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On October 09 2011 07:00 HeroMystic wrote:This is a post on the first page but I'm gonna reply to it anyway. Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 21:15 RudePlague wrote:
In all reality, people want to play the game and enjoy themselves. You can't just "macro like pro" all of a sudden and jump up a massive level in your play. Yes a player could sit down and grind out a hundred (or probably much more) games on YABOT/Coach AI/Macro or Die until they have perfect macro, but it's not really fun and few players could pull that off. I've tried getting a friend who is new to the game to do that and he just won't because it's not fun.
If they're not aiming to get better, then they shouldn't be asking for advice. Going from Bronze to Diamond takes two things: Good Macro, and a good build order. It can't really get any more clear cut than that.
Also, a good map to practice macro, build order, multitasking all those great mechanics things is "multitasking OBSERVERS". Create the game on battlenet NA server (i dont know if its on other servers).
Theres difficulties ranging from very easy to insane. Very easy can be difficult for people up to platinum and insane is tough for high-master or grandmaster players.
IMO its a fun way to get good mechanics which typically results in better macro ^^
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Honestly, i 100% agree that "macro better" is a valid response.
But I HATE it when i see someone asking for tactical advice and see that.
I don't see why people can't say
"ok, first, macro was a bit off. But also, you attacked just before your upgrades were finished. If you would have waited 10 secs and then attacked you would have done a lot more damage. But mainly focus on your macro, as it's the most important thing at lower leagues."
Everyone's happy. The low leaguers got some sound advice, AS WELL AS being told they need to improve their macro a lot.
I don't see why I can't learn about the game AND improve my macro, just because your too single minded to think that "He's bronze league. He should macro better. this GM league macro'd perfectly and just massed stalkers to Diamond league, so therefore this bronze leaguer should do too."
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On October 09 2011 05:36 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Also if you do a drone scout you sacrifice a big part of your econ advantage because you have exactly enough to use the first spawn larva and afford a queen on time.
11 pool 18 hatch:
49 / 52 supply.
349 minerals.
3 drones making.
1 hatch 55% done with inject.
1 hatch 30% done with inject.
14 pool 15 hatch.
549 minerals.
48 / 52 supply.
3 drones making.
1 hatch 100% done with inject (it just popped, I didn't have time to make drones)
1 hatch 95% done with inject.
That's my testing.
Both examples no extractor taken, no gas mined, gotten 16 drones in main before rallying all drones to expansion, make 4 lings (assumption: you make lings blindly when pool finish, but you got your hatch down without having to kill a pylon.
Making nothing but drones, overlords, 4 lings, 2 queens. At 6:00 neither example have an overlord making.
The point is, 11 pool puts you behind 200 minerals and half a production cycle compared to something like 14 pool 15 hatch (which isn't even among the most economical openings).
Now compare it to something like 15 hatch 15 pool. This puts you behind some in larvae but ...
15 hatch 15 pool
850 minerals.
44 / 52 supply
2 drones making.
1 hatchery 100% done with inject (just popped, no time to make drones)
1 hatchery 95% done with inject.
This basically gives me 300 more minerals in the first 6 minutes, but 4 less larvae. However, I could spend them on a macro hatchery or 2 extra queens ...
So my basic point is that 11 pool 18 hatch is a NOT a good economic opening. It costs you a fair bit of minerals compared to most other viable openings.
But really, don't take my word for it ... just copy all the best zergs in the world, and note what openings they are using. There's a reason for it.
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Well can you really assume you get the hatches down right on time? Even the 14 pool 15 hatch is often denied forcing you to do a queen instead of hatch. This is against protoss who often scout on 9 pylon as opposed to terrans who scout later and make hatch first easy to put down most of the time.
I feel like the reason people don't use 11 overpool at a high level is because you can abuse it with early aggression and set the zerg behind since every larva they get needs to be a drone.
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On October 09 2011 07:33 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Well can you really assume you get the hatches down right on time? Even the 14 pool 15 hatch is often denied forcing you to do a queen instead of hatch. This is against protoss who often scout on 9 pylon as opposed to terrans who scout later and make hatch first easy to put down most of the time.
