have 20 stalkers and go up against 30 muta's, of course the muta's will demolish, however that's also 3000 gas vs 1000 gas, so it's to be expected. Stalkers are cost effective vs muta's, you don't need AoE to deal with them.
2-3 cannons at each mineral line will also make it uneconomical for muta's to try and harrass them.
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