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Honestly, "just macro better" does not mean "abandon everything for macro. Do the worst possible strategies but with good macro instead" if you lose by strategy, I'm assuming you're talking about allins. Of course you will lose if you go Command center first against 6pool or something silly like that. Maybe you're also talking about builds being countered by others, such as going mutas vs 6gate timing.Whatever the case is, I wouldn't worry about game knowledge at this point. Common sense and your own game sense can pull you through until everyone macros to peak capacity.
You shouldn't be getting worried over having lots of game knowledge without playing well enough for it to matter. It's a bad habit of a lower level player to claim they have incredible game knowledge through watching hours of GSL, and say if they had 100 more apm to support macro they could be in high masters easily. No, at gold league, one base allins are probably the best way to play because it is easiest to macro off of one base and because cheese is hard to stop.
Focus on macro, but just use your common sense. You don't need to learn how to counter certain unit compositions/builds from other people. Just do what you think can deal with it, and macro well doing it.
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Lower league players hate hearing it because they don't want to put in the time to learn it. It's not the flashy or fun part of SC2, so it has the least appeal. They'd rather do a ghost rush with nukes against a Zerg or something. They are probably people who have never had to train for anything in their life and don't understand the concept of basics/fundamentals and how they are the foundation on which you build everything else. If they have trained for a sport or activity, then they are simply ignoring the correlation between that and SC2.
Lower league players hate hearing macro better because it's a broad concept and requires a lot of discipline and practice to learn, and there's no way to learn it other than experience with critical thinking. There's no "just do this" answer, there's no step by step plan, and there isn't anyone else standing over them to push them to learn it. The ones that are self-driven aren't in those leagues having trouble; they've already learned macro to a reasonable degree and are still practicing getting better at it.
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On October 07 2011 07:50 DreamChaser wrote:
There is playing starcraft and then there's playing starcraft choose which one you want to do
playing starcraft can be a real downer at times. i prefer to play starcraft instead. :/
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On October 07 2011 07:57 tehemperorer wrote:
Lower league players hate hearing it because they don't want to put in the time to learn it. It's not the flashy or fun part of SC2, so it has the least appeal. They'd rather do a ghost rush with nukes against a Zerg or something. They are probably people who have never had to train for anything in their life and don't understand the concept of basics/fundamentals and how they are the foundation on which you build everything else. If they have trained for a sport or activity, then they are simply ignoring the correlation between that and SC2.
Lower league players hate hearing macro better because it's a broad concept and requires a lot of discipline and practice to learn, and there's no way to learn it other than experience with critical thinking. There's no "just do this" answer, there's no step by step plan, and there isn't anyone else standing over them to push them to learn it. The ones that are self-driven aren't in those leagues having trouble; they've already learned macro to a reasonable degree and are still practicing getting better at it.
players hate hearing "macro better" because it IS a broad concept. lower players oftern need to work on macro overal, but they dont know what that entails. they post replays to see what they could do better and "macro better" to them means that they should do EVERYTHING better, which is just too overwhelming and unspecific. INSTEAD of saying "macro better" over and over, people should actually watch the replays and be more specific. "you overdroned; you stop producing drones while you engage; your injects suck; you get supply blocked constantly." these are the things that players want to hear when they ask for help, because it gives them something to concentrate on specifically.
you mention he correlation between sports and SC2. would a coach simply tell his player "oh, you just need to do all of the basics better" and not ive him specific things to work on? fuck no, the coach is going to tell the player specific things to focus on next time, and the player will gradually accomplish all of the little things, one at a time. THIS is where the correlation between sports and SC2 stops, because most people in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once"
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 07 2011 08:03 Soulriser wrote:THIS is where the correlation between sports and SC2 stops, because no one in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once"
I feel that I must strongly object to your blatant and reckless mischaracterization of my posting history. Whenever a Terran player posts a replay in the Terran Help Me Thread, I generate a detailed analysis of what he could have done better, including specific macro advice like "have a worker building a depot at all times, and when he becomes idle, you will know it's time to make a new depot" and micro advice for dealing with battles. All this is packaged in 10-15 minute videos in which I provide a detailed verbal analysis of the replay.
It's probably fair to say that some forum posters are unhelpful. It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful. It is both thoroughly false entirely unacceptable to say that all forum posters are unhelpful, though. I am not alone; there are many hard-working forumgoers who tirelessly analyze replays and provide advice to people in the strategy section and help threads, and it is an insult to all of us and all our hard work when you make posts like this.