I feel like the reason people don't use 11 overpool at a high level is because you can abuse it with early aggression and set the zerg behind since every larva they get needs to be a drone.
Uhm, the reason people don't use 11 overpool is because it's not a good opening. It's not economically viable. And if you are blocked, you might as well GG.
You can never assume you get the hatch down on time ... but with 11 / 18 you are putting it down 30 seconds after 14 / 15, so that doesn't really help ...
But hey, it IS safer vs cheese, and it allows you lings out 25-30 seconds earlier for scouting, so I mean, it's a trade off ... I can't see it as worth it in any way though. I tend to think I would be far better off with 1 extra earlier queen to spread creep / defend vs air, or just get faster tech and gas.
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i am a top master and i do the same thing every game. even at that level you can win 100% of games by pure macro play.
also lol at the thought of sc2 being strategy/micro oriented compared to sc1
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Macro is very important and every player struggling in the lower leagues should work on it.
However, even in low leagues like gold and platinum, players will consistently macro perfectly to about ~25-30 supply. If you are frequently getting supply blocked or missing drone production in that early stage of the game, you're playing at a *very* low level. And even in that early period, when consistent macro is a given, there are many ways for a player to lose the game or get far behind. A few examples:
* Terran bunker play. There was a period in which getting bunkered was pretty much standard TvZ. I lost almost all of my TvZs in the early game because I didn't know how to react this. I would scout the bunker and pull drones, but I couldn't make them attack the SCV - I didn't realize that they wouldn't auto-follow it once ordered to attack. I kept trying to A-click on the building SCV and missing it because it moved behind a building. My winrate in TvZ was about 20% because of this, and it had nothing to do with my macro.
* Reacting to a 2-gate from protoss. Early on, I did not know protoss build orders, which meant I didn't know that I needed to react differently to a 2-gate opening than a gate-core opening. I lost a lot of games by having some zealots show up in my base when I only had 2 zerglings. This wasn't because of my macro; I just didn't know that I shouldn't be building so many drones.
* Holding a 2-rax SCV all-in. Again, it's pretty easy to not be floating money or missing drones by the time this hits, but even if you made non-stop lings after your pool popped, you will still lose this every time if you don't know how to engage it properly. If you're running your lings into the SCVs, you will die. If you're not pulling drones, you will die. If you don't have both drones and zerglings go in in synch, you will die. This is all execution, not macro.
* All of early-game ZvZ. It's incredibly easy to lose quickly in the early game even if you are remembering to hit injects and build drones simply because you built a few drones too many, or ran your ling ball into a baneling. In fact, figuring out when to drone in early game ZvZ is an incredibly challenging, punitive, tightrope-walking affair. For a while I actually started winning more games when I stopped droning and just produced non-stop lings.
All of these are very common openings at a low level (some of them are common at a high level as well).
Which leads to another point. For Protoss and Terran, good macro is more or less mechanical. Unless you're hitting a specific timing, you should be building workers non-stop until late in the game, and dropping MULEs/chrono boosting regularly. But for Zerg, good macro is reactive. There is a mechanical element to it (hitting larva injects, spreading creep, dropping hatches at the correct period), but there is also a strategic element to it. To know when to drone, you need to know what your opponent is doing, and when it is safe to drone.
So for a Zerg to be told to macro better is particularly frustrating, because it's basically equivalent to saying "play better." Macroing properly as Zerg is fundamentally intertwined with understanding the game state. If you play in the dark and constantly think your opponent could kill you, you'll wind up under-droned, regardless of how good your mechanics are. When you understand your opponent's timings and how to play safely, then you'll drone better as well.
That's not to say that low-level Zerg don't have mechanical issues as well. I still miss injects and float money sometimes. That definitely needs to be improved and it constitutes a huge portion of how good you are. But there are major stumbling blocks that can occur before the point where a macro advantage kicks in, and players don't need to wait until Masters to stop losing to these things every time.
