On October 09 2011 17:42 Lakona wrote:
As a Toss player, I can say from experience that mass banelings DECIMATE THE FUCK out of zeal/archon. Forget roach/ling, that's a stupid composition against this. Just make banes. Lings to clean up afterward with any leftover minerals/larvae. Preferably with OL speed/drops. GG.

I actuly enjoy fighting bane vs zeals. I can split cost effectively on toss side even with 60-80 supply armies, it takes 5 banes to kill a zeal so if less than 3 zeals on average take bane hits or you manage to land some on archons, you win the cost effectiveness battle and roll him

It is always good to have 5-6 banes though so he cant ever blow zeal charge - or his entire army gets 1shot if he misclicks.

If you want to beat zeal/archon, spread creep well (no mobile detection mostly) and just kite him around with GREATER ARMY VALUE of speed roaches. He cant deal with it. As said earlier in the thread, being 50 supply up is irrelevant if his ARMY VALUE is higher than yours. Good luck

Cyro

United Kingdom20318 Posts

October 09 2011 23:14 GMT

#24

On October 10 2011 02:48 peppilepew wrote:
imo you need to add hydras vs zeo archon, there dps destroys everything once they have support units like roaches

I wouldnt do this ever.

Zealots annihilate hydras 1v1, and hydras are more expensive. They cant run, either. Roaches are better simply because they are faster

fdsdfg

United States1251 Posts

October 09 2011 23:16 GMT

#25

On October 10 2011 08:12 Cyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

You don't want to a-move your banelings into a zealot/archon ball - you want to just move through them. This gives two advantages:

1) way more splash damage (since you're not at their front lines)
2) forces the protoss army to waste shots on banes

When both zealots and archons can effectively 2-shot zerglings, the latter is pretty important. Getting those numbers down early is really useful.

I like bane drops too, unless they have blink stalkers. Then it feels like it's never going to work properly.

fusihunter

Australia208 Posts

October 09 2011 23:28 GMT

#26

On October 09 2011 18:13 Lakona wrote:
Fast melee upgrades would be helpful but are not necessary. Do NOT make hydras, they get ripped to shit even worse than roaches against this. Do not make roaches. Do not waste gas on infestors. Just make banelings dude. That is literally all you need to know. MAKE BANELINGS AND WIN GG EZPZ.

First of all, i think burrow is really important, because if he goes templar he probably wont have an obs.

How many banes do you normally have around that time?

I would have thought Hydra made more sense.

They synergise upgrades with the roach, and have greater range than both archons and zeals.

I feel like banes are great but they can be hit and miss, whereas you have a bit more control with the hydras. If you do fend it off, you also have an army, whereas with banes you'd have to resupply.

It also means he kinda has to go robo as a followup, because HT's aren't great against roaches, and Stargate isn't ideal against Hydras. So a spire is next on the shopping list, and you should be ahead if you hold it.

I can see your point, but i'm just wondering if hydras are a bit safer. That does come down to how many banes you have though, and what upgrades you have, +1 attack effect the hits on a zealot?

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

October 10 2011 00:01 GMT

#27

I can't believe so many people are suggesting hydras. Or even mass banelings. Wtf, please don't listen to that garbage advice. Hydras are horrible against chargelot/archon. Yes I understand that roach/hydra does more DPS than just pure roach, but the problem with hydras is that you can't retreat, you get into 1 bad situation and game is over. Roaches are much more versatile.

All you need is mass roach. If you want to be cute, add some infestors, or add some banelings, or add burrow, but really all you need is mass roach.

Carras

Argentina860 Posts

October 10 2011 00:14 GMT

#28

to genericaly defeat the zealot archon pushes , you need roaches , lots of them.. and speed.. if the attack lasts long enough start getting a few hydras.. its key to kite zealots. and to pick some zealots when he retreats or when he is reagrouping..just walk near him and some will charge to you...kill em and go back.. always figth on creep..spine crawlers also help A LOT

lim1017

Canada1278 Posts

October 10 2011 00:21 GMT

#29

I think your missing the main point. making banes/hydra/infestor is not the answer.

The first poster had it right when he said your army was alot weaker (value wise) and you didnt micro properly.

There might be some fancy tricks or secret build that will stomp that composition, but the standard roach ling can do it as well.

You just need to step up your game, and macro better. It will help you get better faster i the long run.

In this case its better if you can win by having 10 more roaches then last game, then if you can win by sneaking in some baneling mines.

HungShark

United States134 Posts

October 10 2011 05:21 GMT

#30

I watched the second replay since that seems to be the most critical of the two. Theoretically, you should have won that game. You were ahead by a base, had map control, and had a huge economic lead. The BIGGEST problem I saw was your lack of an army.

When you first engaged, you had a decent amount of roaches and lings. If you knew that he was going for zealot/archon, why would you get lings after the initial few that are needed for map control and retaking your natural? That was a waste of larva. Those could have been more roaches, which you so desperately needed.

While your injects seemed fine, you just couldn't remax fast enough. A macro hatch or two would have definitely change the outcome. By the time he reached your base, you were floating close to 1000 minerals and 1000 gas. Obviously you were spending as much as you could, but you simply did not have the larva to allow you to spend your money when you needed it.

His upgrades did not really matter. You simply couldn't produce units quick enough.

One other minor thing that could have helped was burrow (and perhaps burrow movement). He had no detection, and the threat of burrow could have either stalled 'til you could get reinforcements, or make him retreat until he got an observer, which would have given you enough time to get infestors ready.

Anything else you could have done would have been iffy. Banelings might have helped, but if there are enough sentries, FFs completely nullify them.

BinxyBrown

United States230 Posts

October 10 2011 05:38 GMT

#31

Engage as close to his side of the map as possible and kite back, good creep spread helps too, since both zealots and archons have less range than roaches you can hit him the whole way to your base while you create units that will be effective, this can also sometimes slow down the push a little as they may miss some warp ins and such.

Chernobyl

Brazil143 Posts

October 11 2011 02:57 GMT

#32

Thanks for the post, I won some games, its realy good!
Replay PvZ diamond vs master:
http://drop.sc/43004

Imo the counter for this is this BO:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274068

Muta + Roaches is a scary counter to this.

*edit!:

2 base Hidra demolish this!!!
Just 2 bases and one macro hatch!!!

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