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On October 07 2011 06:59 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 06:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 07 2011 06:12 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On October 07 2011 06:08 iAmJeffReY wrote:But the frustrating part is sometimes we lose because of wrong STRATEGY. I know this sounds silly to the higher level players out there...."How can you use strategy when u miss injects, are supply blocked, etc." But it does happen....and when it does, we come here asking for advice. But, sometime its hard to get advice, as soon it becomes known, that we are silver/gold players.
The only advice you need is MACRO BETTER. You will win, regardless of the wrong strategy, if you: 1- scout 2- react accordingly 3- macro. One of your two statements is in direct contradiction to the other. Either macro is all you need to win, or it isn't. Its really the same old thing I see over and over. "All you need to do is macro. Oh, except for scouting. And reacting properly. And whatever else you feel like throwing in there". ...Is it not a part of macroing? NO! Read the bloody thread, its full of people saying that good macro is just building lots of workers and ANY units you feel like, within reason. Scouting is not macro. Choosing a unit composition is not macro. If you think macro is just "everything else that isn't micro" then "macro better" is even MORE terrible advice to give, as its far to generic to be in any way useful.
and
No it isn't a part of macro, the fact that you put it under macro is just plain silly. Just like it has been said, you have contradicted yourself pretty badly here and your reply only shows that you, in my eyes, don't have thought any of your words through and have a rather small insight of all the Sc2 gameplay aspects.
Oh right, I don't play at high masters MMR pulling quite a few GMs for a casual gamer. I don't know what macro is... lol crack me up. You know not everyone uses the same definitions. Trust me, I have game sense. I barely even play, and can still hold my own against high masters. So, let's try a new 'you have no gamesense' line, k?
Macro to me involves scouting. What's the point of making units, if you don't make the right ones. I can never miss a depot, and never que a marine... but if he goes collsai vs my marines I'm fucked.
You want to get better? Scout, react, and macro.
Learn it.
edit
Also, when one reaches higher leagues with just massing up your macro skill, you will eventually run into a brick wall of other skilled players which your over-trained macro will not be able to handle on it's own. At that point those players start to look at the other things, micro, build orders, strategies, counters, positioning, timings etc. etc. And starts training those things, right?
Or, you have a good basis to stand on, and can then go onto the next steps of getting better. I got to mid masters EASILY with just good solid macro. My micro is garbage. I have good timings, and good macro, coupled with proper scouting. Very simple combination. The fact people like you come in, and say someone like me is silly, and has no game sense because I include other things under a VAST umbrella that is macro, is hilarious.
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"How can I lose weight?"
"Go to the gym."
"How can I improve at SC?"
"Macro better."
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On October 07 2011 08:10 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 08:03 Soulriser wrote:THIS is where the correlation between sports and SC2 stops, because no one in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once" I feel that I must strongly object to your blatant and reckless mischaracterization of my posting history. Whenever a Terran player posts a replay in the Terran Help Me Thread, I generate a detailed analysis of what he could have done better, including specific macro advice like "have a worker building a depot at all times, and when he becomes idle, you will know it's time to make a new depot" and micro advice for dealing with battles. All this is packaged in 10-15 minute videos in which I provide a detailed verbal analysis of the replay. It's probably fair to say that some forum posters are unhelpful. It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful. It is both thoroughly false entirely unacceptable to say that all forum posters are unhelpful, though. I am not alone; there are many hard-working forumgoers who tirelessly analyze replays and provide advice to people in the strategy section and help threads, and it is an insult to all of us and all our hard work when you make posts like this.
im sorry, i dont believe i quoted you? also, thank you for disregarding the rest of my post that included my main argument. it often accomplishes very little when people have selective hearing/reading when they try and comeback with something.
second, this entire thread is about how the majority of people just get "macro better". you said yourself, just now, "It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful" would you like me to change the term"no one" to "few and far between"? the term 'no one' was used generally, just like 'macro better'. if i was like you i wouldve posted specific names and explained how certain posts were helpful and not helpful.
you=/=every other poster in the forum. my point is it would do people a lot more good if a lot more people said more then "macro better"
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On October 07 2011 07:29 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 07:12 ETisME wrote:
Again, whether to put down a production buildings or what to put down or would it be better to put down an expo, all these are related to macro yet most higher league players here tend to think as long as you keep making workers, units etc, your macro is better. Post above I wrote: + Show Spoiler +Macro is:
- Building workers.