People who say "all you need is macro" are simply looking at how poor lower-level macro is, without realizing how many *other* things they do better than lower-level players as well. Things like scouting, reacting to enemy build orders, and army engagement. All of those things are *huge* and will lose you games even if you're out-macroing your opponent.
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MACRO BETTER?
Yes, but how? I guess people just wanna hear a little more than the words "macro better and you'll win!". They wanna be told how to macro better. (Maybe ask for examples of some things you should focus on?)
You need macro but everyone wants a shortcut to being the best... Make an extra effort to learn & practice. It is the only way you are going to get better. shitty deal but thems the breaks.
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On October 06 2011 21:23 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 08:56 Saracen wrote:
As an addendum...
In my opinion, the main reason this thread exists is to help you think for yourselves (and hopefully reduce the amount of [H] threads that litter the forums). After all, why ask others for help when you can help yourself?
So, before you make a thread asking why you lost or what you could have done better, make sure you're doing everything you need to be doing first. You may think "only pros do everything consistently" or "I'm only in Gold league, I don't need to do every single thing" or "I may have done some things wrong, but my opponent did too!" This is a terrible mindset, especially in lower leagues, because that's where macro actually makes a huge difference. For the people who try to help you out, it's really frustrating to try to give advice on gameplay when you consistently see little things like getting supply blocked at 26 or not chronoing probes until you have 40 energy or not building enough barracks and then queuing 4 marines on each one. Each one of these "little things" adds up, especially in the early game, and could very well give you a disadvantage that's pretty much impossible to come back from. Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 15:33 Plexa wrote:On February 23 2011 08:56 Saracen wrote:
As an addendum...
In my opinion, the main reason this thread exists is to help you think for yourselves (and hopefully reduce the amount of [H] threads that litter the forums). After all, why ask others for help when you can help yourself?
So, before you make a thread asking why you lost or what you could have done better, make sure you're doing everything you need to be doing first. You may think "only pros do everything consistently" or "I'm only in Gold league, I don't need to do every single thing" or "I may have done some things wrong, but my opponent did too!" This is a terrible mindset, especially in lower leagues, because that's where macro actually makes a huge difference. For the people who try to help you out, it's really frustrating to try to give advice on gameplay when you consistently see little things like getting supply blocked at 26 or not chronoing probes until you have 40 energy or not building enough barracks and then queuing 4 marines on each one. Each one of these "little things" adds up, especially in the early game, and could very well give you a disadvantage that's pretty much impossible to come back from. Somewhat agreed! While Macro'ing properly is definitely important, there is more to the game than just macro. Even if both sides macro'd poorly, so long as the army counts are around equal during battle that is all that matters (or if one side was greatly ahead, and lost). It is usually clear when one player loses because of macro and while 'better macro' would have won an even game, there are many other things which would have also won the game. It might have been better troop positioning, it might have been better micro, it might have been better decision making like countering instead of attacking head on. So while the little things add up, in an even game there are more factors at work than just macro. Also the "macro better" attitude isn't always the most useful attitude to have in the strategy forum. That could be applied to every single level and still be true!! It's an empty truth in this regard. So while the strategy forum can be used to get advice on how to macro better, there are also many other things that you could be learning from there - What unit composition beats what (this really is bronze information, and should be contained in liquipedia) - How to engage battles properly - How to make better decisions in game - How to gauge what your opponent is doing with minimal information Things like refining a build order, having a build order (-.-; ), this is my awesome new build order please rate it!!!!! and whatnot are all examples of bad questions to ask in the strategy forum. Once infinity's guide is out that should help with this though! I'll just leave these here.
Yep. I completely agree with these posts. If you are the type of person who looks for solutions and desires to improve yourself, you will move up the ladder quickly.
Keep playing and when something goes wrong, consult your own replays and ask yourself: Why did I lose? What could I have done better? What did my opponent do that won him/her the game?
It's really that simple to move up. Take it from someone with limited RTS experience, came in late to SC2 in November and is now top 6 master.