- Have the right saturation of workers shared among all bases (not 24 + 8, but 16 + 16 mining minerals).
- Building units.
- Not queuing units or workers.
- Keeping your production facilities constantly producing, unless you are switching tech.
- Not getting supply blocked.
- Getting the right tech structures (with addons for terrans) at the right time.
- Have the buildings placed in an optimal manner, which varies for each race and for each matchup.
- Getting the right amount of tech structures to support the economy your number of bases support.
- Spend your money.
- Expand at the right time.
- Making sure that your gas and mineral income balance what you intend to do. Don't save 2k minerals and have 0 gas ...
- No matter what you are chosing to make, be it pure marine, or pure hellion / raven, get the right upgrades for the units.
- Keeping energy on queens, nexus, command centers correct (ie: doesn't have to be 0, but if you are letting it build for no reason, you are doing something wrong). Feel free to more stuff that you think is macro. This was just my example in a post above of what I mean when I say macro. I tend to divide the game into three parts: Macro, Micro and scouting / reacting. A lot of people say 'make more workers' simply because it's true for Terran and Protoss ... as long you never get supply blocked, and continue to make workers and expand when you are fully saturated, you WILL reach high plat / diamond without any problem, simply because you are better than other people. For Zerg it's not harder, just slightly different ... but it's the same problem. Lower lvl zergs just don't make enough workers ... The reason why this is the advice people get though ... is quite simple. It works. + Show Spoiler +For myself, currently #30 in masters league EU with some bonus pool, the vast majority of the games I lose, I lose because of bad macro. I can identify a LOT of things I keep doing wrong in the replays when I lose that's simple macro mistakes. Not long ago I fixed two of them, and instantly moved up quite a bit ... and my APM is really low, so it's not like I am microing well either
I would say that expand at right time and getting the right tech are not part of macro but a part of decision making.
Same with your zerg's comment, it is also about decision making rather than macro. Whenever the opponent push out, it could be just killing some creep tumors, faking a pressure, going for a timing push or even just an all-in.
Lower league players tend to get more units to feel safer so that they can drone up a bit more later, higher league players know whether it is a real push, or just a fake pressure (or at least they know better), they also know around how much units are needed to defend against it, thus able to drone a bit more.
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I am a low league player and i know i have to macro better. That's why i don't come to the forums asking for advice when i know I miss supply depots, workers, production cycles, I tunnel vision when I attack, float resources, etc.
Everyone knows what macro better means, but people just want easy solutions....
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 07 2011 08:15 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 08:10 Blazinghand wrote:On October 07 2011 08:03 Soulriser wrote:THIS is where the correlation between sports and SC2 stops, because no one in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once" I feel that I must strongly object to your blatant and reckless mischaracterization of my posting history. Whenever a Terran player posts a replay in the Terran Help Me Thread, I generate a detailed analysis of what he could have done better, including specific macro advice like "have a worker building a depot at all times, and when he becomes idle, you will know it's time to make a new depot" and micro advice for dealing with battles. All this is packaged in 10-15 minute videos in which I provide a detailed verbal analysis of the replay. It's probably fair to say that some forum posters are unhelpful. It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful. It is both thoroughly false entirely unacceptable to say that all forum posters are unhelpful, though. I am not alone; there are many hard-working forumgoers who tirelessly analyze replays and provide advice to people in the strategy section and help threads, and it is an insult to all of us and all our hard work when you make posts like this. im sorry, i dont believe i quoted you? also, thank you for disregarding the rest of my post that included my main argument. it often accomplishes very little when people have selective hearing/reading when they try and comeback with something. second, this entire thread is about how the majority of people just get "macro better". you said yourself, just now, "It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful" would you like me to change the term"no one" to "few and far between"? the term 'no one' was used generally, just like 'macro better'. if i was like you i wouldve posted specific names and explained how certain posts were helpful and not helpful. you=/=every other poster in the forum. my point is it would do people a lot more good if a lot more people said more then "macro better"
I understand that you meant to say "many posters don't provide useful information" and as I said, that's fair to say. It's entirely reasonable to request that people try to be more helpful in the advice they give-- especially if many people give subpar advice. In fact, I'd consider such a request to be actively striving to improve the quality of the TL.net forums, and I welcome such earnest discussion of posting habits.