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You hate hearing it because your macro is bad.
ask any great NA/EU/SEA player what separates him from the top koreans right now and what will you hear? --mechanics and decision making.
decision making is derived from experience. experience comes from playing more and taking it more seriously; no one can give you any advice to change your attitude on that (besides "play morelol")
so then we're left with just mechanics. think of playing a game of starcraft like it is a piece of art you're putting together. think of mechanics as your ability to create that piece of art. how are you going to paint a masterpiece if you suck at painting?
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On October 09 2011 13:18 Alejandrisha wrote:
You hate hearing it because your macro is bad.
ask any good player what separates them from the top koreans right now and what will you hear? --mechanics and decision making.
decision making is derived from experience. experience comes from playing more and taking it more seriously; no one can give you any advice to change your attitude on that (besides "play morelol")
so then we're left with just mechanics. think of playing a game of starcraft like it is a piece of art you're putting together. think of mechanics as your ability to create that piece of art. how are you going to paint a masterpiece if you suck at painting?
/thread
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Here's the reason why high level players keep telling everyone to focus on their macro: it's one of the hardest parts of SC2 to get right. Anyone can spend a few hours on custom maps and improve their micro significantly. However improving your macro is much more difficult. You have to train not just your fingers but your brain to remember to constantly be thinking not just of the immediate battle or engagement, but of the status of every worker, every building back in your base. It takes many many games to get to a high level.
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You can't learn to macro properly before you learn other skills - it is impossible.
You cant macro properly without a game plan, and game plan = strategy
any good player knows that when they don't have a clear focus their macro turns to slop
hence, low levels players also need a strategy and a focus, otherwise their not going to know what to make, so they wont be able to macro
hence anyone telling low level players they only need macro, and not to think about anything else, is wrong. You might as well tell them they should first practicie using their keyboard without looking and learn to press every button perfectly and quickly like flash before they worry about strategy. It going to take YEARS.
anyone who advocates only macro is the key to improvement fail to understand that lower players lack the micro, macro and knowledge to be able to use any units effectively no matter how many they make.
An artist wouldn't learn to use his paint brush by repeatedly literally painting dog shit until he can use his brush properly. All skills are learned together and rely on eachother for maximum improvement.
i think giving crappy players simple strategies to execute is far more effective then simply telling them to macro better, as at least they will have some focus. It also makes the game more interesting for them and gives them a clear goal. Macro comes with practice. You can't build it without building anything else.
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On October 09 2011 13:32 Hectic wrote:
You can't learn to macro properly before you learn other skills - it is impossible.
You cant macro properly without a game plan, and game plan = strategy
any good player knows that when they don't have a clear focus their macro turns to slop
hence, low levels players also need a strategy and a focus, otherwise their not going to know what to make, so they wont be able to macro
hence anyone telling low level players they only need macro, and not to think about anything else, is wrong.
anyone who advocates only macro is the key to improvement fail to understand that lower players lack the micro, macro and knowledge to be able to use any units effectively no matter how many they make.
An artist wouldn't learn to use his paint brush by repeatedly literally painting dog shit until he can use his brush properly. All skills are learned together and rely on eachother for maximum improvement.
i think giving crappy players simple strategies to execute is far more effective then simply telling them to macro better, as at least they will have some focus. It also makes the game more interesting for them and gives them a clear goal. Macro comes with practice. You can't build it without building anything else.
They don't need to post help threads to learn simple strategies, there is liquipedia and a million guide threads for that.
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On October 09 2011 13:32 Hectic wrote:
You can't learn to macro properly before you learn other skills - it is impossible.
You cant macro properly without a game plan, and game plan = strategy
any good player knows that when they don't have a clear focus their macro turns to slop
hence, low levels players also need a strategy and a focus, otherwise their not going to know what to make, so they wont be able to macro
hence anyone telling low level players they only need macro, and not to think about anything else, is wrong.
anyone who advocates only macro is the key to improvement fail to understand that lower players lack the micro, macro and knowledge to be able to use any units effectively no matter how many they make.