The part where you say that, and I quote:no one in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once"
you specifically attack me and every other poster who's out there trying to make things better. Some of us put in hours every day to try to help people and really do take a solid look at people's replays and threads. To cast us aside like we're not helping, even only verbally (since it appears you now concede that some people ARE in fact helpful) is actually harming the community. It discourages people from asking for help and demoralizes those of us who try hard to provide it.
So yes, I would like you to change the term to "few and far between" because helpful posters do exist. Your point is ENTIRELY valid insofar as people should be more helpful. However, to include hyperbolic and incorrect language not only undermines your point, it undermines the validity of the efforts of myself and many other helpful posters.
Thank you for understanding. I think we're on the same side here, but I can't not stand up for myself in this sort of situation.
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On October 07 2011 08:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 06:59 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On October 07 2011 06:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 07 2011 06:12 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On October 07 2011 06:08 iAmJeffReY wrote:But the frustrating part is sometimes we lose because of wrong STRATEGY. I know this sounds silly to the higher level players out there...."How can you use strategy when u miss injects, are supply blocked, etc." But it does happen....and when it does, we come here asking for advice. But, sometime its hard to get advice, as soon it becomes known, that we are silver/gold players.
The only advice you need is MACRO BETTER. You will win, regardless of the wrong strategy, if you: 1- scout 2- react accordingly 3- macro. One of your two statements is in direct contradiction to the other. Either macro is all you need to win, or it isn't. Its really the same old thing I see over and over. "All you need to do is macro. Oh, except for scouting. And reacting properly. And whatever else you feel like throwing in there". ...Is it not a part of macroing? NO! Read the bloody thread, its full of people saying that good macro is just building lots of workers and ANY units you feel like, within reason. Scouting is not macro. Choosing a unit composition is not macro. If you think macro is just "everything else that isn't micro" then "macro better" is even MORE terrible advice to give, as its far to generic to be in any way useful. and Show nested quote +No it isn't a part of macro, the fact that you put it under macro is just plain silly. Just like it has been said, you have contradicted yourself pretty badly here and your reply only shows that you, in my eyes, don't have thought any of your words through and have a rather small insight of all the Sc2 gameplay aspects.
Oh right, I don't play at high masters MMR pulling quite a few GMs for a casual gamer. I don't know what macro is... lol crack me up. You know not everyone uses the same definitions. Trust me, I have game sense. I barely even play, and can still hold my own against high masters. So, let's try a new 'you have no gamesense' line, k? Macro to me involves scouting. What's the point of making units, if you don't make the right ones. I can never miss a depot, and never que a marine... but if he goes collsai vs my marines I'm fucked. You want to get better? Scout, react, and macro. Learn it. edit Show nested quote +Also, when one reaches higher leagues with just massing up your macro skill, you will eventually run into a brick wall of other skilled players which your over-trained macro will not be able to handle on it's own. At that point those players start to look at the other things, micro, build orders, strategies, counters, positioning, timings etc. etc. And starts training those things, right?
Or, you have a good basis to stand on, and can then go onto the next steps of getting better. I got to mid masters EASILY with just good solid macro. My micro is garbage. I have good timings, and good macro, coupled with proper scouting. Very simple combination. The fact people like you come in, and say someone like me is silly, and has no game sense because I include other things under a VAST umbrella that is macro, is hilarious.
First off, I find it silly, that doesn't make it a fact. And as I have put at the bottom of my post, you can think of anything I have put forth anyway you like, so I just *shrug* at the fact you find it hilarious.
Now onto what you said, you are using your rank as a way to make your opinion more worthwhile then mine? (without you even knowing what my rank/league is) Really?
Further more macro doesn't involve alot of things you put forth "in my eyes". Perhaps you need to learn how to read, but that does mean that I see macro as something else. I never claimed the fact that you didn't knew what macro is, but clearly see it completely different then my view of macro (and most likely alot of people's view on macro).
Here I feel you'r pretty much saying all needed skills to actually improve your overall game is a part of macro in your eyes (timings, scouting, counters, rightly performed attacks) which in turn gives you the oppurtunity to claim that with a good macro you will do well no matter what, because you put pretty much all aspects under the term "macro"
In this same manner I can say that macro is just a part of a build order with the right adjustments here and there to counter the opponent. With this, disorted view, I can claim that with just perfect build orders you will become better and better and that it's the only thing you will have to train.
See where this is leading?
If not then I will not even attempt to continue this discussion with you as it will obviously go towards nothing good.
Ps, don't hate the player, hate the game. This also applies in a discussion, don't hate me for putting forth my opinion where I even apologise if in any way I have offended/insulted anyone. ^ ^
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I think for low level players or rather new players they need to learn the fundementals like what kills what. If Terran goes Marauder only, something should immediatly pop in your head about what you should do. Should you continue massing out stalkers ? NO! Zealots and immortals.
When all that is in place you need to learn how to scout your opponent all the time. Most bronze, silver people i watch, they fight blindfolded. They just sit in theyre bases and massing out some units without looking at theyre enemy.
RTS games are like chess in realtime while seeing everyones move all the time. When you get to this point then macro is important. You cant win with extreme macro if you are having the wrong units and failed timings.
Im not an expert, just platinum and i struggle with macro to get further. Lost 2 games today where i look at my minerals and it says 1500-2000 minerals. Imagine that converted to an amy and i would have won.
Starcraft 2 is probably the most advanced and difficult multiplayer game ever, thats why is so fun to watch streams of really good players. We all know what it takes ........
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On October 07 2011 08:12 Leargle wrote:
"How can I lose weight?"
"Go to the gym."
"How can I improve at SC?"
"Macro better."
This...the only way to truly improve is to get out there and work hard...you can try fancy diets and pills and something minor might improve but you're not going to get thin until you get up and work hard.
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On October 07 2011 08:24 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 08:15 Soulriser wrote:On October 07 2011 08:10 Blazinghand wrote:On October 07 2011 08:03 Soulriser wrote:THIS is where the correlation between sports and SC2 stops, because no one in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once" I feel that I must strongly object to your blatant and reckless mischaracterization of my posting history. Whenever a Terran player posts a replay in the Terran Help Me Thread, I generate a detailed analysis of what he could have done better, including specific macro advice like "have a worker building a depot at all times, and when he becomes idle, you will know it's time to make a new depot" and micro advice for dealing with battles. All this is packaged in 10-15 minute videos in which I provide a detailed verbal analysis of the replay. It's probably fair to say that some forum posters are unhelpful. It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful. It is both thoroughly false entirely unacceptable to say that all forum posters are unhelpful, though. I am not alone; there are many hard-working forumgoers who tirelessly analyze replays and provide advice to people in the strategy section and help threads, and it is an insult to all of us and all our hard work when you make posts like this. im sorry, i dont believe i quoted you? also, thank you for disregarding the rest of my post that included my main argument. it often accomplishes very little when people have selective hearing/reading when they try and comeback with something. second, this entire thread is about how the majority of people just get "macro better". you said yourself, just now, "It might even be fair to say that many, or perhaps even most forum posters are unhelpful" would you like me to change the term"no one" to "few and far between"? the term 'no one' was used generally, just like 'macro better'. if i was like you i wouldve posted specific names and explained how certain posts were helpful and not helpful. you=/=every other poster in the forum. my point is it would do people a lot more good if a lot more people said more then "macro better" I understand that you meant to say "many posters don't provide useful information" and as I said, that's fair to say. It's entirely reasonable to request that people try to be more helpful in the advice they give-- especially if many people give subpar advice. In fact, I'd consider such a request to be actively striving to improve the quality of the TL.net forums, and I welcome such earnest discussion of posting habits. The part where you say that, and I quote: Show nested quote +no one in forums says anything but 'do all of the basics better, but were not going to try and point out anything in particular. just do everything better all at once" you specifically attack me and every other poster who's out there trying to make things better. Some of us put in hours every day to try to help people and really do take a solid look at people's replays and threads. To cast us aside like we're not helping, even only verbally (since it appears you now concede that some people ARE in fact helpful) is actually harming the community. It discourages people from asking for help and demoralizes those of us who try hard to provide it. So yes, I would like you to change the term to "few and far between" because helpful posters do exist. Your point is ENTIRELY valid insofar as people should be more helpful. To include hyperbolic and incorrect language not only undermines your point, but undermines the validity of the efforts of myself and many other helpful posters. Thank you for understanding. I think we're on the same side here, but I can't not stand up for myself in this sort of situation.
i agree. and i am not attacking you or anyone specifically. threads like this wouldnt exist if more people gave useful advice instead of defaulting to 'macro better'. im supporting the OP in saying that 'macro better" doesnt help anyone if they dont know that macro means, or what to focus on specifically. THAT is the point ive been making for 9 pages: that vague advice gets vague, and generally bad, results from people who follow it.
i am not an english major. next time i will compose a 120 measure string quartet piece in order to emphasize my point.
yes, we are on the same side. and again, if you look through even just this thread, you see much more "macro better" then actual solid advice
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On October 07 2011 08:31 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 08:12 Leargle wrote:
"How can I lose weight?"