An artist wouldn't learn to use his paint brush by repeatedly literally painting dog shit until he can use his brush properly. All skills are learned together and rely on eachother for maximum improvement.
i think giving crappy players simple strategies to execute is far more effective then simply telling them to macro better, as at least they will have some focus. It also makes the game more interesting for them and gives them a clear goal. Macro comes with practice. You can't build it without building anything else.
i just think that ignoring macro flaws in low level players does anything to help them. a shitty build with good execution and efficient spending trumps a good build that misses a pylon or two. basically you are saying that every new player needs to be coddled and coached rather than having the ability to try to model the timings/builds of professional players and learning macro by running dry runs to smooth out execution. you need to do your homework before you attempt to learn the nuances and concept of "strategy" in lecture
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yeah im saying they need a build and a strategy so they can practice their damn macro
how are you going to macro when you dont even know what the hell to do>?
How can you do an effeicient build order, when you dont know whcih build order to use, because you get killed by something retarded every game?
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On October 09 2011 13:32 Hectic wrote:
You can't learn to macro properly before you learn other skills - it is impossible.
You cant macro properly without a game plan, and game plan = strategy
any good player knows that when they don't have a clear focus their macro turns to slop
hence, low levels players also need a strategy and a focus, otherwise their not going to know what to make, so they wont be able to macro
hence anyone telling low level players they only need macro, and not to think about anything else, is wrong. You might as well tell them they should first practicie using their keyboard without looking and learn to press every button perfectly and quickly like flash before they worry about strategy. It going to take YEARS.
anyone who advocates only macro is the key to improvement fail to understand that lower players lack the micro, macro and knowledge to be able to use any units effectively no matter how many they make.
An artist wouldn't learn to use his paint brush by repeatedly literally painting dog shit until he can use his brush properly. All skills are learned together and rely on eachother for maximum improvement.
i think giving crappy players simple strategies to execute is far more effective then simply telling them to macro better, as at least they will have some focus. It also makes the game more interesting for them and gives them a clear goal. Macro comes with practice. You can't build it without building anything else.
i wouldn't use the term "strategy" here. if you can't grasp the entire breadth of a "strategy" then why make attempts at it when you have no idea what you are doing. use the term "build" instead; if they improve their ability to execute the build, then they have improved implicitly in their macro, and they are getting better.
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No, i don't mean build oerder, i mean strategy.
for example: in ZVZ i might advise my crappy friend to try and use a defensive opening build order, while they aim for a 2 base roach push with +1 attack and speed to finish the game
that is the strategy, and now they know what the hell they are trying to achieve, and now they can practice it, even if it's not the best strategy.
Now they can work on, or find a build order to achieve this strategy, and improve their macro att he same time
if i didnt give them this focus, or they didnt find their own focus, they wouldnt know what to practice and hence there would be no opportunity to refine 'macro'.
im arguing this, because i have helped several players go from 0 RTS experience to daimond level player, and i know for a fact that only telling someone to make their macro better makes them feel shitty and unmotivated because they still don't have a game plan.
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If you're in bronze, you should just practice 1-base all-ins.
Seriously, not even high masters // GM's can do 1-base all-ins PERFECTLY.
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8 or so months ago koreans were constantly cheesing each other out in gsl and people were praising their macro. This happened (except for possibly Artosis). Strategy matters at all levels. Boxer won tournaments with bunker rushes sometimes, while using inferior macro to players such as Nada at slightly later dates. Pro-level players have been improving their macro as this game gets older.
Lower leagues are often similarily lagging behind chronologically to current top level macro and games are decided on strategy. "Macro better." is of course the best and theoretically simplist way of answering many low-level questions. But often when players are asking for advice it is so they can increase their understanding by using the TL community that contains people strategically ahead of them. They can't use that forum to improve their mechanics, they are using the forum to increase knowledge, ideally. Obviously only practice can increase mechanics.
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EPT