"Go to the gym."
"How can I improve at SC?"
"Macro better."
This...the only way to truly improve is to get out there and work hard...you can try fancy diets and pills and something minor might improve but you're not going to get thin until you get up and work hard.
thats correct, to a point. i see people in the gym all the time, and their form is fucking horrible. having bad form is the quickest way to injure yourself or other people. You also get faster results if you have correct form.
you should really think about changing this to:
"How can I lose weight?"
"Go to the gym, and do X type of workout, have a spotter, learn the correct form for lifts before you try and go heavy on them, or youll hurt yourself, etc."
"How can I improve at SC?"
"Macro better; macro consists of x, y, z. You should work on X first, and once you ahve X down, work on Y, then on Z, etc."
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As a low level (Gold) player, I can say that while I find that macro'ing better lets me win more, it's not worth it if the game is just about practicing a routine, and never becomes about anything else.
I was actually getting a little turned off by starcraft recently, but then played the most engaging game I have ever been in. Sure, I was thinking about macro, and trying to improve on it, but what really clicked in my head during the game was more about scouting and map presence; realizing that my opponent had turtled hard, and could only really come at me with Banshees/was only going to come at me with Banshees, I decided to take a few bases and put up some defense to get a resource advantage on him, and in the end I won (with admittedly less than stellar play against a less than stellar opponent). It's moments like those, moments of problem solving, that keep me playing starcraft, and keep making it rewarding. Telling someone to macro more can be like telling them to turn off their brain, and why would someone want to do that?
It's hard to keep trying to play starcraft if you don't take pleasure in it, and just plain winning is not always the best motivator. Good strategy is founded on good macro, but learning some game sense at the same time makes playing much more rewarding.
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You can set up a punch perfectly but if it doesn't have the necessary force you wont knock anybody out.
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So here's my perspective as a very low level player (bronze league, only started playing online about 2 weeks ago). At first I felt just like the OP. I was frustrated when looking for advice and hearing "Just learn to macro better." I thought "I know I need to build a steady supply of workers, avoid supply blocks, keep resources low, ect, ect. That doesn't help me." But when I actually started focusing on just making lots of shit, I started to do better.
More importantly, I've found that some of the other stuff is starting to come to me, without even consciously focusing on it. For instance, I used to try to do all kinds of harass with zealots and would always get stomped because my macro would slip so badly due to divided attention. So finally I was like, "screw it, I'll just focus on staying home and keeping my macro up." Well as I did that and macroing got easier and easier as it took less conscious thought to do so, I suddenly found my self able to send out that pair of zealots to poke around. And, most importantly, it was coming from my own sense of where I was at and what I could afford to send, ect. I wasn't sending out some zealots and a stalker because that's what HuK does, I sent them because it felt right. So I learn the strategic ideas from others, but the actual implementation of that strategy develops more organically.
So long story short, I get the frustration, and I will agree that the mantra of "just macro better" isn't very helpful to a low level player. But at the same time, you can't ignore that improving macro is what you need to do 90% of the time as a low level player.
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On October 07 2011 08:48 whoopsome wrote:
You can set up a punch perfectly but if it doesn't have the necessary force you wont knock anybody out.
Yup, but the same applies to every aspect of a punch.
You can put as much force as you can behind it, but without any speed, finesse, aim it may not do anything at all.
You can also perfectly aim a punch, but lack the force behind it to actually do something.
You can even put every force you have in it, aim it and fire it off quickly, but if the opponent is ready for it, it still might be a wasted punch in the end and you will perhaps end up with a fist in your face as a counter. (sorta say) xD
All in all, macro alone won't do much in any way (my opinion) and saying that it's clearly the basics of all other "skills" in the game is just a matter of opinion, once again.
If you still look at the comparison with throwing a punch, then there are enough martial arts out there that have a main focus on different aspects of a punch to make it do the damage you want.
Wheter that is force, finesse, aim, speed etc., each of those aspects has the potentially hurt someone when looked at alone, but most likely work better when combined.
Now where one wants to lay their focus on is up to them to decide, not up to anyone else to decide for them. That's how I see it and one can apply this as much to Sc2 as to alot of other things that vary on alot of factors. ^ ^
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EPT
